I was out at Whiteline today (theyre one of my customers, im a computer techie) and the owner said to me, mate you want a bigger sway bar for your Ralliart? I said yes of course ..So he starts to organise it to be pulled from the shelf

Then I open my big mouth.....

I asked him what i should do next.. He asked me what wheel and tyre package i have.. I said 20s with nankangs... he said in that case the biggest upgrade you can do to your car right now is go buy some 18" wheels and some decent rubber... then i asked him how bad for handling is having compressed springs.. He said.. very AND in that case there is no way im going to give you a bigger rear sway bar if you have compressed springs..

He said that car, as it is, would already suffer from a bit of Lift off Oversteer.. Compressed springs and a bigger rear sway bar would make the lift off oversteer dangerous in the right (or should i say wrong) circumstance because the compressed springs take away so much of the suspension travel...He said he wouldnt be suprised if i was able to lift the rear inside wheel if i was to move to that setup..


He said go get some more sensible size wheels and good tyres, put some springs in with no more than a 30mm drop and come back and see him... I kinda already thought this was the case but it was clarified by Mr Whiteline himself today......

So real low magnas and huge wheels are very bad for handling which im sure is no news to alot of AMC ppl

But it just won't look the same without the slam-age and 20s :D

Thats pretty much why I still have 17s and only a 30mm drop.
Also after fitting a strut brace (got rid of some of the vagueness during hard cornering), front camber pins (set to -1.0 degree, reduced under steer, especially on turn in) and a 22mm (adjustable) rear sway bar (had non stock, exec model) witch new ables the car to corner so much harder is surprising. The car now handles very well for a big FWD. :P

Well to be honest i always thought the people who got 19's/20's and dumped their magnas on their ars3 wouldn't be worried about handling....more for show.

Well we already knew that, Bridgstone told me anything lower then 45profile or larger then 17" rim approx, will result in handling going backwards.
Thank god i am sitting on 17's with 45 rubber and only King lows (30mm drop)

Well we already knew that, Bridgstone told me anything lower then 45profile or larger then 17" rim approx, will result in handling going backwards.
Thank god i am sitting on 17's with 45 rubber and only King lows (30mm drop)
copy cat :P.

Well to be honest i always thought the people who got 19's/20's and dumped their magnas on their ars3 wouldn't be worried about handling....more for show.


Yeah your right i dont care about handing that much... I mean even though he told me to get some 18s and raise it im 100% not doing that..much prefer it to look hot than handle perfect...

Guess i was more suprised how much worse it probably is than stock standard

None of that surprises me. The benefit you get from a stiffer rear bar is from sacrificing some rear grip to make the car's handling more balanced. With really stiff springs and ****ty tyres (sorry Nankang:confused:) you've already sacrificed quite a bit of grip.
What whiteline said makes perfect sense, and it's good to see they're looking out for your safety rather than blindly trying to sell you their product. I'm quite impressed with that.
In the end it all depends what you want from your car when you begin to modify it. You need to have a goal. For some that will be making it perform better, some will be after pure looks and pimpage, and for others it will be a compromise of both.
In any case, you need to do your research before hand and find out how these mods are going to affect your car, and whether you are happy to put up with it or if it's even legal. This seems to be a perfect example of why certain levels of modification are illegal or require engineer's certification.
There is a lesson here to be learned for anyone considering modifying there car I think. Do your homework! Some mods can be downright dangerous.

Thanks for posting Gremlin. That's the sort of info some people just wouldn't get otherwise. And kudos to whiteline.:D

Guess i was more suprised how much worse it probably is than stock standard
You were seriously suprised at how bad your car would handle?

rofl..

Come on man. Compressed springs, tyres thinner than a libra pad (nankangs aswell). What do you expect?

