i have a 1998 tf solara 5spd and for a while i was looking into forced induction in a quest for power, and now i have seen the error of my ways and focused on response and handling therefore ending the forced induction debate...for now.I got to talking to a few people that are in the buisness of tuning cars, and they seem to belive that with a few seemingly cheap components (compaired to a turbo/supercharger kit) i.e. aftermarket ecu (something along the lines of a motec or microtek system),hi-flowed throttle body, and the basic k&n number and the exhaust you can acheive alteast 200kw with a good old tune. Then there would be no dire need to strengthen internals or to quench its thirst nearly as much. I belive that intrigate tuning and car set up is far better than just bolting on a turbo or 2. Don't get me wrong i love a boosted car just as much as anyone, but ya should work on perfecting what you have before you tackle anything like that. And if you dont have yet feel enough power at your feet then you should look at turbo/charger. I look at some of the power figures of various turbo'd and charged cars on this site and i wasnt stunned at the outputs i was expecting more

i agree with u to an extent,

to supercharge a magn is 7 grand gets about 160-180 atws from a stock manual yeah?

spend that on a complete NA set up and u maybe have more power depending on how agressive u go with cams and headwork.

only bad thing is with NA when u chase big power is u put all that power into a certain part of ur rev range and take it out of another, so it would not be the most day to day friendly car but still be damn fun.

personally i love NA regardless if its a 1.6 4cyl with crazy cams or a worked v8 .

answer to ur question u can get good power NA cams, headwork, inelt manifold, hi comp pistons, tune etc however the closer u get to 200 kw's atws when ur NA the harder it is to gain any more power without big cash

i also think ull ge alot more respect having a hi powered NA.
if u ran a skyline at the drags and beat it made a 13 second pass the guy would be like oh pfft thats what happend when u turbo a 3.5L.... its just expected.... but having an NA doing that .. well that will impress... well it impress;s me more atleast lol

I STRONGLY agree...never the less i think anyting much more that 210kw at the wheels in front wheel drive is a waste of time for street use inless u enjoy buying tyers. I also have a high amount of resptecpa (ali g movie) for hi powered na cars. u get alot more satisfaction out of handing a turbo cars ass to them on a plate lol

Don't get me wrong i love a boosted car just as much as anyone, but ya should work on perfecting what you have before you tackle anything like that. And if you dont have yet feel enough power at your feet then you should look at turbo/charger.

Well I hope you have plenty of cash to spend. Most people don't, so pushing the envelope of NA power, and then undoing most of that work to go forced induction isn't an option. It wasn't an option for me anyway. I had to weigh up which path was going to be more rewarding for me in the long run and at the end of the day it was 2x turbos.

I'm the first to admit that the power I'm making vs. the money I've spent isn't all that impressive, but it has given me the base to make a hell of alot more power when I get around to finishing the car off. Sure I might be making an extra 50hp now if I'd done the full NA build up, but I'd be at the limits of what is possible with an NA tune. I believe that an extra 50hp is achieveable with my current setup without opening the engine, and another 70-80hp on top of that with a rebuild to handle another 1/2 atmosphere of boost.

One other point I'd like to make - I'd be very surprised to see you reach 200kw at the wheels with only bolt ons and an ECU. You will need to open the engine to get 200kW NA out of a magna engine, and it will not be a very friendly car to drive.

its called full jap tune me mates dad took his gtr to get jap tuned from stock and opned up about 40kws from an aftermarket ecu, and also anything over 200kw in a frontwheel drive it pointless in street cars so id rather reach my limit with the cars power rather that bolting on a turbo...more satisfaction but i can see where ure coming from turbos are pretty nice, its just i wouldnt bother unless i was making better power. I probably wouldnt even do that because ive built my car for the hills and adding boost into the mixture will make it alot less safer and affect me handeling. that why i went na alot better response. if i can get the same power out of the engine as a turbo can i will have far better response and a better power band (with the correct tuning)

and i would like to kno how the car wont be n e good to drive apart from fuel:cry:

