Attn all im now supercharged :badgrin:

have been for about 2 weeks but just picked up the car yesterday and its been 35deg here in melb.... yay it hasnt burnt down yet...:bowrofl:



anyway its running great, but the performance is poor partly due to the heat but mainly the tune, as my car has exhaust mods etc...

my options are

1st option they area dealer for the same company that makes sprintex's ecu's and think it may be possible to edit that and custom tune it, very similar to a uni chip for examlpe mad in same country lol


2nd option... is to ditch the sprintex ecu completley and install a microtech, they tell me that then this will give them full access to pretty much every thing that can be tuned/adjusted in the engine even fuel ing cut rev limit etc... and leavving the factory ecu to handle the trans and whatever else it does...




*edit*
orig post too long just need info regarding ecu

Congratulations on the install mate :)

xr6t! hahaha.. was he in 5th gear or something?:bowrofl:

Those 20's must be weighing you down?!?

You should sell them to me :P

If you get a full replacement ECU you can say goodbye to your warranty on the supercharger. This is the problem with the sprintex kit. Personally I'd get a full replacement ECU, I mean you're looking at probably another 20-30kW ATW.

By all accounts - microtech are a pretty good ECU, but the magnas are pedantic little beasties, and you might run into some problems with yours being auto.

AFAIK - not auto trans magnas have been fitted with a full replacement ECU yet. For the sake of being able to get a bit of manufacturer support (and advice from the owner of a certain workshop in NT), a Haltech might be a safer option.

All in all - congrats on the upgrade, and good luck in your quest to squeeze a few more ponies out of the setup.

Yeh i would pick whichever doesn't void your warranty. Though replacing the whole ecu at a sprintex outlet they might retain it?

congrats dude.


Yeh i would pick whichever doesn't void your warranty. Though replacing the whole ecu at a sprintex outlet they might retain it?

there is no other ECU that you can run without saying good by to the warranty. not even if they get the authorised installer to install one.

Well done! *Blonde Voice*Your car is like SO hot right now... :p

sprintex can keep their warranty... found out that dad has connections lol... ;)

as far as i know sprintex only warranty the blower and asociated bits as my car has done xxxx ammount of k's not the motor and trans... thats cool..

id prefer the car running 100% rather than comprimised just to keep a warranty which i'll void by doing something else anyway...



Black Beard By all accounts - microtech are a pretty good ECU, but the magnas are pedantic little beasties, and you might run into some problems with yours being auto.

AFAIK - not auto trans magnas have been fitted with a full replacement ECU yet. For the sake of being able to get a bit of manufacturer support (and advice from the owner of a certain workshop in NT), a Haltech might be a safer option.

All in all - congrats on the upgrade, and good luck in your quest to squeeze a few more ponies out of the setup.

the local tuning place reckons the microtech will run alongside the factory ecu but allow them to make better more adjustments than with the piggyback style, im kinda believing them atm, but if i hurry up i can go and see them and see what they reckon after they check my car out better...

i was reccomended to toss the lot and motec :bowrofl: but i have limited $$$$ and wanna look into water/meth inj and new battery.... and just dont have the $$$ for that....

just out of interest i found out the blower is manufactured by opcon in sweeden, cars half volvo now :cry: im unsure of the model though, i'd like to find out as i have a lot of calculations to do ;)

As it happens I am well into the development of a programmable progressive water/methanol injection setup.

It checks the duty cycle of your injectors, calculates the amount of water required based on this (checks the flowrate of the injectors you have supplied, the number of injectors, and outputs a progressive PWM signal to a specified pump and nozzle combo with a known flowrate).

Probably will have settable trip RPM / Injector duty / maybe Boost Pressure switch and a whole heap of other things as well. Shows the duty cycle of the injectors + instantaneous flow in cc/sec at 250ms intervals, along with the output of the water injection pump.

Simple setup, you just hold down the 'enter' button when you turn it on, and it gets into setup mode, you use the up/down buttons to change a menu item, press enter to get into it, adjust the value, press enter to save it and return to the next menu item.

The water injection pump will be either a shurflo or a GM washer pump (that fits in the standard washer bottle next to the stock pump) and a spraying systems nozzle.

I'm currently writing this onto a microcontroller, but I think the code is getting a little cramped (along with running out of inputs/outputs - due to a parallel LCD)

All displayed on a 16 X 2 alphanumeric reverse Backlit LCD screen that you can mount in a spare single din space or (if you have a non-operative centre trip computer - like the AWD's) you can fit it into an exec one bought from the wreckers.

