.....

Sometimes you need to rely on your own skill and abilities to control a car, without electronic gizmos to try and do the job. :D

380 is better equipped, and better built - but lacking vsc (esp, esc, espn. cnn etc) may be worthy of consideration.

Between the 380 and the VE, I think the clear winner would have to be the BF Falcon :P. Try and get an XR6 NA with the six speed zf auto.

TJ,

Some things to think about...

1. A 380 is far superior to a stock Magna dynamically, particularly at highway speeds; see my post -
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44153

2. The Toyota Aurion comes with VSC (vehicle stability control) yet the 4 way comparison in Wheels stated the 380 as a lot more controllable than the Aurion, and was very good in the wet.

Point is, electronic aids may help in an emergency, or they may not make any difference. Each situation will be different. I can't think of a single situation where I haven't been able to control or avoid a situation in a modern car (manufactured in the last 15 years). None had any electronic stability aids apart from ABS.

It's really up to the individual driver and their confidence, skill and experience.

If you think ESC is a major advantage, by all means buy the VE.

I couldn't agree with Knothed more. I have a '94 KS Verada with no ESC, TC, EBD, BA, AIRBAGS, basically sh!t-f-all safety gear bar ABS. But I'm skilled enough to be able to control my car out of any real-world situation (and believe me I have).

Many of these so-called "safety" gear are really what could be called "idiot" gear for the more incompetent drivers; and given the large percentage of incompetent drivers on our roads, particularly in Melbourne (:rant:), is a reason why they are considered to be necessary.

Ignore the current adds by VicRoads, VACC etc when they urge new car buyers to ask for ESC in their car, it's nothing more than a blatant advertisement for the VE.

But as Knothed was saying, if you really think you need ESC, then by all means go the VE. It's a personal choice, no rights or wrongs. Though you will be stuck with a 4sp auto, and you'll have to do without rear parking sensors, bluetooth, sunroof, sports seats, 6-stack CD, climate control, fog lights, VRX body kit with sports zorst, a far sweeter sounding V6 with better fuel economy, and of course tiptronic 5sp auto or optional 5sp manual (the latter being the better of the 2 transmission options - and it's $2k cheaper).

ESP/ESC is a bandaid for poor driving skills. Car manufacturers like to make people think it will save their life by pushing it as a major safety advance. Good basic car handling and a skillful driver will be able to outdrive the ESP.... But if you feel the need go a BF 2 XT with the sports pack that gives you ESP, 17's, 6 speed ZF auto, Faimont Ghia spec suspension and a spoiler. That would be my first pick. And the great thing about the BF and VE i suppose is that you can turn the stability program off... Try doing that in an Aurion.

I dont believe electronic wizardy is a band aid for poor driving skills. im with defence and we run our own internal driver training. the fact is there will be cases where these things may be of benefit. curtain airbags is another example. no amount of driver training will stop someone else running a red light.
What i meant exactly was electronic systems that intervene with a vehicles dynamics. I agree totally with you on the point of airbags! :D

Sometimes you need to rely on your own skill and abilities to control a car, without electronic gizmos to try and do the job. :D

You made a really good point there. If you have to rely on so much technology when driving a car, what happens when u have mechanical/electrical failure? Why would you want to be so accustomed to something that has a chance of not working?

Oh and btw... Mitsubishi > Holden.... or Voxal :P

ESC also helps with black ice and cornering in the wet.
So does backing off and driving at appropriate speeds for the conditions....

no ones saying that it allows u to drive faster or any different to how conditions dictate, the fact is there will be situations were it will be handy. like the example above where the car came into my lane. if there was a barrier or vehicle in the way it could have been a lot worse.
People will become reliant on these electronic "nannies" to save them from the outside world. They assume that because they have ESP that it will save them no matter what... Thats an attitude that will instill itself amongst people. I am also saying that if you have ESP and also drive in an appropriate manner in any given situation the car will have a greater chance to be controlled. My issue is that people become way to reliant on these sorts of technology and will lose basic driving skills... If they ever had them to begin with.

If you want ESC why not get a car which has several other active & passive safety features rather then buying one car simply because it doesn't have one singular safety feature.

It may not always be him driving the car, it could be his children, his wife, brother, he could be sleepy, now you may not think you need it because your e-penis is so large... sorry... you driving skills are good enough, but it is never going to do any damage having it there.

In my honest opinion I think the 380 is a let down for the 600-MILLION spent on "ADAPTING" it to Australian conditions.

It may not always be him driving the car, it could be his children, his wife, brother, he could be sleepy, now you may not think you need it because your e-penis is so large... sorry... you driving skills are good enough, but it is never going to do any damage having it there.

In my honest opinion I think the 380 is a let down for the 600-MILLION spent on "ADAPTING" it to Australian conditions.
Exactly.

If i could swap my BA XR6T for a BF XR6T I would hands down.. simply becuase of the added safety features.

No matter how good a driver people think they are. There is always going to be a situation that will catch you unawares.. This is where things like ESC, traction control etc etc all come into play..

They are always active, always auto sensing whats going on.. Whereas, we humans are not.


Theres a nice little bit of footage on the net somewhere of a cop chase with an Evo (something) and multiple times the cops hit the side of the car to spin it out, but the active yaw control stabilises the car and allows the crim to keep running...

It may not always be him driving the car, it could be his children, his wife, brother, he could be sleepy, now you may not think you need it because your e-penis is so large... sorry... you driving skills are good enough, but it is never going to do any damage having it there.

In my honest opinion I think the 380 is a let down for the 600-MILLION spent on "ADAPTING" it to Australian conditions.

It's got nothing to do with "e-penises". I personally don't want an intrusive system interfering with my feel of what the car is doing in the middle of a corner or a violent action where the car's balance is all important. That's something I have as a skill that has come from Mallalla and AIR racing circuits some years ago.

Please put away your ego and recognise this is an individual choice particularly for ppl on this forum who are enthusiasts and are probably a little bit more "auto-aware".

In regard to the 380's development - no one asked for your opinion of whether you think the 380 is a success or not, and I, for one, disagree. Don't take this thread back to the days of 380 bashing. Start your own thread on that topic.

hahah check out all the Mark Webber's and Craig Lowndes's we have on the forum! Even the pro's bugger up from time to time, so what makes you think you guys will never make a mistake behind the wheel? ABS and ESP just might save your bacon one day, it might not too! But as someone else said its just 1 extra safety barrier that is there just in case! Also, as Mrmacomouto said, other people might be driving your car one day, you'd be pretty peeved if they put your pride and joy into a guard rail huh!


It's got nothing to do with "e-penises". I personally don't want an intrusive system interfering with my feel of what the car is doing in the middle of a corner or a violent action where the car's balance is all important. That's something I have as a skill that has come from Mallalla and AIR racing circuits some years ago.

umm Skaifey.. SORRY SORRY Knotched! why dont you just turn it off when your having a fang..? i dont care what you say man theres no way that you are sooo godly behind the wheel that it's impossible for you to one day **** up! ESP isnt really there to save people when they are having a fang around the twisties (hence why you can turn most of them off) ESP is there for that once in a million occasion when its pouring rain, someone cuts you off, you instinctively swerve to avoid, and your godly driving skills are caught having a nap. ESP might just save ya, it might not either but it doesnt hurt having it there juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust incase

Alot of you guys really need an ego check...

hahah check out all the Mark Webber's and Craig Lowndes's we have on the forum! Even the pro's bugger up from time to time, so what makes you think you guys will never make a mistake behind the wheel? ABS and ESP just might save your bacon one day, it might not too! But as someone else said its just 1 extra safety barrier that is there just in case! Also, as Mrmacomouto said, other people might be driving your car one day, you'd be pretty peeved if they put your pride and joy into a guard rail huh!



umm Skaifey.. SORRY SORRY Knotched! why dont you just turn it off when your having a fang..? i dont care what you say man theres no way that you are sooo godly behind the wheel that it's impossible for you to one day **** up! ESP isnt really there to save people when they are having a fang around the twisties (hence why you can turn most of them off) ESP is there for that once in a million occasion when its pouring rain, someone cuts you off, you instinctively swerve to avoid, and your godly driving skills are caught having a nap. ESP might just save ya, it might not either but it doesnt hurt having it there juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust incase

Alot of you guys really need an ego check...



Exactly!!!

