personally i wouldn't put the high octane fuel in my car because i have a feeling that it going to screw up my valves and componets because of the increased combustion, yet i still see a large number of people using it in there aussie 91ron cars, is the extra 5ron going to damage my engine or am i just an idiot. lol.

yur just an idiot.

haha

ive used it in my for 4 years now and never had a problem

I always enjoy putting higher octane fuel into my tank, although when I switch back the next week or so, I can feel the car hating me for depriving it of its taste for higher octane :)

Higher octance fuel will not damage the car! Some say it is better for it but it depends on the brand etc. Its definately not worse so that should put your mind to rest!

Its true that topping out the performance of some imported cars could do the car damage when fully loaded, due to the poor contruction, but the Aussie cars are well and truly capable of it. Take the Ford Falcon GT for example, its damn powerful and has oodles of torque. Its probably the most powerful car around anywhere for a sedan designed to still tow over 2 tonne. That is an extreme example, but the Aussie cars are designed with large tolerances that a few extra kw isn't going to make your front wheels fall off! or seriously, do any damage to the pistons etc. The fact that a higher octane reduces pre-detonation, it is definately a recommended choice!

If you labour the engine up a steep incline it shouldn't ping, but most will especially with a poor batch of 91/92 octane or fuel thats been in the tank for a few months (the octane lowers as the lighter components evaporate off). Even if you can't hear the engine pinging during normal operation it probably is, but you can't hear it over the engine/road/traffic/wind/stereo etc...!

Yes, some models do have knock sensors but the detuning because of the knock sensors just leads to poor performance and reduced fuel economy!

Don't waste your money. Save it and buy yourself something nice.

Don't waste your money. Save it and buy yourself something nice.

Indeed. This seems to keep coming up.

3rd gen Magna/Verada = NO knock sensor

So you really are just wasting your money. I believe the Aust motoring organisations also reviewed the fuels to see if there were better detergents etc in the higher octane fuels and the answer was no, they're all much the same (91, 95 and 98 octane), despite the oil company advertising.

Are you saying it's a waste of money on a 3rd gen because there's no knock sensor. or the other way round??
2nd gens have knock sensors I think

Thats awesome.
But when my Grandad uses it (and hes a Grandad so he NEVER goes past like 1800rpm lol) He always tells me he gets an extra 80Kays out of it compared to Normal Fuel.
And he has a TF Auto

And if your smart. You fill up on tuesday/Wednesday for $1.20ish.
By the time late Wed/Thurs comes, normal petrol is $1.20

So i see it as not spending any extra money....
For the extra $5 a tank i dont care if i get more k's or not frankly. I know its a better quality of fuel. And since spending $0000's on my top end rebiuld so far i aint putting in cheap petrol.

on that note...
I was thinking of adding a bottle of Nulon octane Booster in with the 98RON. Now it boosts it supposedly 60-70 points.....Anyone used 168ROn Before?:P

Are you saying it's a waste of money on a 3rd gen because there's no knock sensor. or the other way round??
2nd gens have knock sensors I think

yes it's a waste of money cos 3rd geb don't have knock sensors...not sure about 2nd gen

There was a thread About this not long ago.
Some people actually said they get more k's per tank but were called liars all becuase of this knock sensor...

']There was a thread About this not long ago.
Some people actually said they get more k's per tank but were called liars all becuase of this knock sensor...

That's what is confusing me, from memory they were saying a higher ron was a waste of money because of the knock sensor (ie 2nd gens)
Yhink i will have to go searching for that thread

You can use higher fuel in a 2nd gen and see benefits because the computer can advance the spark until the car pings due to the knock sensor... thus taking advantage of the fuel.

3rd gens dont have a knock sensor so the timing doesnt get advanced and you dont get any extra power/economy. Buy the damn unleaded and get over your placebo effect.

LOL obsession with knock sensors, some people like me don't care about a power increase so small you don't notice it.
The reason i use only Premium in my 3rd gen is because it runs smoother, idles better and i get MORE K's FROM A TANK!

So to all the people saying its a waste of time in a 3rd gen, stfu :badgrin:

That's what is confusing me, from memory they were saying a higher ron was a waste of money because of the knock sensor (ie 2nd gens)
Yhink i will have to go searching for that thread
Change your avatar thanks champ.

LOL obsession with knock sensors, some people like me don't care about a power increase so small you don't notice it.
The reason i use only Premium in my 3rd gen is because it runs smoother, idles better and i get MORE K's FROM A TANK!

So to all the people saying its a waste of time in a 3rd gen, stfu :badgrin:

Been covered before that you'd like to think you're getting more Ks from a tank to justify the price, and that it idles smoother, aka the placebo effect. Even if you do get more Ks it's proven that it wont offset the cost. It's tuned for 91 fuel, feed it 91.

what if you treat the car harshly, wouldn't it be better to run it on 95+?

but isn't the higher grade fuel suppose to keep the engine clean or is that false advertisment?

']Thats awesome.
But when my Grandad uses it (and hes a Grandad so he NEVER goes past like 1800rpm lol) He always tells me he gets an extra 80Kays out of it compared to Normal Fuel.
And he has a TF Auto

And if your smart. You fill up on tuesday/Wednesday for $1.20ish.
By the time late Wed/Thurs comes, normal petrol is $1.20

So i see it as not spending any extra money....
For the extra $5 a tank i dont care if i get more k's or not frankly. I know its a better quality of fuel. And since spending $0000's on my top end rebiuld so far i aint putting in cheap petrol.

on that note...
I was thinking of adding a bottle of Nulon octane Booster in with the 98RON. Now it boosts it supposedly 60-70 points.....Anyone used 168ROn Before?:P

60 points is not 60 RON. Its only about 1RON or less.

As I posted before:
2nd gens have 10:1 CR, knock sensors and a base timing that can be advanced ontop of
what the ECU can do.
2nd gen on 91ron has 120kw and 124kw on 95ron. Torque increases by 9Nm as well and
that is not advancing the base timing. I had my old KS base timing advanced 5 degrees
and using 98ron I was getting over 100kw at the wheels.

3rd gens have a 9:1 CR, no knock sensors and no ability to advance base timing and no
knock sensors means ECU can't safely advance timing. The only benefit of higher ron is
cleaner running (supposedly). Although I do find that my car runs better on BP 91ron than
it does on CALTEX/Woollies 91ron (I was $2.00 better off per tank on BP eventhough I was
able to get 4c/ltr off at CALTEX). This would mean that in order for CALTEX/Woollies to
offer 4c/ltr discount, they must use crap fuel.

Clinical test on my 3.Gen 3 L Autobox (+ mods), done last year on holiday trip from Syd to Noosa, ~1150km one way. Similar load (2 ppl and helluva load), traffic and driving (legal speeds) both directions.
On the way up, Shell 91 oct. Consumption 7.9 / 100
On the way down, Shell Optimax 99 oct. Consumption 7.9 / 100
To me that looks like there was no difference at all. Of course we can speculate that it was different patches of fuel yaadayaada. Different temps and air pressure. Wind? Etc.

Now, I know I"m not being very technical and using the saying "tankful", but I'm sorry, I don't understand what a "tankful" means in these terms. Topped to the rim and the driven until engine stalls....? :D

put it in if you can afford it id say..it makes it go better and get better fuel acom..suit ur self tho.i always put octain boost in my car b4 i go to the drags.its never hurt my car and never herd of it hurting any1 else's. im sure the guys that spend alot of time at the drags use it lots.

'
And if your smart. You fill up on tuesday/Wednesday for $1.20ish.
By the time late Wed/Thurs comes, normal petrol is $1.20




thats what I do

fuel has always been argued, do some searches


blah @ another fuel thread

I only use 98 ron fuel in my car, and I don't think it's a waste of money.

cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool another thread where idiots come and give bullcrap information :nuts:

cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool another thread where idiots come and give bullcrap information :nuts:

that is exactly what is annoying me, this has been covered before but different answers each time, the only thing that is proven is that the car has no knock sensors, so power increase doesn't really happen, but efficiency and economy keep goin round in circles, yes, no, yes, no....just goin have to experiment. thanks anyways :)

I only use 98 ron fuel in my car, and I don't think it's a waste of money.
That's because your car is tuned for it.


that is exactly what is annoying me, this has been covered before but different answers each time, the only thing that is proven is that the car has no knock sensors, so power increase doesn't really happen, but efficiency and economy keep goin round in circles, yes, no, yes, no....just goin have to experiment. thanks anyways
There is only one answer, and that is; In 3rd gens anything higher than 91 ron fuels makes absolutely no difference to either fuel economy or power. It is a mechanical impossibility unless your car is tuned for it.