Umm... Sorry mate, but a "full jap tune" on a Magna isn't gonna do squat. I had Bob Romano tune my Ralliart after extractors/exhaust/CAI and gained about 30HP ATW. A skyline is a different story because they're so restricted from the factory it's very easy to open them up. Much like EVOs which can gain up to 50kW from just an exhaust/intake and EBC. The thing with a hi-po NA engine is the cam profile will only allow bulk power & torque from about 4k rpms and up, whereas a setup like BB's will be making peak torque around 2500-3000, and should be making a lot more torque too. You put a NA car with the same power as BB's on a roll from 80-200 and I think I know which will win. I'm not shooting you down or anything mate, I just think you're a bit lost thinking a "full jap tune" will net you massive gains.

Umm... Sorry mate, but a "full jap tune" on a Magna isn't gonna do squat. I had Bob Romano tune my Ralliart after extractors/exhaust/CAI and gained about 30HP ATW. A skyline is a different story because they're so restricted from the factory it's very easy to open them up. Much like EVOs which can gain up to 50kW from just an exhaust/intake and EBC. The thing with a hi-po NA engine is the cam profile will only allow bulk power & torque from about 4k rpms and up, whereas a setup like BB's will be making peak torque around 2500-3000, and should be making a lot more torque too. You put a NA car with the same power as BB's on a roll from 80-200 and I think I know which will win. I'm not shooting you down or anything mate, I just think you're a bit lost thinking a "full jap tune" will net you massive gains.

What he said, unless your pumping in some NOS.lol

and also anything over 200kw in a frontwheel drive it pointless in street cars
This bit got me too. What are you basing this on? I suppose all the americans with hi-po civics, srt-4's, eclipses etc running 12's and lower are pointless? :nuts:

its called full jap tune me mates dad took his gtr to get jap tuned from stock and opned up about 40kws from an aftermarket ecu, and also anything over 200kw in a frontwheel drive it pointless in street cars

Arrrghh! I hate it when people say that without knowledge or experience of owning or driving a 200kW+ FWD car.. :tantrum: and I'm sure you're only talking about 200kW at the flywheel too.

I've been driving an N/A magna with 200kW at the wheels for 12 months now and let me tell you it's just fine. :P

I haven't seen torque mentioned yet. (edit: besides Disciple post :P)

As we know an engine produces power by filling it's cylinders with an air/fuel mixture witch it then ignites. This is where forced induction has an advantage. It allowes us to 'force' more of this air/fuel mixture into the cylinders (increasing the virtual displacement), and therefore produce a bigger bang (the ability to do work) for each power stroke.

Since we can't force anymore air/fuel mixture above atmospheric pressure in an NA car, we have less of a bang for each stroke (the ability to do work). So to make more power (the rate at with you can do this work) we need to increase the revs it can produce.

I haven't seen torque mentioned yet.

The thing with a hi-po NA engine is the cam profile will only allow bulk power & torque from about 4k rpms and up, whereas a setup like BB's will be making peak torque around 2500-3000, and should be making a lot more torque too. You put a NA car with the same power as BB's on a roll from 80-200 and I think I know which will win.

lol :P

lol :P

Fixed first post lol

Umm... Sorry mate, but a "full jap tune" on a Magna isn't gonna do squat. I had Bob Romano tune my Ralliart after extractors/exhaust/CAI and gained about 30HP ATW. A skyline is a different story because they're so restricted from the factory it's very easy to open them up. Much like EVOs which can gain up to 50kW from just an exhaust/intake and EBC. The thing with a hi-po NA engine is the cam profile will only allow bulk power & torque from about 4k rpms and up, whereas a setup like BB's will be making peak torque around 2500-3000, and should be making a lot more torque too. You put a NA car with the same power as BB's on a roll from 80-200 and I think I know which will win. I'm not shooting you down or anything mate, I just think you're a bit lost thinking a "full jap tune" will net you massive gains.