I can't believe some of the comments in this thread. Scarey really.
I will make sure my car has all the safety gear I can get to avoid some of these so called 'expert' drivers.
No one.....read no one....is a perfect driver regardless of what they might think.
It doesn't matter how many accidents you have avoided using your godlike skills, these aids are for that one that you can't avoid. e.g Peter Brock's accident. Awesome driver, almost like a computer the accident investigators have stated......except for that one corner. Maybe it was road conditions, maybe something else, thats what this gear is for!!!! It won't always save you...but better to have them then not.

Have people actually read the research conducted on esp and other driving aids??
Of course they are an advantage. Just like the more airbags the better, wearing your seatbelt, and car body strength etc etc.

The 380 will gain esp and curtain airbags, falling into line with market expectations....soonish.....
Bets anyone????

Exactly.

If i could swap my BA XR6T for a BF XR6T I would hands down.. simply becuase of the added safety features.

No matter how good a driver people think they are. There is always going to be a situation that will catch you unawares.. This is where things like ESC, traction control etc etc all come into play..

They are always active, always auto sensing whats going on.. Whereas, we humans are not.


Theres a nice little bit of footage on the net somewhere of a cop chase with an Evo (something) and multiple times the cops hit the side of the car to spin it out, but the active yaw control stabilises the car and allows the crim to keep running...

u dont have a link 2 that footage do u? :P sounds like a good watch

This isn't it but look at the result of this evo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCpymuhZxts&mode=related&search=

One of my recent Motor mags came with a free dvd from Holden all about their VE. A part of the dvd contains footage of a VE negotiating a controlled environment swerve and recover maneourve through some cones. That is, a similar scenario to car stopped up ahead and you had to suddenly swerve around to miss it.

Firstly, the VE approaches with ESP switched off and after the first swerve, the driver can't bring the car back into to line and skids off course. If it was a two lane road, the VE would have finished on the wrong side of the road.

On the second approach with ESP switched on, the VE makes it through without fuss. Pretty amazing to watch.

pffft mark sakfe


i am the........


STIG

yes now you know his real identity now you must die :badgrin:


honestly though i rely on my driving skills in emergency's forgetting that there is any electronic aids there, if they are needed it will help me...

i lernt my car control driving a 1966 Valiant 3spd column manual no disc brakes now power steer no nothing, and i managed to avoid a few bingles in that...

them driving courses should be compulsory, i had a mate do one and hahaha he kept spinning out and it gave him a little insight to car control and what to expect... it's amasing how many ppl pannic when it get a little outta shape

but in saying all that crap, i'd like a new car with it all, cos one day you never know!! no matter how good your driving skills are (Brocky)...

Ahhh driving aids. Intresting topic. Great idea but be warned dont become reliant on them they can catch you the driver out. Here is my real life experience. I was a Holden fan i owned a few last 2 were as follows. VY S supercharged slightly done up and a VZ SS. Anyway back to the topic both vehicles had traction control abs etc etc. My biggest hate on both of these trac control was active on startup everytime you started the vehicle you could only turn it off by pushing the button so at times you would forget that it was on.
So this is what happened to me twice. It rained road was wet go to turn right rear wheels break traction mind you another vehicle is oncomming bit of a distance away.
Traction control kicks in to stop the wheel spin now depending on how hard you press the accelerator with the traction control on it causes the car to slow down and at times it bogs it down to an almost stand still.
Take note i mentioned the on comming vehicle further up this post.
By the time your realize whats happened your looking for the trac control button to disengage it. Oncomming vehicle almost cleans you up. Lucky for me on both occasions i was quick enough to turn the trac control off otherwise i would have been cleaned up and it would have been my fault.
Even though with the trac off you get wheel spin but the vehicle will move off quicker in this situation than with the traction control active.
Bottom line some of these safetey devices are setup quite agressive from the manufacturer and can catch the driver out.
My solution in the VY was to drive the vehicle without trac control active in wet weather and not be so agressive on the accelerator.
On my VZ i had the software to retune the ECU and you could adjust the parameters for the traction control so it does kick in but not so agressive as the factory settings.

So to sum this up if you have driving aids in your vehicle get familiar with the vehicle and what you can and cant do. They do have their advantages and disadvantages.

Test the above for yourself on a wet private road and see the results. Try accelerating with trac on and try to get some wheel spin happening and depending how hard you hit the accelerator there is a good chance the vehicle will almost be stationary with the trac light flashing at you.

Sorry about the long post.
Regards
wrexed03

Test the above for yourself on a wet private road and see the results. Try accelerating with trac on and try to get some wheel spin happening and depending how hard you hit the accelerator there is a good chance the vehicle will almost be stationary with the trac light flashing at you.

Our Verada has TCL.

Only twice it has come on when my mum drives the car.. and I have made it come on using tiptronic.

It came on once on our street when it was raining one morning and there was heaps of these mustard berry thingy's on the road (with rocky seeds in them.. forget the naem of the tree). It came on.. slowed the car down and stopped berrys from flicking everywhere.

Another time on South Road it came on when it was pooooring down with rain (extremely rare here in SA) and mum accelerated from the lights and it came on instantly.

However, it doesn't stay on for more then a few seconds and mum would definitely prefer no wheelspin vs. wheelspin.

Also, being your car was a Commodore and is RWD, it is alot easier for that to break traction compared to our Verada which is FWD. Therefore the traction system on the Commodore would play a greater role in restricting wheelspin.

You've got to see the TCL system on my car (Eunos 800M), is more effective then the Verada's. It has knock sensors (which make it slightly different when the correct premium fuel is used.. which it is) and wheel speed sensors. However it malfunctioned the other day and wouldn't allow me to accelerate over 2,500rpm :nuts:

It's got nothing to do with "e-penises". I personally don't want an intrusive system interfering with my feel of what the car is doing in the middle of a corner or a violent action where the car's balance is all important. That's something I have as a skill that has come from Mallalla and AIR racing circuits some years ago.



Says the person driving an automatic?

Not to mention being a poilot you should know how one little mess up will have you plummeting at the ground.

One of my recent Motor mags came with a free dvd from Holden all about their VE. A part of the dvd contains footage of a VE negotiating a controlled environment swerve and recover maneourve through some cones. That is, a similar scenario to car stopped up ahead and you had to suddenly swerve around to miss it.

Firstly, the VE approaches with ESP switched off and after the first swerve, the driver can't bring the car back into to line and skids off course. If it was a two lane road, the VE would have finished on the wrong side of the road.

On the second approach with ESP switched on, the VE makes it through without fuss. Pretty amazing to watch.

Yeah but that just goes back to the vice versa point in case - the Commodore has always been notoriously tail happy in the wet and it NEEDS ESC to control it, wheras the likes of the Mitsu are better balanced in the first place and therefore inherently less likely to lose it, therefore less likely to be needing such a 'feature'.

Remember 15-20 years ago all the jap performance sedans were getting Rear Wheel Steering because at that time they couldn't get the inherent chassis balance right. Now - find a car with RWS - they don't exist because the base level of chassis tuning coming out of Japan has improved markedly - hence the need for the 'gizmo' has evaporated.

So I say go for ESP if you really want it but don't automatically assume its going to make a silk purse out of the proverbial sow's ear. Heck the Kia Magentis has 'ESP' but I seriously doubt that its a better handling / safer handling car than the 380.

Agreed. I remember ESP had to be fitted to the A-Class because it failed the Moose test.

Ahhh driving aids. Intresting topic. Great idea but be warned dont become reliant on them they can catch you the driver out. Here is my real life experience. I was a Holden fan i owned a few last 2 were as follows. VY S supercharged slightly done up and a VZ SS. Anyway back to the topic both vehicles had traction control abs etc etc. My biggest hate on both of these trac control was active on startup everytime you started the vehicle you could only turn it off by pushing the button so at times you would forget that it was on.
So this is what happened to me twice. It rained road was wet go to turn right rear wheels break traction mind you another vehicle is oncomming bit of a distance away.
Traction control kicks in to stop the wheel spin now depending on how hard you press the accelerator with the traction control on it causes the car to slow down and at times it bogs it down to an almost stand still.
Take note i mentioned the on comming vehicle further up this post.
By the time your realize whats happened your looking for the trac control button to disengage it. Oncomming vehicle almost cleans you up. Lucky for me on both occasions i was quick enough to turn the trac control off otherwise i would have been cleaned up and it would have been my fault.
Even though with the trac off you get wheel spin but the vehicle will move off quicker in this situation than with the traction control active.
Bottom line some of these safetey devices are setup quite agressive from the manufacturer and can catch the driver out.
My solution in the VY was to drive the vehicle without trac control active in wet weather and not be so agressive on the accelerator.
On my VZ i had the software to retune the ECU and you could adjust the parameters for the traction control so it does kick in but not so agressive as the factory settings.

