Saw this article today (while hearing Holden plan to sack 600 production staff)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/mitsubishi-confirms-380-replacement/2007/03/05/1172943335566.html

Seems everything you read/hear about the 380 is bad. Is this car doomed to fail? Or maybe this just isn't the right time for this car?

If it isn't as large as the large car today (as the article says) that is probably a good move looking at the current market. If it isn't as large it should also weigh less, making it more likely that a smalley (i.e. 4 cylinder) engine could be offered alongside the V6.

I'm really interested as to what MMC will make the next-gen large car look like when looking at other new products (Outlander, Lancer, Pajero). I think it will be a mighty-fine looking car if those products are anything to go by.

If the cars dimensions are significantly smaller though, and considering the next-Gen Lancer (released here in June this year) is larger then the previous Lancer then people may simply opt for the Lancer if the new large car doesn't offer that much more room; however, I doubt it would be the same size as the new Lancer.

Fingers crossed the next-gen large car is made for all RHD markets here in Oz :D

That's really not bad news.

It's not really any news at all- except for confirmation that MMC will continue with some sort of medium/large car.

i hope its not going to be much smaller cause I wont buy one. i reckon the current 380 should be classed as a mid-sized car. I took the work WL statesman for a spin today and it was soooo comfortable.

seems like an admission of failure for the 380 - mind you, a development like this will take quite some time to come to a final product - so we should see quie a few 380's built in that time - but could this result in the shelving of the TMR380? - one can only speculate....

thats nothing at all ...

if anything its a very good sign, its saying there is good chances local plants will be kept open long enough to see the next generation car, and lets be honest this isnt going to happen tommorrow its years down the track..

so its a good thing

I just hope that when america gets its galant replacement we get our 380 replacement at the same time :) This way it will be a new car when it comes out and will have a 'new' interior and exterior. This way it will be more competitive.

What's all this rubbish from you people? Doomed to fail? An admission of failure? Good God. It's been well documented that a decision on the vehicle to replace the 380 at the end of it's lifecycle (2011) would come later this year.

I actually find that article to be more good news than bad. It has an inference that, contrary to popular belief, as I believe, that MMC will close Tonsley Park at the end of 380's lifespan (2011), there still could be a future beyond 380. Only question is, what?

Hopefully by then it could be some kind of turbo-diesel/petrol-electric hybrid, or hydrogen fuel cell, or even MIEV where there are four small engines (1 in each wheel) powered by an all-electric drivetrain etc. The issue here however is that this would equate to further expensive upgrading to Tonsley Park.

Every car has an "end of the road":

VE Commodore ends in 2014 - it's doomed
Aurion ends in 2012 - it's doomed
380 ends in 2011 - it's doomed
BF Falcon ends in less than 12 months - it's doomed

Get over it, 380 ain't gonna last forever, whether it sells 1,000 cars per month or 3,000.

Some very good points made here throughout a mix of responses. So for mine: yes of course every car is "doomed" in that it cannot last forever (Magna for example) - and the very mention of a replacement (locally produced?) does at least give good news for the future of plant and staff here too.

If the 380 has another 5-ish years life in it, that's not too bad. But it'd be a same if MMAL pulled out of the large car market for something smaller; there are already plenty of small cars out there now.

But surely the main focus of this "news" is that it would seem even less likely now that the TMR380 will ever see the light of day. I could be wrong, and I hope I am; MMAL could definately use a flagship like the TMR380 to bolster its image - but this isn't the best climate in which to make it.

Anyway I agree that this is far from doom and gloom. My main point was why does everybody always critisize the 380?

the replacement needs to be awd or have an awd model or rwd. not all fwd. the general public dont like fwd they believe awd or rwd is safer.

the replacement needs to be awd or have an awd model or rwd. not all fwd. the general public dont like fwd they believe awd or rwd is safer.

Besides the Falcon and Commodore, all the cars in the top 10 sales figures are FWDs. with the Corolla in 2nd place.

I'd say size and fuel economy are a bigger driving factor then witch wheels do the driving.