I only use 98 ron fuel in my car, and I don't think it's a waste of money.
Same, I've been told to use 98 and nothing less ;)

Then again, putting the 91 saved me enough to get the supercharger ....... :bowrofl:

Why do people think that Octane rating equals power output. The Octane rating is a benchmark for comparing the resistance to knock (preignition) of other fuels against the properties of Octane.

From what I remember of year 12 Chemistry (it was some time ago), the calorific value of the fuel is an indication of energy output, and even this needs to be understood in the context of engine design and tuning.

Ken

Same, I've been told to use 98 and nothing less ;)

Then again, putting the 91 saved me enough to get the supercharger ....... :bowrofl:

That is because you have it supercharged.

Ken N is right, the RON is a measure of the resistance to ignition. Octane which is a component of petrol has 8 carbon atoms in a molecule, it requires more energy to break/ignite the molecule. However, it releases more energy when the atoms break apart, with more carbon atoms the burn produces a lot more CO2.

You guys don't really need to know that, however use the higher octane fuel as it's better for your car.

Why do people think that Octane rating equals power output.
Because it's fullysik man! Don't you get it??? Bigger numbers = better man!!! More POWER and more economy!!! Fully sic!!! Octane booster bumps up the RON of your tank by like 5 points man!!! It's like running on avgas!!!!



Fullysick

Ken N is right, the RON is a measure of the resistance to ignition. Octane which is a component of petrol has 8 carbon atoms in a molecule, it requires more energy to break/ignite the molecule. However, it releases more energy when the atoms break apart, with more carbon atoms the burn produces a lot more CO2.

You guys don't really need to know that, however use the higher octane fuel as it's better for your car.


Thank god you said that....Cos I was sitting here thinking "ohh I see, so the pyagoras therom of the isolosies triangle, if equal to the square root of outside diameter of a sydchrome tool box, will therefore equal molecules to protons outlay, making the square area totally irrevalant to the isosolies triangle"....

As you could prob tell physics/chemistry wasnt exaclty my forte at school :D

Thats true im using the new v-power cost 1.40 per litre but you notice a differece in the car the way its handlys and everything

The only reason drivers pump 98+ when their car only requires 91 is so that they look cool at the service station.:P

HOW STUFF WORKS (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm)

The only reason drivers pump 98+ when their car only requires 91 is so that they look cool at the service station.:P

Says the guy that thinks he's cool because he drives a magna.

Thats true im using the new v-power cost 1.40 per litre but you notice a differece in the car the way its handlys and everything

Yep, that's due to the difference in molecular weight and composition of that fuel. It splashes in certain manner in the gas tank hence makes the vehicle behave differently.
Especially noticeably in cornering speeds exceeding 5 g's.
:cool:

Says the guy that thinks he's cool because he drives a magna.

Yes, that is correct.

Thats true im using the new v-power cost 1.40 per litre but you notice a differece in the car the way its handlys and everything
Post of the year.

The handling could be attributed to the increased acceleration when exiting a corner.

It being a magna, even the slightest power increase can be felt.

Post of the year.

:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl: This thread has made my day.

:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl: This thread has made my day.
:bowrofl: I'm so with you man. I don't know how something that is mechanically and physically an impossibility can even be open to interpretation. It must b da vtec y0.

:bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl: This thread has made my day.


:clap: :stoopid:

BTW Turbo: What ever came out of your eBay Tattoo-auction?

It would be interesting if the octane numbers went the other way - so 91 was standard unleaded and say 85 was premium unleaded.

I bet those who think 98 improves the performance of their 91RON-tuned cars wouldn't use a lower numbered fuel...wouldn't be cool now would it?...

But hey, the oil companies love you guys though!

:gtfo: so maybe if jets and planes started useing low octain fuels that would be ok. i wouldnt be flying thats 4 sure. me and heaps of other people have proved it time and time again. a simple test we did on motorbikes.. two bikes the same. one with 91 and other with 98. could easy see the power diffence. put 98 in both and back to being even.. same with our cars. why do u think 99% of speedway cars fun on eroplane fuel?? cause its got high octain and makes them go harder. however i think 98 fuel should be only used in cars made from about 1990 on .the older motors doesnt seem to get much differnce. as i sed b4. if you can afford it.PUT IT IN. cause in the long run it saves you $$$ /motor will last longer and go further on a tank full. (driven normally) sorry if some of you guys think otherwise.but we have proved this many times.

:gtfo: so maybe if jets and planes started useing low octain fuels that would be ok. i wouldnt be flying thats 4 sure. me and heaps of other people have proved it time and time again. a simple test we did on motorbikes.. two bikes the same. one with 91 and other with 98. could easy see the power diffence. put 98 in both and back to being even.. same with our cars. why do u think 99% of speedway cars fun on eroplane fuel?? cause its got high octain and makes them go harder. however i think 98 fuel should be only used in cars made from about 1990 on .the older motors doesnt seem to get much differnce. as i sed b4. if you can afford it.PUT IT IN. cause in the long run it saves you $$$ /motor will last longer and go further on a tank full. (driven normally) sorry if some of you guys think otherwise.but we have proved this many times.


planes r made to run on aviation fuel.....it's just not the same comparing 98Ron car running 98Ron petrol and 98Ron Car running 91Ron petrol to 91Ron car running 91Ron petrol and 91 Ron car running 98Ron petrol.
hope that makes sense

:gtfo: so maybe if jets and planes started useing low octain fuels that would be ok. i wouldnt be flying thats 4 sure. me and heaps of other people have proved it time and time again. a simple test we did on motorbikes.. two bikes the same. one with 91 and other with 98. could easy see the power diffence. put 98 in both and back to being even.. same with our cars. why do u think 99% of speedway cars fun on eroplane fuel?? cause its got high octain and makes them go harder. however i think 98 fuel should be only used in cars made from about 1990 on .the older motors doesnt seem to get much differnce. as i sed b4. if you can afford it.PUT IT IN. cause in the long run it saves you $$$ /motor will last longer and go further on a tank full. (driven normally) sorry if some of you guys think otherwise.but we have proved this many times.

Please go back and re-read some of the earlier posts in this thread, which actually contain some good factual information. This topic just keeps coming up. As for comparing motor bikes to cars without knock sensors, honestly...

We need a sticky that states once and for all that there will be no performance gain for 3rd Gen Magnas (yes, that's right, there's no knock sensor).

The perceived "smoothness" and "better economy" from running higher octane is truly subjective. Most of the claims are dubious and provided by the oil companies themselves in their own advertising. The extra economy usually relates to a car that has been tuned to run higher octane in the first place, and no surprise it runs better (and therefore more economically) on higher octane fuel. Duh!

Look up the independant tests run by the Australian Motoring Associations (NRMA, RACQ etc), who could find no significant difference in the additives between 91 and 98 octane. And certainly nothing that outweighed the extra cost of consistantly filling your car with a grade of fuel that it is not tuned to run with.

You are simply wasting your money and swallowing the advertising run by the oil companies.

:gtfo: so maybe if jets and planes started useing low octain fuels that would be ok. i wouldnt be flying thats 4 sure. me and heaps of other people have proved it time and time again. a simple test we did on motorbikes.. two bikes the same. one with 91 and other with 98. could easy see the power diffence. put 98 in both and back to being even.. same with our cars. why do u think 99% of speedway cars fun on eroplane fuel?? cause its got high octain and makes them go harder. however i think 98 fuel should be only used in cars made from about 1990 on .the older motors doesnt seem to get much differnce. as i sed b4. if you can afford it.PUT IT IN. cause in the long run it saves you $$$ /motor will last longer and go further on a tank full. (driven normally) sorry if some of you guys think otherwise.but we have proved this many times.
Come on mate... Save us all please.

Look up the independant tests run by the Australian Motoring Associations (NRMA, RACQ etc), who could find no significant difference in the additives between 91 and 98 octane. And certainly nothing that outweighed the extra cost of consistantly filling your car with a grade of fuel that it is not tuned to run with.

You are simply wasting your money and swallowing the advertising run by the oil companies.

Exactly. Sticky please.

Come on mate... Save us all please.


Exactly. Sticky please.

done its stays as a Sticky for a week then its going back to normal.

Curious all yo where you get this info that there is no knock sensor when the workshop manual for th and tj says that the probable cause for detonation is a faulty knock sensor??