So to sum this up if you have driving aids in your vehicle get familiar with the vehicle and what you can and cant do. They do have their advantages and disadvantages.

Test the above for yourself on a wet private road and see the results. Try accelerating with trac on and try to get some wheel spin happening and depending how hard you hit the accelerator there is a good chance the vehicle will almost be stationary with the trac light flashing at you.

Sorry about the long post.
Regards
wrexed03




This is confusing........
If the traction control is engaging it is doing so to stop wheel spin, in order to enable the car to go somewhere when correct throttle input is being received........In other words if the car is not going anywhere it seems the right foot has more to do with that then the traction control unit!!!! Basic physics.

Why drive with the traction control off, and then 'not be so aggressive on the accelerator'??
Why not drive with it on and do the same.......isn't it the same result, whilst still having one of the safety features of the vehicle active if needed.
The test you suggest makes no sense. Either go nowhere due to wheel spin, or go no where due to traction control. Either way throttle control is the answer. Unless you own a tyre shop, then spin away:)

Also, being your car was a Commodore and is RWD, it is alot easier for that to break traction compared to our Verada which is FWD. Therefore the traction system on the Commodore would play a greater role in restricting wheelspin.


Yeah but that just goes back to the vice versa point in case - the Commodore has always been notoriously tail happy in the wet and it NEEDS ESC to control it, wheras the likes of the Mitsu are better balanced in the first place and therefore inherently less likely to lose it, therefore less likely to be needing such a 'feature'.

load of crap, both of those statements. I had a VS commodore before i bought my TL magna and im hear to tell you that the magna has way less traction in thet wet then the commodore had. You see when you accelerate, all the weight in a car moves rearwards, meaning weight lifts off the front wheels, reducing traction, and places it over the rear wheels, increasing traction. The commodore was a peice of cake to drive in the wet unless you where being silly, whereas the magna will quiet easily loose traction. Even my MUM commented to me that the commodore, which use to be hers before i bought it off her, was easier to drive in the wet then the magna

And the commodore has never "notoriously" been tail happy in the wet, and the magna is NOT better balanced in the first place and inherinetly less likely to loose control. I have found with the two cars i have owned that the magna is much more likely to understeer on things like round abouts and so forth in the wet then the commodore, and the commodore only ever oversteered when you booted it coming out of a slow speed corner, and even then it only did that in the wet, in the dry you really had to be trying hard to make it oversteer. Overall i found the commodore to be much more "predictable" in the wet then the magna. If i still had both cars, and it was dry, i would grab the keys to my magna every time as the magna is a MUCH better car then my commodore, however if it was raining i would reach straight for my commo keys, no doubt about it

Just because a car is RWD doesnt mean its tail happy, quite the opposite infact as alot of FWD cars can be prone to "lift off oversteer" which is a handling trait which alot of FWD cars have (although its not really a problem in magnas i've found) meaning that they can actually be MORE prone to oversteer then some RWD cars. And in the wet, if you do a sudden emergency lane change maneuver, doesnt matter what your car is, FWD, RWD or AWD, the car is gonna oversteer and your gonna have to be pretty good to save it without electronic intervention

This is confusing........
If the traction control is engaging it is doing so to stop wheel spin, in order to enable the car to go somewhere when correct throttle input is being received........In other words if the car is not going anywhere it seems the right foot has more to do with that then the traction control unit!!!! Basic physics.

Why drive with the traction control off, and then 'not be so aggressive on the accelerator'??
Why not drive with it on and do the same.......isn't it the same result, whilst still having one of the safety features of the vehicle active if needed.
The test you suggest makes no sense. Either go nowhere due to wheel spin, or go no where due to traction control. Either way throttle control is the answer. Unless you own a tyre shop, then spin away:)

yeah i couldnt make sense of that either.. rather then "turning off the traction control and be less agressive with the throttle" why dont you just leave the traction control on and still be less aggressive with the throttle? The traction control only kicks in when you have booted it too hard...

hahah snip...


snip.

This has become a worthwhile debate.My point has been reinforced by some others here who have recounted their own actual experiences with this technology.

I was not trying to be conceited or boastful about my past, it was to give some credibility to my argument. There are probably many members who have had miles more track experience than I and who may not agree with me. For the record, my experiences were in 1984-87 in SA with car club track days and motorkhana events and for me were invaluable in help me understand the limits of cars and my abilities.

I have no problem with traction control or ABS but I am not convinced that electronic aids that interfere with the cornering or lateral control of the car are in all cases as effective or desirable as claimed.

The Nissan Maxima is a good example. The technology on this car has been noted to virtually shutdown forward speed using braking and engine control to regain what the electronic brain believes is a controllable situation for the driver. I won't be buying one, ever.

BMW has come out with a suite of driver aids, i-Drive, and been criticised heavily for taking away driver involvement in critical decision making.

The Mazda MX-5 design philosophy deliberately eschewed driver aids to appeal to drivers who wanted total involvement and control. With that comes responsibility for being skilled enough to either avoid hazardous situations e.g. slow down in the wet,etc, or e.g. be able to correct a front skid under heavy braking in the wet.

Renault, I believe, are introducing a driver aid that detects cars in the blind spot. good on the face of it, but will that lead to those drivers eventually not look over their shoulders when changing lanes?

At the end of the day I would rather purchase a well sorted car that I felt worked with me in an emergency situation rather than a car whose dynamic abilities were less but that electronic stability would be relied upon.

That doesn't mean that I would make the same decision for my wife's car or childrens. Each situation will be different. As I said in my original post.

The question to you guys is; does that mean you believe any car without
electronic stability control should not be considered for purchase?

Knotched you still havent responded to my original point, that being when your having a fang you can just turn the system off! But it IS helpful in sudden emergency situations

The ESP on the VE commodore has been widely acclaimed as not only being a good safety device, but it also works WITH the driver during enthousiastic driving! It prompted motor magazine to say "its the only ESP system in the world that i DONT turn off!"

its not that any car without ESP should not be considered for purchase, far from it, however it is a feature that is becoming increasingly common in cars and is beneficial to 99% of drivers, and therefore it makes cars fitted with ESP more attractive to safety concious buyers then cars without ESP. And that is the whole point of this argument. TJ Sports wanted to know if ESP made a car more attractive or not, and the answer is in 99% of situations the anwer is yes. Put it this way, ESP isn't going to cause you to have a crash, but it might SAVE you from having a crash, and thats the point

hahah check out all the Mark Webber's and Craig Lowndes's we have on the forum.....


load of crap, both of those statements.....


The ESP on the VE commodore has been widely acclaimed as not only being a good safety device, but it also works WITH the driver during enthousiastic driving!.....

Excellent posts there! Couldn't be closer from the truth.

I would honestly like to meet someone who can brake each wheel individually, observe when the wheels are skidding and release brake pressure, determine when the wheels are spinning and cut engine power and reapply each to the threshold as necessary...over a thousand times per second (the actual figure is undoubtly higher than that).

Sure ESP can cut the fun out of some driving, but as RJL said...turn the button off when you want to be in control. That said, most people just see ESP as a glorified traction control and ABS. But honestly, the ability to determine whether the car is understeering, oversteering, etc and apply braking to individual wheels, in my eyes, is a phenomenon.

I don't understand why we're talking about traction control systems, I admit that they do upset the balance of the car as they're usually primitive and more of a On/Off switch which is not very helpful mid-corner where you want to maintain the balance. If you're still doubtful, just have a look at this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=NiZjeeMExY4)and tell me how 'upset' the cars with ESP look compared to the ones with out.

As for TJ Sports' original question, if you find that the VE and 380 are head to head in all areas; driving pleasure, comfort, fuel, looks, price, smoothness, quality and the VE has ESC but the 380 doesn't, then of course buy the VE. However, if there are aspects that you really like about one car and dislike about the other, you wouldn't just buy the car you don't like because it has ESC, would you?


Our Verada has TCL.

Only twice it has come on when my mum drives the car.. and I have made it come on using tiptronic

I was pretty :shock: when I read this statement. My dad has made the TCL light (and the wheels break traction, of course) come up plenty times leaving it in 'D' and he is by no means an aggressive or revhead driver. Even I have, when I was driving the Magna for the second time on my L's ...Waiting at a T- Intersection to turn right onto a main road. Turned the wheels to the right before I started moving. Saw a gap and I didn't give it THAT much throttle but the wheels started spinning because they were turned, TCL kicking in (on and off) and I ended up on the wrong side of the road with a van coming towards me. Again, in 'D'.

