Hi all,

I just collected a set of new blue injectors from a second gen magna the other day, and was thinking of putting them into my first gen TP. Just wondering, what things should I have done before putting them in? Like cleaning etc. They look to be in reasonable condition, from a 2nd gen with 202,000k (lowest distance of the lot in the caryard), with good condition o-rings, and not too seriously dirty, although quite a bit of crusty buildup on the injector outlets (around the outside of the injector).

Also, what kind of changes should I expect? I know they are 330cc rather than the original 270cc from the yellow injectors, so I would expect some differences. I hear it can help improve the idle, help a bit with performance and fuel economy. Has anyone else done this mod?

Dave

I think chris (Stagma) has been fiddling with that mod, might be worth Pm'n him :D

mad lante has done it

I just got back from a trip after putting those blue injectors in... and DAMN!

I recommend to anyone still using the yellow injectors to upgrade to the blue injectors. Better fuel economy, smoother idle (even with auto transmission!), noticeable improvement in performance - especially at the low end (my car has never been able to wheelspin from takeoff... now it happens easily!), and smoother ride once moving. It also appears to start slightly easier too. Basically I haven't found a single bad aspect to that upgrade. :thumbsup:

This is probably the best mod I have done to my first gen so far, and it's definitely gonna stay! Highly recommended!! :dancin:

EDIT: Make sure you only take the blue injectors from a TR/TS 4-Cylinder ONLY. The blue tops from a v6 will NOT fit!!

Dave

it's a possibility that your old injectors were just that stuffed that anything could make an improvement.

These injecters flow at the same rate as the injecters in the VN SS GRP-A

Lots of people with holden 5ltrs will pay good money for sets of these injecters.

I've got a set similar in my VP.

it's a possibility that your old injectors were just that stuffed that anything could make an improvement.
He had them checked and clean not so long ago, but it only seem to correct the idle

I just got back from a trip after putting those blue injectors in... and DAMN!

I recommend to anyone still using the yellow injectors to upgrade to the blue injectors. Better fuel economy, smoother idle (even with auto transmission!), noticeable improvement in performance - especially at the low end (my car has never been able to wheelspin from takeoff... now it happens easily!), and smoother ride once moving. It also appears to start slightly easier too. Basically I haven't found a single bad aspect to that upgrade. :thumbsup:

This is probably the best mod I have done to my first gen so far, and it's definitely gonna stay! Highly recommended!! :dancin:


Dave

just wondering what 2nd gen they came off. was it the v6. might have to give this a try:D

TR/TS 4cyl with the blue injectors

i have a spare set of these in wa if anyone wants to swing me some cash?
they are very good injectors and yeah i heard of the commies using em too

what sort of $$ your asking if its as good as whats made out to be it will do my tp good

1. magnatism has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space.

:rant:

Humm, this, my head work, no balance shafts, and some breathing mods just might make the magna a nicer drive.

Very interested.

Humm, this, my head work, no balance shafts, and some breathing mods just might make the magna a nicer drive.

Very interested.

they were put there to make the drive more 'nicer'. removing them makes everything rattle, and theres a harmonic at 3000rpm. if thats behind a auto box, sitting at the lights in gear is even worse without the balance shafts.

i have a spare set of these in wa if anyone wants to swing me some cash?
they are very good injectors and yeah i heard of the commies using em too

Might be interested. Not sure if i already have them installed though might check tommorow. I have a 2nd gen engine but am using the 1st gen efi system so i probably dont have them.

How much are they worth ?

they were put there to make the drive more 'nicer'. removing them makes everything rattle, and theres a harmonic at 3000rpm. if thats behind a auto box, sitting at the lights in gear is even worse without the balance shafts.


Well there not there now and I haven't had a problem.

inbox cleared!!

You are all full of it if thinking this will do anything. How is dumping more fuel in going to give you better fuel economy, let alone smooth out idle? It clearly shows you don’t know much about cars.

Chances are Mrmacomouto is right in saying your old ones where ****ed. 130,000km is a lot of mileage without being cleaned. Also chemically cleaned is useless, ultrasonically is the only sure way all built up deposits are gone.