Other than that, V-Power is shizzat and make my tj use 12/100 on the hwy and ethanol is the best and makes my car use like 8.5/100.. :D

generally i find shell to be crap, and bp and castrol are the bomb.

however to save cash i run freedom elite 98 (cheap as non eth unleaded).

oh and why does the rattle in my con rod reduce power if its not tripping the knock sensor eh???

Prove me wrong boys!! :poke:

for the people that think the higher octane rating will give you more power without changing anything, it won't, unless your car is currently pinging its **** off due to some other problem.

speedway cars running on avgas are doing so because it is about 110ron fuel. this lets them run the timing about 15 degrees more advanced than stock. if you advance the timing on the car then you can get a benefit from the higher octane. if you don't touch anything on the car you won't gain anything.

it you run higher octane fuel you should look at advance the timing. it will make the car much more enjoyable to drive.

so can someone who thinks they know what they are talking about tell me...what does octain booster do??? Please dont tell me it does nothing.i agree, a few things i sed urlyer was a bit:nuts: (didnt really get my point across) but i get more KPL out of my tank if i use 98 octain.im sure some will agree. but to those who dont....thats your choice. but if peeple think its good.they are gunner put it in no matter what you say

so can someone who thinks they know what they are talking about tell me...what does octain booster do??? Please dont tell me it does nothing.i agree, a few things i sed urlyer was a bit:nuts: (didnt really get my point across) but i get more KPL out of my tank if i use 98 octain.im sure some will agree. but to those who dont....thats your choice. but if peeple think its good.they are gunner put it in no matter what you say
You use octane booster when you don't even know what it does? Octane booster raises the octane level (ron rating) of the fuel in your tank. Most raise it by like 3 points or so and I think some may even raise it 5 points. So say you fill up with Shell 98 then put an octain booster in it that raises it 3 points, you effectively have 101 octane fuel. I won't bother commenting on the rest of your post.

yes i know what it does...but does it make any difference??? I put it in my car when i go to the drags...what im trying to say is...wouldnt it be the same putting octain boost in 91 octain fuel as to buying say 96 octain fuel? end up with around the same level octain right?? sooo do the people that believe that 98 octan fuel etc does nothing for power etc. do they also believe that octain boost does nothing?? hope that makes sence? not trying to arguewith you guys..trying to get where your comeing from

yes i know what it does...but does it make any difference??? I put it in my car when i go to the drags...what im trying to say is...wouldnt it be the same putting octain boost in 91 octain fuel as to buying say 96 octain fuel? end up with around the same level octain right?? sooo do the people that believe that 98 octan fuel etc does nothing for power etc. do they also believe that octain boost does nothing?? hope that makes sence? not trying to arguewith you guys..trying to get where your comeing from
It won't make any difference to our 3rd gen Magna engines because they have no knock sensors. :nuts: It will make a difference to a car that's been tuned to run high octane fuels. 91 + 3 = 94.

Just to put my 2 cents in....

I filled up with shel v-power last week... which is like.. 100 octane or something? Neway I noticed no real difference in the power and my fuel consumption went from approx 12 to 14.5+ ... Although this may have been because i was trying real hard to get more power out of it. I'm not sure :P

P.S. i have a 3rd gen...

Just to put my 2 cents in....

I filled up with shel v-power last week... which is like.. 100 octane or something? Neway I noticed no real difference in the power and my fuel consumption went from approx 12 to 14.5+ ... Although this may have been because i was trying real hard to get more power out of it. I'm not sure :P

P.S. i have a 3rd gen...

No knock sensor buddy, you won't get any real improved performance...

I filled my second gen up with 98RON last week and I got a little more out of it, nothing to shout about though, car has a little more get-up-and-go to it, but never-the-less, it's still a 4 cylinder, 14 year old magna.

']Thats awesome.
But when my Grandad uses it (and hes a Grandad so he NEVER goes past like 1800rpm lol) He always tells me he gets an extra 80Kays out of it compared to Normal Fuel.
And he has a TF Auto

And if your smart. You fill up on tuesday/Wednesday for $1.20ish.
By the time late Wed/Thurs comes, normal petrol is $1.20

So i see it as not spending any extra money....
For the extra $5 a tank i dont care if i get more k's or not frankly. I know its a better quality of fuel. And since spending $0000's on my top end rebiuld so far i aint putting in cheap petrol.

on that note...
I was thinking of adding a bottle of Nulon octane Booster in with the 98RON. Now it boosts it supposedly 60-70 points.....Anyone used 168ROn Before?:Pused it on my 5.0l statesman caprice eats fuel hose good

hey i work for bp i use ultimate in my 02 vrx and i drive fairly aggesively sometimes lots of hill to and from work i get 12.5/100k or if i really take it easy i get 11.5 rough sometimes less around 10-10.5/100ks i started using it as soon as i got the car 1 year ago:)

i dont really care cause i get 25%off my fuel anyway so ultimate costs me around th 90cent mark hehehe:bowrofl: :bowrofl: lol :bowrofl: :cool: :

i dont really care cause i get 25%off my fuel anyway so ultimate costs me around th 90cent mark hehehe:bowrofl: :bowrofl: lol :bowrofl: :

that aint fair, i work at mobil and we get no discount on fuel, meh doesnt matter,

so going off what everyone has said, higher octane fuel gives you 400kw MORE POWER!!! lol.

So no power increase/better fuel economy from higher octane fuel in 3rd gens UNLESS, the timing is advanced appropriately?

There is a power increase/better fuel economy from higher octane fuel in 2nd gens, although it isnt that great, and 2nd gens would also benefit from advancing the timing while using higher octane fuel to?

i dont really care cause i get 25%off my fuel anyway so ultimate costs me around th 90cent mark hehehelol :bowrofl: :cool: :

heheh we get 50% off, Dad is the Australia Manager for Caltex :D

So no power increase/better fuel economy from higher octane fuel in 3rd gens UNLESS, the timing is advanced appropriately?

There is a power increase/better fuel economy from higher octane fuel in 2nd gens, although it isnt that great, and 2nd gens would also benefit from advancing the timing while using higher octane fuel to?
Pretty much. The gain in a second gen from higher octane fuel using the advancing of the knock sensor is only going to be around 2-4kW at the fly wheel.

Pretty much. The gain in a second gen from higher octane fuel using the advancing of the knock sensor is only going to be around 2-4kW at the fly wheel.

Its not the advancing of the knock sensor. Don't people read my posts.
From the 2nd gen manual. using 95ron fuel without any modification adds 4kW and 9Nm at
the fly. I advanced the base timing (turning the dizzy cap) 5 degrees plus using 98ron fuel
and got a dyno result of over 100kW at the wheel for an auto Verada v6xi. The knock
sensor is mearly there to detect pinging (predetonation) so that the ECU can retard the
electronically controlled timing which can happen if fuel of lower than 98 ron (in my case)
was accidentally put in.

made the switch to shells unleaded 95 basically like pulp, power wise hasn't done a thing really but its gotten rid of the rotten egg smell that occasionally would come from my catback and noticed i get about 50-70 km extra on a tank (been through 3 tank fulls so far)

cost wise, its about $3-4 more a tank comparing 55L filled at 108c a litre compared with 113c a litre, 50-70km is a saving of rughly 6-7L so thats a saving of $6-8 so overall still saving $3-4 a tank, not something you can really save up for a house with but you might aswell put PULP in as its not goin to cost you anything IMO

made the switch to shells unleaded 95 basically like pulp, power wise hasn't done a thing really but its gotten rid of the rotten egg smell that occasionally would come from my catback and noticed i get about 50-70 km extra on a tank (been through 3 tank fulls so far)

cost wise, its about $3-4 more a tank comparing 55L filled at 108c a litre compared with 113c a litre, 50-70km is a saving of rughly 6-7L so thats a saving of $6-8 so overall still saving $3-4 a tank, not something you can really save up for a house with but you might aswell put PULP in as its not goin to cost you anything IMO




u'll save more if u use 95 from united servo thats wat i use:think: coz they're 3cents cheaper to their unleaded

u'll save more if u use 95 from united servo thats wat i use:think: coz they're 3cents cheaper to their unleaded

yeh i would but i have i thing with 7 eleven, united, liberty etc dunno why, i guess cuz they all look run down in my area compared to shell bp mobil and just makes me think ethanol spiking:bowrofl: i think shell and them have cleaning properties in the fuel aswell so even more beneficial.

Just to be different- I have a 1976 mini with Sweet F A Compression, It runs better on lower octane fuel. maybe 10% more power.

