Kennwood or fusion?
kenwood 1000 watt sub or a fusion 300 watt sub?

i know nuffin bout watts :redface: and stuff if someone can help out and giv me a bit of a background on watts much apreciated

Boths are 100 ucks btw

I aint that great but Max watt or Peak is how much wattage (power) you can give them before they give you greif. RMWS and all is their recomended power, to perform optimumly. Sometimes cheap ones have high Peak but low RMS. You know you need an amp to power them too hey?

wait....sub or amp here?
got links? a bit more info would be usefull

I aint that great but Max watt or Peak is how much wattage (power) you can give them before they give you greif. RMWS and all is their recomended power, to perform optimumly. Sometimes cheap ones have high Peak but low RMS. You know you need an amp to power them too hey?


i know i need an amp :nuts: i seen them in catalogue 2day both of them and was wonderin if they good and whichh one to get

']wait....sub or amp here?
got links? a bit more info would be usefull

Doubt its a 1000w amp for $100

well, for hundred bucks dont expect anything great, i personally wouldnt touch them with a 10 foot pole, but just to clear things up, peak is what you can give it in short bursts, so it might be able to take 1000 watts for no more than 1 second and then kapow!! rms (root means square) or nominal as its sometimes called is the max they can take all day everyday and keep on keeping on, but if yur looking around that price range id go for some pioneer tsw-306c's bit cheaper and they go hard for what you pay

well, for hundred bucks dont expect anything great, i personally wouldnt touch them with a 10 foot pole, but just to clear things up, peak is what you can give it in short bursts, so it might be able to take 1000 watts for no more than 1 second and then kapow!! rms (root means square) or nominal as its sometimes called is the max they can take all day everyday and keep on keeping on, but if yur looking around that price range id go for some pioneer tsw-306c's bit cheaper and they go hard for what you pay
That's not entirely accurate. While that may be the case for some speakers, that's not what they mean.
Watts max is the MOST power the speaker will produce a certain frequency.
Watts RMS is the AVERAGE of all frequencies that speaker produces.
So for eg. a sub has 1000w max, but 300wrms. And say it can produce frequencies between 50hz and 500hz. That 1000wmax could be say, 75hz, but the 300wrms means that the maximum power output for every frequency between 50-500 is averaged to 300. So it's usually safe to match rms values, but if you match peak, you have no idea what frequency you're matching as the cheaper brands barely ever give you a power graph (which will show you the max freq. with all the other frequenices showing the rms value). Eg. your subs max watts is 1000w, which might be freq of 100hz, but the amps max is 200hz and 1000w, which your sub can only go to 500w. Which means you willl destroy the speaker if you go over half volume on the amp.
This is just an example, it get's alot more complicated with full range speakers (which is why it's alot easier to get a higher RMS value with subs than it is for full range speakers).
So in theory you could run a 100wmax amp and 100wmax speakers flat out all day IF they're power graphs were identical, though that would be extremely difficult.

I'm not saying you didn't know the above, just clarifying it for everyone else :).

As for the original post, i wouldn't touch kenwood subs, they sound horrible. Never heard of fusion before, but probably a cheap sub as well? For $100 you can do alot better!

That's not entirely accurate. While that may be the case for some speakers, that's not what they mean.
Watts max is the MOST power the speaker will produce a certain frequency.
Watts RMS is the AVERAGE of all frequencies that speaker produces.
So for eg. a sub has 1000w max, but 300wrms. And say it can produce frequencies between 50hz and 500hz. That 1000wmax could be say, 75hz, but the 300wrms means that the maximum power output for every frequency between 50-500 is 300. So it's usually safe to match rms values, but if you match peak, you have no idea what frequency you're matching as the cheaper brands barely ever give you a power graph (which will show you the max freq. with all the other frequenices showing the rms value). Eg. your subs max watts is 1000w, which might be freq of 100hz, but the amps max is 200hz and 1000w, which your sub can only go to 500w. Which means you willl destroy the speaker if you go over half volume on the amp.
This is just an example, it get's alot more complicated with full range speakers (which is why it's alot easier to get a higher RMS value with subs than it is for full range speakers).