None of that surprises me. The benefit you get from a stiffer rear bar is from sacrificing some rear grip to make the car's handling more balanced. With really stiff springs and ****ty tyres (sorry Nankang:confused:) you've already sacrificed quite a bit of grip.
What whiteline said makes perfect sense, and it's good to see they're looking out for your safety rather than blindly trying to sell you their product. I'm quite impressed with that.
In the end it all depends what you want from your car when you begin to modify it. You need to have a goal. For some that will be making it perform better, some will be after pure looks and pimpage, and for others it will be a compromise of both.
In any case, you need to do your research before hand and find out how these mods are going to affect your car, and whether you are happy to put up with it or if it's even legal. This seems to be a perfect example of why certain levels of modification are illegal or require engineer's certification.
There is a lesson here to be learned for anyone considering modifying there car I think. Do your homework! Some mods can be downright dangerous.

Thanks for posting Gremlin. That's the sort of info some people just wouldn't get otherwise. And kudos to whiteline.:D


:stoopid:

my car is lower with 19's and i think my car is better in the corners.

although im not really low.

You have to remember that superlows are rubbish springs, even lows are really just to get the car looking low but at least they are stiffer than superlows.

Compressing springs will keep the std spring rate, or slightly raise it, which means that you will be very low BUT still have soft springs causing the car to roll just as much.

Really low cars have to have firm/expencive suspension and 0 flex in the chassis before they handle better than just a std sports model tuned setup.

You were seriously suprised at how bad your car would handle?

rofl..

Come on man. Compressed springs, tyres thinner than a libra pad (nankangs aswell). What do you expect?

Well to be honest as far as grip goes the 20s leave the 17" P6000s for dead, in a straight line.. I cant flatten first gear with 20s and absolutly no wheel spin whatsoever whereas with the 17s/P6000s i can barely use first gear and 2nd gear spins quite a bit. and before anyone says it, the P6000s have done 3000kms so they are like new....

So therefore i was kinda thinking the 20s would help with grip overall not make it so much worse than what ppl are saying.. i dont chuck my car around much so i cant comment on how the 17s/P6000s grip while cornering, compared to the 20s/Nankangs...

Just to clarify im not worried about anyone of this..as i said i dont chuck my car around much so it doesnt bother me... and its not dangerous, believe me... ive done silly things at very high speed and it turns, stops etc amazingly well...

i no the 20s and my ride height are not legal but i love it .. and im also happy with how the car handles.. this is more just info for ppl who want theyre car to handle really well and plan to come down the path i already have.. all im saying is dont :) ..either look awesome or handle awesome, cant have both

I remember reading that P6000's weren't really that crash hot. More paying for the name with those one's and they didn't really perform that well. That was from the wheels and motor tyre tests a couple of years ago. They may have improved since.:confused:

I remember reading that P6000's weren't really that crash hot. More paying for the name with those one's and they didn't really perform that well. That was from the wheels and motor tyre tests a couple of years ago. They may have improved since.:confused:

Ah well that probably explains why Motors front cover read "We test drive the tyre shreading Ralliart" when they first drove them.. haha bloody P6000s were at fault for that!! lol lol

Well to be honest as far as grip goes the 20s leave the 17" P6000s for dead, in a straight line.. I cant flatten first gear with 20s and absolutly no wheel spin whatsoever whereas with the 17s/P6000s i can barely use first gear and 2nd gear spins quite a bit. and before anyone says it, the P6000s have done 3000kms so they are like new....

So therefore i was kinda thinking the 20s would help with grip overall not make it so much worse than what ppl are saying.. i dont chuck my car around much so i cant comment on how the 17s/P6000s grip while cornering, compared to the 20s/Nankangs...


i had same thing, P6000's were crap couldn't get traction off the line at all. although i think they may have gone better around corners only slighly better, but then i got coilovers so, i can't really remember also i cant say the rubber i got now isn't as good as the p6000's i would need to go from 17" P6000's to 19" P6000's to get the best idea of the difference it makes, it may well be the P6000's were better cornering tyre than what i got now, an nothing to do with wheel size

i no the 20s and my ride height are not legal but i love it .. and im also happy with how the car handles.
I'm with you there Chris!!!! If i want my car to handle well, i'll chuck my 18's back on. I rarely drive like a twat with 20's for all the known and above reasons.

more lift off oversteer sounds like a bit of fun, i might go dump the FWD car on Live For Speed and go FWD drifting now lol

