Hi all,

TR, 4 cyl EFI, auto

can anyone tell me the effects of a wrong set timing between crank and cam? I believe the timing on my cam or crank is 1 tooth out.
Car drives smoothly but has a quiet and consistant pinging noise all the time. I had the car serviced and the ignition timing and knock sensor checked, everything is ok.

I'm guessing, if the timing is 1 tooth out, the knock sensor and ECU can't compensate that much anymore.

If someone can confirm my guess ... or point me in the right direction, i would appreciate it.

Thanx
Jos

Im not a mechanic but it will have NO power above around 2000ish rpm and just struggle to get any further up from that, and will also make the horrible pinging sound...
Take it back ASAP and get it fixed!

']it will have NO power above around 2000ish rpm and just struggle to get any further up from that

This is normal for the 2.6L engine lol

This is normal for the 2.6L engine lol
:stoopid: Agreed.

This is normal for the 2.6L engine lol

lol wont argue with you on that one :P

You guys are a lotta help.:P :)

How much do you know about mechanical stuff?

If you can, wind the engine over (with ign OFF) using a socket on the end of the crank pulley till the timing mark is at TDC

Take off the rocker cover (easy task) and check the cam gear.
The cam gear dowel pin should be at the 12 oclock position exactly. (there should also be a small drilled mark at the 3 oclock position.

If its out a little you have a problem.

If its at the bottom, wind the engine 1 full turn till the timing mark comes back to the TDC point and check again.

You should need no parts for this check and it wont take too long.

Yell if you need more help. :D

Hi all,
i do agree ... some certain things are normal on a "Magna", makes me relaxed to know ... you have the same problems.

Thanks for this great explaination Ol'Fart, it will help me a lot to check if the timing is ok. I just changed a couple of days ago the rocker cover seal, it's pretty easy to do.

As for the tensioner (in case it needs to be adjusted) i don't want to buy this special tool to release the pressure on the tensioner, can i use a 5mm steel rod or similar? Any ideas?

Thanks
Jos

Have you downloaded the manual off here yet?:)

http://www.lisho.net/?page_id=3

Have you downloaded the manual off here yet?:)

http://www.lisho.net/?page_id=3


yes, i got the manual, it only shows the "special tool". I thought i can save the money for this tool.
Anyway, i will try tomorrow to check the timing ... will keep you informed.
Thanks for the help.
Jos

The reason I asked was so that I could see what special tool you were talking about.

If your taking aout the one you shove down from the top to release the tensioner then yeah,
You can use a torch and a rod or a long thin screwdriver or whatever to press down the tensioner release.
It only needs to go down a cm or so to release.:D

when my dad and I were doing this, we used the arm thingo off a bucket (it was lying around at the time).

just straighten it out as much as possible, ta-dahh...there ya go...

as far as i know, one tooth backwards and it doesn't start, one tooth forwards and it backfires. ..i'm no mechanic, just my understanding that's all

one tooth out it will run like a pig and have no power at all.

As for the 2.6 being gutless above 2k, this is interesting as they have been described in the past as being a high torque engine as far as 4cyl engines go

one tooth out it will run like a pig and have no power at all.

As for the 2.6 being gutless above 2k, this is interesting as they have been described in the past as being a high torque engine as far as 4cyl engines go

well...i must agree that the 4cyl motors aren't that gutless. though they arent the most performing engines on the market, they're by far not the worst. Mine's an ex-police vehicle, still to find whether it's been effed around with by them or not...*shrugs*

The 4 cyl engines aren't too bad... they may not have any fantastic jaw-dropping power, but they do get up and go alright. They are insanely torquey engines, which is obvious from how often the engine mounts tear and how much the front of the car lifts when u start accelerating. I think if you just look after the engine and keep it well maintained (which these engines thrive on), they are quite good.

The 4 cyl engines aren't too bad... they may not have any fantastic jaw-dropping power, but they do get up and go alright. They are insanely torquey engines, which is obvious from how often the engine mounts tear and how much the front of the car lifts when u start accelerating. I think if you just look after the engine and keep it well maintained (which these engines thrive on), they are quite good.
This is true, once they get the 1.5 Tonne car moving they have a bit of stick I guess... but for their displacement they are pretty pathetic, 2.6L @ 98hp (or was it kw?)... what a letdown, i'll go a CA18DE for the same power and better economy with its 1.8L engine, or even the 1.6L DOHC motor in my brother's KJ2 Laser.