I'm not saying you didn't know the above, just clarifying it for everyone else :).

As for the original post, i wouldn't touch kenwood subs, they sound horrible. Never heard of fusion before, but probably a cheap sub as well? For $100 you can do alot better!
Helped me!

Just to add some more information to what maddog has said, there is also another form of power measurement known as PMPO, this means "Peak Music Power Output" or "Peak Momentary Power Output". In laymens terms, a marketing gimmic. In a nut shell PMPO is the maximum the amp can produce in ideal conditions with 100% efficency for a VERY short duration for example the 1200 watt boss amps you see.

The main reason PEAK and MAX are unreliable is how you measure it. There are many ways to skin a cat. The reason why peak is used is marketing. RMS is more reliable but not fool proof.

You can over drive speakers to an extent with a clean source and they'll just distort. Most speaker deaths are caused by clipping which removes the peaks of the waves an replaces them with flat tops. Clipping happens when you over drive your amp, normally by having the gains set wrong.

Amps under normal loads (music and the like) will never produce their max rms values. Only a test tone or a sine wave will produce max power from the amp.

get the kenwoods, i have them.
the fusion is aparently very inefficiant

That's not entirely accurate. While that may be the case for some speakers, that's not what they mean.
Watts max is the MOST power the speaker will produce a certain frequency.
Watts RMS is the AVERAGE of all frequencies that speaker produces.
So for eg. a sub has 1000w max, but 300wrms. And say it can produce frequencies between 50hz and 500hz. That 1000wmax could be say, 75hz, but the 300wrms means that the maximum power output for every frequency between 50-500 is averaged to 300. So it's usually safe to match rms values, but if you match peak, you have no idea what frequency you're matching as the cheaper brands barely ever give you a power graph (which will show you the max freq. with all the other frequenices showing the rms value). Eg. your subs max watts is 1000w, which might be freq of 100hz, but the amps max is 200hz and 1000w, which your sub can only go to 500w. Which means you willl destroy the speaker if you go over half volume on the amp.
This is just an example, it get's alot more complicated with full range speakers (which is why it's alot easier to get a higher RMS value with subs than it is for full range speakers).
So in theory you could run a 100wmax amp and 100wmax speakers flat out all day IF they're power graphs were identical, though that would be extremely difficult.

I'm not saying you didn't know the above, just clarifying it for everyone else :).

As for the original post, i wouldn't touch kenwood subs, they sound horrible. Never heard of fusion before, but probably a cheap sub as well? For $100 you can do alot better!
Guys if you dont know an answer that's fine, but garbage like this doesnt help anyone. None of the above is true, and it shows a very strong misunderstanding between power, power handling and decibels(sound intensity). In fact quite possibly the worst explanation I have ever seen in my entire life and the life of my father before me.:nuts:

It doesnt clarify anything and only serves to add 1 to the post count. Leaving people misinformed.

A 1000 watt sub will generally be referring to max power handling which means this sub can take 1000 watts of power before it reaches its thermal/mechanical limitation and the voice coil melts. SPEAKERS DONT PRODUCE WATTS. In reality this figure can be disregarded as for actual real world power handling the only figure to look at is watts RMS. This refers to how much power the driver can take for an extended period of time.

At this pricepoint power handling is irrelevent. A 10000w rms sub wont sound any louder than a 100w rms sub using the same power. If you want loudness then you need to factor in how much clean power you have at your finger tips (usually how much W rms your amp produces at the load of the sub(eg 4 ohms)) and as long as this is within the
thermal limitations of the sub (or as long as you have set your gains sensibly). Then the important thing to look at is the efficiency of the sub. ie how loud will the sub get with a certain amount of power.