But surely the main focus of this "news" is that it would seem even less likely now that the TMR380 will ever see the light of day. I could be wrong, and I hope I am; MMAL could definately use a flagship like the TMR380 to bolster its image - but this isn't the best climate in which to make it.
Not sure where you're coming from here mate. Whatever ends up replacing the 380 has no correlation with the TMR whatsoever.

- and the very mention of a replacement (locally produced?) does at least give good news for the future of plant and staff here too.

But surely the main focus of this "news" is that it would seem even less likely now that the TMR380 will ever see the light of day. I could be wrong, and I hope I am; MMAL could definately use a flagship like the TMR380 to bolster its image - but this isn't the best climate in which to make it.



It doesn't really mention whether it will be locally produced. It certainly wont be designed here. As for the TMR380 why would you say it probably wont see the light of day? If 380's are produced for the next few years, there is no reason not to release it. Most of the money is spent on development already.

bring back the magna
bring back the magna
.... repeat to infinity

Anyway I agree that this is far from doom and gloom. My main point was why does everybody always critisize the 380?

I think everyone's expectation was that MMAL would follow the Magna with a car that would directly compete with the Falcadorery (that's a new word, folks, includes the Camry ;) ), have a state of the art multi cam engine (as seen in the Pajero) and continue the AWD.

Instead, the 380 has tried to fill a perceived niche between the midsize cars Mazda 6, Euro and the large cars. Not to mention there was no money to develop anything new from the corporate cupboard.

So by trying to be all things to all people it's acceptance has been crap. If you look at it in a different light, away from the large car concept, it's a good car, but the black sheep, owing nothing to the Magna before it.

As time goes on it might gain a new perception, something to build on with future models, but it's probably too late.

Not sure where you're coming from here mate. Whatever ends up replacing the 380 has no correlation with the TMR whatsoever.
I just meant that with the bad rap the media always gives the 380, combined with current sales numbers, the TMR may not get the fair chance of "birth" that it deserves (what with people and media just waiting to bag it even more).
I certainly don't know how to read market trends, so maybe I'm wrong - and I hope I am: I would love to see that red thing on the road as much as the next person!


As for the TMR380 why would you say it probably wont see the light of day? If 380's are produced for the next few years, there is no reason not to release it. Most of the money is spent on development already.
I just thought that current sales may discourage them (MMAL and Head Office) from giving the go-ahead. But I agree there is almost no reason NOT to start making it. MMAL should start spitting the things out as soon as possible (and before the next model shape) to help lift public image, form a performance platform, etc etc. So I hope they do!


I think everyone's expectation was that MMAL would follow the Magna with a car that would directly compete with the Falcadorery (that's a new word, folks, includes the Camry ;) ), have a state of the art multi cam engine (as seen in the Pajero) and continue the AWD.
Instead, the 380 has tried to fill a perceived niche between the midsize cars Mazda 6, Euro and the large cars. Not to mention there was no money to develop anything new from the corporate cupboard.
So by trying to be all things to all people it's acceptance has been crap. If you look at it in a different light, away from the large car concept, it's a good car, but the black sheep, owing nothing to the Magna before it.
As time goes on it might gain a new perception, something to build on with future models, but it's probably too late.
Yes, in a sense it seems like MMAL dropped the ball with some aspects of the 380, considering potential features it could have boasted, but regardless they have still made a great car. I have no regrets having bought mine.

yeah and holden has admited that there will be a total VE replacement by 2012, they actually said that BEFORE the VE officially went on sale, does that mean the VE is a failure too? OMG they are planning to build a 380 replacement! what did you think they would go on building the 380 forever? the fact they are planning on replacing it with something rather then just abandoning the large car concept all together suggests that they believe that there IS a market for a large sedan, not the other way round. This is actually overwelmingly positive news, not the other way around!