How ever to answer your questions, yes I am running them but only to keep up with my extensive intake and head mods on the new motor. In fact, I’m still having lean out probs

Also, as for the removed balance shafts not being a problem, you’re the first that I’ve heard of not having issues with them gone. Apart from myself; BCX7, 3lante, and fulysig (that I know on these forums) have removed theirs, and have noticeable harmonics and rougher idle. In fact I have to idle around 1000-1100 otherwise I wouldn’t be able to keep a steady heart beat.
Dropping it any lower would send me to hospital, but having that with fully solid mounts and lumpy cam doesn’t help

No difference will be noticed to clear this up unless your car is modified and requires more fuel.

Or, your old ones are ****ed.

finally wise words from someone that actually knows what there talking about

Is it hard to replace the injectors ? I have NEVER had them cleaned or changed!

Is it hard to replace the injectors ? I have NEVER had them cleaned or changed!


easy as... take the fuel rail off and they come out.

Cool.

Anything else i need to know before doing it ?

take the pressure out of the system first, easyest is pull the carpet back on the passangers side and unplug the white plug with a thick black with white stripe wire and start the car till it dies

OK thanks for that :)

What the hell ? I went to Repco today and asked how much a set of injectors were and they said that they are $160 + my old ones :shock:

is that each or for all 4 and im guessing fully brand new?

is that each or for all 4 and im guessing fully brand new?

Im thinking thats for all 4 and i doubt they were brand new because he said to me that they dont sell new ones. Im guessing they recondition the old ones or something ?

Either way im not paying that much money :confused:

How ever to answer your questions, yes I am running them but only to keep up with my extensive intake and head mods on the new motor. In fact, I’m still having lean out probs


I have heard something about magna brown tops being better than the blue tops. That might help your issues.

That or i have a set of V6 Supercharged injectors off a VS Supersix calais here somewhere.

commadore injectors fit ours?

blue tops are better i belive

You are all full of it if thinking this will do anything. How is dumping more fuel in going to give you better fuel economy, let alone smooth out idle? It clearly shows you don’t know much about cars.

Chances are Mrmacomouto is right in saying your old ones where ****ed. 130,000km is a lot of mileage without being cleaned. Also chemically cleaned is useless, ultrasonically is the only sure way all built up deposits are gone.

How ever to answer your questions, yes I am running them but only to keep up with my extensive intake and head mods on the new motor. In fact, I’m still having lean out probs

Also, as for the removed balance shafts not being a problem, you’re the first that I’ve heard of not having issues with them gone. Apart from myself; BCX7, 3lante, and fulysig (that I know on these forums) have removed theirs, and have noticeable harmonics and rougher idle. In fact I have to idle around 1000-1100 otherwise I wouldn’t be able to keep a steady heart beat.
Dropping it any lower would send me to hospital, but having that with fully solid mounts and lumpy cam doesn’t help

Seems to me, Dave noticed a difference.

If that means that the old injectors were clapped out, so what. Good on ya Dave, for trying something out.
I'm happy that it made a difference for you.

Regarding the more fuel means worse economy thing; I'm not too sure about injector systems. Always been pretty scared of messin with 'em!
But I do know that, I have two Alfa's. Both identical, except one has bigger carbs (both have extractors). The one with the (bigger) del orto's performs and gives much better economy than the one with (smaller) webbers.

Same thing happened with the old ducati. 500cc put a slightly bigger carb (stil a del orto, of course!) and get a better running, quicker, more fuel efficient bike.

Dunno how it works, but certainly seems to work with carbs.

I don't think the main reason these injectors make a difference is due simply to the size difference.. I think some of it comes down to the spray pattern (which may or may not be slightly different), and possibly the mechanical design being slightly better. Even if not everyone notices a difference, I certainly have, and stagma also has. There is no way I would ever consider putting the old injectors back now as I have not found a single disadvantage with this mod.

Even if not everyone notices a difference in fuel economy, which is obviously dependent on the condition of the car and the mods it's had done, stagma and I have both noticed that there is a noticeably smoother idle, response seems to be slightly better and the fuel economy has increased. The whole point of my recommendation is to speak from my experience of performing this mod, and that it has the potential to improve fuel economy, performance and improve the idle. I am not saying to anyone that they must perform this mod, as it is their own choice whether they feel it will offer advantages or not. For those however who are considering something like this, yet are unsure whether it is possible or whether it helps with anything, this is simply a recommendation and an opinion. I cannot guarantee this mod will show the same advantages to everyone who performs it. However - whether or not it improves anything, as far as I can tell, it doesn't degrade anything either.

