hi guys i was told if i do particular mods i would get a 20-22kw gain at the wheels, how many kw would this be at the flywheel???? please help me.

what mods would that be, cos nothing short of opening the engine will give you that gain...

lets say 25kw at the engine, but there are too many variables and there is no way to tell engine power short of removing the motor and putting it on an engine dyno

manual conversion, short shifter kit, sard FPR kit, Hi Flow TB, Haltech piggy back. RPW stated around 20-22kw at the wheels

Most FWD autos lose about 15%; work backwards from there, and you're looking at about 25kW. From TJII onwards that's into Ralliart territory, so you're talking big bucks to get there.

EDIT: Personally I think 25kW is a big call from a manual, pressure reg, throttle body and ECU, although RPW are usually quite thorough.

Andrewd is right though, unless you know exactly how much power and torque the drivetrain is losing, you'll never know power at the flywheel unless you pull the engine out.

Most FWD autos lose about 15%; work backwards from there, and you're looking at about 25kW. From TJII onwards that's into Ralliart territory, so you're talking big bucks to get there.
what would the drive train loss be for a FWD Manual....about 10% yeah?

manual conversion, short shifter kit, sard FPR kit, Hi Flow TB, Haltech piggy back. RPW stated around 20-22kw at the wheels

If all you are interested in is the peak power increase, you will get the same result without the short shifter, FPR, and Hi Flow T/B, as none of those things will make any difference to your power output.

Manual conversion is where the money is at, and some members have reported gains of up to 12kW at the wheels from a piggyback ECU / tune on cars with existing "breathing mods".

what would the drive train loss be for a FWD Manual....about 10% yeah?

I'd say it'd be somewhere around there, as there's no slip from a torque convertor, ie. engaged clutch vs. slipping torque convertor, and you're not losing power running a dirty great hydraulic pump.

its not just peak power its also the take of speed(1/4 mile speed) as an example. ideas??? if these mods dont do much what can u suggest i do

A manual box and an ECU will see the biggest improvements. From there it's heads, cams, displacement, compression, nitrous, forced induction... The old adage: "Power costs, how fast do you want to go?"

as a general rule of thumb, you lose approx 30% power from flywheel to wheels.

basically ur saying save money on FPR, TB

as a general rule of thumb, you lose approx 30% power from flywheel to wheels.
humm....:think: ...maybe if u drive a 1960's tractor

humm....:think: ...maybe if u drive a 1960's tractor

RWD autos lose about 17%, depending on diff and other fun parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear-wheel_drive

basically ur saying save money on FPR, TB

No, I didn't say that - I said they will not contribute to any incease in peak power output. Reasons being;

The Throttle body is no bigger in diameter than the factory fitted T/B (infact it is basically a factory fitted T/B that has had the "steps" before and after the butterfly smoothed out). Basically it doesn't let any more air pass thru at full throttle, but allows marginally more air to flow thru at anywhere up to about 40% throttle. Some members have them and swear by them, others believe they aren't worthwhile.

The FPR also wont make any difference to peak power, as the ECU is still regulating how much fuel is being delivered, regardless of the pressure in the fuel rails. The idea behind these (and I'm not 100% clear on this myself) is that they improve throttle response by having more fuel in reserve for when you apply the throttle quickly (going from cruising to overtaking for example). I personally installed a rising rate FPR to my car when the only other mods were a CAI, exhaust and to me it felt like it made a reasonable difference to the responsiveness of the car. Again this is another mod that has many members divided about wether they are worthwhile or not.

well read the latest motor magazine an XR6T makes 195kwatw and 245kw as advertised at the engine...

and the awd magna 150kw at the engine and approx 105kw atw

163kw 5spd tippy verada 116kw atw


fpr?? man i dont even have one of those... kinda like pod filters and stickers man lol

so getting these mods, with my K & N filter, and my panel filter, hi flow cat, and straight through muffler, what could i possibly be looking at. sounds like not all mods will help with peek power but will help with acceleration which is great.

RWD autos lose about 17%, depending on diff and other fun parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear-wheel_drive
yer but 17 aint 30 lol

yer but 17 aint 30 lol

I've seen the ~30% figure passed around before, mostly in Commodore circles lol

humm....:think: ...maybe if u drive a 1960's tractor

hence the reason TR's are getting 77kw ATW (4cyl)

*edit*- from what i'm hearing and understanding from friends in the know

well read the latest motor magazine an XR6T makes 195kwatw and 245kw as advertised at the engine...

and the awd magna 150kw at the engine and approx 105kw atw

163kw 5spd tippy verada 116kw atw


fpr?? man i dont even have one of those... kinda like pod filters and stickers man lol
some of those numbers they got in the mag seemed a bit ****. the GTS made what around 250rwkws if i remember right and has what like 305kws thats a fair loss. dad last car made 226rwkws and had 255 at the fly which was rather good.

anyway back to the magna best way to see what getting rid of that sheila shifter is see the times for standard auto - man the auto is a fair bit slower. so manual in and you are already faster. nice then bring on the mods from there.

what would the drive train loss be for a FWD Manual....about 10% yeah?