As for tonsley park, i think it has a future. The failings of the 380 doesn't take away from the fact that tonsley park is one of the most advanced and efficient vehicle manufacturing plants in the world, and probably the most efficient plant in the MMC portfolio. I very much doubt MMC will kill it just because of the failings of 1 car. They will just re-tool it to build either the 380 replacement or another car such as the lancer or pajero or something

i hope its not going to be much smaller cause I wont buy one. i reckon the current 380 should be classed as a mid-sized car. I took the work WL statesman for a spin today and it was soooo comfortable.

I don't think the 380 should be classed as a mid sized car. Appearances can be deceiving.

I have upgraded from a TJ magna to a 380 VRX and i was worried that the 380 would be quite a bit smaller, but i've found out that its actually a bit bigger than the tj's.

If the commodore and falcon are large cars, then so is a 380 IMO.
the commodore is 39mm longer and 59mm wider than the 380
and the falcon is 61mm longer and 24mm wider than the 380.
and the 380 is 3mm taller than the commodore and 36mm taller than the falcon.
(Comparison vehicles are '07 DB Series II 380 VRX, '07 VE Commodore SV6 & '07 BF Falcon XR6 Turbo. Dimensions taken from RedBook AsiaPacific)

If you park these cars side by side, you would hardly notice the difference. But when the 380 is parked on its own, it looks closer to the size of the lancers.

Btw. bit unfair comparing a statesman to a 380 - its like comparing a lancer to a commodore.

Btw. bit unfair comparing a statesman to a 380 - its like comparing a lancer to a commodore.

yeah thats what im saying if they make it any smaller it will be lancer size so it will be comparing a lancer with a commodore.

[QUOTE=gavski007]
If you park these cars side by side, you would hardly notice the difference. But when the 380 is parked on its own, it looks closer to the size of the lancers.
[QUOTE]

I think that's a very good point and backs up that MMAL were trying to entice buyers from the midrange cars. Well, they got one...

If you park these cars side by side, you would hardly notice the difference. But when the 380 is parked on its own, it looks closer to the size of the lancers.
Yeah me too, when I first saw the 380 it looks more mid-size than large-size, but I immediately found it to be much larger on the inside than it appears capable of being (like the Tardis) - especially rear seat leg room. And when parked in my garage, it appears to be about the same size as my Commodore.

Looks like 380 Series III is some time away
http://carpoint.com.au/car-review/2468662.aspx

>> On 2007 plans…
According to chairman Rob the rest of 2007 looks as follows:

Triton 2.4 4x2 petrol -- April
Triton 4x4 3.2 CDI automatic transmission -- third quarter
380 Series III -- third quarter
All-new Lancer -- third quarter
All-new EVO -- "to follow shortly after"
Pajero updates -- fourth quarter
Outlander updates -- fourth quarter
Triton 4x2 Diesel -- fourth quarter

No surprises there whatsoever. Wouldn't have expected series 3 to be any earlier than 3rd qtr of this year, I just hope the TMR 380 can be included in the lineup.

looks like things are looking ok at MMAL, good to see

Seems everything you read/hear about the 380 is bad. Is this car doomed to fail? Or maybe this just isn't the right time for this car?

Oh get over it,mate.If mitsubishi is doomed,so is ford then holden.They all got to sell cars againt imported cars.It don't help that the gov don't really care.:doubt:

Lets see what Adelaide does with the first "facelift". Hopefully the BS tickle from the TM-TN-TP and TR-TS and TE-TF-TH-TJ-TL has taught the tonsley people a real facelift is TL-TW like. Or even GE sigma to GH sigma, the 380 needs the same sort of change that saw the AU develop into the BA Falcon.

Lets see what Adelaide does with the first "facelift". Hopefully the BS tickle from the TM-TN-TP and TR-TS and TE-TF-TH-TJ-TL has taught the tonsley people a real facelift is TL-TW like. Or even GE sigma to GH sigma, the 380 needs the same sort of change that saw the AU develop into the BA Falcon.

umm the change from a TL-TW was like a series II badge, and ???????

anyway i dont think mitsu has a spare $500 million that it cost ford to go from AU to BA.