Edit; I'm aware torque is measured in nm, i'm just pointing out they are hugely inefficient engines.

98kW if ya wanna be exact..hehe...nah although i wouldnt mind a V6, the 4pot can get ya by. once it gets past say, 30 or 40 kms, it gets going well enough for a what's that, 25yr old engine (going back to the astron in the sigma tritons etc.)

Hi all,
i had a look at the alignment of cam and crank ... everything seems to be aligned.
What about the hydraulic lifters? What are the signs of being "worn out" There is no knocking at cold startup.
anymore ideas?

thanx
Jos

This is true, once they get the 1.5 Tonne car moving they have a bit of stick I guess... but for their displacement they are pretty pathetic, 2.6L @ 98hp (or was it kw?)... what a letdown, i'll go a CA18DE for the same power and better economy with its 1.8L engine, or even the 1.6L DOHC motor in my brother's KJ2 Laser.

Edit; I'm aware torque is measured in nm, i'm just pointing out they are hugely inefficient engines.

No point in having that power in the smaller engines if they don't have the torque to move the car. Don't the 2.6's have over 220Nm? Thats a fair bit for an old 2.6 four banger.

98kW if ya wanna be exact..hehe...nah although i wouldnt mind a V6, the 4pot can get ya by. once it gets past say, 30 or 40 kms, it gets going well enough for a what's that, 25yr old engine (going back to the astron in the sigma tritons etc.)
Second gen magnas got a roller rocker head and EFI (TP did too..) so its current incarnation is less than 20 years old ;) Splitting hairs there I know.


No point in having that power in the smaller engines if they don't have the torque to move the car. Don't the 2.6's have over 220Nm? Thats a fair bit for an old 2.6 four banger.
2.6L Astron II has 212Nm.
CA18DE has 162Nm.

Funnily enough the astron puts out 1KW more than the CA18 as well! I guess the deciding factor there is the weight of the Magna versus the Silvia/Pulsar GTi... Don't get me started on the SR20 :P

I'd rather a 6 cylinder, the economy of the Astron is laughable when it equals that of the 6, without the power unfortunately.

Second gen magnas got a roller rocker head and EFI (TP did too..) so its current incarnation is less than 20 years old ;) Splitting hairs there I know.


2.6L Astron II has 212Nm.


I'd rather a 6 cylinder, the economy of the Astron is laughable when it equals that of the 6, without the power unfortunately.

nope tp's had soild lifters with manual tenioner.(some very late tp's got them but most tp's didn't have it) where as tr/ts had roller rockers and a auto timing chain tentioner.
isn't 212nm for the 2nd gens (from the magna encyclopedia)

plus 2.6 lL 4cly is big for it's size, not that much difference in capacity to the 3Lt so of coures it's going to burn about the same fuel plus in the heavyer 2nd gens dosen't help it.

nope tp's had soild lifters with manual tenioner.(some very late tp's got them but most tp's didn't have it) where as tr/ts had roller rockers and a auto timing chain tentioner.
isn't 212nm for the 2nd gens (from the magna encyclopedia)

plus 2.6 lL 4cly is big for it's size, not that much difference in capacity to the 3Lt so of coures it's going to burn about the same fuel plus in the heavyer 2nd gens dosen't help it.

The TP's all have HLA's with solid rockers, and as smooth2 said, they didn't have roller cams until second gen, although the cam is physically the same (although minor difference in grind), so it can be interchanged easily enough. The timing chain tensioner mechanism was introduced on TP's after around september if I remember right, on the last batch of first gens. It was a significantly flawed design though, as the ratchet design tensions the chain whenever it starts to rattle, and eventually causes damage to the chain and guides due to over-tensioning it constantly.

2.6L is indeed oversized for a car of this weight, and despite the power being fairly low output, it is mainly due to design. Increasing an engine of this size to 3.0L i would doubt would make much difference, as there are huge design flaws with these engines that significantly impede the maximum potential of the engine in the first place - mainly with regards to intake, fuel delivery and control system. Comparing to a V6 however, and similar sizes are going to have a large difference due to design alone.

Hi all,
i had a look at the alignment of cam and crank ... everything seems to be aligned.
What about the hydraulic lifters? What are the signs of being "worn out" There is no knocking at cold startup.
anymore ideas?

thanx
Jos

With regards to your question, worn out HLA's are obvious if there is significant "tapping" noises that come from the top of the engine while idling in particular. They are usually fairly loud tapping noises too, so don't mistake it for the typical chain rattle. To really check them properly though, you will need to remove the rocker assembly and check them individually. You will need a torque wrench, RTV/Permatex Black gasket-maker and a new rocker cover gasket kit for this.