Peace

Tim

i have dule 12" fusion power plants and they always seem to suprise everyone at how much they do pump.but i dont think there the ones your looking at .bottom range fusion is ment to be like sony nothing great same with bottom range kenwood.you would be better off saving up alittle more or waiting for your tax return and getting something decent as a few mounths down the track you will regret wasting money on an impulse buy when u could of just waited and got something good something very impressive.i think the bigest rule i have learnt so far with car auido is do it rigth the first time

The Red Sony pentagonial subs are the best for about $120 for a 12" if you are buying subwoofers in that price bracket.

You can get an entry level Crossfire DB for around $170, or even go for the Jaycar 10" which will cop 200wrms or more. If you are buying a cheaper sub... I'd suggest going for a better quality 10" rather than an entry level 12". Kenwoods seem pretty good value for money, but personally I'd never buy Pioneer/Kenwood/JVC, Sony is boredline... I've had some good Sony stuff but yea, I've moved up in the world of car audio. Whatever you do, the internet is the best place for reviews of different subwoofers, don't listen to anyone trying to sell you stuff in the car audio world, especially from places like Strathfield and the like...

Guys if you dont know an answer that's fine, but garbage like this doesnt help anyone. None of the above is true, and it shows a very strong misunderstanding between power, power handling and decibels(sound intensity). In fact quite possibly the worst explanation I have ever seen in my entire life and the life of my father before me.:nuts:

It doesnt clarify anything and only serves to add 1 to the post count. Leaving people misinformed.

A 1000 watt sub will generally be referring to max power handling which means this sub can take 1000 watts of power before it reaches its thermal/mechanical limitation and the voice coil melts. SPEAKERS DONT PRODUCE WATTS. In reality this figure can be disregarded as for actual real world power handling the only figure to look at is watts RMS. This refers to how much power the driver can take for an extended period of time.

At this pricepoint power handling is irrelevent. A 10000w rms sub wont sound any louder than a 100w rms sub using the same power. If you want loudness then you need to factor in how much clean power you have at your finger tips (usually how much W rms your amp produces at the load of the sub(eg 4 ohms)) and as long as this is within the
thermal limitations of the sub (or as long as you have set your gains sensibly). Then the important thing to look at is the efficiency of the sub. ie how loud will the sub get with a certain amount of power.


Peace

Tim
I never said more power = more volume, i know there are ALOT of variables. My post was just so they could have a basic understanding, sure in the real world you can disregard max power figures.
And from my understanding the reason WHY speakers can take RMS all day and only peak for a short period of time is that if you run them at the rms value you will get next to no clipping (Again in a "perfect" world). Whereas if you were to run at max volume, you have no idea what freq. that maximum is (with cheap speakers/amps anyway).
Please explain in detail if i'm wrong, would love to clarify this and tell my dad he's wrong (he's been an electronics technician for 40 years, thinks he knows everything :P).

The Red Sony pentagonial subs are the best for about $120 for a 12" if you are buying subwoofers in that price bracket.
Sony pentagonial subs are rubbish, absolute rubbish! I haven't heard a single one sound good and i've heard them on 4 different amps all rated at around the same power as the sub. Sony's older stuff sounded alot better...

I never said more power = more volume, i know there are ALOT of variables. My post was just so they could have a basic understanding, sure in the real world you can disregard max power figures.
And from my understanding the reason WHY speakers can take RMS all day and only peak for a short period of time is that if you run them at the rms value you will get next to no clipping (Again in a "perfect" world). Whereas if you were to run at max volume, you have no idea what freq. that maximum is (with cheap speakers/amps anyway).

The post does not give a basic understanding, it gives an in-depth misunderstanding.

Firstly what maximum frequency are you talking about? Explain what you mean by this.