Lets see what Adelaide does with the first "facelift". Hopefully the BS tickle from the TM-TN-TP and TR-TS and TE-TF-TH-TJ-TL has taught the tonsley people a real facelift is TL-TW like. Or even GE sigma to GH sigma, the 380 needs the same sort of change that saw the AU develop into the BA Falcon.

Ah the GH! the last great sigma. By all accounts , series III addresses the major issues with the 380. I would seriously have bought 380 platinum except I can't let my AWD go. I love it :) I'd only sell it for newer AWD

umm the change from a TL-TW was like a series II badge, and ???????

anyway i dont think mitsu has a spare $500 million that it cost ford to go from AU to BA.
Dont forget the colour coded headlights :doubt:

Ah the GH! the last great sigma. By all accounts , series III addresses the major issues with the 380. I would seriously have bought 380 platinum except I can't let my AWD go. I love it :) I'd only sell it for newer AWD

What major issues? Mechanical or asthetics?

Dont forget the colour coded headlights :doubt:

Hey dont bag the colour coding....was a vast improvement over the black and chrome ones...and it was the only thing we could do to make them look half decent.... Thanks again for that dogs breakfast Mr Bouley....

yeah thats what im saying if they make it any smaller it will be lancer size so it will be comparing a lancer with a commodore.
No if they make it smaller they will be in another class.
What MMAL needs to realise is that they NEED a 4 cylinder. Fair enough they might not be cheaper to run than the V6 but the public perceives 4 pots to be cheaper to run than 6.

As for tonsley park, i think it has a future. The failings of the 380 doesn't take away from the fact that tonsley park is one of the most advanced and efficient vehicle manufacturing plants in the world, and probably the most efficient plant in the MMC portfolio. I very much doubt MMC will kill it just because of the failings of 1 car. They will just re-tool it to build either the 380 replacement or another car such as the lancer or pajero or something

If what McEniry says is true Tonsley Park would have to be among the most efficient in the world. If it can make money building just 55 cars a day, thats better than what most in the mainstream auto industry can do (I'm not alking about exotics here).

If what McEniry says is true Tonsley Park would have to be among the most efficient in the world. If it can make money building just 55 cars a day, thats better than what most in the mainstream auto industry can do (I'm not alking about exotics here).

i dont think the actual 380 production is profitable, what he means is that MMAL as a whole are profitable. MMAL's imported models are selling extreemly well and the profits from them are covering any losses made by the 380 program

hehehe, as much as they try, the 380 will never break ice, it just doesn't cut it in the eyes of the public, i don't don't think they will shut down, i just don't think they ever be in the top end of the car market share

Let me tell you guys that MMAL will actually announce that it has made a PROFIT very soon
yes a profit i know its hard to believe but P&A costs a fortune LOL,and also that a facelit 380is slated for 2008 so there aint no doom and gloom as yet

Let me tell you guys that MMAL will actually announce that it has made a PROFIT very soon
yes a profit i know its hard to believe but P&A costs a fortune LOL,and also that a facelit 380is slated for 2008 so there aint no doom and gloom as yet

Gross profit or net profit? Still, a profit is a profit. If Holden and Ford fail to make a profit selling the number of cars they sell then it shows MMAL (and Rob McEniry :)) must be doing something right.

Let me tell you guys that MMAL will actually announce that it has made a PROFIT very soon
yes a profit i know its hard to believe but P&A costs a fortune LOL,and also that a facelit 380is slated for 2008 so there aint no doom and gloom as yet

probably due to 380 platinum owners who buy 2 sets of headlights,tailights,spoilers lol

Gross profit or net profit? Still, a profit is a profit. If Holden and Ford fail to make a profit selling the number of cars they sell then it shows MMAL (and Rob McEniry :)) must be doing something right.

to be fair GM and ford's problems are in the US, not australia, both brands australian operations are profitable, but your point is taken.