:stoopid: i have to agree cos you have to bear in mind before Disciple did these mods to the car he already had around 40hpatw over yours stock......so if you wanna get close to that two hunded mark it's time to open the engine and open your wallet

:stoopid: i have to agree cos you have to bear in mind before Disciple did these mods to the car he already had around 40hpatw over yours stock......so if you wanna get close to that two hunded mark it's time to open the engine and open your wallet
I think you mean BB? :nuts: At the dyno day last year mine had extractors/zorst but was untuned and put out 16HP ATW more than ricks Ralliart. After the tune it was putting out 30HP more ATW but it is a different dyno/day/conditions etc so take that result with a grain of salt. It will be interesting to see on Saturday what mine puts out compared to others.

I think you mean BB? :nuts: At the dybo day last year mine had extractors/zorst but was untuned and put out 16HP ATW more than ricks Ralliart. After the tune it was putting out 30HP more ATW but it is a different dyno/day/conditions etc so take that result with a grain of salt. It will be interesting to see on Saturday what mine puts out compared to others.


no I meant yours is about 180kw at the fly and his is 140 at the fly (supposed factory figures) they are just ballpark figure for what the guy has to deal with. That figure at last years dyno day was around 186hpatw. So just goes to show how dynos can differ.And yeh looking forward to Saturday

no I meant yours is about 180kw at the fly and his is 140 at the fly (supposed factory figures) they are just ballpark figure for what the guy has to deal with. And yeh looking forward to Saturday
Oh cause you said "40hpatw" :nuts: N/m.

Don't forgot that if your going to do all this look into getting the block bored a bit to get a bit more displacement from the stock engine (theres no replacement for displacement)
I would be going down the N/A Path first, doing all your headwork, exhaust, intake mods etc first.
becuase then if your even thirstier for more power you can always go down the Forced induction path, getting the absolutle most from what your engine has to offer.

Oh cause you said "40hpatw" :nuts: N/m.


:nuts: you love these hey...Isn't a ball park figure for what you have at the fly in KW is approx H.P at the wheels.....Yours last year with minor mods 138kwatw = 186HPATW. Yours factory at the fly 180KW.

:nuts: you love these hey...Isn't a ball park figure for what you have at the fly in KW is approx H.P at the wheels.....Yours last year with minor mods 138kwatw = 186HPATW. Yours factory at the fly 180KW.
In a way, but depends on so many factors. Look @ Ricks - 170hpatw, stock = 180kW. One of the VR TL boys made 171hpatw I think, stock = 163kW. It's a round-a-bout figure but can be out +-10-15hpatw.

what you have at the fly in KW is approx H.P at the wheels.

Agreed

and i would like to kno how the car wont be n e good to drive apart from fuel:cry:

For starters, please don't mis-quote me. I did not say the car "wont be n e good to drive". I said it will not be "friendly" to drive. I say this because to make 200kW (assuming "at the wheels" because thats what I was referring to in my original comment), you will need to replace your nice "daily driver" friendly factory cams with some cams which will shift the power alot higher in the rev range, at the cost of low down power and idle "smoothness". Also, the ECU's you mentioned in your first post are all of the "full replacement" variety, which means you will lose some of the "nice" factory features of the standard computer like cold start idle control, cruise control, and potentially the use of your factory tacho.

I can jump in my car first thing in the morning, start it, let the clutch out and creep up my steep driveway holding about 800rpm in 1st, all in the space of 20-30 seconds without an issue. You ask Chthulhu or Ego how long they have to wait before they can drive their cars 1st thing in the mornings.

In addition to that...... when you start making 200 odd kW in your magna, you are going to find things like your clutch, and possibly your diff don't like it. If this is the case - it is probably safe to say that you might end up replacing them with "heavy duty" aftermarket items which will perform better at high load/rpm. Said items don't behave very well at low load/rpm. I'll be the first to tell you that my car is abit "grumpy" to drive and it is solely because of the clutch and LSD I am running.