I'll have some more performance data and some photos soon, when I get a little more time :P

Pump and nozzle are about $70 or so from Autospeed shop, ballpark price on the water injection controller will probably be around $250 or so. Very cheap. Will drive a 10A motor and also a dash LED if you like to know when the pump is on as well.

Trying to make it as good as possible, most of the water/methanol injection systems just use a boost pressure switch (YUK) so you go from no water to stuffing too much in.

Cheers
Heath Young

as far as i know sprintex only warranty the blower and asociated bits as my car has done xxxx ammount of k's not the motor and trans... thats cool..
oh really? I was under the impression that if the blower causes catastrophic engine failure (like throws a piston or something) then the whole engine is covered. I will have to confirm that.

for interest, how many k's has your awd done?

cheers,
.wook

Geeze good work dude! Congratulations


Got nothing on my Stock 3.0 litre though...

oh really? I was under the impression that if the blower causes catastrophic engine failure (like throws a piston or something) then the whole engine is covered. I will have to confirm that.

for interest, how many k's has your awd done?

cheers,
.wook

i'm pretty sure it depends on how old the motor is? i think the newer models have full coverage, older models get warranty on all the supplied parts

i'm pretty sure it depends on how old the motor is? i think the newer models have full coverage, older models get warranty on all the supplied parts
but the newer 3.5 models are still what, mid-2005, so 18 months old? I've got less than 70k km on the 03 TJ, so I'm hoping it's at least covered if it blows up.

.wook

congrats dude. and enjoylol

Congrats man!!! Hope it's all working out for ya

decided to go microtech, so the next step is just to throw o the microtech and custom tune and custom cai as im told that air thingy will now be redundant with the microtech ecu... ahh more bloody money lol

after that drive it for a bit and then get the water/meth inj happening and maybe pulley and few other small things and retune then...


warranty on motor dont apply if the car had done xxx km dont know how many but i got 107k on mine and know driveline isnt covered... thats why the sent such a safe tune though just so the average person dosent crack a piston, it was over 35deg here sitting in traffic with the aircon on flatout and flooring it and it ran just like a normal car didnt cook it or blow up etc... ;) and thats what they want... the timing is very retarded and running tad rich just to look after it... bahhh thats going to change...


did some basic timing against when it was std same test exactly except when tested stock it was 15deg tested at 36deg this time :( it was 0.8sec faster and thats good considering during gear changes about 15deg timing is getting pulled on top of the unknown ammount over 5k (damn tune) and basically the crap tune throughout the entire rev range, still goes better than std but atm its onlu strong from 3500-4500 oer 5k is a waste and under 3k its very flat... so taking all that into consideration and the temps its a good result on paper, but im not happy till its running 100% then i'll take it down the 1/4 and we can have a real comparison vs std

Let's hope things get better for you. $7k spent and only a small gain over stock is dissapointing to say the least. Shame really you now have to spend probably another $3k-$5k? on the computer and tuning + extra bits, so it will be over $10k total? Anyway keep us posted champ.

Let's hope things get better for you. $7k spent and only a small gain over stock is dissapointing to say the least. Shame really you now have to spend probably another $3k-$5k? on the computer and tuning + extra bits, so it will be over $10k total? Anyway keep us posted champ.





:shock: for that price i would've gone tclol. it seem like everyone is goin the forcefed way:2cool:

Let's hope things get better for you. $7k spent and only a small gain over stock is dissapointing to say the least. Shame really you now have to spend probably another $3k-$5k? on the computer and tuning + extra bits, so it will be over $10k total? Anyway keep us posted champ.


nah im used to wasting $$$ on crap cars, but i have what i have wanted for along time now


now sit down and be prepared for the shock.....

supercharger kit $6990
extras (service trans cooler plugs leads etc...) $1500
exhaust system full stainless extractors custom other stuff $1600
microtech ecu supply fitted tuned dynoed $1700
accessories (custom cai catch can and stuff) $600
water injection $500

then from there on the list goes on and on and on and on custom made intercooler, pulley retunes, some hpc coating possible NOS kit this that and then some....

i would have had the same and possibly much higher costs going turbo too...

i dont care though, i work for a reason and thats to make money so i can enjoy myself...





in the end i'll proably have spent total 30k modding a magna (not just performance mods) lol


but interms of the performance gains, im not chasing massive bang for buck as i could have brought a 9sec car for whay i have spent recently* (but thats not what i want) so im happy with the way things are going


i'll keep all posted on how things go in the next few weeks witht the up coming mods