MMAL was always going to make a profit this year, their imported vehicles have been traveling very well, but dont confuse MMAL making a profit with the 380 being profitable.... MMAL still need to do some tweeking of the 380 before it starts making money. However MMAL have doen a VERY good job of minimising the loss's made on the 380 program so that the profits made on the rest of their model range can cover those losses and return MMAL a decent profit

380 needs a stretch and some more rear headroom straight up. We wanted to buy one, but the TW magna is just a much more comfortable car inside due to the interior volume. We won't be buying another car for about 10 years , so who knows what Mitsu will offer then?
I see a wheelbase lengthening in the 380's future, it's cheap, and would aim the car at the large car market again. Worked for Toyota, and in a front drive platform, it is relatively easy.
The problem Mitsubishi has, and has always had, is Holden, and to a lesser extent, Ford "own" the motoring media in Australia, and Holden can do no wrong according to teh majority of motoring writers. So when Holden morons dribble on about front drive being bad, how "great" and "world class" the Commodore is (conveniently ignoring the fact that Mitsubishi forced Ford and Holden to lift their games with the TR on Magnas in every respect, engineering, ride and handling, comfort, fit & finish etc, even Holden dribbling on about exporting their cars, Mitsu beat them to that too!) teh motoring public laps it up.
Let's face it, you're NEVER going to get a bogan to buy a front drive(how can you wrap a front drive car around a pole in the bogan fashion?), and they'll NEVER buy anything but whatever their mates or family want them to buy, which is not a Mitsubishi......
Tonsley park won't close, it'll just be retooled, IF it gets to that stage.

Regards, Andrew.

Cheers mate,

Well I'm scratching my head over this.
If you look at the spec sheets, particularly rear seat room you'll find the 380 has more by about 2 cm. The headroom, yes I'll pay you that one.

In fact when I went from 97 KE to 380 I found a lot more useable room in the new car and my two teenage kids found the same. The only minus for the 380 is the reduced boot space, although the hinges no longer intrude.

Personally I can't see Mitsu lengthening the wheelbase; at the moment it appears to sit somewhere between mid and large size in looks, although in reality it has large car dimensions.

I'm like nearly 100% sure the only places the 380 is smaller then the Magna (or perhaps Verada.. which is longer then the Magna) is in overall length, front legroom, rear headroom and the boot.

Here's the stats:


http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3262/magnaverada380comparisozn7.jpg

I'm surprised at the height difference actually.

All in all, the most important category is 'awesomeness', and the 380 comes out far ahead there :cool:

I'm surprised at the height difference actually.

All in all, the most important category is 'awesomeness', and the 380 comes out far ahead there :cool:

You're telling me! I don't know how they don't move more 380's. I'm sure it's the name only.

Commodore Omega - $35,000 - 0-100 / 8.1secs - fuel eco 10.9
Falcon MKII - $35,000 - 0-100 / 7.8secs - fuel eco 10.7
380 ES - $28,000 - 0-100 / 7.3 - fuel eco 11.3

Sure the fuel eco is a tiny bit worse, but mine is way worse!!!

And who needs all the extra features that you get, as long as you get A/C, that's all you need!

Mitsubishi FTW!

Commodore Omega - $35,000 - 0-100 / 8.1secs - fuel eco 10.9


Having driven a 4 speed *shudder* auto omega, I can tell you its not even close to 8.1. Sits more around the 9 second mark...maybe a bit over 9.

LoL, mine's 9 seconds though!

It's worse than the figures say???!! :O

Yeah, the six speed box is a 'night and day' difference on the commo. The four speed box is a fleet special so to speak, and belongs back in the 80's, or possibly the 70's lol. Now if only Mitsu wasn't so financially restricted, and the 380 had a six speed box...

Yeah, the six speed box is a 'night and day' difference on the commo. The four speed box is a fleet special so to speak, and belongs back in the 80's, or possibly the 70's lol. Now if only Mitsu wasn't so financially restricted, and the 380 had a six speed box...