In addition to that...... when you start making 200 odd kW in your magna, you are going to find things like your clutch, and possibly your diff don't like it. If this is the case - it is probably safe to say that you might end up replacing them with "heavy duty" aftermarket items which will perform better at high load/rpm. Said items don't behave very well at low load/rpm. I'll be the first to tell you that my car is abit "grumpy" to drive and it is solely because of the clutch and LSD I am running.

Yepo, I reckon same goes for any hight output NA engine, really. You cant make usable power down low, it seems.

The Windsor we've got inside a ute now (project between me and a mate), measures around a 4.5 on the richter scale when it idles, first turn of the key (if inded, it idles for very long at all... thanks to 'crazy cams' as some people like to call em). It gets a little better after a few minutes... but it pretty much sounds like the timings out (note... its not!) til about 3500rpm. From then on up til about 6500rpm, its the scariest thing I've ever driven.

EDIT: I also agree with the diff and clutch... and even the gearbox! Ever tried to learn how to use a quickshift with a button clutch?!

it is not a difficult thing driving a 200kw atm FWD at all, its all about how your drive it. there are cars RWD and AWD with double that power on the street that could get themselves into more trouble than something like mine.
in my short time at this power figure i've come to the conclusion that this was the best way to get performance out of my car. I too wanted a hi power N/A car but also wanted something to get to and from work, to the shops and back, general daily driving and a race car all in one and forced induction (in my case a sprintex S/C) delivers this without fail. i got 50kw at the wheels from the initial S/C, and an estimated 30-40kw more will be achieveable with stand alone ecu, water injection and bigger injectors and still be as streetable as the day it rolled off the production line.

i didnt mean 200kw is the cut off point im talking about 220 230kws over. and i have driven a 200kw+ car it was about 225kw integra (at the wheel power...always at the wheel and none of this horsepower rubbish) and it was not very good.

and also anything over 200kw in a frontwheel drive it pointless in street cars


didnt mean 200kw is the cut off point im talking about 220 230kws over

Sorry, everyone must've misread something, somewhere.

Booya's 300kw Magna was pretty streetable wasn't it? I've heard Mitisman's twin turbo'd beastie is used as a daily driver still (it ran an 11 on slicks, I think?).

There's some cool clips of Mitsiman's around on youtube somewhere I think of in-car footage. :drool:

i dont really want my car to have as much power as poss, i just want it to be responsive and handle like a mo-fo because i live in sa i have some of australias most challenging twisties right at my back door and not a decent drag strip 4 miles. and just 4 da record im not really taking sides (although it did sound like it) i just strongly belive in tuning b4 bolting

i knew a guy in high skl and he was the biggest commodore wanker you could ever imagine and just recently i was out on a night run and i saw him following me in a wrx 99 and i had a chat with him and the rex was pushing 300kws and all 4's due to a garret gt45 install and i asked what else he has done and he looked at me like like as if to be thinking ......what else could u do:nuts: that sed he took off and let flw with a monsterous display of commodoreism and blew the stuff inside a gearbox to geartooth soup i had abit of a chuckle and yeah....swore that day i'd never b a bolt-onerer with out extensive work lol


THE END...haha:nuts:

i have no problems with spending money but not as much as ya do on a turbo for the resutls ya get, boingflip block

i have no problems with spending money but not as much as ya do on a turbo for the resutls ya get, boingflip block

So you wanna spend half the money and get the same result?

I'm pretty sure we all do mate. Let us know when you figure out how.

:bowrofl:

i have no problems with spending money but not as much as ya do on a turbo for the resutls ya get, boingflip block
I spose $15k or so to run 12's or 11's seems unreasonable... lol. What is a "boingflip block"? Is that a new band?

its from scrubbs its a little gay childish thing......and there the hell did u pull 15g's from just a slight exsguration

its from scrubbs its a little gay childish thing......and there the hell did u pull 15g's from just a slight exsguration

Let me guess...... you think you can crack 200kW for <$5000??

its from scrubbs its a little gay childish thing......and there the hell did u pull 15g's from just a slight exsguration


Mate how much do you think it actually costs to get massive power gains?