*friend from work recently paid 12k for a car that has recently run a 9.8 1/4 :shock:
http://image-cache.boostcruising.com/database/genthumbs/720/960/readersrides/files/post-58726-11678099601640113163.jpg

I will just say that for that money (looks to be about $12-$13k) you could of done a twin turbo setup like Black Beards. I understand you don't want to do that I just thought I'd point it out for other people. Tho I don't think Black Beards included an ECU because he already had one. Anyway, should be quick when it's done.

do the awd's have room for a twin turbo setup? i think ive read somewhere that they dont

I will just say that for that money (looks to be about $12-$13k) you could of done a twin turbo setup like Black Beards. I understand you don't want to do that I just thought I'd point it out for other people. Tho I don't think Black Beards included an ECU because he already had one. Anyway, should be quick when it's done.

Not quite. But getting very close to it.

Another one lol Good work,

thanks for picking up my pulley cover, i'll need to grab it off you sometime this week.

And yeah and as soon as you find out a cheaper solution to tune the ECU i want to be one of the first to know, very interested.

TZABOY was also telling about the PWR inline intercoolers which would possibly be able to work off the sprintex kit aswell. I can't remeber exactly as I accidently deleted his PM.

Another one lol Good work,

thanks for picking up my pulley cover, i'll need to grab it off you sometime this week.

And yeah and as soon as you find out a cheaper solution to tune the ECU i want to be one of the first to know, very interested.

TZABOY was also telling about the PWR inline intercoolers which would possibly be able to work off the sprintex kit aswell. I can't remeber exactly as I accidently deleted his PM.
how inconsiderate of you, biatch

yeah the pwr liquid to air intercooler is the path i will be venturing down. going a FMIC will produce lag as you have to presurise a lot of pipe and a big cooler. The barrel keeps intake temps consistant unlike a big cooler and also makes the distance the air has to travel a lot shorter. to fit you will have to remove the stock airbox and go CAI to free up some space to fit the barrel and plumbing.

You plumb the intercooler off here . . . .

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2958/andrewsbloweryo9.jpg

this is the kit you can use. spoke with a PWR techie at the nats yesterday and he said it was the way to go on a supercharged car, especially a car running low boost. as soon as i said supercharger he said barrel even before i said what i was cooling and what boost i was running . . . .


http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7366/pwrcoolerae5.jpg

i remember when the kits were new and people were saying you can't intercool them they're crap etc etc etc. Mine gets installed tomorrow week and tuned on my unichip so hopefully i can get some awesome numbers on the stock blower before i go intercooling.

Have you had a look at the internal design of the manifold etc? You couldn't plumb back this way, its the bypass valve. The bypass valve (strangely enough) bypasses the supercharger by allowing compressed air back into the inlet of the supercharger.

Here are some pics with the lid 'orf...

You would need to block the top 'lip' and cut a hole and weld another pipe to where the intake runners drop down. You would need to get some serious pipe size there to reduce restriction as well, but if you ran it in this fashion you could run it at the front of the engine.

You still also need to figure out how to fit a bypass valve - I would (if I were you) use the bypass valve side (RHS) as the return to the intake runners, and use the other side as the source, and seal off the lip.

Water injection is a far cheaper and easier way of cooling these buggers down - don't bother with methanol unless you have an underfuelling problem. Which water injection system for $500? Is it mapped or boost sense only?

Cheers
Heath Young

Water injection is a far cheaper and easier way of cooling these buggers down - don't bother with methanol unless you have an underfuelling problem. Which water injection system for $500? Is it mapped or boost sense only?

Cheers
Heath Young

it's a kit that i've seen around not sure how it works (me thinks boost operated) but high pressure to atomise the water/meth mix etc...

going to tune the microtech 1st and see how it goes then go from there...

also going to check the boost im getting as im convinced it's less than i think max 5psi i reckon but then again how would i know lol


i think it can be intercooled a sandwich type built into the manifold but geeeeess the $$$$ would add up big time...

There's a huge difference in performance with my car on hot days versus cold days so it's pretty obvious it would benefit from some kind of cooling.

I've had a look at all of the cooling options but intercooling the Sprintex units looks hard if not impossible as you have to somehow plumb into the charged air, cool it and plumb back into the plenum. As there is no existing plumbing other than the bypass valve, I can't see how this could be done easily.