What are you going to do with a 6 speed though ? too many speed cameras around :D

thing is tho.. how much is the "oh no its only a 4 speeder" is just pure wank factor? I've driven a 380 with a 5 speeder and a VE berlina with a 4speeder and i really dont see how the 5 speeder is better? The berlina's gearbox worked just fine, responded just as well as the 380's, kickdown's where just as smooth, in general it felt just as good as the 380's gearbox. I know the 4 speeder in the VZ was crap but the gearbox in the VE feels much better, whether its because its better integrated with the motor or what i dont know but theres nothing wrong with it.

i tend to think its mostly a wank factor "my gearbox has more ratio's then yours"

thing is tho.. how much is the "oh no its only a 4 speeder" is just pure wank factor? I've driven a 380 with a 5 speeder and a VE berlina with a 4speeder and i really dont see how the 5 speeder is better? The berlina's gearbox worked just fine, responded just as well as the 380's, kickdown's where just as smooth, in general it felt just as good as the 380's gearbox. I know the 4 speeder in the VZ was crap but the gearbox in the VE feels much better, whether its because its better integrated with the motor or what i dont know but theres nothing wrong with it.

i tend to think its mostly a wank factor "my gearbox has more ratio's then yours"

No offence, but I totally disagree there. It has nothing to do with wank factor. The main problem in comparing different gearboxes between different model cars is the way they are tuned. Mitsu's boxes are notoriously known to be quite pedestrian (though imo a 5speed 380 box ****s on a omega 4spd). But compare a 4 spd omega with a 6 speed omega and the difference is so obvious it shouts out at you (not literally). Likewise, drive a Benz C180K with the 5 speed, then drive a 7 speed C320 (bigger motor I know), and it definately seems to make a massive difference to the feel of the car.

No offence, but I totally disagree there. It has nothing to do with wank factor. The main problem in comparing different gearboxes between different model cars is the way they are tuned. Mitsu's boxes are notoriously known to be quite pedestrian (though imo a 5speed 380 box ****s on a omega 4spd). But compare a 4 spd omega with a 6 speed omega and the difference is so obvious it shouts out at you (not literally). Likewise, drive a Benz C180K with the 5 speed, then drive a 7 speed C320 (bigger motor I know), and it definately seems to make a massive difference to the feel of the car.

if comparing different gearbox's in different cars is an invalid comparison, then so is comparing diferrent gearbox's combined with different engines. A more valid comparison would be the 4speed omega vs a 5speed SV6, something i have also done, as the engines are more or less the same barring minor tuning differences. Again the 4speeder is in no way disgraced. The 4 speeder is rubbish in the VZ, i conceed that, but in VE it is significantly improved. And having more gear ratio's makes no difference at all to the feel of a car, its the shift quality and the intiuitiveness of the shifting which makes all the difference, and in VE the 4 speed box does both of these things just as well as most auto's going round. That is my point. Dissagree if you will, but at the end of the day 90% of buyers wont know any difference anyway, its only car guys like you and me who really care lol

But the omega comes both 4 and 6 speed with the same motor doesn't it? And yes, most people who don't really care about cars couldnt give a stuff anyhows.

Dissagree if you will, but at the end of the day 90% of buyers wont know any difference anyway, its only car guys like you and me who really care lol
This is what Ford and Holden used to say when pressed about when they were going to introduce IRS into their cars. 90% of buyers wouldn't know the difference... Just imagine a VE with the 5 link live axle like a VB and VS under its ass? Would that be competitive with the world market? Nope.

You cant buy a LFV6 VE without a 4 speed auto in an Omega but with the Falcon (XT) you can have either the 4 or the 6 at extra cost. At least Ford give the buyer the choice of what transmission yoiu want in your fleet hack whereas Holden do not. BTW i hear whispers that the Orion Falcon will be running the ZF 6 speeder across the range.

the 6 speed auto is only available on V8 models, the base alloytec in berlina and omega come in 4spd auto only, the alloytec 195 in SV6 and calais come with the 5 speed auto or 6 speed manual in SV6 models.