Just to be different- I have a 1976 mini with Sweet F A Compression, It runs better on lower octane fuel. maybe 10% more power.


can someone explain to me how less octane can result in more power? first i've heard of it.

If you want a high octane fuel use Leaded fuel :D... just not all the time ;)

If you want a high octane fuel use Leaded fuel :D... just not all the time ;)
It's a little hard to get these days. Unless it's Avgas.

The mini engine that developed more power with lower octane fuel is in serious need of a rebuild, compression was very low, From memory 1 cylinder was 60psi with a compression test and all he other ones wernt too good.

I think timing was advanced as possible but probably wasnt far enough for he 95 octane fuel.
the higher octane fuel was probaly strugling to explode in the cylinder with the really low compression.

It's a little hard to get these days. Unless it's Avgas.

Sorry it was a little joke.... Octane schmoctane... just use whatever u can afford

My understanding is that the flame front in higher octane fuel is slower than low octane. So with high octane, you can use higher compression (because it resists pinging) and advance the timing so that the flame front reaches its peak at the optimum time to deliver power through the piston. (My guestimation is that would be when the piston is at 90 degrees on the crank.) The flame front is also burning longer so it is more efficient at extracting the energy in the air/fuel mix.
Lower octane takes less time for the flame front to reach its peak so less timing advance is required however the shorter burn time still generates less power.

With the Mini example earlier, it is possible that the higher octane flame front was still reaching its peak after the piston was past 90 degrees on the crank whereas the low octane was peaking just right. So the advantage of the higher octane was lost.

Edit: I reckon that's about 20c worth. :blah:

read some of the thread

98 fuels are cleaner than 91

i ask customers what fuel they use all the time
i see fuel filters all the time that are blocked running 91
when running 98 the fuel filters are clean and not blocked

also ive seen the differance between a injector thats done 50000 km on a flow machine using 91 and 98

the 91 was verry poor flow rate after cleaning it wasnt too bad
the injector that used 98 had no change in flow readings still reading to its full cap.

and yes if you advance the timing on 3rd gen it will make a differance more power and better econ

what the hell is the point of this thread?



man I really need to get some sleep


Shell V-power is the best in my 2nd gen - Ive trialled all premium fuels for a few months at a time each.

It won't make any difference to our 3rd gen Magna engines because they have no knock sensors. :nuts: It will make a difference to a car that's been tuned to run high octane fuels. 91 + 3 = 94.


This is not entirely correct. Whilst you may see no more power, you do get other benefits.
98 octane fuels such as Shell V power and BP ultimate, are high density fuels. This means that you will get more kilometres per tank.
I have seen the tests done!! BP and Shell cannot just make claims about these fuels unless they are proven. False advertising.....big fines...etc etc.
These fuels do cost more of course per litre, but this evens out somewhat with the extra kilometres per tank.

Also both these fuels are more refined, and hence cleaner. This will influence those more who plan to hang on to their cars longer, then those that update regularly as its better for you engine. Both these fuels also contain cleaning agents that are not in regular unleaded. Guess it comes down to how much you value your car......
So don't just look at the pump price difference!!!!

Finally I decided to ad my 2 c worth opinion. Magnas have low compression rate of 9:1 which is quite happy with ULP . In fact white coats in Mitsubishi RD department design it to use ULP. I wander why people who sugest using PULP 95 or 98 RON in stock engine still work their jobs , whatever the job is. They should rush somewhere, buy white coats, jump into their Magnas filled with PULP, head twards Adelaide and replace existing white coats. :bowrofl:
Supercharged or turbo magnas should use PULP. It is arguable if PULP is cleaner than ULP. Apart from Magna my family owns two cars with high compression both of which use 98 RON petrol. From my experience it is not arguable quality of petrol sold in Australia. It is poor.
In C2 we use 98 RON only and sometimes engine pings. I can not prove it, but have strong filling that we do not always get what we pay.
Back to magna high octane debate. My car just clocked 199000 Km. I fill at safeway petrol about 90% of total petrol used (regular ULP 91 RON). Never had my injectors cleaned. Replaced fuel filter at 188000 Km, was dirty but nothing to worry about.
From 11.12.2005. till 10.12.2006. recorded mileage and petrol used and average consumption was 10.96 l/100km. About 60% was city driving, short distances. On a trip to Mildura recorded 8.79 l/100km with three adults and lugage (not driving like grandma).
I did try 98 RON for a month couple of years ago, noticed slight improvement but not that it would justify spending 10c a litar more.
Now I am going to soak my fingers in warm bath.

Finally I decided to ad my 2 c worth opinion. Magnas have low compression rate of 9:1 which is quite happy with ULP . In fact white coats in Mitsubishi RD department design it to use ULP. I wander why people who sugest using PULP 95 or 98 RON in stock engine still work their jobs , whatever the job is. They should rush somewhere, buy white coats, jump into their Magnas filled with PULP, head twards Adelaide and replace existing white coats. :bowrofl:
Supercharged or turbo magnas should use PULP. It is arguable if PULP is cleaner than ULP. Apart from Magna my family owns two cars with high compression both of which use 98 RON petrol. From my experience it is not arguable quality of petrol sold in Australia. It is poor.
In C2 we use 98 RON only and sometimes engine pings. I can not prove it, but have strong filling that we do not always get what we pay.
Back to magna high octane debate. My car just clocked 199000 Km. I fill at safeway petrol about 90% of total petrol used (regular ULP 91 RON). Never had my injectors cleaned. Replaced fuel filter at 188000 Km, was dirty but nothing to worry about.
From 11.12.2005. till 10.12.2006. recorded mileage and petrol used and average consumption was 10.96 l/100km. About 60% was city driving, short distances. On a trip to Mildura recorded 8.79 l/100km with three adults and lugage (not driving like grandma).
I did try 98 RON for a month couple of years ago, noticed slight improvement but not that it would justify spending 10c a litar more.
Now I am going to soak my fingers in warm bath.


What?????????:nuts:

My understanding is that the flame front in higher octane fuel is slower than low octane. So with high octane, you can use higher compression (because it resists pinging) and advance the timing so that the flame front reaches its peak at the optimum time to deliver power through the piston. (My guestimation is that would be when the piston is at 90 degrees on the crank.) The flame front is also burning longer so it is more efficient at extracting the energy in the air/fuel mix.
Lower octane takes less time for the flame front to reach its peak so less timing advance is required however the shorter burn time still generates less power.

With the Mini example earlier, it is possible that the higher octane flame front was still reaching its peak after the piston was past 90 degrees on the crank whereas the low octane was peaking just right. So the advantage of the higher octane was lost.

Edit: I reckon that's about 20c worth. :blah:


I have to agree with Scorp on this . I believe some octane boosters work or at least make a difference to throttle response and depending on the car can increase KW output . Ive seen before and after results from Dyno tests done on some Octane booster products and while some made no difference at all others made quite noticeable difference.

i see fuel filters all the time that are blocked running 91
when running 98 the fuel filters are clean and not blocked
also ive seen the differance between a injector thats done 50000 km on a flow machine using 91 and 98
the 91 was verry poor flow rate after cleaning it wasnt too bad
the injector that used 98 had no change in flow readings still reading to its full cap.

and yes if you advance the timing on 3rd gen it will make a differance more power and better econ

Perhaps more the quality of fuel than octane?

Apart from "chipping" a 3Gen donk, how can one adjust timing on it? To my understanding not possible.

Did a test with Shell 91 vs 98 on long drive (~1000km) couple of years ago. 2 persons, trunk full, legal speeds and a/c on and very similar driving conditions, weekday, no much traffic difference etc.
Syd to Brisy, 91 oct, 7.9 / 100 km
Brisy to Syd 98 oct 7.9 / 100 km :cool:

i use the 100 octane shell optimax racing in my silvia - however to get the full benefit - i had to remap the ecu.

ADM car ecus are programmed for lower octane fuels so putting a high octane in doesnt always give you the best ouput it can. need to remap to get 100% of the benefits.


only use the 98 octane shell fuel in the verada

I read an article by Choice magazine a couple of years back where two identical cars were run between melbourne and sydney, one on ulp and the other on premium. No apreciable difference in power or performance and the car on ulp got slightly better economy. Maybe better driver? Same speed all the way, the cars travelled together and filled up together at journeys end.

I read an article by Choice magazine a couple of years back where two identical cars were run between melbourne and sydney, one on ulp and the other on premium. No apreciable difference in power or performance and the car on ulp got slightly better economy. Maybe better driver? Same speed all the way, the cars travelled together and filled up together at journeys end.