Dreaming.

A stock TJ or later manual FWD vrx/sport with 163kw seems to generally get 125-130kw ATW, depending on the dyno. So thats a 20-25% loss. Auto is around 30-35% loss it seems.

The reason why figures differ is every car is different, and every dyno is different. E.g some dynos give unrealistically high readings, meaning the drivetrain loss calculated is unrealistically low.

IMO as a rough guide for average drivetrain loss in manual cars:

FWD - 20%
RWD - 25%
AWD - 30%

Autos seem to add another variation; stall convertor speed. The higher the stall, the higher the loss shown on a dyno. As a rough rule of thumb, add 10% for an auto.

I've noticed there's alot of BS on the commodore scene, where guys are commonly claiming drivetrain loss of 15-17%, sometimes even from autos. This is complete bull****. Stick such a car on a realistic dyno, and you'll see the figures are way off. Unless you're underestimating flywheel kw, in case its very easy to convince yourself of lower drivetrain loss.

Dreaming.

A stock TJ or later manual FWD vrx/sport with 163kw seems to generally get 125-130kw ATW, depending on the dyno. So thats a 20-25% loss. Auto is around 30-35% loss it seems.

The reason why figures differ is every car is different, and every dyno is different. E.g some dynos give unrealistically high readings, meaning the drivetrain loss calculated is unrealistically low.

IMO as a rough guide for average drivetrain loss in manual cars:

FWD - 20%
RWD - 25%
AWD - 30%

Autos seem to add another variation; stall convertor speed. The higher the stall, the higher the loss shown on a dyno. As a rough rule of thumb, add 10% for an auto.

I've noticed there's alot of BS on the commodore scene, where guys are commonly claiming drivetrain loss of 15-17%, sometimes even from autos. This is complete bull****. Stick such a car on a realistic dyno, and you'll see the figures are way off. Unless you're underestimating flywheel kw, in case its very easy to convince yourself of lower drivetrain loss.

Excellent post. :clap:

Dreaming.

A stock TJ or later manual FWD vrx/sport with 163kw seems to generally get 125-130kw ATW, depending on the dyno. So thats a 20-25% loss. Auto is around 30-35% loss it seems.

The reason why figures differ is every car is different, and every dyno is different. E.g some dynos give unrealistically high readings, meaning the drivetrain loss calculated is unrealistically low.

IMO as a rough guide for average drivetrain loss in manual cars:

FWD - 20%
RWD - 25%
AWD - 30%

Autos seem to add another variation; stall convertor speed. The higher the stall, the higher the loss shown on a dyno. As a rough rule of thumb, add 10% for an auto.

I've noticed there's alot of BS on the commodore scene, where guys are commonly claiming drivetrain loss of 15-17%, sometimes even from autos. This is complete bull****. Stick such a car on a realistic dyno, and you'll see the figures are way off. Unless you're underestimating flywheel kw, in case its very easy to convince yourself of lower drivetrain loss.

thanks mate, thats awsome.

i dont know if this is possible, but with pacemaker extractors, hi flow cat, straight through muffler, K & N filter, Manual conversion, Haltech piggy back, hi flow TB, short shifter kit, Sard FPR, what type of kw am i looking at???? yes i know some of these mods dont help overall kw, but they help me acceleration, so dont attack me about that, if this is not possible to guess, tell me.lol

thanks mate, thats awsome.

i dont know if this is possible, but with pacemaker extractors, hi flow cat, straight through muffler, K & N filter, Manual conversion, Haltech piggy back, hi flow TB, short shifter kit, Sard FPR, what type of kw am i looking at???? yes i know some of these mods dont help overall kw, but they help me acceleration, so dont attack me about that, if this is not possible to guess, tell me.lol

It's pretty much impossible to guess, but with very similar mods on my car I literally put out 133 and 141kW at the wheels on different dynos, within about 2 months of each other.

Yeah, I agree with black beard...

around 135kw's considering you have a TH not a TJ series two...(Different cams)

Got a reply from RPW, they said it will be about 180KW at the fly wheel, and im guessing about 130KW at the wheels, does this sound right?

Got a reply from RPW, they said it will be about 180KW at the fly wheel, and im guessing about 130KW at the wheels, does this sound right?