A speaker reproduces different frequencies. It is a stupid device that only does what you tell it to do. As an AC current enters the voice coil it exerts a force on the cone, as the AC current changes polarity this force reverses and pushes the cone in and out. This is all a speaker does. If you ask it to do more ie give it more power then it will do more until you reach the physical limitations of the driver and it blows, or the cone surround rips out/wires fuse together.The charts you spoke of previously are frequency response charts - Not power handling charts. Yes a speaker will have a slightly different dB output across its frequency range, as will an amp. But I think you are mistaking terms like peak in frequency response with a peak in a sub boxes port which creates a much larger peak in response. And I think you are also mistaking power in watts with dB ie the Decibel (sound intensity), and I have no idea what statements like these are on about.

"amps max is 200hz and 1000w"No amp would have a max frequency of 200 hz. Maybe 40 000 hz??

"Watts max is the MOST power the speaker will produce a certain frequency." Speakers dont produce power. Power goes in in the form of Watts in an AC wave and is converted into movement. This produces pressure waves which produces dB's ie SOUND not power.

"Watts RMS is the AVERAGE of all frequencies that speaker produces."This is absurd; if a speaker can produce frequencies between 50hz and 10 000 hz then according to what you are sayin it's Watts RMS rating would be 5000hz :nuts:
Watts RMS is the amount of continuous power that the drivers voice coil can handle without failure.

More power generally does = more decibels. BUT SPEAKERS DONT MAKE WATTS! And a 3000 w max power rating does not mean this speaker has more power, it means it can handle more power before it reaches the physical limits of the motor and cone.

The post does not give a basic understanding, it gives an in-depth misunderstanding.

Firstly what maximum frequency are you talking about? Explain what you mean by this.

A speaker reproduces different frequencies. It is a stupid device that only does what you tell it to do. As an AC current enters the voice coil it exerts a force on the cone, as the AC current changes polarity this force reverses and pushes the cone in and out. This is all a speaker does. If you ask it to do more ie give it more power then it will do more until you reach the physical limitations of the driver and it blows, or the cone surround rips out/wires fuse together.The charts you spoke of previously are frequency response charts - Not power handling charts. Yes a speaker will have a slightly different dB output across its frequency range, as will an amp. But I think you are mistaking terms like peak in frequency response with a peak in a sub boxes port which creates a much larger peak in response. And I think you are also mistaking power in watts with dB ie the Decibel (sound intensity), and I have no idea what statements like these are on about.
No amp would have a max frequency of 200 hz. Maybe 40 000 hz??
Speakers dont produce power. Power goes in in the form of Watts in an AC wave and is converted into movement. This produces pressure waves which produces dB's ie SOUND not power.
This is absurd; if a speaker can produce frequencies between 50hz and 10 000 hz then according to what you are sayin it's Watts RMS rating would be 5000hz :nuts:
Watts RMS is the amount of continuous power that the drivers voice coil can handle without failure.

More power generally does = more decibels. BUT SPEAKERS DONT MAKE WATTS! And a 3000 w max power rating does not mean this speaker has more power, it means it can handle more power before it reaches the physical limits of the motor and cone.
1)Maximum frequency = the point on the output graph where the most power is produced on the amp, or the most sound is produced on the speaker. Sorry if i didn't make this clear :(.
2) Up-market speakers will give you a response graph like you mentioned, i thought that this tied in with the output graph the amp produced and in an ideal world, you'd want these 2 to be as close to the same as possible.
3)Again when i said maximum freq. of the amp i meant the frequency outputting the most power, and watts RMS is the average PEAK POWER/sound (or could even be average RMS (.707*peak)) accross the frequency range that amp/speaker produces.


To determine a speaker's power handling, one needs to subject it to a power test. This consists of feeding the speaker with a test signal, typically some kind of noise signal with controlled dynamics, for a given amount of time, normally ranging from 2 to 100 hours.

The test signal is commonly some form of pink noise. Pink noise is a random signal that shows the same energy in all frequency bands. This signal is not constant in time, but possesses some degree of dynamics. Pink noise allows us to perform tests were the speaker is stressed thermally as well as mechanically.