anyway its not like holden are the only ones, no one seems to say anything about the fact that base model subaru liberty's only come with a 4 speeder, to get a 5 speed auto in the liberty you have to shelf out for the high end models, just like commodore, how come no one ever says anything about that? oh thats right cos the commodore is a commodore :doubt:

seriously tho the debate is about to become irrelivant as VE series II is very likely to come with direct injection on V6 engines, which will both siginificantly improve power output and fuel consumption (try 200kw on base variant and 225kw on higher spec variants), and will be mated to the 5speed auto in omega and berlina and a 6 speed auto in calais and SV6. V8 models will keep the same gearboxs although its possible that the V8's will pick up variable valve timing (yes it is possible to have this on a pushrod engine) and displacement on demand, although the V8 uprades may have to wait till the mid cycle VF upgrade as the V6 upgrades are quite understandably of a very high importants to holden, as although the V8 models are selling their pants off in record numbers, the V6 models are slightly below where holden wants them to be, and they see the fuel economy benefits of direct injection as a good way of getting V6 buyers back. average consumption figures of just 9L/100km is the target

despite this people will still no doubt show their ignorance and call a car with a direct injected V6 and a 5 or 6 speed auto low tech lol

by the way, for the record and for the 50,000th time, i am NOT a holden fan, have always been a mitsubishi fan, i just happen to think holden have done a very good job with VE and would buy a VE SS in a hearbeat if i had the cash

despite this people will still no doubt show their ignorance and call a car with a direct injected V6 and a 5 or 6 speed auto low tech lol

But they are low tech cars in the grand scheme of things. Compare a Mercedes/BMW/Audi etc to any aussie built, or jap built cars. It's like chalk and cheese with the technology, fit and finish. A BMW or Benz V8 versus a holden V8, its light years apart.

But they are low tech cars in the grand scheme of things. Compare a Mercedes/BMW/Audi etc to any aussie built, or jap built cars. It's like chalk and cheese with the technology, fit and finish. A BMW or Benz V8 versus a holden V8, its light years apart.
And that is why i will not buy another import, overteched for no real gain as far as longevity, comfort and reliability goes.
GIve me simpler and easier to work on, and I'll forego paying twice as much for some more electric fluffers and a 5% improvement in ride quality over a locally made car. Seriously, for what 99% of the people do with their cars, anything Australian or Japanese built is more than adequate. Some people love to polish their badges though.......I could find more than a few lower spec BMW/Audi/Benzes in the recent past that are pretty bloody ordinary, do not forget we usually only see mid/high range gear over here from those manufacturers, so it's not really a fair comparison. Fairer would be comparing a German taxi spec BMW, Merc or Audi with a base model Mitsu,Ford or Holden. You'd be shocked how good teh local cars look then.
Guess what I am saying is european cars(sedans) are ridiculously over rated(for the price, no doubt they are fine cars), and the used prices they bring seem to reflect that (50% drop in two years is not unusual). It is interesting that when a euro car gets to around 10-15 years old here in Australia, it's almost impossible to get rid of at a reasonable price, due to the ridiculous repair/running costs. Any Australian car is still soldiering on well, and won't cost a deposit on a new car for a new transmission.
A four speed auto is plenty behind (beside?) any torquey V6/8, more gears is purely to sell more cars, fuel economy and acceleration numbers don't go up by very much with an extra gear or two, but rebuild and replacement unit costs go through the roof on these 5 and 6 speed boxes.
Mind you, the way the European cars are chasing peak hp numbers at high rpms at the expense of useable torque, I can understand why they are having to use six speed boxes.
It is a classic example of the marketing departments conditioning the buyers to realise they have a need their new car fills, but there is no actual need in the first place. The need being six speed boxes, created by the lack of useable torque of high revving quad cam engines. Both look pretty in brochures, but achieve very little in the real world.

Regards, Andrew.