What, one behind the other taking advantage of the slip stream? Once I was out driving
outside Perth on a Sunday arvo and suddenly realised the fuel guage was on the last bar.
Spotted a truck and followed closely behind it for the 150kms to get back to civilisation.
Wouldn't have been able to do that if there was nothing in front of me.

You guys are funny!! :bowrofl: I couldn't stop laughing here at work.

I used 91ron on my Ralliart with Lead replacement :D :D By doing that, I get 270kwatw more than Jase (TZA) have. :D

What about E10 then? It's certainly cheaper but do you get less kms out of a tank when you use it?

I have only just bought my 96 TE V6 magna and have only used one tank of fuel so far. When I refilled yesterday I had driven 446kms and it cost $68 for 55.3L. Curious to see how that compares with others.

That was 80% city driving @ 100% grandpa mode.

check out the figures from MMAL testing using 91 and 95 fuel for the 380 http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_105236/title_Mitsubishi's%20All-New%20Sporty%20'380'%20Sedan%20Launched/newsarticle.html

apparently theres a .16 difference to 100 using the higher octane fuel. does the 380 get 175KW with 91 or 95 cause theres definately some advantage to using higher octane.

All this talk about 98 v 91.. has anyone dropped in 100RON?

MoTeC did a fuel test and Shell v-power Racing (100RON) came out on top, even on a stock motor.

http://www.motec.com.au/fueltest/index.htm

To say that you can't get gains using higher octane fuels than standard is a little ignorant. tune the car for it and you won't go back. And the higher grade petrols are better for your car.

Extra gains can be made with a decent tune..

To say that you can't get gains using higher octane fuels than standard is a little ignorant.

You've said it yourself. You can't get increased gains on a stock motor without a specific tune to utilise the higher octane fuel. Plus that motec comparison is obviously a plug for shell.

What about E10 then? It's certainly cheaper but do you get less kms out of a tank when you use it?

I have only just bought my 96 TE V6 magna and have only used one tank of fuel so far. When I refilled yesterday I had driven 446kms and it cost $68 for 55.3L. Curious to see how that compares with others.

That was 80% city driving @ 100% grandpa mode.

Using this calculator you can determine your fuel economy which in your case was 12.39l/100km. That's not too bad I guess considering you spent 80% of your fuel city driving.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/foo7/fuel.html

I found that the cheaper price of E10 was offset by reduced range when I used it. I mean, my car drank E10 like it was going out of fashion. I then tried 98 PULP with no appreciable difference in economy, consequently reverting back to trusty ULP.

If you haven't already, check this thread where you can compare your fuel economy figures with other 3rd gens.

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35083

BP ultimate FTW!!

i used to use optimax, but all the dyno tuners i have talked to say BP ultimate 98 is the best...

plus my car has to run on it, it says so in the book and inside the fuel door, "MIN 98 ron fuel ONLY"

damn its an 87model did they even have 98ron then?


btw every now and again i use 98ron 10% ethanol and it's fine just dont use it all the time... km wise it's only a handfull ok km less from a tank or ethanol but its also 10-15cpl cheaper than ultimate


power wise? cant tell car only has like 3kw atw or something anyway lol

All this talk about 98 v 91.. has anyone dropped in 100RON?

MoTeC did a fuel test and Shell v-power Racing (100RON) came out on top, even on a stock motor.

http://www.motec.com.au/fueltest/index.htm

To say that you can't get gains using higher octane fuels than standard is a little ignorant. tune the car for it and you won't go back. And the higher grade petrols are better for your car.

Extra gains can be made with a decent tune..


Yeh i have been hearing a lot about this new shell V racing fuel, 100ron sounds good to me.
Has anyone used the 100RON as of yet???

You've said it yourself. You can't get increased gains on a stock motor without a specific tune to utilise the higher octane fuel. Plus that motec comparison is obviously a plug for shell.

The test is what it is. If the results weren't accurate and reliable, MoTeC would not stake it's reputation on it. To name a company in independent tests, the company must agree. If you were BP, would you allow MoTeC to name it's product if it was outperformed by the competition?

A tuned stock motor is still a stock motor.

The MoTeC test also shows that even an untuned motor shows gains. very small, but still there. If you don't have the attention span to read the whole test before posting, download the clip on that page. gives you the basis for the test without having to read.

I use 98 cause its a cleaner burning fuel (cleaner on internals)....that and i am going to the dyno shortly for a tune anyhow.... but NO knock sensor no gains in economy or power....so if you want gains go get tuned for it.....and the 380 has a knock sensor so theres no arguement there.....

I have just read thru this entire post (nuthin better to do) and I am non the wiser. I read a Choice Magazine article on the subject and their conclusion was that there is no apreciable difference between the fuels in either increased power output or longer engine life. And I get really confused when people start talking about JET FUEL! Jet fuel is simply aviation kerosene and if your silly enough to put it in your tank, watch your entire street disapear in a cloud of white smoke if your engine fires at all and be prepared to be dodging the EPA people who will be looking for you. sorry for the long post but I am trying to clear up a few things in my mind.
Q - What is Avgas (Aviation Gasoline)? According to CASA Civil Avation Safety Authority

A - Aviation Gasoline (Avgas) comes from the petroleum fraction (mainly alkylates) and is designed to fuel the aircraft that uses the reciprocating piston engine with spark ignition. Grades of aviation gasoline are identified with names based on their antiknock quality (as measured by Octane Number):

o Grade 80 / Grade 91 - No longer available in Australia; and

o Grade 100/130; and

o Grade 100LL (Low Lead).

Different colours, obtained by the use of specific dyes, are used to differentiate the fuel grades.
Grades 100/130 and 100LL are identical in antiknock quality but differ in maximum lead content.
The most common specification for Avgas is ASTM D910 and determines the various properties of aviation gasoline such as performance (Knock Value / Octane rating), concentration of lead (addition of tetraethyl lead or TEL), appearance, colour (blue, yellow and red), volatility, vapour pressure, residue/ precipitate, density, sulphur content, freezing point, corrosion, oxidation stability and conductivity. This helped me a bit.

av gas is as you mentioned...

jet fuel is different...

Jet A1 is kero and parafin wax

i can get you some lol wont work in a piston engine though

I use 98 cause its a cleaner burning fuel (cleaner on internals)....that and i am going to the dyno shortly for a tune anyhow.... but NO knock sensor no gains in economy or power....so if you want gains go get tuned for it.....and the 380 has a knock sensor so theres no arguement there.....

Beg to differ on the no knock sensor issue. You still can get gains in either or, depending on the fuel. They may be small, but can still be present.

Biggest gains are had when tuned. Which really should be done with good car maintaince anyways.

yeah once you the advance timing

I have been running Optimax, V-Power, now Ultimate for all of the life of my car (the only unleaded fuel it got was the free tank when I bought it). Any highway driving Im averaging 8.5 / 8.7 per 100. I have the 5spd manual. I recently added the fuel rail kit, I took the injectors to get cleaned, they threw em back to me and said dont bother there is nothing to clean. That was at 170000. All I can out it down to is the 98+ fuel

Oh and I haven't advanced any timing... wouldn't have a clue how too to be honest

I have been running Optimax, V-Power, now Ultimate for all of the life of my car (the only unleaded fuel it got was the free tank when I bought it). Any highway driving Im averaging 8.5 / 8.7 per 100. I have the 5spd manual. I recently added the fuel rail kit, I took the injectors to get cleaned, they threw em back to me and said dont bother there is nothing to clean. That was at 170000. All I can out it down to is the 98+ fuel

Oh and I haven't advanced any timing... wouldn't have a clue how too to be honest
I get between 7-8L/100kms on the highway, and i run regular 91, and my car is only a 4spd auto! Throw some quality 91RON in there and you won't notice the difference.

I get between 7-8L/100kms on the highway, and i run regular 91, and my car is only a 4spd auto! Throw some quality 91RON in there and you won't notice the difference.

I just dont see how someone can spend $10K+ on a car (to people in general) then feed it the worst fuel they can only to save $5.
I dont see any downsides of running premium in the car all the time, if you have the 4c voucher then it only makes the fuel 6c more expensive over standard crap.

Btw how do you know its "quality" 91RON

']I just dont see how someone can spend $10K+ on a car (to people in general) then feed it the worst fuel they can only to save $5.
I dont see any downsides of running premium in the car all the time, if you have the 4c voucher then it only makes the fuel 6c more expensive over standard crap.