I was pretty when I read this statement. My dad has made the TCL light (and the wheels break traction, of course) come up plenty times leaving it in 'D' and he is by no means an aggressive or revhead driver. Even I have, when I was driving the Magna for the second time on my L's ...Waiting at a T- Intersection to turn right onto a main road. Turned the wheels to the right before I started moving. Saw a gap and I didn't give it THAT much throttle but the wheels started spinning because they were turned, TCL kicking in (on and off) and I ended up on the wrong side of the road with a van coming towards me. Again, in 'D'.

You kind of made me want to go and try that. I rarely turn the wheel in the direction I am going to travel before I accelerate unless I am parking or doing a u-turn (U-turns get a fully locked wheel in the Verada). My mum never turns the wheel before she accelerates, and barely turns it in U-turns either, and everytime she does a U-turn that she just makes or a U-turn that turns into a 3-point turn she complains and starts going on about how her old car (VX Calais) could have made the U-turn. I seriously find that the TCL on the Verada very very rarely intervenes.

The time it came on in tiptronic is because I took off at the lights in 1st gear.... wheels were straight though and it lasted one second at the most.

Was it wet when your TCL experience happened? It sounds really scarey as well, I would be freaked out if the Verada did that... or if my Eunos did that.

I must also say, after driving a few different cars with different systems there is definite differences with all of them. I.e. when the system kicks in, how long it lasts, how it controls the front/rear wheels/etc. Almost to the point that if you were to drive a different car with one of these systems that you should familiarise yourself with it before you start driving the car reguarly.

Firstly, I would like to apologise for further spamming this thread with irrelevant crap...

I don't turn the wheel before moving either (unless I'm parking [as you said]), but it was when I was still learning to drive so that combination of factors led to spinning the wheels.

No it wasn't wet at all, was dry and quite sunny if I remember correctly. But I've found that the wheels spin relatively easy on the Magna even in D with TCL on. Most of the instances my dad spun the wheels was in a similar situation to mine, but turning right onto a highway (and then accelerating to 100km/h immediately).

Although I've found that even with TCL, in D, just floor the car from a standing start and the TCL will intervene (rightfully so..because the wheels do spin!). Another strange thing I've found was that on muck up day last year, when I was cruising around with some mates. After driving for a while (it was relatively hot), the wheels would spin in D with TCL on with the slightest touch of the throttle. It got to the point that every single time was unintentional.

I find the TCL in the Magna not as restrictive as some perceive it to be. You can still accelerate whilst flooring it and it won't completely stop the car at all. You can hear and feel it working but it just doesn't seem to stop the wheels spinning completely until you back off the throttle.

Is your Verada the 4 or 5spd Tippy? That could probably have a huge impact on whether you spin the wheels easily, as I heard the 4spd Magna/Verada gearboxes have loooong gear ratios.

Firstly, I would like to apologise for further spamming this thread with irrelevant crap...

I don't turn the wheel before moving either (unless I'm parking [as you said]), but it was when I was still learning to drive so that combination of factors led to spinning the wheels.

No it wasn't wet at all, was dry and quite sunny if I remember correctly. But I've found that the wheels spin relatively easy on the Magna even in D with TCL on. Most of the instances my dad spun the wheels was in a similar situation to mine, but turning right onto a highway (and then accelerating to 100km/h immediately).

Although I've found that even with TCL, in D, just floor the car from a standing start and the TCL will intervene (rightfully so..because the wheels do spin!). Another strange thing I've found was that on muck up day last year, when I was cruising around with some mates. After driving for a while (it was relatively hot), the wheels would spin in D with TCL on with the slightest touch of the throttle. It got to the point that every single time was unintentional.

I find the TCL in the Magna not as restrictive as some perceive it to be. You can still accelerate whilst flooring it and it won't completely stop the car at all. You can hear and feel it working but it just doesn't seem to stop the wheels spinning completely until you back off the throttle.

Is your Verada the 4 or 5spd Tippy? That could probably have a huge impact on whether you spin the wheels easily, as I heard the 4spd Magna/Verada gearboxes have loooong gear ratios.

LOL.. I also apolgise for spamming this thread.

It just seems very odd as it seems your Magna's TCL system is different then our Verada's. Our TCL will come on if you floor it from standstill. But if you accelerate significantly while driving ours doesn't kick in. In fact I don't think it has ever kicked in while we have been driving the car. It has always been from standstill.

Perhaps the tyres and the cars weight also come into it slightly. A KJ Xi Verada weighs a few XX's more then a Magna and the tyres are the standard 16" tyres. When the tyres got replaced we replaced them with Dunlop somethings... they were expensive though (~$700 for 4 tyres), the same or similar to the stock ones I think.

Our Verada is only a 4 speeder as well.

Come to think it, ESP might have been handy that time I got snap oversteer in a KFC drive thru and careered into the restaurant wall. Would have saved alot of hassles for sure...:)

Come to think it, ESP might have been handy that time I got snap oversteer in a KFC drive thru and careered into the restaurant wall. Would have saved alot of hassles for sure...:)

lol wtf?

its not that any car without ESP should not be considered for purchase, far from it, however it is a feature that is becoming increasingly common in cars and is beneficial to 99% of drivers, and therefore it makes cars fitted with ESP more attractive to safety concious buyers then cars without ESP. And that is the whole point of this argument. TJ Sports wanted to know if ESP made a car more attractive or not, and the answer is in 99% of situations the anwer is yes. Put it this way, ESP isn't going to cause you to have a crash, but it might SAVE you from having a crash, and thats the point
...and from what approved study did you pull these 99% figures from? No person I know personally drives a car with ESP, and not one of them have ever been in a situation where ESP would have assisted them (not to discredit the benefits of ESP).

So going by that I can say that it's beneficial to none but 1% of drivers...

I think you're simply making this up due to the 380 not having the system yet. If it did we'd be seeing a different response from you. You clearly just want TJ Sports to get the VE because you like it. It's unnecessary to fill this debate with such a string of missives as you've done.

TJ Sports, if ESP really has you concerned, by all means get the VE V; it's a good car, as is the 380 platinum. Although whilst the VE V does have ESP it lacks a long list of other features the 380 platinum has that I mentioned in a previous post. Also, the updated "Series 3" 380 to be released around July-ish this year is said to also introduce ESP (MMAL have been developing the system for the 380 since 2005). At the end of the day it's your personal choice.

thanks again to all the replies, a refreshing change to AMC this has been a very mature discussion. no doubt safety sells its a shame mitsubishi havnt released ESC with the 380. true the adds are very holden centered, but to holdens credit they have been spending up big on safety in recent years, and its a lead other car companies are following.

Hang on, TJ, haven't finished yet! :badgrin:

Knotched you still havent responded to my original point, that being when your having a fang you can just turn the system off! But it IS helpful in sudden emergency situations

What was my post just prior all about RJL? I don’t trust it. The fact that even TCL can completely change your immediate and instinctive expectation of what the car will do in a situation is proof enough. Car companies spend massive amounts on making their products have “good steering feel” or that are “communicative to the driver”. Why? To make the car an extension of the driver. What is the point of all this when it is all taken away and out of the driver’s hands when he needs it most to respond to his commands?
Why would I turn ESP on or off when the car will behave very differently in each instance?
When I drive it hard I am finding out how it responds on the limit, or on my limit. In fact my reactions and the feedback it gives me builds a whole set of certain behavioural responses, call it human programming. If I drive it with ESP on it will respond possibly very differently and not how I will expect it based on my previous experience. If I am then involved in a traffic situation I am in a car which is now unfamiliar and will not respond how I instinctively feel it should because there is an electronic software package inserted between me and the car ‘s natural behaviour.



The ESP on the VE commodore has been widely acclaimed as not only being a good safety device, but it also works WITH the driver during enthousiastic driving! It prompted motor magazine to say "its the only ESP system in the world that i DONT turn off!"