The second gen 4G54 magnas all use these injectors, and their fuel economy and performance is better than the stock first gen. That said, there must be something they did right with these injectors.



Seems to me, Dave noticed a difference.

If that means that the old injectors were clapped out, so what. Good on ya Dave, for trying something out.
I'm happy that it made a difference for you.

Regarding the more fuel means worse economy thing; I'm not too sure about injector systems. Always been pretty scared of messin with 'em!
But I do know that, I have two Alfa's. Both identical, except one has bigger carbs (both have extractors). The one with the (bigger) del orto's performs and gives much better economy than the one with (smaller) webbers.

Same thing happened with the old ducati. 500cc put a slightly bigger carb (stil a del orto, of course!) and get a better running, quicker, more fuel efficient bike.

Dunno how it works, but certainly seems to work with carbs.
I'm not entirely sure why there might be such a difference in fuel economy either, but whatever it does, before I was getting barely 380k - 400k / tank, while now in city driving it makes about 470k / tank. These injectors haven't been cleaned either and have done more k's. Whatever the reason, it worked for me, and anyone who is willing to give something like this a try, it should work for them too.



What the hell ? I went to Repco today and asked how much a set of injectors were and they said that they are $160 + my old ones
I wouldn't even bother going to repco for something like this - just go to a wreckers somewhere and pull some off a TR / TS magna. The injectors should cost between $30 - $40 second hand - just try and find them from a model that's done as few k's as you can find.

im running blue tops now did it make a difference :D

Those blue injectors have a very good reputation amongst almost all forms of car modifiers, holden and ford guys are always looking for them. So if you manage to get your hands on a few sets, chuck em on ebay and make a few quid!!!!!

yeah ill reset it over the weekend no dramas to report here

I have heard something about magna brown tops being better than the blue tops. That might help your issues.

interesting, what makes you say that??

interesting, what makes you say that??

I have been told they flow better. This was from one guy, everyone else i have asked has said blue tops. This bloke was running the browns in a blown VN SS and he swore by them.

It may be a load of bull but look around on the net.

EDIT:

The guy told me they flow at 24lb/hr and the blues flow at 20lb/hr.

I think that was it anyway.

I have been told they flow better. This was from one guy, everyone else i have asked has said blue tops. This bloke was running the browns in a blown VN SS and he swore by them.

It may be a load of bull but look around on the net.

The guy told me they flow at 24lb/hr and the blues flow at 20lb/hr.


For interest sake here are the conversions for the injectors in question:

270cc(yellow tops) = 27.71 lb/hr
330cc(blue tops) = 31.42 lb/hr

For interest sake here are the conversions for the injectors in question:

270cc(yellow tops) = 27.71 lb/hr
330cc(blue tops) = 31.42 lb/hr
im also interested to know where you have pulled thos figures from too?

hmm, maybe ill go back to the yellow and decide again

im also interested to know where you have pulled thos figures from too?

You know where to find me, so i guess we'll duke it it out again :boxing:

right....:nuts:

How much should I expect to pay at a place like U-Pull-It for the blue injectors? If anyone knows in Adelaide where's a good place to get them from? I've heard replacing the injectors doesn't take that long to do, how long should I expect it to take?

from never done them befor i had the old ones out and the new in with some cussing in 1hr, trick to it is twisting the injector into the fuel rail 1st on the head side they kind of socket in

An hour definately sounds like its worth the time! All I have to know now is how much they cost and where the best place is in adelaide to get them! :D

An hour definately sounds like its worth the time! All I have to know now is how much they cost and where the best place is in adelaide to get them! :D


cost = 30-40 bucks give or take alittle.
where - any local mistu wreckers near u. u want 2nd gen 4cly blue tops

They cost bugger all from a place like pick-a-part.

Like $7 an injector i think

They cost bugger all from a place like pick-a-part.