The dynamics of a signal are expressed in the form of the crest factor. This is determined by the ratio of the peaks (crests) to the average level of the signal. The graph below shows a 6 dB crest factor signal, i.e. one that has peaks which are 6 dB louder than the average level. This is equivalent to a 2:1 ratio between the peak and RMS voltages, which corresponds to a 4:1 ratio between peak and average ("RMS") power, since power calculations are based on voltage squared. These dynamics are commonly specified by international standards.
http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/temas/aguante1.gif

I don't want to be in the firing line but I have to agree with Tim on this one.

I don't want to be in the firing line but I have to agree with Tim on this one.
lol it's ok mate i'm just trying to make sense of it all.

After thinking about it some more, Tim if i were to pump 500wrms of a signal at say, 100hz into a 1inch tweeter rated at 500wrms, that would mean the tweeter could handle it fine?

lol it's ok mate i'm just trying to make sense of it all.

After thinking about it some more, Tim if i were to pump 500wrms of a signal at say, 100hz into a 1inch tweeter rated at 500wrms, that would mean the tweeter could handle it fine?

So long as the tweeter could reproduce the frequency then yes, but good luck finding a 1 inch tweeter at 500WRMS.

So long as the tweeter could reproduce the frequency then yes, but good luck finding a 1 inch tweeter at 500WRMS.
And what would happen it couldn't produce that particular frequency or that freq. at that volume?

Probably distort.

if i were to pump 500wrms of a signal at say, 100hz into a 1inch tweeter rated at 500wrms, that would mean the tweeter could handle it fine?
No, as no tweeter can reproduce as low as 100 hz. Good tweeters can get down to just below 1000 hz but you still wouldnt play them this low for daily driving.

If a tweeter is rated at 500 w rms (which is a lot of power) then this means that at the rated crossover point; say 3000hz 12db/oct then the tweeter can handle 500w rms of pink noise.

My supremos for example can handle 220 watts RMS with a 2200hz crossover at 12 db. If I change the slope of the crossover to 6 db then the power handling reduces down to 120 w rms. Same if i were to drop the crossover point down to say 1000 hz.

You don't need to match an amps output curve to a speakers output curve as ideally the two should be flat. Just ignore power output and find the speakers you like and give them enough clean power to get to the listening level you want. You can run a 100 w sub with a 1000 w RMS monoblock and as long as you set the gains right the extra headroom will only give you benefits as your amp isnt working as hard as a 100 w rms amp at full power.

Think of it like a car, you only really need a car that can drive at 120 kmph, but if this was the top speed of the car then it will be putting a lot of stress on the engine at this speed. Instead we have cars that can go at 200 kmph even though we never need to drive at this speed. As it means that at 120 kmph the car's engine isnt stressed.

i totally aggree with tim on this one
there is so much confusion to power ratings
if anyone wants to read a good article on the practise of power ratings give this document a look into, i found it extremely interesting

http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/misc/rmspower.htm

The only rating i ever go off for an amplifier power rating for car audio is Continuous average output power 20-20,000Hz (pink noise) with no more than 0.5% distortion (at the extreme most for average sound systems) at 12.5volts (which is the voltage level of a car battery under load while engine is turned off) can even be as low as 11volts!

For speakers i look for the continuous average input power from the intended frequency range (for instance a sub 20-100hz) midwoofer 80-3000 tweeter 2,000-22,000hz
And then it changed again if you have a midrange aswel,
Also the other mis conception people seem to forget are efficiency ratings of speakers are extremely inportant.

Iv seen people match a 96dB 1w/1m tweeters with a woofer of 90dB at 1w/1m (every 3db difference at the same power equals twice the intensity of the output) they had them both running off the same power and the same gains and was wondering why the tweeters were so loud compaired to their woofers.

ah well thats my speil any more questions just post