Water injection on the other hand seems to be relatively straight forward and gives at least the same or better results (20-30% after re-tune) without the plumbing headaches. The "Snowperformance" injection kits.... http://www.snowperformance.net/products.php?p_cat=126 are progressive, cost $399US and are controlled by the MAF sensor. They also have a boost level controlled kit.

Hey Heath, sounds like you're well on the way to developing one yourself. Keep us posted!

.

No problems - the snow performance design isn't a bad idea - but my design using injector pulse width already takes into account how much fuel is coming into the engine based on intake air temperature, engine temperature, altitude, ignition advance/retard - not just how much air is coming in.

The only things that my design does not take into account is fuel pressure (and hence flow) changes with boost (I could add a MAP sensor) and pump supply voltage changes vs. voltage (this is not a major issue as the voltage is regulated by the alternator)

Snow performance kit is a great start though.

My design also uses the GMH water pump and spraying systems nozzle (with checkvalve to stop dripping - also has the advantages of pressurising the lines) available from autospeed. The pump also fits in the standard washer resovoir (you have to drill one more hole) - uses the spot where the pump for the rear screen on the wagon is fitted.

You don't need to use methanol as it doesn't help the cooling (it actually has a lower latent heat of vapourisation - it it absorbs less heat than water) but rather increases the amount of fuel. It also has some rather nasty effects on aluminium over the long term. The sprintex ecu controls detonation by fuel dumping, so you drop the temperatures, you use less fuel too.

Design is progressing well, and has an LCD display to show the programming (rather than needing a computer or using potentiometers) Looks purdy :)

Cheers
Heath Young

So Heath, wher abouts will you place the injector nozzle with the system you're developing?

.

Prior to the throttle body, which removes issues with siphoning (and the requirement for check valves/solenoids etc, along with haing to overcome boost pressure.

Probably where the PCV pipe is, as it points straight into the throttle body mouth.

Cheers
Heath Young

Prior to the throttle body, which removes issues with siphoning (and the requirement for check valves/solenoids etc, along with haing to overcome boost pressure.

Probably where the PCV pipe is, as it points straight into the throttle body mouth.

Cheers
Heath Young

'scuse my ignorance, but would that create any danger of the finely atomised droplets collecting/condensing on the throttle butterfly?

Prior to the throttle body, which removes issues with siphoning (and the requirement for check valves/solenoids etc, along with haing to overcome boost pressure.

Probably where the PCV pipe is, as it points straight into the throttle body mouth.

Cheers
Heath Young

Apparently, locating it there as opposed to after compression, will reduce the temperature by a further 10-15*C so from that perspective it's a good location. There was some concern on the Snowperformance forum that placing it ahead of the supercharger may cause issues with the supercharger, but the tech at Snowperformance reckons it would only be an issue with impeller type superchargers.

cthulhu, I think the injector is only really spraying under acceleration and the flow of air, heat and the fact that it's atomised until it's almost like a gas means it evaporates rapidly.

.

'scuse my ignorance, but would that create any danger of the finely atomised droplets collecting/condensing on the throttle butterfly?

Adding to what ReallyArt said, as air passes over the throttle valve (butterfly) a boundary layer of air is present that acts as a barrier, with the finely atomised water following like a gas it'll mostly avoid contact with the valve. While some water would/might come in contact with the valve, it would most likely be a minuscule amount. :D

Yep. The airflow will be so great that the settling will be negligible.

Design is working well on a test bench, accuracy of the injector duty cycle is 0.2% - at 300Hz input, which correlates to 18,000 rpm for a 6 cylinder engine - not likely. It gets out by about 0.5% at around 600Hz (36,000rpm). All of this is fairly academic since it isn't going to happen. Inaccuracies are due to the resolution available with the clock speeds of the microprocessors.

Its playing nicely at the moment, pulse width calcs vs. pump PWM calculations are nice and linear as well.

Optoisolators for input as well, keeps nasty spikes out of the circuit. They induce a 2us error rise and fall, but considering the pulse widths, this is 5/10 of ****all.

At the moment you can program minimum trip injector pulse width from 0 - 99% in 255 steps (higher resolution than just %) along with the maximum injector pulse width.

The pump PWM output is 70-100% spread linearly between the two max/min settings. I will set a minimum/maximum pump PWM and some error checking soon. Had to upgrade to a different microcontroller because it ran out of memory :P

Cheers
Heath Young

So are you saying that you'll tell the device the maximum pulse width of your injectors and it will inject 70% for 0 duty on the trigger signal, ramping linearly in 255 steps up to 100% at 100% duty of the trigger?