Hallelujah the VE.
However, “…the only ESP system…” just emphasizes my point that these systems are yet to be perfected.



its not that any car without ESP should not be considered for purchase, far from it, however it is a feature that is becoming increasingly common in cars and is beneficial to 99% of drivers, and therefore it makes cars fitted with ESP more attractive to safety concious buyers then cars without ESP. And that is the whole point of this argument. TJ Sports wanted to know if ESP made a car more attractive or not, and the answer is in 99% of situations the anwer is yes. Put it this way, ESP isn't going to cause you to have a crash, but it might SAVE you from having a crash, and thats the point


The point is my first post was;

“If you think ESP is a major advantage, by all means buy the VE.”

It’s obvious he thinks it is and probably will. I don’t have a problem with his exercise of free choice.

...and from what approved study did you pull these 99% figures from? No person I know personally drives a car with ESP, and not one of them have ever been in a situation where ESP would have assisted them (not to discredit the benefits of ESP).

So going by that I can say that it's beneficial to none but 1% of drivers...

I think you're simply making this up due to the 380 not having the system yet. If it did we'd be seeing a different response from you. You clearly just want TJ Sports to get the VE because you like it. It's unnecessary to fill this debate with such a string of missives as you've done.

wtf? i think you've miss understood what im saying. Im not saying that esp HAS been beneficial to 99% of drivers, im saying it WOULD be beneficial to 99% of drivers. Theres no way you can statistically prove this ofcourse, that would be an impossible thing to either prove or dissprove statistically, hence why i think you have missed my point. What i am trying to say is that the benefits of ESP could, you understand me: COULD!!! be a benefit to nearly anyone who drives a car. And how do you know that not one of the people you know would not have been in a situation which ESP would have helped them in? Any time a car understeers, and time a car oversteers, any time a car slides in anyway, ESP will help correct the slide. Are you saying that no one you know has ever had a car slide out on them? understeer on them? I find that hard to believe.

Im not making anything up man, and i would never make anything up just to have a go at the 380. Anyone who knows me knows that i am 150% PRO-Mitsubishi, and i think the 380 is a fantastic car, although the styling is wide of the mark. Yes i like the VE commodore, but you know what! If it was my money i'd buy the 380, ESP or not! BUT im not the one buying the car, and thats not even what the thread is about, its about TJ Sports wanting to know if ESP is beneficial or not

TJ Sports simply asked the question if ESP would be beneficial, and the answer, in my opinion and in the opinion of most industry experts, is yes.

I have not made up one thing in this entire thread and i challenge you, VeradaBoy, to prove that i have! If you can't, and i know you can't, then step the hell down!!

What was my post just prior all about RJL? I don’t trust it. The fact that even TCL can completely change your immediate and instinctive expectation of what the car will do in a situation is proof enough. Car companies spend massive amounts on making their products have “good steering feel” or that are “communicative to the driver”. Why? To make the car an extension of the driver. What is the point of all this when it is all taken away and out of the driver’s hands when he needs it most to respond to his commands?
Why would I turn ESP on or off when the car will behave very differently in each instance?
When I drive it hard I am finding out how it responds on the limit, or on my limit. In fact my reactions and the feedback it gives me builds a whole set of certain behavioural responses, call it human programming. If I drive it with ESP on it will respond possibly very differently and not how I will expect it based on my previous experience. If I am then involved in a traffic situation I am in a car which is now unfamiliar and will not respond how I instinctively feel it should because there is an electronic software package inserted between me and the car ‘s natural behaviour.

maybe i have missed your point, and im willing to agree with you in that during "enthousiastic" driving, i would prefer to not have ESP either. A cars feel is extreemly important. However im sure you would agree that the amount of motorists out there who actually understand vehicle dynamics, let alone has the "feel" which as you said is something you have to learn with time and experience, the amount who actually understands all of this isn't that great, and to those people ESP would be a benefit. I think you'd probably agree with that?


Hallelujah the VE.
However, “…the only ESP system…” just emphasizes my point that these systems are yet to be perfected.

heh seems you and others think i am only saying this cos i want TJ to buy the VE, not true! I was only using that example to counter your argument that some ESP systems are rubbish, which some certainly are! However the VE is one of the cars out there which does have a good one, and i thought that was relevant as the whole discussion centred on the VE's ESP system and the 380's lack of one





The point is my first post was;

“If you think ESP is a major advantage, by all means buy the VE.”

It’s obvious he thinks it is and probably will. I don’t have a problem with his exercise of free choice.

again ill agree with you :o two times in one post in this thread! :P

again ill agree with you :o two times in one post in this thread! :P

:bowrofl: Let's not get too carried away - the place will go to pot!

re "ESP"... if you're entering corners so hot that you need fancy
electronics to save your bacon... there's only 2 ways available
to teach you to slow down - the fast way or the painful way.


As for TCL on Mitsus... discovered something interesting.

Recently had some broken Magna 3.5L engine mounts which when fixed,
reduced standing-start wheelspin HEAPS. :shock: Nothing else changed?!

so yeah if your car has broken mounts or bad tyres, your TCL could be working harder

Otherwise on other low-mileage KJ on good tyres, it seldom kicks in. Usually time it does
is when I'm purposely stomping on the gas or if its just begun to rain with lots of oil on road.
Then it works & its not too intrusive.

re "ESP"... if you're entering corners so hot that you need fancy
electronics to save your bacon... there's only 2 ways available
to teach you to slow down - the fast way or the painful way.

ESP isn't an idiot prevention device. It's there for emergency purposes, in situations when things happen so quick you don't have time to think, only react. So the ESP will do it's best to keep the car headed in the direction you point it, hopefully avoiding an accident in the process.

35k brand new for a 6speed auto BF falc is a fantastic deal.. but if it was me i would always feel like the gumpy cousin forced to watch the good looking football playing cousin (the XR6T) getting all the ladies :P

nothing 5 little red badges and a whisile in the exhaust cant fix :bowrofl: :bowrofl: :bowrofl:


ahhhh the steroid pumping "look at me!" cousin...


:D

guess what dave_au the 380 was almost a done deal today but I popped into westpoint ford today and priced up a N/A BF MKII XR6 with the six speed zf auto. 35k DRIVE AWAY BRAND NEW! thats list for govt fleet (me!) cheaper than second hand ones in the yard insane. If it gets closer to 30 I might do a BAIN lol (minus the turbo) :rant:

after much thinking ive decided against the VE.
Oh jeez I'm going to get crucified for sending you to Ford. j/k.

Seriously, that Falcon you test drove is a fantastic car; the gearbox is brilliant (Aston Martin and BMW use it), its got the airbags, it's got the ESP, and it has the whole "rwd" factor.

Did you drive it? I think you'll be happily suprised.

Wheels had the XR6 vs SV6 vs 380vrx and Aurion ZR6 - gave the VE and the Falcon 4/5, VRX 3/5, Aurion 3.5/5.

Brief comments for the Falcon were:
Good: Strong engine, near perfect gearbox, sharp steering, supportive seats.
Bad: Likes a drink (not too sure on that - maybe if thrashed), some elements looking their age, intrusive ESP (but can be switched off).

Brief comments for 380 were:
Good: Surpisingly adjustable chassis, share price and decent equipment
Bad: Dull presentation for a sports, tyre noise, rack rattle.

380 resale is 49% after three years for the ES (best resale of all trim levels)
No resale figures available for the BF MkII XR6 with the 6 speed but I can tell you the old 4 speed XR6NA had a resale of 56% after three years - I can't see the 4 speed being better than the 6 speed - I'd say maybe 60-62% for the Xr6 with the ZF auto.

Just finance the bugger for an extra 10k and go xr6t.

You know you want to.

i think the "likes a drink" comment is made relitive to the competition, as although the falc's fuel economy on the 6 speed is good on paper it is apparently worse then its rivals in the real world, but im going off car reviews and stuff here, havent peresonally tested its economy.

but yeah seriously man, get the xr6t, the car is pure horn and the engine has a high chub factor

quick hash of the figures and its all relative. lets say 49% for the 380 platinum (with sunroof) and 56% for the XR6 (worst cases)

51% 30k = 15300 (380)
44% 35k = 15400 (XR6)

percentages might sound good but the actual $ amount lost is the same.
Wrong mate - Your calcs went the wrong way and for the wrong vehicles.

After three years:
380 at $30,000 with 49% resale = $14,700 (and 49% is probably more toward optimistic)
XR6 at $35,000 with 56% resale = $19,600 (and 56% isn't optimistic as this is what the old 4 speed was, plus it's popular)

Additionally, an XR6 (especially the turbo) would probably have a more reliable resale market (read young males) than a fairly conservative fwd large car.