But they are low tech cars in the grand scheme of things. Compare a Mercedes/BMW/Audi etc to any aussie built, or jap built cars. It's like chalk and cheese with the technology, fit and finish. A BMW or Benz V8 versus a holden V8, its light years apart.

yeah but mate you cant compare a premium luxury car to a family car! Its like saying a nissan 350Z isnt in the same league as a BMW M3, well ofcourse its not but nor is it intended to be! I mean ofcourse a benz or BMW v8 ****s over a holden V8 in terms of technology, but since when have you been able to get a benz of BMW V8 for 45 grand? And anyway i think you'll find that although the spec sheets are light years apart, the LS2 V8 in terms of real drivability is a match for anything but the very best of benz and audi V8's

If holden knew they could sell their cars at premium pricing like bmw, merceedes and audi does, then they would be able to pack a hell of alot more engineering into their cars, but they cant sell their cars for that price, its unrealistic, so they have to build their cars to a lowre price then the others and hence the difference. The fact that the VE is as close to the premium luxury cars as it is just goes to prove the depth of engineering talent we have here in australia. I hate it when people think that just cos a car is designed by aussies its no good, australia's engineers are amongst the best in the world, they just dont have as bigger budget to play with thats all! The fact that they can make a car 80% as good as the equivilant benz or BMW (much better then 80% in some areas) for around 20% of the budget is massively impressive

what you have to compare the commodore to is other family cars such as the ford falcon, toyota camry/aurion, mitsu 380, mazda 6, honda accord, subaru liberty, etc, and against those opposition the VE stacks up pretty well in most areas.

Also try to remember that just cos something is massively high tech, doesnt necessarily make it better. The williams F1 team use to use the radiators from tiny little citroen hatchbacks (forget the specific model it was) in their race cars because they did just as good a job as something they could engineer themselfs, and for only a third the cost. Up untill 2005 rolls royce was running a pushrod V8 in their uber expensive luxury cars, and that engine was as smooth and as refined as your ever likely to find

Yes guys, but you need to consider the difference in markets here. In many european countries, the E class and 5 series are your garden variety 'commodore' cars. Wages, values, prices are different. Having lived overseas and being exposed to this difference, in my mind there is very little aussie and euro cars have in common. I agree with you though when you say euro cars are extremely overpriced here, they definately are! But that gets me back to my original point that that doesn't make up for the technology difference. Aussie cars are great for the simple fact that they are value for money in Australia. Hell, thats about the only reason I've owned jap cars before, and the main reason I bought my car :p

Yes guys, but you need to consider the difference in markets here. In many european countries, the E class and 5 series are your garden variety 'commodore' cars. Wages, values, prices are different. Having lived overseas and being exposed to this difference, in my mind there is very little aussie and euro cars have in common. I agree with you though when you say euro cars are extremely overpriced here, they definately are! But that gets me back to my original point that that doesn't make up for the technology difference. Aussie cars are great for the simple fact that they are value for money in Australia. Hell, thats about the only reason I've owned jap cars before, and the main reason I bought my car :p

actually its the C-class and 3 series that is the "garden variety" versions of merceedes and bmw in europe, the E-class and 5 series are still quite expensive even in europe, and even the c class and 3 series are sold at a premium over things like ford mondeo's and opel vectra's. Its just that in alot of european countries there is a larger market for premium cars and therefore there are more of them around then in australia

Blah. Why doesn't one of the local manufactures put a diesel engine into one of their sedans? A Commodore or 380 with a 3L TDi engine would sell well.

Blah. Why doesn't one of the local manufactures put a diesel engine into one of their sedans? A Commodore or 380 with a 3L TDi engine would sell well.
It'sa coming!

It'sa coming!

It would be nice the 380 get it first!

MMAL has ruled out the possibility of a diesel for the current 380, ford is working on a landrover derived TDV6 for the falcon and territory, holden is also working on a TDV6 which is currently being developed by GM europe. Holden will probably win the "race" to get one into production, as ford for some reason won't have it read for the "orion" update due later this year, which i would have thought would have been the logical time to introduce it but anyway...

MMAL has ruled out the possibility of a diesel for the current 380, ford is working on a landrover derived TDV6 for the falcon and territory, holden is also working on a TDV6 which is currently being developed by GM europe. Holden will probably win the "race" to get one into production, as ford for some reason won't have it read for the "orion" update due later this year, which i would have thought would have been the logical time to introduce it but anyway...
I believe Territory will be getting it (2.7 twin turbo version) @ oct/nov.

hope so for ford's sake, they are struggling a bit just atm, and the territory currently has absolutely woeful fuel economy