Like $7 an injector i think

7 x4 = 28 like i said 30-40 bucks give or take a few:D

Well for even $40 and an hours work, it definately sounds like a worthwhile exercise! So all the second gen's have the blue tops? (I take it they're distinctly, um, blue?!)

tr/ts have them and the tops are blue

How much should I expect to pay at a place like U-Pull-It for the blue injectors? If anyone knows in Adelaide where's a good place to get them from? I've heard replacing the injectors doesn't take that long to do, how long should I expect it to take?
i payed $0 from upi, good luck finding a set tho, i got the only set left, they seem to be a hot item down there

Yeah they must be hot now, they cost $11 each! did you hide them in your toolbox :D? lol! They had over a dozen down there, I found a TS that had only 202,000 on it which was the lowest of the lot. Took the injectors out... and they were clean! I was surprised, they must have already been specially cleaned or something recently.

I took mine out and noticed the cap on the end of one of them had a crack in it, don't think that would have done it any good. Unlike the blue ones I got two of mine looked quite dirty at the nozzle end.

They were surprisingly easy to install, I think I had quite a bit of luck but I got the whole thing installed in about 35 minutes or thereabouts. If you're good at it, you could get it done a lot quicker, the hardest thing is getting the rail in the right direction for easy access.

I got an old margarine container and collected the fuel from the rail when I pulled out the old injectors so I didn't spill any fuel. The first thing I noticed when I started the engine is I think it sounded better, although it could be psychological, and a definite is that the engine was idling higher. I had to adjust the idling back by about 150rpm!

It semed to run smoother, but in terms of fuel economy I won't be able to tell until tomorrow when I have a 700km drive ahead of me! Going by what I have seen so far though, I'd definately recommend it. The other good thing is the blue looks better in the engine bay :D. They are different injectors, so there would almost certainly be at least some differece but I think some of the difference I noticed might have come from the fact that one of my injectors may have been blocked slightly. I don't know what difference the slight crack in the end cap would have had.

Picked up 4 of these blue ones from Just-Pull-It today. The TR that I got them from had done 180,000 kms, poor thing died young. :(

OH WELL too bad! So I stole it's injectors all for meself, there were a few TR's, TS's left down there, $11 each injector, as stated above by burfadel.

I also have a gregory manual for my car and have spent the last hour reading through the fuel management section, now let me throw an idea out there. Whether or not the injectors CAN inject more, wouldn't putting bigger ones in there just give the EFI system more overhead when you put your foot in?

And also, the TR's have an extra 5kw's from just a revised air induction and fuel system from what I can find out. If anyone else has some more research into the system's please let me know, would be interesting to find out.

Will be interesting to see how these go when I put them through my TP tomorrow. Have the whole works in this manual on how to test them, install/remove (fuel rail and injectors), etc. Please let me know if anyone needs it scanned and I'll post it on here.

Anyways, I'll see how I go tomorrow.

Found it!


The engine management system on the TP Magna range of vehicles covered by this manual controls the operation of the ignition system and the fuel injection system.

The central component of the engine management system is the control unit. The control unit is a microcomputer which controls the ignition timing and the amount of fuel injected according to signals received from various sensors. As changes are detected in engine load and speed, coolant temperature, air temperature, throttle position, air intake and exhaust emissions, the control unit alters the ignition system output and the fuel injection to achieve optimum engine efficiency under those conditions.

The control unit also incorporates a self diagnosis mode which stores and displays codes relating to certain systems malfunctions. Whenever power is supplied to the control unit, the control unit performs a series of tests on various components in the system and records the results. When the self diagnosis mode is activated, fault codes are displayed, indicating if any faults are present in the system and in which area they have occured.

So, as I said, just because they're bigger injectors, doesn’t mean they're injecting more fuel 24/7. In the TP's case it’s only going to be using the extra overhead with the blue injectors when one of the above criteria is met, namely "throttle position". lol

Will be going out and installing mine soon, afterwards I'll probably post exact isntallation instructions for TP's.

The ECU will give a predetermined signal to fire the injectors depending on load conditions as stated above. Now that signal will always be the same for a certain load condition, say steady cruising at 100kph (in ideal conditions). That signal is based on the assumption that the factory injectors are in place, it will not automatically detect the larger injectors fitted. So for the same signal at 100kph the larger injectors will flow more fuel, possibly leading to the engine running richer.

But as soon as the engine does run thicker it will lean out the fuel, and it will learn from this.

If it didn't you may as well have another dizzy for the injector's.

But as soon as the engine does run thicker it will lean out the fuel, and it will learn from this.