Yeah..around 130kw @ the wheels sounds pritty accurate... :D

If ya dont mind me asking, how much did that all set you back?

ummm its all through RPW, and i havent got all the gear yet, iv just been asking for prices, time to install, tuning etc...so iv gotta save up but its going to be about 5 1/2 G in the end, istalling at the end of the year or beginging of next year.

ummm its all through RPW, and i havent got all the gear yet, iv just been asking for prices, time to install, tuning etc...so iv gotta save up but its going to be about 5 1/2 G in the end, istalling at the end of the year or beginging of next year.

:redface: been there, done that......... if you are seriously interested in having a quick magna, can I suggest putting that money towards a TT or SC setup??

Much cheaper in the long run, and if you're anything like I was - 130-140kW at the wheels isn't anywhere near enough.

$5.5k?! For what exactly? Sounds a lil' exy? Or is it just me?

$5.5k?! For what exactly? Sounds a lil' exy? Or is it just me?

Don't forget a manual converstion aint cheap.

OP: IMO its better to do things slowly, rather than doing everything at once, That way you get to savour each mod you do, and gauge the difference it makes, rather than banging everything in at once.

IMO if you're going a high-flow cat and headers, you might as well get the exhaust piping changed to 2.5". It pays not to skimp on the cat, get a 3" metal-cored cat. Make sure it's a metal-cored cat, the cheaper aftermarket ceramic ones often don't flow much better than a factory catm, sometimes even worse.

The stock system on the 3.5L is really a 2.1/4 system, as the flex-pipe, bends and centre muffler inlet are 2 1/4 inch.

Also with extractors, IMO you really need a new dump/flex pipe section to go with them, rather than just tacking the pacies onto the factory dump/flex pipe. This is why I went with RPW "race" headers, as they include a 2.5" dump/flex pipe section, so the price difference is much lower, once you factor in the cost of getting your exhaust shock to make you a dump/flex pipe, and it probably won't be as good, unless you have a really good exhaust place.

So you rekon if i do the manual conversion, then do the rest of the mods or what process would you do.

So you rekon if i do the manual conversion, then do the rest of the mods or what process would you do.
Do the manual conversion first and see how the car feels for you. If you still want more speed after that then look at cams etc or forced induction of some kind. Mucking around with fpr, throttle bodies etc will be a waste of time IMO if you're looking for outright power.

the exhaust system has already been done!!! thanx for your opinion anyway.its time for the expensive stuff now. this is why im asking for your opinions, which are great to read.

Manual conversion friend. Don't waste time with fpr n stuff man. Go straight to cams or forced induction.

Manual conversion friend. Don't waste time with fpr n stuff man. Go straight to cams or forced induction.

Agreed.

IMO engine mod path for n/a should be:


"stage1" - This is where most people will stop, as spending large amounts of money on a magna for relatively small gains is getting silly.

- Full 2.5" exhaust including headers and CAT
- DIY CAI, perhaps k&n panel
- tuned piggback if you're gonna finish up here.

"stage 2" - Getting expensive, but not outrageously so if you're keen. This is where I intend to stop.

- "Mild cams" like rpw stage1 or similar with adjustable cam gears
- Modified plenum, e.g EZboy or RPW. Never seen a dynograph of the gains, so I'm not sure about this. But users who get them seem happy.
- tuned piggyback

More hardcore version of "stage 2":

- more agressive cams, rpw stage2 or similar
- Ported and polished heads - now becomes a heads-off job.
- Tougher valve springs
- Higher CR pistons, minimum 10:1

Extreme n/a build:

- Wild cam, i.e rpw stage4+ or similar
- Full replacement ECU - piggyback no longer up to the task
- Most likely highly modified intake requied, plenum with larger single or multiple throttle bodies, ditch the factory AFM
- Full 3" exhaust
-Probably need changes to fueling system - e.g larger injectors and fuel pump

ok, so if i get a manual conversion (Short shifter), haltech piggy back, stage 1 RPW cams, and an RPW plenum. obviously this will take me a long time, but manual and haltech will come first. is this better than my previous plan????

I think You're gonna find the manual converstion will keep you satsified for a while. There's no rush to do mods, you might as well do them slowly and savour each improvement. But really, just do what makes you happy.

Personally, I suggest:

1. Do the converstion, with no other mods. It'll be a massive improvement, enjoy.

2. When eventually you start getting bored, start doing some of the cheaper mods to keep amused. E.g a DIY CAI and shortshifter.

3. When you're after a bit more go, perhaps the plenum

4. When the itch to mod comes back, maybe then go all the way with cams, cam gears and piggback. Doing all this one go is very expensive though, you can probably break it up.