Well to be honest as far as grip goes the 20s leave the 17" P6000s for dead, in a straight line.. I cant flatten first gear with 20s and absolutly no wheel spin whatsoever whereas with the 17s/P6000s i can barely use first gear and 2nd gear spins quite a bit. and before anyone says it, the P6000s have done 3000kms so they are like new....



i think that this may be bacause the 20's are much heavier than the 17's all up!

in my last car i had 18's on it and they were about 10kg heavier each than the 14's i put on it when i sold it, with the 14's on it it would light it up easy around corners etc... with the 18's though this was much harder to do.. it droped a second from the 0-100 time going from the 18's to the 14's

when i put 20's on my magna i didnt care about how it handles, every one know's that 17's and good tyres are mych better, 20's are just far to heavy, more than 10kg ea compared to the factory 16's my car had, not only does it effect the handeling it effects the acceleration braking and fuel economy!

my car has really crap tyres WANLI's :bowrofl: and comperssed lowered springs twice! std everything else, 100,000km old shocks! and when we went down the GOR on an unofficial cruise i'd say it handled pretty good.... even though the handeling sucks with the pogo shocks and heavy weights hanging off the end of them and the 2" of suspension travel it has...

still though im happy with what i have got.... getting it a bit lower soon though :badgrin:

You were seriously suprised at how bad your car would handle?

rofl..

Come on man. Compressed springs, tyres thinner than a libra pad (nankangs aswell). What do you expect?


yeah those libra pads are thin too, ive seen the add on tv.

yeah those libra pads are thin too, ive seen the add on tv.
Bain uses them, being a woman and all :P

^ LOL im going to laugh when your banned again :P

I am going the handling route, ofcourse i want the car to look good but i love driving, its in my blood and nothing feels better then hammering around a mounatin :D thats why i am riding on 17's and King lows, still not the best but hopefully when i get some decent shocks, swaybar and a strut it should improve 100%

lol theres a reason my car is still stock height with OMG even stock rims (will upgrade later on though) this setup is almost perfect for corners in 2nd gear and only a little lift off when turning hard around 5-6k RPM

i no the 20s and my ride height are not legal but i love it .. and im also happy with how the car handles.. this is more just info for ppl who want theyre car to handle really well and plan to come down the path i already have.. all im saying is dont :) ..either look awesome or handle awesome, cant have both


Mines legal as my engineers cert says it is.. :liar:

My car handles better with the 20`s and dumped then it did with 17`s and super lows.. :nuts:

With the car that low and with wheels that big it aint ment for the circut..:nuts: its does street fine.. has a little bit of body roll still but when i put my 24mm front and 22mm Adjustable whiteline swaybars in next week it will fit that.. three wheel cornering is overrated.. two wheel corners are better..:P

Mines legal as my engineers cert says it is.. :liar:

My car handles better with the 20`s and dumped then it did with 17`s and super lows.. :nuts:

With the car that low and with wheels that big it aint ment for the circut..:nuts: its does street fine.. has a little bit of body roll still but when i put my 24mm front and 22mm Adjustable whiteline swaybars in next week it will fit that.. three wheel cornering is overrated.. two wheel corners are better..:P

you sir are going to die lol i have done my car up for downhill racing (even reinfored the body as much as i can without cutting stuff) and even i havn't gotten over the first time i took it 2 wheels. i almost had a heart attack

Mines legal as my engineers cert says it is.. :liar:

My car handles better with the 20`s and dumped then it did with 17`s and super lows.. :nuts:

With the car that low and with wheels that big it aint ment for the circut..:nuts: its does street fine.. has a little bit of body roll still but when i put my 24mm front and 22mm Adjustable whiteline swaybars in next week it will fit that.. three wheel cornering is overrated.. two wheel corners are better..:P


hahaha man, that is a fine example of what whiteline told me not to do... lowered crazy on massive rims and now your throwing front and rear swaybars at it .. haha love your work

the real question is, are all these mods about lap times or photo's? :-)

hahaha man, that is a fine example of what whiteline told me not to do... lowered crazy on massive rims and now your throwing front and rear swaybars at it .. haha love your work


You know you want too.. I give you two weeks of me having min ein and you will get..:P



the real question is, are all these mods about lap times or photo's? :-)

If you had half a brain you could answer that yourself..:P

im running 18"s and superlows and my car sticks to the road like sh*t to a wet blanket

the real question is, are all these mods about lap times or photo's? :-)

lol..