If it didn't you may as well have another dizzy for the injector's.

I wasn't sure if it was a learning ECU, hence why I said it 'might' run richer. Either way there shouldn't be too much difference at light load anyway.

I wasn't sure if it was a learning ECU.

nope the frist gen's ecu's weren't the learning type. thats 3rd gen's i believe.

nope the frist gen's ecu's weren't the learning type. thats 3rd gen's i believe.
nop your thinking of the trans ecu, the efi ecu is defently learning, trust me with the new motor you really notice it it takes a while to shake off the surging for the cam


also im sure someone can back me up here COUGH stagma COUGH we found out that the blue tops actually flow LESS then the gen1 one yellows, the main difference between to the two was that the blue ran and alot higher pressure to achive max rate rather then the much lower yellow..............

Which explains the better fuel economy, and better performance due to higher pressure and better spray pattern :D

Makes more sense than the way we originally thought with the blues "flowing higher, yet giving better fuel economy".. that way i guess defies science lol

Either way it's only a minor detail and still doesn't detract from the fact that there is better economy and better performance with them, despite the reduced flow.

your using the first gen efi system with the first gen efi pump + fuel pressure regulator. this means there is no increase in pressure.

what mad lante was saying is the whole second system runs a higher fuel pressure designed for the blue top injectors.

There's a problem when using the blue injectors and upping the Fuel pressure, it eats fuel hence a the Drag Switch is being developed lol

From my understanding the fuel usage should stay the same, as the ECU will just fuire the injector for longer.

Always love a good debate on injection since I have done almost every course available.....

Yes the blue tops will flow better, you will appear to have a little more go due to your old injectors having many more years of varnish and carbon build up as well as the later injectors having a better spray pattern.

No the ECU will not eventually lean out, learning or not due to the fact that under load the O2 sensor is ignored.

The reason for the apparent better economy is less foot is used on the pedal, this in turn flows less air and less throttle opening is detected by the ECU this less fuel is injected.

The better idle is due to the better pattern thus more complete combustion. The O2 sensor will then read the mixture and the ECU is then able to lean out a little.

The basic way this all works is the ECU is programmed to state at throttle opening "x", load "Y", Revs "Z" give a pulse width of "A". On vehicles with a MAP sensor this is a lot more refined and it is a oversight of Mitsu to have been using the outdated system they have used for so damn long.

IF you are going to use the blue tops, you can increase your pressure, start by removing the vac line to see if your idle steadies, this will increase the pressure. If you have a spare pressure reg you can get it and tap the end of it with a centre punch, this will shorten the distance the spring inside travels and thus increase pressure. Do it in stages and only if you have a pressure gauge.

Adam has the blue tops as he has several induction, head and cam mods, these are needed to keep the top end there. On a standard 1st gen, with good clean std injectors, I would say the power may increase slightly however beyond that I would want to see dyno figures of both before and after to confirm anything more. Most of what is felt is upstairs in the imagination box.

Better mod would be to get the entire system from the 2nd gen and put it into the first, as Adam pointed out to me however he is not sure the manifold will clear the fire wall

Save your blue tops and sell them to the commo bogans ans as I make many $$ from doing this.

pay for it and ill ignore the laughter

no differance? this is one huge grey area statment! stock motor, intake, exhaust drop in blue tops would be like bolting on a cannon lol for "me" with my mods the motor has gained head room mostly in the top end reving to over 7500rpm without holding it flat for 5min and yes id say it was underload but like i said thats me unless you have moderate intake and exhaust mods minimum blue tops would be a woftam

After running these blue injectors for a few weeks, first thing that I noticed was the idle is heaps nicer and smoother, it was also nicer to start from cold.

E.g: When you start with the yellow tops it would start and start heading up to 900rpm (my idle) from about 500, it's heaps rough and has to be left for a minute before I tap it into reverse or drive.

With the blue tops, and this was the first thing I noticed, somehow! When you start it, it starts and is revving at 1000rpm or so straight away! And then makes its way down to idle speed. These injectors have made a lot of difference mainly for me on these two points.

Can't say I noticed any more power. :P

Fuel eco, well, I can't really say, I dropped a new full exhaust system on it in the middle of my fuel test week, and I've been testing the exhaust system to date, so there goes any good fuel economy. lol