Or are you saying there are 255 load points between 0-100% duty cycle of your input signal, and you can choose how much water to inject at any load site? Assuming you can turn the pump off completely until you're at step X/255?

I got lost a bit in your technojargon :)

Optoisolators for input as well, keeps nasty spikes out of the circuit. They induce a 2us error rise and fall, but considering the pulse widths, this is 5/10 of ****all.



I love it when you talk dirtylol

.

So are you saying that you'll tell the device the maximum pulse width of your injectors and it will inject 70% for 0 duty on the trigger signal, ramping linearly in 255 steps up to 100% at 100% duty of the trigger?

Or are you saying there are 255 load points between 0-100% duty cycle of your input signal, and you can choose how much water to inject at any load site? Assuming you can turn the pump off completely until you're at step X/255?

I got lost a bit in your technojargon :)

No problems...

For example, you set the minimum injector duty cycle as the start point (say 50%) and the maximum injector duty cycle as the end point (say 95%).

Now, the water injection pump only sprays nicely at (say - I still have to test this) 70% PWM (which at 13.8v equates to 9.66V - to get this a bit more accurate I may use one of the ADC's in the chip to sample the voltage and regulate accordingly))

So you spread the pumps 30% (from 70%-100%) across the range of 45% of the injectors.

The main reason I am not using load points is that the flow out of the pump once up to pressure is fairly linear, and the source of the data (injector duty) is proportional to the amount of water needed.

But I will say I am not using load points yet. I thought about this, and I may do this as revision 2. This would give a FULLY programmable setup, and allow non-linear curves. I may even write a routine to display the curve, and the point it is on (flashing) along with the injector duty cycle and pump pwm %. Load sites would allow you to turn the pump off completely until X/255 (of course - 0% PWM is OFF). I need to look at the load sites available on the chip, I believe that there are 255 sites 1 byte each (255) on the EEPROM.

Ah dammit. I'll have to have a look now at it. :). Revision 2.0. (From 1.8) :P

Cheers
Heath Young

so by the sounds of this its going to be much more advanced than the $500 kits that just spray water in when activated either by boost or full throttle..... well... when its all sorted put me somewhere on your list :)

i was keen on methanol cos it sounds cool:bowrofl: but in reality having flash fires where i cant see the flame cos i had to store it in the shed, and getting some on a sunday isnt cool.... neither is being tuned for it and not having any... water is every where though so its a quick top up when you fill up the petrol!! good work

OK - version 2.0 is under construction...

250 Load points (correlates to a resolution of 0.25% duty cycle)
Remaining 6 memory allocations will be reserved for other use.

Within these 250 load points, you can select an amount of pump duty (with a minimum as set by the user), so your duty jumps from 0 (off) to say 70% (178) (by pressing the up/down setting buttons), press enter to save, and it jumps to the next load point with the previous points value already loaded (if none already entered).

Gives you more flexibility in your mapping, but it does make for more work in setup.

Cheers
Heath Young

Time to market? :)

I just finished programming it, so I need to test, come up with a PCB layout (as opposed to a crappy veroboard), bug test it thoroughly, write some documentation, overcome some minor addressing issues (that are really giving me the shytes - trying to keep the code under 2K as every time I go over the LCD stops working - BAH!)

It also needs a box, some better power supply suppression etc etc. Its still a prototype on vero at the moment :P

It is working, and the load sites are behaving as expected.

Pump resolution is ok(ish) - to get more control I may design a small switchmode powersupply so that you can call upon 15V@50W (gives you more pressure (finer spray) and more resolution)

I can post some photos but they won't be very exciting...

Cheers
Heath Young

I for one wouldn't mind seeing the code, unless it's all secret squirrel..

I would prefer to keep the code to myself, once it is released on the public domain, then you waive all rights of ownership. :doubt:

Added a routine that populates the next load point with the previous points data (if next point is zero and previous point isn't) to make shaping a curve far easier and quicker to get through all of those load points.

Programming/Mapping is NOT at the moment in real time. Working on this one now...

Cheers
Heath Young

Real-time programming is turning out to be a major PITA - main problem is that you need to hold the map point stable, then adjust it and watch the changes on a dyno. Not so easily done.

Unfortunatly it looks like it is going to be a case of set a base map, and refine from there.

Mind you, for the completed price of the controller, its a very minor tradeoff.

Its easier to tune than it sounds too :)

Cheers
Heath Young