Btw how do you know its "quality" 91RON

yea i agree, i was getting petrol from bp , that was i i was using,it was the 91ron stuff, car ran like shi*, so i went a got a tank of wollies vortex , problem solved :D

']I just dont see how someone can spend $10K+ on a car (to people in general) then feed it the worst fuel they can only to save $5.
I dont see any downsides of running premium in the car all the time, if you have the 4c voucher then it only makes the fuel 6c more expensive over standard crap.

Btw how do you know its "quality" 91RON
The only downside to running premium all the time is that your wasting 10c a litre (we're talking 3rd gens here, 2nd gens are a different story).
91 RON isn't the worst fuel, it totally depends on the quality of the fuel (namely where you get it from).
I either fill up at BP or shell, mainly because they're convenient, but also because i've never had a problem with their fuel. I know they are quality fuels because my car always runs smoothly on them, and get's great economy, no loss of power etc.

I try to use premium every 4-5 tanks, as it does help clean to a degree, but using it every tank in a car without a knock sensor that is tuned for RON 91 is a waste of money.

Not really, Close family i know only put Premium in there 3rd gen becuase they can get over 80kays a tank more to it then 91RON

Serioulsy man you drive a ralliart you should be giving it what it deserves:P

']Not really, Close family i know only put Premium in there 3rd gen becuase they can get over 80kays a tank more to it then 91RON

Serioulsy man you drive a ralliart you should be giving it what it deserves:P
lawl yeh its a de-tuned ralliart :P.
I'd say there are other influences in your close family getting better economy:
Dirty fuel system, regular 91 fuel they use is crap, car may even be out of tune (advanced slightly) and taking advantage of the higher octane.

lawl yeh its a de-tuned ralliart :P.
I'd say there are other influences in your close family getting better economy:
Dirty fuel system, regular 91 fuel they use is crap, car may even be out of tune (advanced slightly) and taking advantage of the higher octane.
They dont use 91RON as after using premium they aint going back
Cars only done 40K so i doubt its out of tune
Just stfu and start putting premium in it kthxbai :P

So in a 2nd gen, to people actually experience fuel economy differences? I'm currently testing out the theory in my AE82, which is suppose to get more km's per tank (550km on PULP compared to 450km on ULP), is it worth running the same test in a 2.6L TR?

I don't want to spend the extra on fuel if its not worth it, but if it is, I'm willing to give it a go.

So in a 2nd gen, to people actually experience fuel economy differences? I'm currently testing out the theory in my AE82, which is suppose to get more km's per tank (550km on PULP compared to 450km on ULP), is it worth running the same test in a 2.6L TR?

I don't want to spend the extra on fuel if its not worth it, but if it is, I'm willing to give it a go.
It's definitely worth a try! Get a base reading of kms per tank on regular, then on premium, work out the extra cost per litre of premium against the extra kms you gain and see if it works out cheaper.
I used to be able to push 650kms out of my TR on premium, but only ended up working out to be about $2 cheaper a tank, though for the extra power and better economy, was well worth it.


']They dont use 91RON as after using premium they aint going back
Cars only done 40K so i doubt its out of tune
Just stfu and start putting premium in it kthxbai :P
My engine had 55k on it and needed a tune up :P. I think we'll just agree to disagree (unless you don't agree to that :P).

So in a 2nd gen, to people actually experience fuel economy differences? I'm currently testing out the theory in my AE82, which is suppose to get more km's per tank (550km on PULP compared to 450km on ULP), is it worth running the same test in a 2.6L TR?

I don't want to spend the extra on fuel if its not worth it, but if it is, I'm willing to give it a go.
Cant hurt can it :)

Yep, this was true for my 2.6. Used 11.1 litres per 100ks on regular unleaded and 10.5 on premium. The car was better to drive too. Worked out that the extra milage completely negated the extra cost. So i got more power for the same money.

The power differences are spelled out in the owner's manual btw. For the 2.6 the differnec was listed as 98/103 kw (IIRC) and for the 3.0 120/125 kw.

For a 2nd gen it's sensible to use premium over regular unleaded. The overal cost in pertrol ends up the same but you get more power and drivability.


So in a 2nd gen, to people actually experience fuel economy differences? I'm currently testing out the theory in my AE82, which is suppose to get more km's per tank (550km on PULP compared to 450km on ULP), is it worth running the same test in a 2.6L TR?

I don't want to spend the extra on fuel if its not worth it, but if it is, I'm willing to give it a go.

Yep, this was true for my 2.6. Used 11.1 litres per 100ks on regular unleaded and 10.5 on premium. The car was better to drive too. Worked out that the extra milage completely negated the extra cost. So i got more power for the same money.

The power differences are spelled out in the owner's manual btw. For the 2.6 the differnec was listed as 98/103 kw (IIRC) and for the 3.0 120/125 kw.

For a 2nd gen it's sensible to use premium over regular unleaded. The overal cost in pertrol ends up the same but you get more power and drivability.

Also think about servicing costs. as some one said.. injectors, fuel filter, lines etc. permium fuels are more refined that your 91, so less deposits and clogging= a better more effiecent car in the long run. Save 6 cents now, pay $$$ to clean your fuel system in a couple of years.

Not worried about other's opinions, this is my experience.

In my TL VRX I ran Shell regular unleaded for 2500km and then ran 2500km on Optimax. I recorded the amount of fuel used, the mileage and the cost of both unleaded and Optimax at the time of purchase.

The end result was that IN MY CASE with city and week end driving even though the Optimax was dearer at the pump the cost per km was lower than using regular unleaded.

The V-power Racing was a complete waste of money, gave up after 1000km. No noticeable increase in power, higher price and worse economy than regular unleaded.

I now have a Mobil card and intend to run the same test on regular, 6000 and maybe 8000.

I now have a Mobil card and intend to run the same test on regular, 6000 and maybe 8000.

FYI - the 8000 would be the mobil equivalent of shell optimax.

FYI - the 8000 would be the mobil equivalent of shell optimax.
Shell what? I think you mean V-Power.

Not worried about other's opinions, this is my experience.

In my TL VRX I ran Shell regular unleaded for 2500km and then ran 2500km on Optimax. I recorded the amount of fuel used, the mileage and the cost of both unleaded and Optimax at the time of purchase.

The end result was that IN MY CASE with city and week end driving even though the Optimax was dearer at the pump the cost per km was lower than using regular unleaded.

The V-power Racing was a complete waste of money, gave up after 1000km. No noticeable increase in power, higher price and worse economy than regular unleaded.

I now have a Mobil card and intend to run the same test on regular, 6000 and maybe 8000.

Did you adjust the tune of your car to get the most out of the particular fuel you were trying each time?

The latest name for it is V-Power but it was Optimax when I ran the test. I'm not sure if the new V-Power is just a rename of the same fuel or if they have changed it in some way. I remember a lot of publicity for both Shell high octane and regular unleaded when they changed the name. May be a slightly different formula, I don't know.

No I did not make any adjustments for the different fuel, that would have corrupted the test by adding a different variable. I wanted to compare the fuels alone. That is also why the total distance was 5000km. I thought anything less may not lead to accurate results eg a week of green lights :bowrofl: versus a week of traffic jams :rant: .

I know 8000 is Mobil's equivalent but it will be interesting to see if I get similar results.

Mate you will not notice any difference in fuels on a 3rd gen, this has been discussed a billion times, the timing needs to be set for it and also a aftermarket ecu etc

It dosent matter if your running 100% octance Vs 91 octane, your car will notice no difference, stock standard. There is no knock sensor to pick up the different levels so the only real benefit is some cleaning product for the engine. If your car has been set up for this then good luck with it.

This has been done at least 500 times; from knock sensor to fuel to timing:
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51460&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43012&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42201&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862&highlight=high+octane+fuel
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36822&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36732&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33402&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24080&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16937&highlight=knock+sensor
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30498&highlight=advance+timing
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28208&highlight=advance+timing
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23477&highlight=advance+timing
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14551&highlight=advance+timing
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14548&highlight=advance+timing
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23303&highlight=high+octane+fuel
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20217&highlight=high+octane+fuel



Hate to be a party pooper but its been there, done that for this topic.

how do you guys know if you're not running 10%ethyl alcohol or 5% water? Do you al really trust the sevice station proprietors that much? I filled up at a servo in Sydney recently and was going to strip the car sor parts so I drained the tank when I got home and the fuel tasted better than some of the bourbon you can buy around town.
Not to put too fine a point on it but the alcohol taste was really strong. I should add that there were no signs around the servo about alcohol in the petrol. Just selling it as ULP!