Say just get the piggyback, install and tune. When you're bored again, maybe finish it off with the cams, cam gears and a retune.

Don't forget there's plenty of performance mods besides the engine, i.e get your suspension/chassis sorted. An LSD is great too, especially if you end up deciding to do trackdays, and get hooked.

IMO you shouldn't try to plan out when you're gonna do your mods in advance, just go with the flow, do them gradually so you can enjoy/appreciate them fully. If you rush your mods, not only do you miss out on savouring them, but you're gonna be spending much more money quickly.

Think about it, say if you did ALL your planned mods together, right now. In 6 months time you'll probably get bored of your car, and then wanto spend even more money, on more extreme mods or a another car. Do them gradually, and it'll take you much longer, meaning you're spending your money much slower, and probably getting much more satisfaction per $$$.

ok thanx mate, you have been more than helpful and this isnt the first time you have helped me out, thanks for the tips, and dont worry i will take my time, it will be about 6-7 months b4 i get the manual and piggy back installed, then i might improve the looks of the car for a while, then if i want more performance go for the other engine upgrades. i think your right as well, i might go looking at a few other upgrades to help with steering and acceleration (LSD).

ok thanx mate, you have been more than helpful and this isnt the first time you have helped me out, thanks for the tips, and dont worry i will take my time, it will be about 6-7 months b4 i get the manual and piggy back installed, then i might improve the looks of the car for a while, then if i want more performance go for the other engine upgrades. i think your right as well, i might go looking at a few other upgrades to help with steering and acceleration (LSD).

If your planning on fitting an LSD, do it at the same time as the manual conversion to save on labour, as the box will already be out of the car.

ok thanx mate, you have been more than helpful and this isnt the first time you have helped me out, thanks for the tips, and dont worry i will take my time, it will be about 6-7 months b4 i get the manual and piggy back installed, then i might improve the looks of the car for a while, then if i want more performance go for the other engine upgrades. i think your right as well, i might go looking at a few other upgrades to help with steering and acceleration (LSD).
Don't forget Stopping Power!!!

You might be accelerating and handling very well but if you can't brake in time thats not good.

May I suggest Slotted Rotors and Bendix Ultimate Pads All round to add to your list.

here is the plan:

Stage 1 - Manual Conversion/Haltech Piggy Back

Stage 2 - Braking equipment/Steering equipment

Stage 3 - Intake Plenum

This is where i might stop, but if i have the erg to go on, i will get a intake plenum or stage 1 cams.

If something isnt right or you believe i should do different let me kno.

Thankyou for all your help and passing your knowledge onto my young brain, ahahaha.

In between all these mods there will be visual upgrades, to keep me happy in that dpeartment.

here is the plan:

Stage 1 - Manual Conversion/Haltech Piggy Back

Stage 2 - Braking equipment/Steering equipment

Stage 3 - Intake Plenum

This is where i might stop, but if i have the erg to go on, i will get a intake plenum or stage 1 cams.

If something isnt right or you believe i should do different let me kno.

Thankyou for all your help and passing your knowledge onto my young brain, ahahaha.

In between all these mods there will be visual upgrades, to keep me happy in that dpeartment.

Looks like a good plan, but if you are going to be installing a Plenum or Cams for that matter, you could save yourself about $300-$400 on re-tuning on the Haltek by installing it last and tunning with everything already on the car.

these stages will be ages apart, like some of the members previously sed, take my time, which i am going to do, so plenum/cams may be a LOOOOONG way away.

these stages will be ages apart, like some of the members previously sed, take my time, which i am going to do, so plenum/cams may be a LOOOOONG way away.

Fair enough, maybe look around for 2nd hand piggyback units (Haltech, GReddy E-Manage, Unichip etc..) Could save your self a bit if money :).

Lenda: looks like a reasonable plan, remember there's no need to stick to an exact plan, just go along with what you feel doing at any given time. E.g after you do the converstion you may be satsified, and lose interest in modding it any further. Or you may become an insatiable mod-fiend :redface: Also it's hard to predict what your modding budget will be like in the future, don't let your car mods dictate your finanical future.

If you're gonna go with an LSD, it does make alot of sense to do it at the same time as the converstion, rather than spending $400+ on labour later, if you wanto install one. It really depends what you wanto do with your car. IMO if you're just gonna drive around the street and give it a squirt, then a LSD is a large unnecessary expense.

However if you end up going to the track and getting hooked like I have, an LSD really is a must once you start getting serious, you certainly don't need one to have fun however. It just so happens that my clutch is likely to need doing soon, so I intend to get the clutch and LSD done at the same time, which will be a big saving on labour.