Its about bragging rights to uneducated people... Until someone with a clue laughs at EGO for what hes done to his car :)


gremlin: You might think you have more grip, but its probably because your wheels weigh twice as much as before. As you said, you arent after handling performance so who cares!


TC: :P

18's with 235/40 rubber and a quality tyre will be fine for me. Standard Ralliart shocks and springs too. Ralliart worked hard to get the right suspension setup on the car for the best possible outcome of ride comfort vs handling. Then some of you go and completely ruin that.

lol..

Its about bragging rights to uneducated people... Until someone with a clue laughs at EGO for what hes done to his car :)


gremlin: You might think you have more grip, but its probably because your wheels weigh twice as much as before. As you said, you arent after handling performance so who cares!


TC: :P

like you said bain, it i want to make it for curcit it wouldnt be the way it is.. in its life it will have 99.98% street use and Prob 00.001% track use..:)

Handling wise, as long as you get good quality wheels and tyres, having bigger diameter wheels isn’t all bad. Being able to run lower profile tyres means stiffer sidewalls without having to go to a slick, giving you better handling response but less give to handle bumps can cause issues on the road.

The main thing is that you get good quality wheels, they need to be light but with minimal flex and good quality tyres are a must, the bit of extra money is cheap if it saves your *** from meeting a gutter.

My 19” Konig wheels with 245/35/19 Falken ST115 tyres weigh exactly the same as my OZ Racing Turismo wheels with 235/45/17 Falken ST115 tyres. On the track it’s quicker with the 19” wheels on for I believe 2 reasons; that the track is increased slightly (by 10mm) with the 19’s and that the car doesn’t squirm around on the tyres as much with the 19’s so u can explore closer to the limits.

Now that I’ve shagged the 17” tyres I’m gonna get a set of slicks and we’ll be in a different game then :)

Cummins

like you said bain, it i want to make it for curcit it wouldnt be the way it is.. in its life it will have 99.98% street use and Prob 00.001% track use..:)

Whats the other 0.009% for???

like you said bain, it i want to make it for curcit it wouldnt be the way it is.. in its life it will have 99.98% street use and Prob 00.001% track use..

Whats the other 0.009% for???
:bowrofl: I hope your maths teacher isn't reading this...
99.98% + 0.001% + 0.009% = 99.99% :nuts:

cheers,
.wook

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned that the tyres are actually part of the suspension system. When doing FSA's on the suspension geometry the spring rate of the tyre will always be accounted for. Your tyre pressures are probably one of the best handling mods you can do. Everytime I get a new set of tyres on I play with the pressures to get the best handling I can out of them. The right tyre pressures make a helluva difference.
Of course a rear sway bar on a car with practical tyres and suspension will make a massive difference as the front tyres aren't keeping the car level. The rear ones do that, so the fronts remain flat on the road allowing greater corner entry speeds :D

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned that the tyres are actually part of the suspension system. When doing FSA's on the suspension geometry the spring rate of the tyre will always be accounted for. Your tyre pressures are probably one of the best handling mods you can do. Everytime I get a new set of tyres on I play with the pressures to get the best handling I can out of them. The right tyre pressures make a helluva difference.
Of course a rear sway bar on a car with practical tyres and suspension will make a massive difference as the front tyres aren't keeping the car level. The rear ones do that, so the fronts remain flat on the road allowing greater corner entry speeds :D

I have to run atleast 44psi in my tyres cause i basiscally have no tyres.... Does that sound to much?

i run approx 46-48psi in the fronts and approx 42-44psi in the rears..... ohh yeah 20's

i find the ride quality is quite acceptable.....

Ive got the stocko 16x6" rims and I run 38psi... seems to be the best that I can find.

Whats the other 0.009% for???


:bowrofl: I hope your maths teacher isn't reading this...
99.98% + 0.001% + 0.009% = 99.99% :nuts:

cheers,
.wook


Hahahaha.. its the time its off the road and in the workshop with no engine like today..:P