To add my 2c again... I filled up tonight with 95 by mistake and all I noticed was that it cost me more.

hey guys quick question. My car is tuned to 98 ron with a unichip. If I fill up using 100 ron will there be an improvement in power and economy now that my car is tuned to run a higher octane fuel? Or will it have no impact because my car is tuned to run 98 and 98 only?

The latest name for it is V-Power but it was Optimax when I ran the test. I'm not sure if the new V-Power is just a rename of the same fuel or if they have changed it in some way. I remember a lot of publicity for both Shell high octane and regular unleaded when they changed the name. May be a slightly different formula, I don't know.

No I did not make any adjustments for the different fuel, that would have corrupted the test by adding a different variable. I wanted to compare the fuels alone. That is also why the total distance was 5000km. I thought anything less may not lead to accurate results eg a week of green lights :bowrofl: versus a week of traffic jams :rant: .

I know 8000 is Mobil's equivalent but it will be interesting to see if I get similar results.

Just filled up with $75 worth of V power Racing.
Im hoping to see some more k's from this, then again for the Extra $10 in fuel id wanna hope so

All of you guys are wrong
if you want the best ecnomy and power, you gotta fill up with liquid NOS!
Then you'll notice some difference


Also, why are people saying that running 95 "premium" fuel is better/cleaner for the engine?

where did this fact come from
i thought "premium" is just a name, its the same fuel - higher octane - for the cars that needed (modded/Performance), like V-Power.. its a cool name. woot

how does a flammable liquid clean an engine? did they chuck in some ajax?

i guess these sales techniques are working..

someone correct me if i am wrong

hey guys quick question. My car is tuned to 98 ron with a unichip. If I fill up using 100 ron will there be an improvement in power and economy now that my car is tuned to run a higher octane fuel? Or will it have no impact because my car is tuned to run 98 and 98 only?

Assuming you had 98 octane fuel in the tank when it was tuned - then the tuner most probably would have advanced your timing until it started to ping, and then backed it off a bit so it would be safe.

Until you get your car retuned again, it will always run that amount of timing, regardless of the fuel used. Put 91 octane in your tank, and you risk having a car that will ping. Put 110 octane in your tank and there will be no difference in performance because the your ignition timing will not change by itself.

Assuming you had 98 octane fuel in the tank when it was tuned - then the tuner most probably would have advanced your timing until it started to ping, and then backed it off a bit so it would be safe.

Until you get your car retuned again, it will always run that amount of timing, regardless of the fuel used. Put 91 octane in your tank, and you risk having a car that will ping. Put 110 octane in your tank and there will be no difference in performance because the your ignition timing will not change by itself.

dam :( shoulda tuned it to higher octane! thanks for the reply

dam :( shoulda tuned it to higher octane! thanks for the reply
If you got it tuned for 100 ron then you'd need to run 100 ron all the time to avoid pinging. 100 ron is very expensive.

If you got it tuned for 100 ron then you'd need to run 100 ron all the time to avoid pinging. 100 ron is very expensive.

yeah i know.

yeah i know.

Very expensive with very little to gain over using 98 ron. I used it once, and from memory I think it was about 8 or 9 cents dearer than 98ron, which itself was about 10c dearer than ULP.

Not worth it IMHO.

Very expensive with very little to gain over using 98 ron. I used it once, and from memory I think it was about 8 or 9 cents dearer than 98ron, which itself was about 10c dearer than ULP.

Not worth it IMHO.
It's a lot more than that now. In QLD it's $1.45/L, which last time I filled up was 34c more than 98 ron. In NSW it's about $1.54/L.

how does a flammable liquid clean an engine? did they chuck in some ajax?

the main culprit in dirtying up your engine is the residue left from burnt, partially-burnt and unburnt fuel. if the fuel is designed to burn cleaner, then there will be less residue left in your engine.

it doesn't really clean your engine, it just makes less mess.

cheers,
.wook

Unstickying this one, has been dormant for a while

what would be a good piggyback to use if you want to just be able to tune for the better fuel.

at the moment im thinking of going back to uni so paying $1200 for the intercptor kit and install may be a bit to much.

is getting just a cheaper chip worth it if im not planing on doing any more serious mods?

how do you guys know if you're not running 10%ethyl alcohol or 5% water? Do you al really trust the sevice station proprietors that much? I filled up at a servo in Sydney recently and was going to strip the car sor parts so I drained the tank when I got home and the fuel tasted better than some of the bourbon you can buy around town.
Not to put too fine a point on it but the alcohol taste was really strong. I should add that there were no signs around the servo about alcohol in the petrol. Just selling it as ULP!

you tasted the petrol???? :nuts:

lmfao.. who the hell tastes petrol.

thats hilarious.

:bowrofl: :bowrofl:

rofl....tasted the petrol

rofl....tasted the petrol
United's E10 is not too bad, but their normal unleaded is pretty foul. BP and Shell have dropped in quality lately, but Mobil's still pretty good.

(How else am I to fill up my car?)

what would be a good piggyback to use if you want to just be able to tune for the better fuel.

at the moment im thinking of going back to uni so paying $1200 for the intercptor kit and install may be a bit to much.

is getting just a cheaper chip worth it if im not planing on doing any more serious mods?

I don't think there is a piggyback ECU on the market that will give you change from $1200 installed and tuned. Sorry mate.

Curious all yo where you get this info that there is no knock sensor when the workshop manual for th and tj says that the probable cause for detonation is a faulty knock sensor??

oh and why does the rattle in my con rod reduce power if its not tripping the knock sensor eh???

Prove me wrong boys!! :poke:
I find it really bizzare that no-one has responded to this post directly. Everyone keeps saying that the 3rd Gen has no knock sensor and the 2nd Gen and 380 does, but no response to this post?

Now, I am not doubting the information about which models had knock sensors and which didn't, just curious about the workshop manual's claims.

Could it be that some of the ealier 3.5Ls came out with knock sensors and then they were shelved? Maybe they are on the TH, but not the TJ onwards? Maybe they were in the original design but didn't end up in the production model? For Example I had a 2000 KJ Verada Xi and it had a lid to its battery box. But everyone was telling me that the KJ Veradas did not come out with a lid on the Battery Box, only the earlier models did. I even saw several KJs and they didn't have one. I also asked at a wrecker for a KJ Battery Box lid, and was told they never existed, although the KE/KF is identical to the one I had and fits the TJ nicely. I had only recently written off my 2000 KJ Verada Xi so I was unable to show them. I was looking for the Battery Box lid for my replacement car which is a 2003 TJ Ralliart Magna.

Maybe this is why some people are claiming gains and other aren't? Food for thought.

Another thought just occured to me, could it be that the TH and TJ were available with a 3.0L engine? The operator's manual lists both engine types.

I find it really bizzare that no-one has responded to this post directly. Everyone keeps saying that the 3rd Gen has no knock sensor and the 2nd Gen and 380 does, but no response to this post?

Now, I am not doubting the information about which models had knock sensors and which didn't, just curious about the workshop manual's claims.

Could it be that some of the ealier 3.5Ls came out with knock sensors and then they were shelved? Maybe they are on the TH, but not the TJ onwards? Maybe they were in the original design but didn't end up in the production model? For Example I had a 2000 KJ Verada Xi and it had a lid to its battery box. But everyone was telling me that the KJ Veradas did not come out with a lid on the Battery Box, only the earlier models did. I even saw several KJs and they didn't have one. I also asked at a wrecker for a KJ Battery Box lid, and was told they never existed, although the KE/KF is identical to the one I had and fits the TJ nicely. I had only recently written off my 2000 KJ Verada Xi so I was unable to show them. I was looking for the Battery Box lid for my replacement car which is a 2003 TJ Ralliart Magna.

Maybe this is why some people are claiming gains and other aren't? Food for thought.

Another thought just occured to me, could it be that the TH and TJ were available with a 3.0L engine? The operator's manual lists both engine types.

You do realise that just having a knock sensor does not mean you can use higher octane
fuel to get more power. The 2nd gens and 380's also have higher compression engines
(10:1 as opposed to 9:1). The 2nd gen user manual actually states that:
power : 120kW (normal Unleaded)
power : 124kW (96ron Unleaded)
The torque also increased by 9Nm.

None of the 3rd gen manuals I've seen had that information. It only lists the power and
torque for normal unleaded petrol.

Correct. If you have a look at the wiring diagrams for the ECU/engine electronics, there is no knock sensor. Nor is there any provision for one.

You do realise that just having a knock sensor does not mean you can use higher octane
fuel to get more power. The 2nd gens and 380's also have higher compression engines
(10:1 as opposed to 9:1). The 2nd gen user manual actually states that:
power : 120kW (normal Unleaded)
power : 124kW (96ron Unleaded)
The torque also increased by 9Nm.