And dont forget mate we are talking magnas here not skylines.

Let me guess...... you think you can crack 200kW for <$5000??
Don't talk rubbish Mike... My mate and I are gonna install a turbo ourselves, should only cost $5000 for parts and do all the work ourselves... easy mate. ;)

couldnt b that hard my dad is a mechanical engineer for mitsubishi and worked at the tonsley park site for 16 years and had designed alot of engine components and steering **** for the magna so with his knowlage and one of my best m8's dads who was the engine block assembly line manager who races magnas and put the whole running gear of a vrx magna in his own tube frame AND designes his own cam gears and cam shafts it aint going to cost me as much as you think it will and as for tuning i kno some people down at tillbrooke performance there are some great advtages of having a very small car scene in sa you get to kno alot of people... boingflip block

Don't talk rubbish Mike... My mate and I are gonna install a turbo ourselves, should only cost $5000 for parts and do all the work ourselves... easy mate. ;)

I'm sorry, what was I thinking? for a second there, I forgot that everyone on AMC has a dad who designed the magna, and has a workshop in their back yard, and has 47 million best mates, all of who just happen to work in the performance car industry, but they don't actually work for money - they just do jobs for all their friends for free. And all your uncle's own ebay so you can get all the top chinese turbo brands for like cost less 100%.

And since we're all full of ****........ I just got off the phone with Jessica Alba, she wants me to father her children :nuts:

you dont have a microtech ecu...

i have one on order and they are having trouble programing it as they have never done a magna before!

well not alot is planned yet as far as the cam shaft lobe dimenstins as with cams , he has never made them 4 a 3ltr
and im hopefully getting, (i alredy have ralliart exctactors) exhaust, hi-flowed throttle body, microtec ecu, k&n pod, cam shaft, cam gears, exedy twin plate,tuned, 800cc hks injectors on a custom fuel rail, sard fuel pump, and that about it for the moment and i kno what it wont make 200 kws thats just im aiming for

Why do u want to use 800cc injectors?

My old NA 3.5L motor i built made over 240Kw's@wheels with only 360cc injectors

Oh and please name some of the people you "know" cos i worked for MMAL for 10years and the last few years were in R&D at tonsley park plant.

PM me if ya dont want to list them on here

well my dads name is jeffery stone and me and my family went to america with wayne phillips and will vanderwurfs families along with jason fry. my friends dad that is the engine block assembly managers name is graham van der hoek also my cuz sam borrich started just as my dad left

hi system6,

just letting you know when people mature they get sick of **** easy, in all your responses and attempts to make come backs you have successfully made yourself out to be a bit immature and a dreamer.

These people have experienced what modifications as extensive as yours cost and also have also done a few of their own, therefore they understand the amount of help your assuming you'll get no worries.

Personally i'd be finding the stock grind out for the camshaft and then talking to whomever will be regrinding or grinding your next set. They'd obviously have alot more experience and knowledge than pretty much the rest of us.

I'd also make sure you go a MAFless tune and drop a pod, also i'd worry about the strength of the associated pieces to what you'll "be" installing ie valve springs...

You have a lot more research to do.

Don't worry also i believe if i posted up a thread about how im going to twin turbo or rebuild my engine and nothing else; i think i'd get shut down on here too.

Keen for the dyno day this sat lads,

Peace to my homies
im a nice guy

I can jump in my car first thing in the morning, start it, let the clutch out and creep up my steep driveway holding about 800rpm in 1st, all in the space of 20-30 seconds without an issue. You ask Chthulhu or Ego how long they have to wait before they can drive their cars 1st thing in the mornings.

I fire mine up in the mornings and its ready to go.. but i give it about a minute before i go zoomin off..:)

We should start charging for this kindergarten.

/thread

System6 enjoy your 1 day holiday... Anymore of tonights rubbish will see you in the permaban bin