Okay so your looking at the cost of depreciation rather than the residual. Wasn't sure what you were doing there.

yeah it can be done either way, remember the XR6 is 5000 more to start with so it works out the same. my calcs were based on what I would LOOSE come trade in. plus im not paying interest on the extra 5G.

I saw a 380G in storm on the way to work today and it did look good. almost VE like lol im going to see the werribee ford shortly and if they cant move on price its off to mitsu.

Do what i did mate.

Tell the guy youre going to goto 3 other Ford dealers.

The best quote gets your business.

My original quote for my XR6T started at 52k. (with Sunroof, Leather, Premium sound - 6 speed manual)

Final was 47,7k (with free sunroof, Leather) - drive away.

Having driven Jo's parents ZF6 Speed, i wouldnt touch another auto that didnt have a similar gearbox. The car gets 650km/tank fuel around the city.. Its smooth, quiet and a pleasure to drive..

You would have to be mad not to want a ESP. and the discussion that driver skill will be enough is BS in my opinion.

If ESC was allowed in motor sports they would have it, and it would make for faster safer cars. but he driver and team with the most skills would still win

one all be it lame example was the celebrity race at the Melbourne Gp Either last ear or the year b4. Driving BMW 1 series with esp it was the lamest race ever not one spin (which is why people watch the celebrity event) Drivers were running wide onto the grass and the esp would tidy the car up and get it under control. Borring but much safer racing.

one all be it lame example was the celebrity race at the Melbourne Gp Either last ear or the year b4. Driving BMW 1 series with esp it was the lamest race ever not one spin (which is why people watch the celebrity event) Drivers were running wide onto the grass and the esp would tidy the car up and get it under control. Borring but much safer racing.

yeah i remember that, and it was actually a really good example of how ESP can potentially prevent accidents. A number of times i thought a car was gonna have a stack but then the driver seemingly had schumacher like driving abilities and saved it! But ofcourse it was the ESP doing all the work. BMW actually specified that ESP had to be left on so as to lower their repair bill after the race!

If ESC was allowed in motor sports they would have it, and it would make for faster safer cars. but he driver and team with the most skills would still win

So you are saying that they should have ABS, trac control and side airbags as well? Motor racing is sanitized enough! Sure you say the drivers with the most skill would win but as soon as any of them were having a go the electronic nanny would intervene and spoil the day... I suppose they could introduce automatic transmissions as well, that would make the racing even safer still! lol

So you are saying that they should have ABS, trac control and side airbags as well? Motor racing is sanitized enough! Sure you say the drivers with the most skill would win but as soon as any of them were having a go the electronic nanny would intervene and spoil the day... I suppose they could introduce automatic transmissions as well, that would make the racing even safer still! lol

heh ABS, trac control and automatic transmitions where all developed for use in F1, however only trac control survives as the others where deemed to sanatise the racing too much, just like you said, and where banned. And even trac control will be banned in 2008

"So you are saying that they should have ABS, trac control and side airbags as well?"
I didnt say that they should have them. I said that if they did they would be faster and safer.

And a gearbox in an F1 car isnt to far from an auto, They have or had (not sure about the rules this year) launch control and clutchless padle shifts.

and Im not sure what u mean by "have a go". an F1 driver isnt going to chuck it sideways for fun during a race. so if thats what u mean by have a go, well then yes it will "spoil the day" as its not the fastest way to drive an F1 CAR. And if by "have a go" you mean driving 100% quickest possible then Obviously there esp would be set up to assist in that not hinder.

I can remember reading on auto speed that whiteline was trying to develop a interceptor to be able to modify the ESP in cars. anyone know how that went or is going?

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2927/article.html

and Im not sure what u mean by "have a go". an F1 driver isnt going to chuck it sideways for fun during a race. so if thats what u mean by have a go, well then yes it will "spoil the day" as its not the fastest way to drive an F1 CAR. And if by "have a go" you mean driving 100% quickest possible then Obviously there esp would be set up to assist in that not hinder.

you dont know alot about F1 do you.. F1 cars actually slide around quite alot, its just difficult to see that they are because they are going so quick, it just looks like they went straight through the corner like on rails.

The top F1 drivers actually intentionally use understeer and oversteer in certain corners to get the most out of the car. Fernando Alonso is famous for loving his car to be set up for understeer, hence why when you see him on the in car camera, he frequently steers the car aggressively towards the apex in high speed corners, but more often the not actually miss the apex due to the understeer he creates. By doing this he can brake later and enter the corner faster as he is actually using the understeer to wash speed off. So if he brakes at the same time as the other guys, by mid corner he will actually be going slower thanks to the understeer. So he has two options, he can brake later into the corner therefore gaining time through the corner, or he can brake at the same time, then use the slower speed to get on the gas earlier, and therefore gain time down the straight by getting to top speed quicker. Peter Brock used a similar technique

Senna was another classic example, set his car up for massive oversteer and any racing driver worth his salt will tell you that oversteer is fast when its done correctly (fernando is the exception, not the rule, hence his brilliance) and ofcourse Senna was good enough to control the oversteer, hence why he was faster then everyone else.

Im not saying the cars would be slower with ESP, but certainly the gap between the senna's, schumachers and alonso and the alex youngs, takuma satos and uji ide wouldn't be as great as it is because they wouldn't be able to use these driving techniques that is beyond the abilities of lesser drivers, and you would have a situation like we had in the early 90's when damon hill won the world championship because he had such a great car and no one could compete. Theres no way Damon Hill was EVER good enough to be a world champion on his own merit

No ESP is a safety device, it is not a performance device. It will make a dumb driver look like a god, but a great driver will still be able to turn it off and go faster

No ESP is a safety device, it is not a performance device. It will make a dumb driver look like a god, but a great driver will still be able to turn it off and go faster
And this is the EXACT point i have been trying to get across! :D

With the knowledge, skills and huge financial backing of F1 teams, you think they couldnt develop ESP that made the cars quicker.

Exmaple; 1998 Melbourne GP - Mclaren finished 1st and 2nd Hakkinen and Coulthard, Lapping the rest of the field. Why? They were using a computer controlled braking system that braked the inside wheels when turning (hmmm sounds a lot like esp doesnt it) I think the computer could tell which corner the car was taking (obviously not applicable to a road car but just an example)
I believe it was very quickly baned from F1

A link to wiki that explains it - Perhaps not computer controlled after all but still similar to ESP function ie braking the inside rear wheel to reduce under steer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mclaren#Late_1990s_return_to_form

the stewerds decision to ban it ( will need to sign up for it)

http://www.racefax.com/content/features/BrakeOut.pdf

And to dissmis Damon Hills world Championship win is a load of crock. I think he also came 2nd behind Schuemacher twice (not a bad driver finishing 2nd behind the greatest F1 driver in history)

And to say that it was only because of a faster car, Shuemacher, Alonso, Hakkinen and the venerable Peter Brock were all in faster cars then their rivals.


And as for sliding the cars round, there is a clear difference between an F1 driver having slight under/over stear set up for theire car and Mr Joe Average "Having a go" wanting to get his commodore sideways through a round about.


And please dont tell me what i dont know, while my knowlege on F1 may not be encyclopedic or be based on personal experience as I have never or will ever drive an F1 car, I belive it is sufficent to take part in this discussion without being put down


and the point that in some cars that now come with ESP that it will slow a car down overall while being driven by a highly skilled driver is accepted. My point is that if ESP was developed for a highly skilled driver (ie F1 driver) it would make the driver/car faster.

With the knowledge, skills and huge financial backing of F1 teams, you think they couldnt develop ESP that made the cars quicker.

if you read what i said, i never said it wouldnt make the cars quicker, what i said was it would make it easier for rubbish drivers to compete with the top drivers, whereas with race cars without ESP the difference between the top drivers and the mediocre drivers is much greater, and thats the way it should be


Exmaple; 1998 Melbourne GP - Mclaren finished 1st and 2nd Hakkinen and Coulthard, Lapping the rest of the field. Why? They were using a computer controlled braking system that braked the inside wheels when turning (hmmm sounds a lot like esp doesnt it) I think the computer could tell which corner the car was taking (obviously not applicable to a road car but just an example)
I believe it was very quickly baned from F1

the mclaren rear brake system was driver controlled, not computer controlled as you later pointed out, however its nothing like ESP. ESP is designed to control understeer and oversteer, the mclaren rear brake system was not designed to control understeer or oversteer at all, rather it was designed to prevent understeer. Theres a difference. ESP is a reactive system, the mclaren rear brake system was a proactive system. The driver would brake the inside rear wheel when they turned into the corner, therefore making the car turn in sharper then would otherwise be possible. It may seem similar as it involved braking an individual wheel, but its actually a completely different concept to ESP, not least of which is that its driver controlled and not computer controlled, and without the computer doing the work its not an Electronic Stability Program, its a driver controlled understeer prevention system, completely different.


And to dissmis Damon Hills world Championship win is a load of crock. I think he also came 2nd behind Schuemacher twice (not a bad driver finishing 2nd behind the greatest F1 driver in history)

And to say that it was only because of a faster car, Shuemacher, Alonso, Hakkinen and the venerable Peter Brock were all in faster cars then their rivals

both years damon came second to schumacher he should have won. The williams was a much better car then schumi's car on both occasions. Dont forget that in Jaques Villineurves ROOKIE season he spanked Damon, and Jaques is hardly a top rate driver himself.


And as for sliding the cars round, there is a clear difference between an F1 driver having slight under/over stear set up for theire car and Mr Joe Average "Having a go" wanting to get his commodore sideways through a round about.

agreed, but we weren't talking about the average joe, we where talking about racing cars.


And please dont tell me what i dont know, while my knowlege on F1 may not be encyclopedic or be based on personal experience as I have never or will ever drive an F1 car, I belive it is sufficent to take part in this discussion without being put down.

agreed, i appologise



and the point that in some cars that now come with ESP that it will slow a car down overall while being driven by a highly skilled driver is accepted. My point is that if ESP was developed for a highly skilled driver (ie F1 driver) it would make the driver/car faster.

i dont accept this. Why? The latest Ferrari F430 has a VERY tricky ESP system along with its E-Diff and all sorts of other awesome bits of software which make the average driver look like a hero. However, Ferrari acknowledges that a top driver will lap Fiorano (ferrari's test track) faster with the electronics turned off, then they would with it all turned on.

ESP would make it easier for a driver to lap consistantly fast and get the most out of his race car, however it will not necessarily be quicker.

ESP has ALOT of merit for road cars and has the potential to prevent ALOT of accidents, however it has its limitations in the harsh racing environment of Formula One and i dont accept that it should be in Formula One, which i think was your original point. WRC? well thats a different story, it would most certainly make a WRC car quicker, but again it shouldnt be allowed in the WRC as it would make it easier for mediocre drivers to compete with the top drivers, and thats not what motorsport is about. In motorsport the best driver should win, not the best ESP system

its me the real TJ sports who started the thread lol
bloddy ford dealers dicking me around today.

Word of warning - Ford have awful after sales service so make sure you railroad the bastards before taking delivery (although so has MMAL and Holden)

In fact, don't even take delivery if ANYTHING on the car isn't to your liking -don't pick the vehicle up from the dealers after work at night, take delivery in the daytime so you can see paint etc - this rule should apply to all car dealers.

if you read what i said, i never said it wouldnt make the cars quicker,

Yes you did


No ESP is a safety device, it is not a performance device. It will make a dumb driver look like a god, but a great driver will still be able to turn it off and go faster




ESP is designed to control understeer and oversteer, the mclaren rear brake system was not designed to control understeer or oversteer at all, rather it was designed to prevent understeer. Theres a difference.


I will accept there is a difference but there is also a lot of similarities. In my book prevention is a form of control. ESP brakes the inside wheel to reduce/eliminate/control understeer. Mclarens brake system also reduced/elimminated/controled understeer by braking the inside wheel. The major difference is that 1 is computer controlled 1 is human controlled. the mclaren system as I understand it to work, applied the rear inside brake through mid corner. I see no reason that a computer controlled system could not be made to do the same thing.
So yes the Mclaren brake system wasnt ESP, I still retain that ESP could do a similar job.



As for Damon Hill, I never saw him race so i will take note of your opinion. While he may not have been a Great F1 driver, he must have been a very good race driver still.


I wrote this


And as for sliding the cars round, there is a clear difference between an F1 driver having slight under/over stear set up for theire car and Mr Joe Average "Having a go" wanting to get his commodore sideways through a round about..

in response to this


you dont know alot about F1 do you.. F1 cars actually slide around quite alot, its just difficult to see that they are because they are going so quick, it just looks like they went straight through the corner like on rails.


What i ment was ESP would if set would stop Mr Joe average getting it very (deliberately) sideways but shouldnt stop an f1 car moving around with slight to moderate under/over steer




i dont accept this. Why? The latest Ferrari F430 has a VERY tricky ESP system along with its E-Diff and all sorts of other awesome bits of software which make the average driver look like a hero. However, Ferrari acknowledges that a top driver will lap Fiorano (ferrari's test track) faster with the electronics turned off, then they would with it all turned on.

ESP would make it easier for a driver to lap consistantly fast and get the most out of his race car, however it will not necessarily be quicker.

The Ferrari F430 is a road car ,yes its a very good/fast car, but it is still a road car made for Mr Joe Average with money to drive it, I dont know too much about this car so i may be wrong but I would assume the cars ESP would still be geared towards safety over making it faster in the dry. Does it have varying level of ESP ie street - sport - race settings. I wonder if a skilled driver would still be faster in the wet

And i agree that driving aids should not be allowed in motor racing unless there is a form of unrestricted formula where anything and everything is allowed. 1000's of horespower in huged winged monsters sounds good to me

sorry for the hijack TJ sports


I would go witht the yard with the lowest price as you can take your car to any ford dealer for warranty.

try also getting things like a few things thrown in like some free services, window tint (if you want it and it isnt done already) floor mats and dash matts (again if you want them and they arent in it already)

Word of warning - Ford have awful after sales service so make sure you railroad the bastards before taking delivery (although so has MMAL and Holden)

MMAL's after sales service has been excellent for my family. I spose it really depends on the dealer you go to.

I have never had a problem with the dealer we go to whether it be for servicing or a warranty repair. Only negative thing is that you often have to wait a few days before you can bring your car into them. However, I must say they stuffed up giving us free brand new brakes the other week lol

BTW.. we go to Agostino Mitsubishi :) :) (Just giving them the thumbs up!)

Look at other features that the 380 Platinum has compared to the BF XR6 such as bluetooth, parking sensors and sunroof and see if u can get Ford to locate a car with those features and price match Mitsu (I doubt it, but it's worth asking :D :D).

I highly doubt that a BF XR6 has a higher resale value then a Platinum Edition. Look at the original RRP price.

With the Platinum Edition 380 having a host of extra features I think you'll find it'll become something like a TJ VR-X LE if you know what I mean. Having noticably better resale then most other 380 models.

And that 49% figure for the 380, is that SI or SII?

And that 49% figure for the 380, is that SI or SII?
SII.

Disagree on a XR6 with ZF having a resale similiar to a 380.

And TJ Sports - go and test drive a Nissan Maxima and see what Nissan can do for you as well. 2007 Nissan Maxima was the kiwi car of the year I believe.

Have you also been reading the comparos in the latest wheels/motor magazines?

Providing you can afford the extra cost and the extra fuel consumption I still recommend you go and get an XR6T.

Yes you did

no i didnt, i never said that a car with ESP would be slower, i said a car with ESP wouldn't be FASTER, they will be the same speed. only difference is a rubbish driver will be able to drive the car as fast as a really good driver because ESP will fix the mistakes the rubbish driver makes, whereas ESP will do nothing for the good driver because he doesnt make mistakes in the first place







I will accept there is a difference but there is also a lot of similarities. In my book prevention is a form of control. ESP brakes the inside wheel to reduce/eliminate/control understeer. Mclarens brake system also reduced/elimminated/controled understeer by braking the inside wheel. The major difference is that 1 is computer controlled 1 is human controlled. the mclaren system as I understand it to work, applied the rear inside brake through mid corner. I see no reason that a computer controlled system could not be made to do the same thing.
So yes the Mclaren brake system wasnt ESP, I still retain that ESP could do a similar job.

no your still missing the essential difference. ESP is reactive, the mclaren rear brake system was proactive. ESP responds to an understeering car and corrects it by braking individual wheels. The mclaren rear brake system was designed to prevent the car from understeering in the first place. The driver actually brakes the inside rear wheel before the car starts understeering to prevent the understeer from happening in the first place, he doesnt apply the brake when it starts understeering to control it. See ESP doesn't stop a car from understeering, it just controls the understeer once it starts. The mclaren rear brake system actually stopped understeer from happening in the first place.

nar Im out of time plus unis starting this week

hmm im not sure how smart it is to rush into buying a car just cos uni is starting next week.. take your time man it doesnt take long to go test drive all of the cars available in your price range

The suspense is killing me! lol

"And join us next episode to find out if TJ Sports went for the 380! or did he go for the XR6?
Tune in to find out."

The suspense is killing me! lol

"And join us next episode to find out if TJ Sports went for the 380! or did he go for the XR6?
Tune in to find out."
Tell me about it!
I keep checking back here to find out.

dealer: what price would u buy the car at?
me: whats ur best price
dealer: no what price would u buy the car at?
me: no whats ur best price, I can do this all day! lol
dealer: RU serious about buying the car?
me: RU serious ya want to sell me a car? lol
Hahahha!
I was waiting for:
Dealer: shut up
me: no you shut up

So you're going with the Xr6? Can't wait to see it :).

well it gets better cause I was giving the guy from westpoint the 'talk' over the phone when one of the guys here overheard me trying to buy the ford. guess what? his brother in law OWNS duhig ford lol small world. so I go into westpoint and start dropping names, and ya shoulda seen the look on the sales managers face. priceless! lol and he wouldnt give me a price. it went something like:

dealer: what price would u buy the car at?
me: whats ur best price
dealer: no what price would u buy the car at?
me: no whats ur best price, I can do this all day! lol
dealer: RU serious about buying the car?
me: RU serious ya want to sell me a car? lol

so yeah Im going to talk to the owner at duhig and see what they can do.

i had a similar conversation when i bought my wagon!

Dealer: so how much are you willing to spend?
Me: lowest price possible
Dealer: well how much do you want to spend on this car?
Me: whats the best price you can do?
Dealer: that depends on what you can afford to spend
Me: no it doesnt! are you suggesting the price changes depending on how much i have to spend?
Dealer: err...
Me: i'm leaving (turns to leave)
Dealer: No wait! I'll go speak to my manager about what price we can do!

i had a similar conversation when i bought my wagon!

Dealer: so how much are you willing to spend?
Me: lowest price possible
Dealer: well how much do you want to spend on this car?
Me: whats the best price you can do?
Dealer: that depends on what you can afford to spend
Me: no it doesnt! are you suggesting the price changes depending on how much i have to spend?
Dealer: err...
Me: i'm leaving (turns to leave)
Dealer: No wait! I'll go speak to my manager about what price we can do!
OMG I HATE that line. Sometimes i think, wtf do "managers" even hire salesman? They can't do anything without checking with the manager first, the manager might as well just do it :P.

OMG I HATE that line. Sometimes i think, wtf do "managers" even hire salesman? They can't do anything without checking with the manager first, the manager might as well just do it :P.

its just a sales tactic, same with "we only have one of these left so if you dont get this one you will have to wait a couple of months before we get another one in" and "we actually have someone coming to see this same car at 4 o'clock, unfortunately i can't hold it for you unless you sign a contract"

its just a sales tactic, same with "we only have one of these left so if you dont get this one you will have to wait a couple of months before we get another one in" and "we actually have someone coming to see this same car at 4 o'clock, unfortunately i can't hold it for you unless you sign a contract"
Hehe yeh i know it's a sale tactic, i was trying to be sarcastic in my post (really hard to do over the intarweb). It's so old and every salesman does it, do people actually believe it these days?

Hehe yeh i know it's a sale tactic, i was trying to be sarcastic in my post (really hard to do over the intarweb). It's so old and every salesman does it, do people actually believe it these days?

heh yeah i know i was just expanding on your point :cool:

Thinking about it - you might be better with an Aurion :badgrin: At least their reliable.

Thinking about it - you might be better with an Aurion :badgrin: At least their reliable.

The Toyota salesmen are reliable? :confused:

[joke]

the heart wants what the heart wants! i find it so damn hard to walk past a mitsubishi whenever i am buying a car too! I came damn close to buying my fiance a lancer for her little run around car a couple of months ago but i couldnt find a suitable one so i got her an astra, and although the astra is a damn nice little car, whenever i see a little MR lancer coupe running around i hear a voice in my head saying "you bought the WRONG DAMN CAR stupid!"

So TJ, what happened? We're all holding our breath.....

FYI I think a few members have had paint issues with the Storm colour. Seems it's not quite as good as the others - must be in the pigment

ur forgetting im a lawyer (LLb student) :bowrofl:
.
Your forgetting I'm a bean counter (specifically Enterprise Growth). (BCom with a CA very shortly) :bowrofl:

FYI I think a few members have had paint issues with the Storm colour. Seems it's not quite as good as the others - must be in the pigment

To be fair to Mitsu I think that was only one member here, although he did say he noticed some other cars affected. The example I had profferred was actually painted OS. Also that was last year so hopefully won't be repeated.

^ Yeah from memory it was just the one member on here but I believe the comment "I've noticed that on several of the Storm coloured cars" was made by a couple of our members.

lol yeah I decided on the 380 platinum but I went into the dealer today and guess what? forgot my wallet at home lol plus I couldnt decide on color and spoiler. the spoilers are dealer fit and I couldnt decide b/n no spoiler, bob tail or vrx+lights. im going to put up a poll with pictures. so yeah i will do the paper work tommorw.

So you can choose (dealer fit?) VRX tail lights on the Platinum? And head lights too? Cos the Platinum has the standard head/tail lights but with VRX front/rear bumpers. But I reckon with VRX head lights, it'd look awesome with that mesh grille.
If that was what you were saying, how much is it to change-over to VRX tail lights and boot bob-tail?

yep with the platinum edition the dealer fits the spoiler and accessories so a different spoiler can be ordered. I think its 100 extra for the VRX spoiler and 300 for the lights. but u keep the current set. its also around 300 for the GT door moulds they come already painted. didnt ask abt the head lights but I think its the same deal as the tail lights.

Cool, thanks. I know this is straying from the thread-direction (so I'll make it brief), but I've been considering changing my head+tail lights, and of course need that boot lid thing too.
Next week I'll visit the dealer I got my car from and check those prices.
And hey, good luck with the Platinum... keep us updated.

It may not always be him driving the car, it could be his children, his wife, brother, he could be sleepy, now you may not think you need it because your e-penis is so large... sorry... you driving skills are good enough, but it is never going to do any damage having it there.

In my honest opinion I think the 380 is a let down for the 600-MILLION spent on "ADAPTING" it to Australian conditions.


LOL... that means that $600 million divided by 20 thousand units means that the base model could have been sold for free and the GT for $10,000 if they just sold us the more powerful american model ! lol I would have taken that deal !

JT Sports: before I bought my 380 GT I looked around at all the available cars and nothing caught my eye... for the prices you can get a GT ($39K) there is nothing in Holden or Ford that can really compare on features... unless you buy second hand. The braking on the 380 is great... I personally have slammed my foot down on the brakes at 110km/h and the car was stopped dead around 30 meters...no squeaks from the tyres. Great BUT dangerous because the guy in the old ford behind you will be picking glass out of his teeth for the next week.

The 380 turns like a supertanker as well... serious understeer but a tight road feel non-the-less. Once you are used to it (its bigger than a Magna) you should be able to get yourself out of most trouble with no problem.

Take a VRX or GT for a test drive first then drive one of the 'cheaper' models (all the same performace specs across the range regardless of price) so see how the bigger tyres and 'sport tuned suspension' make the car handle.

With the Traction Control on you can feel very clearly when the computer throttles down if you push too hard on takeoff or around corners and especially and I mean ESPECIALLY if you push it really hard from a stop and turn 90 degrees... it almost stalls out. With the TCL off it will spin its tyres very easily.

I love my GT but if I had anything bad to say and if I had any regrets... the turning cirlce is a royal pain in the ass and the paintwork is crap (I have the same blotchy spray gun drizzle in my molten-red 380 GT that other people say is only in the storm grey) and the paint scratches by just breathing on it. LOTS of time keeping wax on it. BUT damned... doesnt the molten red GT draw lots of eyes !! ;)

29792

I remember the same arguement when ABS came in people saying they made brakes idiot proof. now there accepted as a mandatory safety item. ESC also helps with black ice and cornering in the wet.

But remember when ABS first came out it was a system plagued with faults, hence the people not liking it (It could still lock up quite easily...ever driven an ABS equipped 2nd gen?). ESC isn't that new either...it's been around for quite a while...it's just that 10 years on Australia has gone "Oh hey...we might use that now"

The sales thing is funny, because they all know they have to get the money offer from the buyer first, not the other way around.