None of the 3rd gen manuals I've seen had that information. It only lists the power and
torque for normal unleaded petrol.
Also of note is that the 3.0L motors have an advance of 15 degrees as opposed to the 3.5L of 10 degrees, both plus or minus 3 degrees. This then allows the knock sensor to retard the timing to "make it safe". Whereas the 3.5L is already factory retarded by 5 degrees because it has no knock sensor.

Yes I did realise about the compression, but thanks for mentioning it, somebody else reading this may not have realised and this is a forum for expanding on ideas. I hope I don't sound like one of those ..... "WOW a higher octane number must mean more power, even from my lawn mower, I will be able to do a 10sec quarter with my ride on!". I am no chemist, but I understand the basics of what octane means. Changing octane on its own will not have any benefit unless the motor is adjusted or adjusts itself to the new fuel. Well that said, there may be minor gains achieved from the cleaning of injectors and valves, etc.

A little bit more information ..... I have a RalliArt Magna for starters, meaning 9.4:1 compression ratio. I have also had a Sprintex supercharger kit installed, which includes the addition of a piggyback ECU, which will allow me to advance the crap out of my motor, but by the time my ear hears the knock, it will mean the engine is knocking on death's door. Which is why I am interested in the safety net of the Knock Sensor. For more information on the chaos that is my mind see - http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52542

Correct. If you have a look at the wiring diagrams for the ECU/engine electronics, there is no knock sensor. Nor is there any provision for one.
A question comes to mind, could a 3.0L ECU be used on a 3.5L? Just spitballing, please don't shoot me down. I just do not know the main differences between the two motors. Both motors use that same number of injectors, they both use the same MAF sensor, could there be a lot more similarities? The 3.0L ECU has already been factory advance to 15 degrees and has the provision for a Knock Sensor. Next, has the 3.0L ECU been unlocked? If so the maps could be changed to those that are in the Locked 3.5L ECU, to make allowances for the difference in Compression Ratios, Injector Sizes, etc.

Or for that matter, could a 380 ECU be used to control the 3.5L 3rd Gen Magnas?

Food for thought.

']And if your smart. You fill up on tuesday/Wednesday for $1.20ish.
By the time late Wed/Thurs comes, normal petrol is $1.20

haha i remember that.

Hey lowrider, I know this is a little late but have you never taken petrol out of your car? Occasionally when doing this you will get a little petrol in your mouth from the siphon hose. So yes I did taste the petrol but my point here was that the servo was selling petrol with alchol in it while not telling the public that it was doing so. Flamin burglars

Unleaded... ?

Damn... I've been using Diesel. :nuts:

I guess those running LPG must be laughing at everyone on this thread?

I have NEW BMW owners were recommended to use 91. and yes this is from BMW's recommendation.

airplanes use Jet1 type nothing like our standard petrol.

I have ran 95ron and found almost nothing much improve. Is probably my "feeling I paid more" so there should be an improvement.

Its all advertising folks, but ok if your engine is tune for it yes, probably benefits your car. but not on a standard magna for 3rd gen. I pump the cheapest I can pump, or havent people realised the price is now so high?

To be honest if it goes any higher my option are to force to convert to LPG or sell my Magna.
My Lancer is getting more value for the amount of fuel I pump into it. Oh and it is running on 91.

while not wanting to add to the confusion of this whole 3rd gen knock sensor high octane arguement, i have a point to add:

for the record, in my car, i get zero performance gains and zero if anything kms range tank increase.

was talking to a mechanic friend a few months ago about putting higher octane in my car to get more kms and power and mentioned no knock sensor so the engine wont make the best of it, he said - well if its got no knock sensor then its probably the best bet to run higher octane fuel all the time!
i looked at him confused and he said that coz the motor wont know its pinging / knocking etc from a bad batch of fuel its not going to be able to correct itself and you risk big damage to your engine.

which made sence really.
he also went as far as saying DONT run the 98 through it because thats just overkill so to speak, just run 95 through it all the time.

and since that conversation, iv only run 91, with an occasional 95 in there.


oh and to the service station post about water in the tanks:
working in a petrol station i know that water tests are done EVERY DAY (at least at my site) to check for water in the tanks.
one servo i was working at in perth, had 500 LITRES of water in the tank and when i asked my boss about it, she said it was still below the pickup for the fuel in the tank so none would be getting into peoples cars.

also - i only buy fuel from busy sites, quiet ones and less known brand name sites etc seem to result in a poorly running car for me.

from my experience in my JDM GDI Diamante, i got far WORSE fuel consumption using 98 instead of 95. as per the trip computer, on 95 i was getting 9.0-9.5k per L. on 98 it was 7.5-8k per L in identical driving environment.

Now i have no idea, as the car being from Japan is meant to run on 100, but it was consistently much worse on 98.

a friend of mines father was the service manager for a subaru/porsche/volvo dealer until a year or two back, and is now the s/m for a nissan/peugeot dealer, and the manufacturers recommend 95 over 98. and he said many customers noted fuel consumption was worse on 98 than on 95.

now i have the Verada/Diamante Xi i'll only be using 91 and the fuel consumption is great!

Correct. If you have a look at the wiring diagrams for the ECU/engine electronics, there is no knock sensor. Nor is there any provision for one.

I can understand why people are confused. This attachment is from the TJ manual, showing the knock sensor(A63) and I can only find the knock sensor shown here and on inspection procedure 20 which takes you no further with the knock sensor other than mentioning it being faulty.....go figure.

Hey lowrider, I know this is a little late but have you never taken petrol out of your car? Occasionally when doing this you will get a little petrol in your mouth from the siphon hose. So yes I did taste the petrol but my point here was that the servo was selling petrol with alchol in it while not telling the public that it was doing so. Flamin burglars

probably has a higher percentage than most beer lol


Unleaded... ?

Damn... I've been using Diesel. :nuts:
:bowrofl: how about cooking oil lol

my weekend car absolutely loves the synergy8000 from mobil, but the problem is i only know of 2 mobil stations with a tank range from my normal travels and only 1 sells it, the car however did not exhibit any advantages on 6000, over say other premiums, obviously since its not a 98octane.

I dont know if it was pointed out TUFFTR but per octane there is 100points, so a bottle that says its ads 60-70points mreans it adds, roughly, 0.7octane to your fuel. considering what fuel additives do to spark plugs, if you really wanna clean it out, good old methylated spirits is the best/cheapest choice, if you can get it, a 50:1 ratio 98octane to methanol really helps clean those valves and inlet ports once in a while.

^^^^

i thought metho was baaaad for plastic injectors..
melts them pretty badly from what i hear?

metho is just 95+% ethanol, and the rest methanol

yes ethanol has a negative effect on rubber seals and fuel lines, but only when it makes up highish percentages of the fuel in the tank, i didnt say this cuz i forgot but the old trick of putting a cap full of metho in a full tank, to help disperse water in the tank, is all i was referring to. Just a cap full every not and then (maybe 50ml)

methanol is not the best for a stock fuel system, but every now and then it doesnt hurt. Only thing to make sure is you dont dose it up too much, being that 1) methanol is quite hard to ignite in a combustion chamber, and 2) only provides half the energy release per weight compared to petrol, so adding methanol to your tank, actually leans out the fuel mixture chemically, so without a tune, and a knock sensor there is a limit to how much your stock tune can compensate for methanol treated fuel, so like a i said, no richer then 1:50 parts with petrol.

but a dirty fuel system will thank you for it.

metho is just 95+% ethanol, and the rest methanol

yes ethanol has a negative effect on rubber seals and fuel lines, but only when it makes up highish percentages of the fuel in the tank, i didnt say this cuz i forgot but the old trick of putting a cap full of metho in a full tank, to help disperse water in the tank, is all i was referring to. Just a cap full every not and then (maybe 50ml)

methanol is not the best for a stock fuel system, but every now and then it doesnt hurt. Only thing to make sure is you dont dose it up too much, being that 1) methanol is quite hard to ignite in a combustion chamber, and 2) only provides half the energy release per weight compared to petrol, so adding methanol to your tank, actually leans out the fuel mixture chemically, so without a tune, and a knock sensor there is a limit to how much your stock tune can compensate for methanol treated fuel, so like a i said, no richer then 1:50 parts with petrol.

but a dirty fuel system will thank you for it.

When you buy E10, you are buying a large amount of ethanol - 10%, so at 10 litres of fuel, you get 1 litre of ethanol.