To inspect HLA's:
1. Remove the ventilation lines attached to the rocker cover
2. Remove the cover over the water pump pulley and bracket holding accelerator cable onto cover
3. Remove rocker cover bolts and lift out of place
4. Rotate crankshaft clockwise to TDC by using 21mm spanner on crankshaft pulley bolt. Look for timing mark on crankshaft pulley to be at TDC and dowel hole on camshaft sprocket to be at 12 o'clock position.
5. Remove bolts from all bearing caps on camshaft, working from outside towards center, rear to front on each cap, one by one
6. Place masking tape around the end of each rocker arm to hold HLA's in place while rocker gear is removed.
7. Carefully lift the rocker assembly from the engine and place on a clean rag
8. Visually inspect the top of each valve stem and ensure that they are all shiny and smooth, with no pitting. Pitting or rough surfaces indicates lack of oil reaching the HLA's or they are significantly worn out.
9. Remove the tape from each rocker arm one by one, being careful the HLA does not fall out of the arm. Using a small block of wood, place it under the HLA in the end of the rocker arm. Push firmly down on the rocker arm and take note of the movement of the HLA. If it does not move, the tappets are worn and must be replaced. There should be about ~1mm travel. If they move significantly more than this, they must also be replaced.
10. After the above test, remove the HLA from the rocker arm, ensuring you do NOT tip it upside down and spill the oil out of it. Keep track of which rocker arm the HLA came from. Visually inspect the bottom of it without tipping it upside down, and look for a smooth, shiny surface. If it is not, the HLA must be replaced. You can get new ones for about ~$10 each. If you find one tappet worn out, it is likely the others will fail too, so I would recommend getting a whole new set (there are only 8 of them total). If you are putting new tappets in, you should prime them with diesel fuel (if available) or sit them upright in clean engine oil for a few hours.
11. Once all HLA's have been tested, either replace them, or reinstall them back into the rocker arms. Try to put them back in the arms you removed from, as this will ensure the wear on the HLA and rocker arm is matched. Once again, ensure they are kept vertical to stop the oil from leaking out. Place masking tape over the end of the rocker arms to stop the HLA's falling out.
12. Place black Permatex/RTV sealant on the rear end camshaft seal and for ~1.5cm away from the seal. Smear clean engine oil on some on the camshaft bearing running surface and on the running surfaces of the bearing caps. Place the rocker gear back into place and loosely install bolts and hand-tighten.
13. Remove the tape from ends of the rocker arms before tightening, and using a torque wrench, torque all bearing cap bolts to 18-19 Nm, in the order of cap 3, 2, 4, front, rear. This step MUST be followed correctly!
14. Place black RTV/Permatex sealant along entire surface of rocker cover gasket (not required, but recommended to prevent leaks), especially taking note of the half-moon seal at the front end of engine, and the rear end, running all the way across the top of the rear end bearing cap to 1.5cm either side of it.
15. Reinstall the rocker cover, and do NOT overtighten it. Tighten it firmly, but do not tighten the bolts excessively, as the cover may crack or the bearing caps may distort and damage the engine.
16. Replace all vent lines, water pump pulley cover and accelerator bracket.
17. Start the engine and wait for significant rattling to subside, then slowly rev the engine up to 3000 rpm and back down to idle over a space of 30 seconds.

Hi all,
thanks for this great explaination Dave, i will change the lifters this coming weekend. As you mentioned, the price is around $ 10, where can i get them? I asked at AUTO ONE their price is $ 26 per lifter. I'm in Sydney.

Regards
Jos

Hi all,
thanks for this great explaination Dave, i will change the lifters this coming weekend. As you mentioned, the price is around $ 10, where can i get them? I asked at AUTO ONE their price is $ 26 per lifter. I'm in Sydney.

Regards
Jos

Hi mate, i have the V6 2nd gen and Got my lifters for $12 each from Bursons. Expensive little buggers

Hi all,
thanks for this great explaination Dave, i will change the lifters this coming weekend. As you mentioned, the price is around $ 10, where can i get them? I asked at AUTO ONE their price is $ 26 per lifter. I'm in Sydney.

Regards
Jos

lol, i'd be happy with $26 !!

Fraud (Ford) charged me $60 per lifter for a 95 model falcon :tantrum: