Guys, for those of you haven't done them I wanted to encourage you to contact Barry and spend what amounts to very little dollars on two mods that will make your car run much sweeter. I fitted both kits two weeks ago and am stoked.

The earthing kit. Can't talk for manual cars, but for auto cars I can tell you that the box will shift so much slicker you will scarcely beleive it. Idle is also firmer. I actually had an interesting chat to an NRMA Roadside Service Tech friend the other day about earthing and he was very interested to look at it. He instantly said it made total sense to do the conversion to ANY AUSTRALIAN MADE CAR. Why? Because in his experience Aust manufacturers take the cheap and easy way out and use the heater and radiator hoses as a form of earthing and therefore very lightly earth through other means. Apart from running rougher than they would if ideally earthed, what he notices is that the heater and radiator hoses on Oz cars persih far more quickly than other cars, Japanese ones in particular. Interesting.

The fuel rail kit. Has given my car an obvious boost in mid range response, particuarly on part throttle.

The combined effect of both kits? Smooth is the word. Oh, and Barry's claim of less soot in the tailpipe? Absolutely on the money.

Thanks Barry for so generously donating your expertise and for taking the time and effort to make your expertise available for what amounts to very little money. It's people like you that make this the best car club I have been a part of in 30 years of car ownership. Everybody else, what are you waiting for? Go get these kits :)

haha glad to see another member happy! I've got both those kits and the thermal gaskets.

Just wait till you get all the people posting up claiming you are raving/they do nothing/waste of money rarara lol


Leaves thread before it turns into another massive argument as to whether Barry's kits are good or not...

Sold.

I've been meaning to buy an earthing and fuel rail kit for a while now. As soon as funds permit I'll be sending a PM your way Baz. :cool:

Having had his kits installed and dealt with the man himself, I wholeheartedly agree. He is incredibly helpful, happy to share his knowledge till the cows come home, and obviously has had very little financial incentive to do the work he's done.

The fuel rail and earthing kit combined really does give a very noticeable difference in low-rpm throttle response and smoothness, can't recomend them enough. Perhaps this is particularly noticeable in a manual carm, where after getting the kits I noticed I could hang onto taller gears without the motor feeling laboured, when cruising up hills etc.

Cheers Barry.

sounds good to me. where do you go to get it done? wat prices we looking at?

sounds good to me. where do you go to get it done? wat prices we looking at?


http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32924

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23303

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38061


Send a PM to BARRY, thats the quickest way for a response, the original thread was locked so maybe he can posts the prices for new/old members.

I agree, Barry was very helpful and he even installed the kit for me one day for a small fee (I was happy to pay him alot more, but thats just the kind of guy he is)

The difference in the feeling of the car with the earthing kit was instantaneous. Love it.

Yes, totally in love with the kits. Got the fuel rails and gaskets. Car definitely rides better. And how can I tell? Hmm, cause wife has same car sans mods. Most of the time, it's my car that goes out cause it feels nicer and more responsive according to her.

And as anybody knows, The WIFE is alway RIGHT

Just wait till you get all the people posting up claiming you are raving/they or nothing/waste of money rarara lol

:D
Heh, yee.
They certainly assist fixing earthing problems - if one had bad earthing. I mainly experienced less high RPMs on cold starts, which alone was sufficient reason to install it.
I did provide Barry some technical points regarding the installation and wording (after doing mine) but dunno if he has done any amendments to his instructions.
Fuel kit provided smooth run on low BF opening but along with HiFli TB requires bit of learning to feather the pedal to fully utilise the benefits.
Over all, both kits are beneficial, for some more and for some less but still worth to install.

Barry - empty your PM inbox!!

Barry - empty your PM inbox!!

Just made a few more spaces

I hope no-one else wasted their PM

Save your PM on WORD and then copy and paste (just in case)

Thanks guys

would the kit make sense for a Sprintex'd car? I'm assuming the earthing would still make a difference, but would the fuel rail mod and throttle body kits have that much affect?

cheers,
.wook

Just made a few more spaces

I hope no-one else wasted their PM

Save your PM on WORD and then copy and paste (just in case)

Thanks guys
Hey mate,
I'm interested in the grounding kit and gaskets (3.5L TJ2).
Are the gaskets easy to replace?

EY guys Ill put it out there and see what all say... I have installed the fuel rail kit (nothing else thou).. I didnt see any improvements from the car, dont get me wrong im not 'dissin' the rail kit at all, but should I go for the earthing kit or others to combine with the rail kit??...

(i have no car knowledge but i really want to learn) can someone please explain what these kits are for? and how hard they are to install?
Thanks

Ok... there are 3 kits and here is basically what they do, or intend to do.

1. Fuel Rail Kit - Replaces the 4 factory plastic mounts which support the fuel rails with aluminium ones. This transfers the heat from motor heating up the fuel rail. This way the fuel is pre-heated before it enters the cylinder chambers. Intended result: Better and cleaner fuel detonation and economy. Also helps remove the dreaded flat spot if you are using a K&N panel filter.

2. Thermal Gaskets for Inlet Plenum, Throttle Body and EGR - Basically isolates the majority of the air intake components from anything that can transfer heat to them. So they theoretically should remain cooler than the rest of the motor, keeping the air flowing through them cooler. Results: Cooler air (more dense) entering the cylinder chamber so better detonation.

3. Grounding Kit - A kit of 4gauge pre-crimped cables. You attach them to various points in the engine bay, all back to one star connection with a single cable going to the battery. This removes potential ground loops and helps reduce electrical noise in the system. Result: Smoother idle, gear changes (for automatics) and general running.

NOTE: the above modifications are NOT designed to give you tyre shredding power increases and WILL NOT do that. They are purely designed to give you a smoother nicer car to drive. Some people don't notice much difference, others do. I did. Most of the people who criticize the kits don't have one. The majority who buy the kits a very happy with the result.

Hope that helps!
Cheers
Pete

Ok... there are 3 kits and here is basically what they do, or intend to do.

1. Fuel Rail Kit - Replaces the 4 factory plastic mounts which support the fuel rails with aluminium ones. This transfers the heat from motor heating up the fuel rail. This way the fuel is pre-heated before it enters the cylinder chambers. Intended result: Better and cleaner fuel detonation and economy. Also helps remove the dreaded flat spot if you are using a K&N panel filter.

2. Thermal Gaskets for Inlet Plenum, Throttle Body and EGR - Basically isolates the majority of the air intake components from anything that can transfer heat to them. So they theoretically should remain cooler than the rest of the motor, keeping the air flowing through them cooler. Results: Cooler air (more dense) entering the cylinder chamber so better detonation.

3. Grounding Kit - A kit of 4gauge pre-crimped cables. You attach them to various points in the engine bay, all back to one star connection with a single cable going to the battery. This removes potential ground loops and helps reduce electrical noise in the system. Result: Smoother idle, gear changes (for automatics) and general running.

NOTE: the above modifications are NOT designed to give you tyre shredding power increases and WILL NOT do that. They are purely designed to give you a smoother nicer car to drive. Some people don't notice much difference, others do. I did. Most of the people who criticize the kits don't have one. The majority who buy the kits a very happy with the result.

Hope that helps!
Cheers
Pete

Thanks for that.

Couple more questions.

1. Who in Sydney can do this & at what cost

Thanks for that.

Couple more questions.

1. Who in Sydney can do this & at what cost

What part of Sydney are you in ?

sounds good to me. where do you go to get it done? wat prices we looking at?

I would normally post the kits direct to you, and you could take your car to your trusty mechanic

If you have a friend who is a car enthusiast, he may do it for you (for a 6-pack?)

The hardest part is removing/refitting the plenum, but this is done when replacing the rear spark plugs, anyway

Post up your location and someone here with the skills might be interested in helping you out

Cheers, Barry

Fuel Rail Tuning Kit...$49.50 all V6, $29.50 2nd and 3rd Gen 4 Cyl
Electrical earthing/grounding kit...$95 3rd Gen V6 only
including delivery

What part of Sydney are you in ?

Work in Blacktown area, live in the Hills district

Work in Blacktown area, live in the Hills district

good, cause he is in penrith

Work in Blacktown area, live in the Hills district

I'm not too far from you, so give me a PM and I'll arrange something - but just leave it for a few days so I can catch up

Thanks, Barry

would the kit make sense for a Sprintex'd car? I'm assuming the earthing would still make a difference, but would the fuel rail mod and throttle body kits have that much affect?

cheers,
.wook

I havn't done an assessment for this application as yet, but I would expect results close to what you have stated here - probably very much improved ECU function and the resulting performance that flows from this

Cheers, Barry

Hey mate,
I'm interested in the grounding kit and gaskets (3.5L TJ2).
Are the gaskets easy to replace?

They are reasonably easy to replace - the plenum obviously needs to be removed/refitted to allow access to the plenum gasket and rear fuel rail (and rear spark plugs if you decide to change them as well)

Cheers, Barry

EY guys Ill put it out there and see what all say... I have installed the fuel rail kit (nothing else thou).. I didnt see any improvements from the car, dont get me wrong im not 'dissin' the rail kit at all, but should I go for the earthing kit or others to combine with the rail kit??...

Hi Damo
IIRC we were talking about checking the coolant temp sensor and the oxy sensor if the tailpipe did not show an improvement in colour and sootiness

If they are not working properly, they can run so rich that you can actually lose power

I'd check them before adding any more mods

Cheers, Barry

i dont have one but question... does the earthing kit fit the 380?

2. Thermal Gaskets for Inlet Plenum, Throttle Body and EGR - Basically isolates the majority of the air intake components from anything that can transfer heat to them. So they theoretically should remain cooler than the rest of the motor, keeping the air flowing through them cooler. Results: Cooler air (more dense) entering the cylinder chamber so better detonation.

Anyone done a temp test in the engine bay after 30-60 min drive?
I have.
All components, including Stut Brace heated up to 55 - 60 deg.
See my point? :)

i dont have one but question... does the earthing kit fit the 380?

I havn't looked at a kit for one yet, but I hope to get to it in due course

Cheers, Barry

Anyone done a temp test in the engine bay after 30-60 min drive?
I have.
All components, including Stut Brace heated up to 55 - 60 deg.
See my point? :)

Yes, heat soak will eventually get to all engine components, even the bodywork
The stock gaskets are a very thin type of plastic material that allow heat to conduct from engine to plenum, TB to plenum in an attempt to have the intake air warm the cold fuel

As I have posted before, the new gasket material helps to slow the temp rise when starting from cold, and directs more of the heat away from the plenum and back to the TB idle circuit, so that correct idle speed is reached sooner, saving fuel

Removing the plenum gives access to the plenum gasket, rear fuel rail and rear spark plugs, so it's a good idea to do the gasket at the same time

Barry

Guys, for those of you haven't done them I wanted to encourage you to contact Barry and spend what amounts to very little dollars on two mods that will make your car run much sweeter. I fitted both kits two weeks ago and am stoked.

The earthing kit. Can't talk for manual cars, but for auto cars I can tell you that the box will shift so much slicker you will scarcely beleive it. Idle is also firmer. I actually had an interesting chat to an NRMA Roadside Service Tech friend the other day about earthing and he was very interested to look at it. He instantly said it made total sense to do the conversion to ANY AUSTRALIAN MADE CAR. Why? Because in his experience Aust manufacturers take the cheap and easy way out and use the heater and radiator hoses as a form of earthing and therefore very lightly earth through other means. Apart from running rougher than they would if ideally earthed, what he notices is that the heater and radiator hoses on Oz cars persih far more quickly than other cars, Japanese ones in particular. Interesting.

The fuel rail kit. Has given my car an obvious boost in mid range response, particuarly on part throttle.

The combined effect of both kits? Smooth is the word. Oh, and Barry's claim of less soot in the tailpipe? Absolutely on the money.

Thanks Barry for so generously donating your expertise and for taking the time and effort to make your expertise available for what amounts to very little money. It's people like you that make this the best car club I have been a part of in 30 years of car ownership. Everybody else, what are you waiting for? Go get these kits :)

Hi Schnell
Well first let me say thanks for your comments about the kits

It is good to have the ECU electrically stable and performing at its' peak, as it controls many engine functions

Electrical currents allowed to flow in the coolant circuits can lead to deterioration of the coolant and corrosion of alloy engine parts

Excessive soot can partially block cats, as well as clog your TB and intake

Schnell, did you do any other work (spark plugs, leads, etc) at the same time that may have improved the result ?

Cheers, Barry

Hi Schnell
Well first let me say thanks for your comments about the kits

It is good to have the ECU electrically stable and performing at its' peak, as it controls many engine functions

Electrical currents allowed to flow in the coolant circuits can lead to deterioration of the coolant and corrosion of alloy engine parts

Excessive soot can partially block cats, as well as clog your TB and intake

Schnell, did you do any other work (spark plugs, leads, etc) at the same time that may have improved the result ?

Cheers, Barry

Barry:
No probs. Credit given where it's due in my books.

I also did new factory plus leads and 6 Iridium plugs a fortnight AFTER adding your mods. But the driving improvements your mods made were immediately apparent. The lack of soot in the tailpipe after 2 weeks was obvious to me cos I wash the car every fortnight and am very familiar with the large quantity of soot which I have to wipe outa the inside of the pipe and lish off the rim.

The plug leads and plugs made no obvious change in themsleves - I did them as a precautionary thing.

Oh, and I should add that wife hardly ever drives the car and yet she noticed the box shift quality change straight off. And my 18 year old son who drives the car 3 times a week said he noticed the extra wack in the 3-4000 rpm range on kickdown. Bear in mind that I delberately blind-sided both of them by not telling them what either kit was suppose to do....

Yes they do rock, after having my Earthing and Gasket kits sitting here for two mths I finally fitted the earthing kit today. Mechanic was supposed to do the gasket kit when I had new Iridium plugs, new 9mm NGK leads, new dizzy cap, dizzy rotor, timing belt were done and full auto flush and service, but because there was a metal gasket on the plenum he didnt bother putting on the new set?? This is after being told to fit(and shown) the new ones. Pissed off I was indeed....

WOW! I have been having troubles with the shift in my auto since I bought my TH Solara last year, had flush done, new mitsu fluid and filter etc didnt help. I reset the ECU after fitting this kit and I am stoked, the shift is so smooth, My Mrs(who doesnt even drive) noted how sweet and smooth the change become, and its apparent whether im giving it full throttle or just crusin off at the lights.

Power delivery seems to be smoother too, I fitted a K&N Panel filter a mth ago and instantly got a flat spot on take off, now its gone! Revs nice and free all the way to the redline(had to give it a try) you can feel the difference from about 2500-4500 bigtime. Now we arent talking the difference of a set of exctractors or a supercharger etc, but its definately there.

Finally, after doing the earthing kit and I also dropped the oil and changed filter, reset the ECU. Family and I went for a nice cruise to Bendigo(bout 45klms) filled her up with premium and we then did about 200ks(mostly hwy on cruise), I used just on 1/4 of a tank and the trip computer has dropped from 10.2 to to 8.9(with the a/c on mind you).


Thanks Barry, Ill be fitting the gaskets this week sometime and when I have a bit of spare cash ill be contacting you for the fuel rail kit. I was about to sell my magna(3rd 3rd gen ive had) and buy a VX Berlina, you've reignited my interest in these cars.

Highly recommended to any Magna owner!

Luke

bit of a thread mine there mate lol


yes they do work and work very very well, i've got the fuel rail kit and thermo gaskets installed on my car and they do the job very well

Yes they do rock, after having my Earthing and Gasket kits sitting here for two mths I finally fitted the earthing kit today. Mechanic was supposed to do the gasket kit when I had new Iridium plugs, new 9mm NGK leads, new dizzy cap, dizzy rotor, timing belt were done and full auto flush and service, but because there was a metal gasket on the plenum he didnt bother putting on the new set?? This is after being told to fit(and shown) the new ones. Pissed off I was indeed....

WOW! I have been having troubles with the shift in my auto since I bought my TH Solara last year, had flush done, new mitsu fluid and filter etc didnt help. I reset the ECU after fitting this kit and I am stoked, the shift is so smooth, My Mrs(who doesnt even drive) noted how sweet and smooth the change become, and its apparent whether im giving it full throttle or just crusin off at the lights.

Power delivery seems to be smoother too, I fitted a K&N Panel filter a mth ago and instantly got a flat spot on take off, now its gone! Revs nice and free all the way to the redline(had to give it a try) you can feel the difference from about 2500-4500 bigtime. Now we arent talking the difference of a set of exctractors or a supercharger etc, but its definately there.

Finally, after doing the earthing kit and I also dropped the oil and changed filter, reset the ECU. Family and I went for a nice cruise to Bendigo(bout 45klms) filled her up with premium and we then did about 200ks(mostly hwy on cruise), I used just on 1/4 of a tank and the trip computer has dropped from 10.2 to to 8.9(with the a/c on mind you).


Thanks Barry, Ill be fitting the gaskets this week sometime and when I have a bit of spare cash ill be contacting you for the fuel rail kit. I was about to sell my magna(3rd 3rd gen ive had) and buy a VX Berlina, you've reignited my interest in these cars.

Highly recommended to any Magna owner!

Luke

Hi Luke - thanks very much for the positive comments - its lucky in a way that you only fitted the earthing kit - gives everyone a chance to evaluate it on its own

You of course had the later version kit which uses 6 gauge black automotive cable with optimum strand size

You are correct in noticing smoother power delivery - the 3.5L v6 has an inherent problem where the rear cylinder head is out of synch with the front cyl head - correcting this can give you better coasting and smaller throttle openings

Readers might be interested to know which ECU reset you used (for an auto Tx) - and this is the point - that effective resets may depend on good electrical grounding of the car's system

Also interesting is that - fitting a K&N hi-flow air filter introduced a 'flat spot' - something that a few peeps had not considered likely - but then, importantly it was the electrical/grounding kit that removed the flat spot

The K&N is normally accredited with improving power in the higher rev range (probably due also to improved A/F ratios) and good from the mid 3000rpm range, but can cause lean-out in the 1500 - 2500 range

This can also be improved by fitting the fuel rail temp tuning kit - where the temp of the fuel rail is raised slightly, just enough to allow the fuel to better combine with the increased air from the filter, improving combustion

Now that you have the electrical improvement that also gives you a firmer idle, you can try the steering mod where you disconnect the yellow wire from the power steering pump

This will disable the high-pressure switch from operating the fast idle - and this in turn will reduce the power lost by the engine trying to pump harder

Caution - for safety reasons test this out firstly away from other traffic for effect - especially 3 point turns

Cheers, Barry

barry curious.. after a good year, will the ceramic gaskets still be good to take out of my old TE and into the new VRX?

Also, how limited was your run on the Razin ground kits with voltage stabiliser? from the sounds of it, most people have just got plain cables off you.

Cheers mate,
Damon

Hi Luke - thanks very much for the positive comments - its lucky in a way that you only fitted the earthing kit - gives everyone a chance to evaluate it on its own

You of course had the later version kit which uses 6 gauge black automotive cable with optimum strand size

You are correct in noticing smoother power delivery - the 3.5L v6 has an inherent problem where the rear cylinder head is out of synch with the front cyl head - correcting this can give you better coasting and smaller throttle openings

Readers might be interested to know which ECU reset you used (for an auto Tx) - and this is the point - that effective resets may depend on good electrical grounding of the car's system

Also interesting is that - fitting a K&N hi-flow air filter introduced a 'flat spot' - something that a few peeps had not considered likely - but then, importantly it was the electrical/grounding kit that removed the flat spot

The K&N is normally accredited with improving power in the higher rev range (probably due also to improved A/F ratios) and good from the mid 3000rpm range, but can cause lean-out in the 1500 - 2500 range

This can also be improved by fitting the fuel rail temp tuning kit - where the temp of the fuel rail is raised slightly, just enough to allow the fuel to better combine with the increased air from the filter, improving combustion

Now that you have the electrical improvement that also gives you a firmer idle, you can try the steering mod where you disconnect the yellow wire from the power steering pump

This will disable the high-pressure switch from operating the fast idle - and this in turn will reduce the power lost by the engine trying to pump harder

Caution - for safety reasons test this out firstly away from other traffic for effect - especially 3 point turns

Cheers, Barry
I would advise against this..

Disconnecting a wire that triggers an increase in RPM to compensate for the power steering pump to activate? Why don't you go right ahead and do the same for the aircon. This is frightful, the RPM only increases a marginal amount (50~100RPM), you won't get any increase in power, you'll just decrease driveability. MMAL didn't spend millions on engineering for you to come along and chop a wire off and sell it as snake oil.

As for an alleged flat spot that a K&N introduces (I'm presuming panel, but if you're hinting a pod filter you should definitely specify that), I'm calling bull**** as well, I've run my car at the drags with a paper filter, K&N panel filter and no filter with the poorer result leaning toward the paper filter. Again if you mean a pod filter, most pods will be installed in heated engine bay air which is poor installation at best and a flat spot should be expected.

Pre atomisation of fuel being injected via the 'tuning kit' is also another gripe I have, how can you honestly say that 4 alloy rings will improve any sort of 'flat spot' when the rails themselves are bolted to the inlet manifold via metal bolts.

Disconnecting a wire that triggers an increase in RPM to compensate for the power steering pump to activate? Why don't you go right ahead and do the same for the aircon. This is frightful, the RPM only increases a marginal amount (50~100RPM), you won't get any increase in power, you'll just decrease driveability. MMAL didn't spend millions on engineering for you to come along and chop a wire off and sell it as snake oil.

As for an alleged flat spot that a K&N introduces (I'm presuming panel, but if you're hinting a pod filter you should definitely specify that), I'm calling bull**** as well, I've run my car at the drags with a paper filter, K&N panel filter and no filter with the poorer result leaning toward the paper filter. Again if you mean a pod filter, most pods will be installed in heated engine bay air which is poor installation at best and a flat spot should be expected.

Pre atomisation of fuel being injected via the 'tuning kit' is also another gripe I have, how can you honestly say that 4 alloy rings will improve any sort of 'flat spot' when the rails themselves are bolted to the inlet manifold via metal bolts.

Lucifier knows his shiz fool!

Earthing Kit?

Quick question - how can an earthing kit make your electrical system better?* Or make your idle 'firmer'.

I will reserve this following icon for the reply -----> lol


*I know bad earths can lead to problems, I've been working on car electrics for 5 years. I just want to know how an earthing kit improves an earth, or makes it better.

Oh no... The can O worms has been unleashed!!!

Run Hide!

I won't give my opinion on other mods but earthing kit mod is a gimmick. Factory earthing is sized correctly and unless is damaged or corroded is perfectly adequate for its intended purpose. When engine is running ,it is powered by the alternator, so any grounds on the engine will conduct current directly to the alternator and not through any earth strap to the battery.
I would like to see before and after resistance values of earthing connections as a proof that there are any improvements. I am electrician with many years of experience.

i've got th thermo gaskets + the fuel rail kit on my car and they have made a difference with fuel consumption

Earthing Kit?

Quick question - how can an earthing kit make your electrical system better?* Or make your idle 'firmer'.

I will reserve this following icon for the reply -----> lol


*I know bad earths can lead to problems, I've been working on car electrics for 5 years. I just want to know how an earthing kit improves an earth, or makes it better.
Go back and check my first post.

As ever, this whole conversation always gets real interesting, with people getting very passionate one way or the other about the whole. All I can say is read my original post and bear in mind I am a dyed in the wool sceptic when it comes to these types of mods, additives to oils etc etc. For me the key to this all was my wife - who is a total neanderthal when it comes to cars lol - voluntarily telling me she had noticed a change in the car when I hadn't told her I had fitted the kit...

In the end, my bottom line - like any other mod we all do to our cars - is don't bag people out if you haven't tried stuff for yourself.

Schnell.

I wasnt bagging anyone out - just stating my side of things, from experience with auto electrics.

Look - from my experience, this is nothing short of a bandaid fix (at best).

If your wife noticed a difference, thats great - what condition was the earth cable from battery to body, and battery to starter motor?

Thats the only cables that need upgrading, or, a look at.

As an example please tell me how adding a wire from gearbox to motor will improve its earthing characteristics when the cross sectional area of the engine to bell housing contact is far greater than a piece of cable between to alloy or steel alloy connection which has a continuity of 0 ohms?

Not blasting you - and yes im passionate.

It is possible that you felt a difference, however - consider why, was it the earthing kit, or was it poor maintenance of the existing electrical system that got 'corrected' by an earthing kit?

Btw - the ECU and (from memory) auto computer run off 5V - unless your alternator drops out, your battery is near completely flat, and earthing kit wont do bugger all for either.

I won't give my opinion on other mods but earthing kit mod is a gimmick. Factory earthing is sized correctly and unless is damaged or corroded is perfectly adequate for its intended purpose. When engine is running ,it is powered by the alternator, so any grounds on the engine will conduct current directly to the alternator and not through any earth strap to the battery.
I would like to see before and after resistance values of earthing connections as a proof that there are any improvements. I am electrician with many years of experience.
Check out for some measured resistances: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=819690&postcount=65

barry curious.. after a good year, will the ceramic gaskets still be good to take out of my old TE and into the new VRX?

Also, how limited was your run on the Razin ground kits with voltage stabiliser? from the sounds of it, most people have just got plain cables off you.

Cheers mate,
Damon

Hi Damon

Yes, they should be ok, but check them out visually and if there is any doubt, run a thin bead of suitable sealant just to make sure

Yes, you are correct - even though all the technicals were there I didn't push the idea that Magnas needed to have voltage stabilisers because I couldn't justify advocating a kit that didn't make a noticeable difference in terms of driveability/economy/smooth torque delivery

The VS may have made a difference to hi-end audio equipment performance and possibly to reducing the chance of surges in the electrical system, but these can also be obtained by other means

On the evidence of several actual owners "who really know their stuff " and were able to fit the kits for themselves, the earthing kit achieved excellent results

Cheers, Barry

what he notices is that the heater and radiator hoses on Oz cars persih far more quickly than other cars

I recall an episode of Mythbusters where AC current and DC current were applied to jail cell bars thru chilli sauce (Mexican jail bust). The DC current caused MASSIVE corrosion damage to the bars, despite being a lower voltage than the applied AC. There you go. :think:

barry clean out ya inbox.:rant:

barry clean out ya inbox.:rant:
Haven't you got your 380 yet?

...omg.. here we go again :doubt:

barry clean out ya inbox.:rant:

Sorry, buddy, had a sudden rush but all OK now

Cheers

I recall an episode of Mythbusters where AC current and DC current were applied to jail cell bars thru chilli sauce (Mexican jail bust). The DC current caused MASSIVE corrosion damage to the bars, despite being a lower voltage than the applied AC. There you go. :think:


AC wont corrode the bars at all, only DC will.

Disconnecting a wire that triggers an increase in RPM to compensate for the power steering pump to activate? Why don't you go right ahead and do the same for the aircon. This is frightful, the RPM only increases a marginal amount (50~100RPM), you won't get any increase in power, you'll just decrease driveability. MMAL didn't spend millions on engineering for you to come along and chop a wire off and sell it as snake oil.

As for an alleged flat spot that a K&N introduces (I'm presuming panel, but if you're hinting a pod filter you should definitely specify that), I'm calling bull**** as well, I've run my car at the drags with a paper filter, K&N panel filter and no filter with the poorer result leaning toward the paper filter. Again if you mean a pod filter, most pods will be installed in heated engine bay air which is poor installation at best and a flat spot should be expected.

Pre atomisation of fuel being injected via the 'tuning kit' is also another gripe I have, how can you honestly say that 4 alloy rings will improve any sort of 'flat spot' when the rails themselves are bolted to the inlet manifold via metal bolts.

Hi Lucifer

WADR - You are kidding, right ?
This is exactly what is done to air conditioners
There are several electronic units out there, IIRC made by Silicon chip and Autospeed that disconnect the compressor when maximum torque is reqd, so that is very similar to what I am describing in my post

The rpm may rise by 50-100, but when the heads are correctly earthed, becomes more like 300rpm

Sorry, but you DO get a net increase in power, and you DO improve driveability when combined with kits that correct the deficiencies in the system

Just the fact that economy improved by 0.5L/100Km is largely proof in itself
It’s hard to describe the rush you get when you take to the road for the first time and see the numbers tumble on the average fuel readout

You have presumed correctly – I am referring to a panel filter
Pod filters that may be badly installed are not part of correctly evaluating a prescribed modification

It is reasonably assumed that the vehicle is in good condition and stock specification without faults, unless fitted with stated existing modification

Pre atomisation of fuel being injected via the 'tuning kit' is also another gripe I have, how can you honestly say that 4 alloy rings will improve any sort of 'flat spot' when the rails themselves are bolted to the inlet manifold via metal bolts.

Your quote doesn’t actually make sense – I think you are possibly confusing the raising of the temp of the fuel that enhances combustion – with the electrical earthing that may (or may not) be provided by the bolts themselves

In any event - the heat increase required for the fuel to reach optimum temp would not be met by the bolts alone – you must have the alloy fuel rail mounts to provide sufficient, and stable heat transfer to the fuel rail

You can see the size and volume of the fuel rails compared to other cars – one thing that Mitsu did get right !

Remember that an earthing kit has been described in Performance buildups magazine - complete with Dyno testing, and there are many AMC'ers that have actually tried my kits and reported good results

Thanks for your input
Cheers, Barry

Earthing Kit?

Quick question - how can an earthing kit make your electrical system better?* Or make your idle 'firmer'.

I will reserve this following icon for the reply -----> lol


*I know bad earths can lead to problems, I've been working on car electrics for 5 years. I just want to know how an earthing kit improves an earth, or makes it better.

Hi Ers

This has very little to do with bad earths - more to do with identifing areas that can be improved

Could I ask that you take a look at the earthing/grounding kit described in Performance buildups magazine - complete with Dyno testing, before making further comment

It was done, not on just any car, but a Magna/ralliart IIRC

It was posted up here somewhere on AMC

* I have ~30 yrs experience in automotive electronics - a lot of that time was in actual 'hands-on' installation and fault finding, incl OEM design

Also included was tracing the source of electrical noise, interference and correcting inherent deficiencies in vehicle electrical systems - so I think that qualifies me to re-design the Magna electricals which have some very obvious design issues

Thanks, Barry

Far out, give the guy a break! I can't believe this argument keeps appearing.

99% of the people who buy these mods (and I am one) have only positive feedback. 99.9% of the negative feedback comes from people who don't have it and have never been in a magna that does. Ask questions sure, but flame the developer/mods/buyers without trying it yourself and you are showing a rather obvious lack of maturity and intelligence.

Far out, give the guy a break! I can't believe this argument keeps appearing.

99% of the people who buy these mods (and I am one) have only positive feedback. 99.9% of the negative feedback comes from people who don't have it and have never been in a magna that does. Ask questions sure, but flame the developer/mods/buyers without trying it yourself and you are showing a rather obvious lack of maturity and intelligence.
Spot on, couldnt have said it better myself.

I wasnt a sceptic before, and thought, hell for the price, I'm gonna give them a go.
Couldnt be happier with the results.


Luke

Hi Ers

This has very little to do with bad earths - more to do with identifing areas that can be improved

Could I ask that you take a look at the earthing/grounding kit described in Performance buildups magazine - complete with Dyno testing, before making further comment

It was done, not on just any car, but a Magna/ralliart IIRC

It was posted up here somewhere on AMC

* I have ~30 yrs experience in automotive electronics - a lot of that time was in actual 'hands-on' installation and fault finding, incl OEM design

Also included was tracing the source of electrical noise, interference and correcting inherent deficiencies in vehicle electrical systems - so I think that qualifies me to re-design the Magna electricals which have some very obvious design issues

Thanks, Barry

Hi Barry,

Cheers for the reply.

Read the article - it didnt quite explain why the gain was made - which, im not saying it cant be made, but it doesnt stipulate how the gains are made (it also uses a voltage stabiliser)

Im quite happy to learn - so, seeing the dyno results on a couple of seperate tests, have a couple questions:

Could it be possible that the gains are due to the coils voltage being uninterupted? ECU shouldnt be affected by volts fluctuating between 13-14.4V as it runs off 5V IIRC

Stronger spark, better combustion, could explain that 1% power increase.

Before these kits are installed - does anyone check the factory earth straps to see if they are loose, grime build up, rust, or if they are over paint?

Now not knowing where you connect your kits to (battery terminal?) IIRC, when the engine is running, the most important earths are the alternator and starter motor, a

Now, to me - the most important points to earth would be:
Starter motor --> Battery Negative
Alternator --> Battery Negative
Battery Negative --> Body

Ever since the model T Ford people have been interested in "improving" their cars.
This can range through fox tails for your radio aerial and white wall tyres to "magic" fuel atomisers and "improvements" to cam angles, air filters and extra wiring to "smoothen" the flow of electricity around the system.

Do they work? Wrong question! The question should be - did you enjoy spending the money, and do you feel better about your car? If so, go for it, and f#@%k the need for a "logical" explanation.

hell for the price, I'm gonna give them a go.
Couldnt be happier with the results.


Luke

I'll give this much - $95 isnt a bad price.

I've seen these go for in excess of $250 ($300-350 sometimes for 'HKS' earth kits).

This will disable the high-pressure switch from operating the fast idle - and this in turn will reduce the power lost by the engine trying to pump harder


And this helps how? :nuts:

Fast idle is operated at IDLE SPEED FFS - which means 0-1% throttle position. Since when do you need a power increase at idle?

The power steering pump is not clutch driven, it has constant mechanical drive. The only way to reduce pump speed is by mechanical underdrive or reducing engine RPM; or why don't you make a "thuper duper power steering belt mod" by where you slacken off the belt to create drive slip.. which in turn creates less pump drive and less power lost. :nuts:

So with these earthing kits, what exactly is earthed and is it bolt on, solder on etc?

Does anyone have a pic of what you get for your $$

The theory to me sounds sound as the modern car has many issues with corrosion as well as poor electrical set up to start with. Earthing critical parts is making sense

The OP mention of NRMA mate stating that the earthing is done by coolant and hoses is a load of crap. Rubber is an insulator not a conductor. The heater core is not earthed nor is the radiator. I can not see even if the coolant was that good a conductor, where aside form the block and heads it comes into contact with anything that you could call an earth. Dunno perhaps I am not looking at something here???

The OP mention of NRMA mate stating that the earthing is done by coolant and hoses is a load of crap. Rubber is an insulator not a conductor. The heater core is not earthed nor is the radiator. I can not see even if the coolant was that good a conductor, where aside form the block and heads it comes into contact with anything that you could call an earth. Dunno perhaps I am not looking at something here???

All it is, is people getting confused between voltage stabilisation.. and electrolysis reduction within the cooling system.

This thread is full of confusion! :bowrofl:

And this helps how? :nuts:

Fast idle is operated at IDLE SPEED FFS - which means 0-1% throttle position. Since when do you need a power increase at idle?

The power steering pump is not clutch driven, it has constant mechanical drive. The only way to reduce pump speed is by mechanical underdrive or reducing engine RPM; or why don't you make a "thuper duper power steering belt mod" by where you slacken off the belt to create drive slip.. which in turn creates less pump drive and less power lost. :nuts:

Hi Firestorm

I never said the power steering pump was clutch driven - I don't know where you got that from - it's belt driven directly from the engine

in fact I havn't actually said most of what is in your post

What I DID say was -

"Now that you have the electrical improvement that also gives you a firmer idle, you can try the steering mod where you disconnect the yellow wire from the power steering pump

This will disable the high-pressure switch from operating the fast idle - and this in turn will reduce the power lost by the engine trying to pump harder"

What this means is that, for a 3rd Gen Magna that is encountering excessive steering pump pressure at near full lock, there will be a tendency for the engine to stall

Normally, the idle-up signal from the pressure switch will cause a higher idle - sufficient for the engine to continue operating

However, if the engine is in need of a tune, and has poor idle and rough running (as many owners have reported) and when doing a 3-point turn, with the Magna's poor turning circle, the engine may quite easily stall - leading to a possible safety issue in heavy traffic

What I have found is that - if you get the rough idle corrected, there is sufficient power recovered from the engine at idle speed to continue turning the steering - without the need for the idle-up switch to increase rpm against increased pump pressure

This means that you can operate your car with the pump only supplying base line pressure, and that translates to better steering feel and 0.5L/100Km better fuel economy

Regards, Barry

I apollogise as i interpreted your quote the wrong way.. i perceived that you were trying to say it increased engine power throughout the board.

"and this in turn will reduce the power lost by the engine trying to pump harder"

Check out for some measured resistances: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=819690&postcount=65

Hi Cummins

Sorry but resistance measurement is really only good for small DC circuits and continuity checks

When you are working within the automotive enviroment that have components operating from milli-amps to hundreds of amps, voltages from low volts to 1000's of volts, under extremes of temperature and with expansion and contraction - you really must make measurements while the engine is actually working and up to temp

The engine cannot be regarded as a reliable "earth" in modern vehicles, because it is partly made up of alloy components which can be corroded internally and no longer electrically stable

Nor can it offer the same conductivity as a cast-iron block

The earth cables used on 3rd Gens are basic, and barely enough for a 4 Cylinder carburettor engine, much less a V6 with fuel injection

Regards, Barry

Just as well that 6g74 and 6g72 both have cast iron blocks...

Just as well that 6g74 and 6g72 both have cast iron blocks...

:bowrofl: lol

:nuts:
Just as well that 6g74 and 6g72 both have cast iron blocks...

They are alloy not iron

:nuts:

They are alloy not iron

Hrm.....

Everything I can find says Cast Iron block, alloy cylinder heads?

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2852/printArticle.html

The engine cannot be regarded as a reliable "earth" in modern vehicles, because it is partly made up of alloy components which can be corroded internally and no longer electrically stable

Before an alloy block, plenum, cylinder head, starter motor housing becomes so corroded it is electrically unstable, it would need to be in rather bad shape.

I have seen alloy corrossion, it takes a lot before alloy corrodes to the point where it might be slightly more resistive than normal alloy. Even then, it starts as pitting, on the outside, not on the inside (as corrosion begins with contact to air/moisture)*

Basically, your engine would fall apart before this was ever reached.

*Footnote. Yes alloy corrosion can start on the inside of an engine, mainly inside any coolant passages, from either mixing coolants, running normal water, or having coollant low.

Also - unless im reading this wrong - alloy has a lower resistance than iron...

aluminum 26.5 ρ (nΩ·m)
iron 96.1 ρ (nΩ·m)

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/electricity/resistance/

Just as well that 6g74 and 6g72 both have cast iron blocks...

The engine cannot be regarded as a reliable "earth" in modern vehicles, because it is partly made up of alloy components which can be corroded internally and no longer electrically stable

Nor can it offer the same conductivity as a cast-iron block

I am only talking here in general terms about the engine in modern vehicles - and how the alloy components will not have the same conductivity as a cast-iron block

There is also the problem of the bolting-together of dissimilar metal components also leading to corrosion

Hmm... might have to get one of dem earthing jobs when I move the battery to the boot.

Humm, sounds like an interesting concept.

As I would normally agree with ERS and his scientific side of thinking I just can't help but feel that it is flawed, these earthing kits really must do something otherwise we wouldn't see so many members praising them.

ERS I know all the variables you can think of say these don't work, but in something as complex as this the proof of the pudding is really in the eating.

The engine cannot be regarded as a reliable "earth" in modern vehicles, because it is partly made up of alloy components which can be corroded internally and no longer electrically stable

Nor can it offer the same conductivity as a cast-iron block

I am only talking here in general terms about the engine in modern vehicles - and how the alloy components will not have the same conductivity as a cast-iron block

There is also the problem of the bolting-together of dissimilar metal components also leading to corrosion

Hey mate, can you answer my question by any chance, are these bolt on, solder on etc. I would be interested in trying one of these from you but would like to see what it is I am getting before I dish out the case :)

Do not need intricate detail, just some basics on what yo have on offer and how it all attahces, how tidy it is etc

bolt onto existing engine nuts, plus some that barry provides :)

Hey mate, can you answer my question by any chance, are these bolt on, solder on etc. I would be interested in trying one of these from you but would like to see what it is I am getting before I dish out the case :)

Do not need intricate detail, just some basics on what yo have on offer and how it all attahces, how tidy it is etc

The cables are crimped and soldered to lugs which are then bolted onto the various locations in the engine bay. All very well made.

Humm, sounds like an interesting concept.

As I would normally agree with ERS and his scientific side of thinking I just can't help but feel that it is flawed, these earthing kits really must do something otherwise we wouldn't see so many members praising them.

ERS I know all the variables you can think of say these don't work, but in something as complex as this the proof of the pudding is really in the eating.

Im not saying they dont work at all.

The cars with dyno charts behind them, also have voltage stabilisers - which will do some benefit for the coils perhaps.

If this kit happens to improve your idle, make your car shift quiker, stop your lights dimming - there's a simpler solution, check your wiring (earths).

People seem to have this impression that wiring lasts forever, it still needs to be serviced/maintained.

I can't believe this has come up again. If spending money makes people feel happy, they can spend as much as they want, who cares whether it makes a difference or not, its not my money, so I don't...

So does anyone want to post a pic of what their engine bay looks like with this fitted? I am certainly not going to buy jack until I have seen what my money is going on?

So does anyone want to post a pic of what their engine bay looks like with this fitted? I am certainly not going to buy jack until I have seen what my money is going on?

If its done properly its not seen at all, unless you get blue or red wiring?:nuts:

I ran 2g black cable from the negative terminal to a splitter box. from there i split it into 4 8 ga cable that follow the original loom to the Gbox engine mount. inlet manifold near the distributor. to the coil. and one to the front chassis rail.... just usin crimped on gold plated ring terminals.

got it all from jaycar for about $50!

Hey mate, can you answer my question by any chance, are these bolt on, solder on etc. I would be interested in trying one of these from you but would like to see what it is I am getting before I dish out the case :)

Do not need intricate detail, just some basics on what yo have on offer and how it all attahces, how tidy it is etc

The main difference with most kits is that they usualy consist of a standard set of cables of varying lengths, wheras mine is a fully customised system that is measured and labelled

They are fully bolt-on, all terminals are crimped and soldered and then heat shrunk

It attaches to all necessary points on engine and chassis, with a multi-adapter that goes out of sight - and the battery posts are kept as standard

Cables are black and unobtrusive

Cheers

Im not saying they dont work at all.

The cars with dyno charts behind them, also have voltage stabilisers - which will do some benefit for the coils perhaps.

If this kit happens to improve your idle, make your car shift quiker, stop your lights dimming - there's a simpler solution, check your wiring (earths).

People seem to have this impression that wiring lasts forever, it still needs to be serviced/maintained.

What I did was to fit the earthing kit first, assess it, and then fit the VS - I couldn't notice any difference in my TJ2, but I have read that rally teams in Europe had most success when the VS and earthing kit was fitted to the small capacity, modified in-line 4 cyl engines

Cheers

I had the three Barry kits (earthing kit, thermal gaskets, fuel rail mounts) fitted last Saturday. I decided to run them in for a week before I posted. That included the cruise to Wollongong, a couple of Sydney-Parramatta return trips, and various shorter city trips.

The biggest change I noticed was an immediate and considerable improvement in "smoothness" - the kind of improvement you typically get when the the engine has just been flushed and tuned and the oil changed. I am not sure which mod to attribute this to - I would assume the earthing kit or fuel rail mounts, rather than the gaskets. I noticed this as soon as the mods had been fitted - no delay at all.

To elaborate, the car sounds much smoother (idles and accelerates more evenly), and the "flat spot" that I used to have when flooring it in second has reduced to probably about one-third of the duration it previously was.

I was very careful to avoid "noticing" improvements which were just in my head as a result of reading this thread and others, however after careful consideration I am in no doubt that the engine is now running much more smoothly than it was before I had the mods fitted.

I also noticed a slight improvement in fuel economy (I'm now using about 1.3 litres / 100km less than previously), however it is difficult to assess the fuel economy improvement without a longer run-in period so I won't harp on about that too much.

It should also be noted that my car is a manual, and so the benefits of smoother gear changes that auto drivers have experienced and commented on above in this thread was not a benefit which would accrue to me.

Notwithstanding that, I highly recommend that manual drivers seriously consider fitting whatever kit it was that made the engine run more smoothly - it just makes the car even more of a pleasure to drive, it really feels like it's just been serviced. I can't wait to see how it runs when it has actually just been serviced.

I have an automatic 2002 TJ Magna running on LPG in a dual fuel arrangement.

If i was to install the fuel rail kit, would this cause any trouble?

I have an automatic 2002 TJ Magna running on LPG in a dual fuel arrangement.

If i was to install the fuel rail kit, would this cause any trouble?

Hi Jamier

I havn't tried the kit on LPG for comparison, so I can't comment - but I think any improvement would be minimal

I can say though, that the electrical earth kit will improve the performance of any stock 3.5L engine, as they all have the same inherant faults to a varying degree

The kit also improves automatic gear changes, and many owners have commented on the difference in performance from this two-fold effect

Cheers, Barry

Fuel rail kit wont do jack for lpg. LPG is fed through the manifold not your fuel rails. Same would apply to lpg injection as well as mixer setups.

Regards

So may I then ask, yet again for a picture of the installed system. I am still curious to purchase one and try and also Dyno to once and for all determine any difference if any. I have access to a Dyno but before forking out the $$, like anyone, would like to see what it is I am actually getting

Fuel rail kit wont do jack for lpg. LPG is fed through the manifold not your fuel rails. Same would apply to lpg injection as well as mixer setups.

Regards

Hi wrexed03

Thanks for the info, but his actual question was :-

If i was to install the fuel rail kit, would this cause any trouble?

The answer to that is no - and there would normally be improvement when on petrol, but if I were to assume that most installers of LPG tune for maximum performance of the system they are supplying and fitting, and the owner used LPG most of the time, and as we all know there is increased wear on the spark plugs, then I have erred on the side of caution and tried to give the most appropriate answer

"I havn't tried the kit on LPG for comparison, so I can't comment - but I think any improvement would be minimal

Cheers, Barry

Hi wrexed03

Thanks for the info, but his actual question was :-

If i was to install the fuel rail kit, would this cause any trouble?

The answer to that is no - and there would normally be improvement when on petrol, but if I were to assume that most installers of LPG tune for maximum performance of the system they are supplying and fitting, and the owner used LPG most of the time, and as we all know there is increased wear on the spark plugs, then I have erred on the side of caution and tried to give the most appropriate answer

"I havn't tried the kit on LPG for comparison, so I can't comment - but I think any improvement would be minimal

Cheers, Barry

Barry, any chance of an answer to my question? You seem to be avoiding my request totally

So may I then ask, yet again for a picture of the installed system. I am still curious to purchase one and try and also Dyno to once and for all determine any difference if any. I have access to a Dyno but before forking out the $$, like anyone, would like to see what it is I am actually getting

Hi Madmagna

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=934127&postcount=82

I don't actually have a pic ( An AMC member did post one a little while back but with everything being black - and the adapter mounted out of sight - even I couldn't find it - :D )

I would like nothing better than to have Dyno figures, but I believe that the best way to evaluate a street performance system is to do a range of before and after timed runs on the road using realistic driving tecniques (not WOT's ) - Oh - and done safely away from other traffic

This method is suggested by a Jacobs Of Jacobs performance ignition systems IIRC

There's a few systems out there now, so maybe if you go to a meet you could see the system first-hand

Cheers, Barry

I have both, fuel and earthing systems. Minor positive improvements when crusising on low TB opening. Unless your earthings are totally stuffed, it ain't gonna be noticeable in Dyno. In other works, as long as earthing is ok, this kit only makes a small diff. Which is still welcome improvement.
If you don't wanna sepend 100 bux, check and improve (clean) your current earthing and notice a difference. Add-on might make it even better.
But not 1/4 strip material. :cool:

Barry the only issue I have with 'real world' testing is its not a controlled environment. Too many factors to take into account that will affect any sort of testing results.

A Dyno is the most controlled method of testing, especially since there isnt a run-in period with electronics.

Barry the only issue I have with 'real world' testing is its not a controlled environment. Too many factors to take into account that will affect any sort of testing results.

A Dyno is the most controlled method of testing, especially since there isnt a run-in period with electronics.

lmao. A dyno is NOT a controlled method of testing, it's useful, but not 'controlled'. Engine dyno perhaps - in a climate controlled room etc. I've seen dozens of back to back chassis dyno results falling in a range of 2-3% over aanywhere from 3-6 runs. Big difference when trying to evaluate a mod - especially when the dyno is only concerned with wide open throttle full power runs. If you operate in tuning/fixed speed mode then you can easily and quickly see the effects of fueling and timing change at various load settings. But trying to do back to back work is difficult due to varying engine temps, ambient temps (despite the so-called dyno atmospheric adjustments) and I'm yet to see a dyno fan that actually simulates the road speed the car is doing when in 3rd gear at 6000rpm, let alone be actually moving air thru the radiator.

lmao. A dyno is NOT a controlled method of testing, it's useful, but not 'controlled'. Engine dyno perhaps - in a climate controlled room etc. I've seen dozens of back to back chassis dyno results falling in a range of 2-3% over aanywhere from 3-6 runs. Big difference when trying to evaluate a mod - especially when the dyno is only concerned with wide open throttle full power runs. If you operate in tuning/fixed speed mode then you can easily and quickly see the effects of fueling and timing change at various load settings. But trying to do back to back work is difficult due to varying engine temps, ambient temps (despite the so-called dyno atmospheric adjustments) and I'm yet to see a dyno fan that actually simulates the road speed the car is doing when in 3rd gear at 6000rpm, let alone be actually moving air thru the radiator.

Sleeper, eh!!! :doubt:

I so agree, Ezy.
And to add on, cars with fwd facing intake trumpet like mine actually assist in engine fill, speed depending, but not revs.
Barry stuff is not Dyno detectable, toe and a** perhaps only.

lmao. A dyno is NOT a controlled method of testing, it's useful, but not 'controlled'. Engine dyno perhaps - in a climate controlled room etc. I've seen dozens of back to back chassis dyno results falling in a range of 2-3% over aanywhere from 3-6 runs. Big difference when trying to evaluate a mod - especially when the dyno is only concerned with wide open throttle full power runs. If you operate in tuning/fixed speed mode then you can easily and quickly see the effects of fueling and timing change at various load settings. But trying to do back to back work is difficult due to varying engine temps, ambient temps (despite the so-called dyno atmospheric adjustments) and I'm yet to see a dyno fan that actually simulates the road speed the car is doing when in 3rd gear at 6000rpm, let alone be actually moving air thru the radiator.

I do believe I did say the most controlled method of evaluating.....

Not perfect, but a lot better than real world testing by 'feel' and 'i think the auto shifts smoother'

As for the fan's used - not sure how people set them up, however, its actually rather easy to simulate the amount of air that a car would pass through at a certain road speed (and this has little to do at which RPM you do it at).

Killer - as for Barry's mods not being Dyno detectable, why is it that magazine's have tried similar set ups (even on a Magna) and found results? Granted, these earthing kits also came with voltage stabilisers, which, would be the main gain but anywho....moving right along eh....

Barry the only issue I have with 'real world' testing is its not a controlled environment. Too many factors to take into account that will affect any sort of testing results.

A Dyno is the most controlled method of testing, especially since there isnt a run-in period with electronics.

Hi Ers

Thanks for your quality posts - always interesting

If you are excited by having a shootout printout telling you that, say you now have "X" extra horspower, but at the expense of "Y" torque then I am happy for you - we all have our own ideas of what is considered important

You can post the results and share info with like-minded AMCers and achieve good social interaction - and that's how it should be

If however, you are a little more inventive, you could choose to put that hundred dollars or so directly into a kit that has been shown to improve known defficiencies in the Magna 3g engines

One good example of this is the rough idle and torque loss - if you can improve this, you should notice smoother lower rpm and improved hill climbing

This is one design error overlooked by the bean-counters that can't be fixed by cleaning dirty earths, etc. because it simply has not been fitted at the factory


'especially since there isnt a run-in period with electronics'

This is probably where many mods are not fully appreciated - you must evaluate any changes over its natural time frame, because the ECU is a learning/adaptive system

Take for example the flat spot introduced by fitting a hi-flow air filter - this was mostly fixed at the first on-road test by the fuel rail temp tuning kit, yet if you also had droning from a hi-flow muffler/exhaust, the same kit improved it only after around 250 Km AND 40 keystart engine cycles (thanks to another AMC'er who posted that info and whose name I no longer have it was so long ago)

So, am I saying here that you really are not accurately tuning on the dyno unless the ECU can be made to 'see' it over many cycles/hours ? - possibly

or am I suggesting that you may get a better result by first fixing the obvious deficiencies in the sensors and wiring ? - definately

Cheers, Barry

I do believe I did say the most controlled method of evaluating.....

Not perfect, but a lot better than real world testing by 'feel' and 'i think the auto shifts smoother'

As for the fan's used - not sure how people set them up, however, its actually rather easy to simulate the amount of air that a car would pass through at a certain road speed (and this has little to do at which RPM you do it at).

Killer - as for Barry's mods not being Dyno detectable, why is it that magazine's have tried similar set ups (even on a Magna) and found results? Granted, these earthing kits also came with voltage stabilisers, which, would be the main gain but anywho....moving right along eh....

Hi Ers

(this post is out of sequence because I started it before, but sent it after, your post)

Yes, the magazine did measure an increase in power on the dyno, and my own testing showed that a properly designed custom layout achieved a noticeable performance increase, but adding a voltage stabiliser did not give any further noticeable increase


Not perfect, but a lot better than real world testing by 'feel' and 'i think the auto shifts smoother'

In fact, if you have a tiptronic shift, improvements in 'Drive mode' are quite noticeable if you then perform similar gear changes in 'manual mode' and compare

Also, I have read where the ECU in automatic transmissions contains a circuit to retard timing when shifting, in order to prevent 'transmission shock'

Imagine what could happen if that circuit behaved erratically due to to poor or inadquate wiring/earthing

Cheers, Barry

Also, I have read where the ECU in automatic transmissions contains a circuit to retard timing when shifting, in order to prevent 'transmission shock'

Imagine what could happen if that circuit behaved erratically due to to poor or inadquate wiring/earthing

Cheers, Barry

Barry,

Same thing would happen to the auto computer with or without an extra earthing kit. From my somewhat limited knowledge of electrical systems, if the wiring/earth on one circuit is bad, it cant be fixed with an earthing kit that isnt connected to that circuit....I could be wrong.

You know what, instead of just bagging the system out, early next year, when I have some spare time I may just buy one.

I'll do my own testing with two seperate multimeters, before and after installation. If the earthing kit does anything, it should be measureable with a multimeter (I hope no one contends that point).

If anyone can suggest where to measure voltage/resistance and which earthing circuits just post em, pm me etc

Some simple one's that come to mind are:
Battery Earth?
ECU voltage / earth
Auto ECU voltage / earth
Coil voltage
Injectors voltage
MAF?

In relation to the coolant temp sensor, the earth on this is useless as the temp sensor does not rely on earth from the motor unlike the temp guage.

Maf sensor again is useless as it does not rely on an engine or body earth

Magnas do not have a MAP sensor so no use there

TPS does not have an engine earth

Injectors use earth as a trigger from ECU, if you earth the injector, it will remain open.

In short, the only thing that MAY benefit are the heads for the spark plugs, then agian you would then have to earth each individual plug to make any benefit due to the carbon around the plug thread etc

'especially since there isnt a run-in period with electronics'

This is probably where many mods are not fully appreciated - you must evaluate any changes over its natural time frame, because the ECU is a learning/adaptive system

Take for example the flat spot introduced by fitting a hi-flow air filter - this was mostly fixed at the first on-road test by the fuel rail temp tuning kit, yet if you also had droning from a hi-flow muffler/exhaust, the same kit improved it only after around 250 Km AND 40 keystart engine cycles (thanks to another AMC'er who posted that info and whose name I no longer have it was so long ago)

So, am I saying here that you really are not accurately tuning on the dyno unless the ECU can be made to 'see' it over many cycles/hours ? - possibly

or am I suggesting that you may get a better result by first fixing the obvious deficiencies in the sensors and wiring ? - definately

Cheers, Barry

Bingo. This is the sort of hardship I/we (bj31os, chisholm) had with doing back to back dyno stuff - especially when the SF manifold was on the car for the 1st run, then removed for the 2nd run.

I have taken my SF (proto 3) off and returned to stock in preparation for final dyno work and initially there was NO noticable change whatsoever when I changed back to stock. I did comment at the time that it would take about 1wk for the ECU start/run average to finally cancel out all the good work done by having the SF on and guess what? It has finally happened and I nearly got flattened!!

The car is doughy, nothing happens at full pedal mash until 3500 arrives, the joy is not-so-joyful, and equally shortlived. I pulled out towards newcastle from the Metford tafe turn and nearly copped it. I got a highbeam and fingering (not what you think :roll: ) from the Liberty driver who I thought from previous experience would never run me down. :redface: Poo happens.

Can't wait for dyno work to be over with.

As for the fan's used - not sure how people set them up, however, its actually rather easy to simulate the amount of air that a car would pass through at a certain road speed (and this has little to do at which RPM you do it at).

Killer - as for Barry's mods not being Dyno detectable, why is it that magazine's have tried similar set ups (even on a Magna) and found results? Granted, these earthing kits also came with voltage stabilisers, which, would be the main gain but anywho....moving right along eh....

Car speed and RPM are 2 diff variables. Same speed requires more air when on low gear (say 1. vs 4.). 20ms-1 speed requires ruffly same 20m speed of air from a fan to simulate the flow.

Got those Dyno readings handy? Or shall we wait for yours?

My ORT: car is able to pull slight uphill on 4. at ~1300 RPM (with nice rumble) when it wasn't able to do so before kits, but changed down.
Satisfactory ORT for me. :cool:

Barry,

Same thing would happen to the auto computer with or without an extra earthing kit. From my somewhat limited knowledge of electrical systems, if the wiring/earth on one circuit is bad, it cant be fixed with an earthing kit that isnt connected to that circuit....I could be wrong.

You know what, instead of just bagging the system out, early next year, when I have some spare time I may just buy one.

I'll do my own testing with two seperate multimeters, before and after installation. If the earthing kit does anything, it should be measureable with a multimeter (I hope no one contends that point).

If anyone can suggest where to measure voltage and which earthing circuits just post em, pm me etc

Some simple one's that come to mind are:
Battery Earth?
ECU voltage / earth
Auto ECU voltage / earth
Coil voltage
Injectors voltage
MAF?


Ah-Ha!

"You know what, instead of just bagging the system out..."

I thought that's what you were doing! lol

Only for valid reasons Barry.....

Without reading a book on ECU's (regarding an ECU only making full use of an improvement over time) things like voltages are rather easy to test, either it changes or it doesnt.

So I'll install a kit, with photo's of before and after, and of the testing, before and after.

So I'll leave this thread be until jan/feb.

Only for valid reasons Barry.....

Without reading a book on ECU's (regarding an ECU only making full use of an improvement over time) things like voltages are rather easy to test, either it changes or it doesnt.

So I'll install a kit, with photo's of before and after, and of the testing, before and after.

So I'll leave this thread be until jan/feb.


WHAT THE ?

Sorry, but there are NO valid reasons here

If, there were significant numbers of kits that didn't perform to expectations, then that would be cause for assessment, but all kits HAVE performed well - brighter lights, smoother idle, increased torque, reduced soot, less droning are the most common features

So what you are doing is trying to find fault in something that dosn't have any faults

The kit FIXES the faults in the car

With your admitted basic knowledge of electrical systems, I think the only thing you will end up doing is proving the old adage that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...no offence

We will see Barry.

Now, considering you and others have claimed you cant test a kit like this on a dyno, its interesting that you claim increased torque - chuck a car on before and after and show me the data :)

I will gladly pay for this kit, and test the light, ecu, auto computer/solenoid, ignition and fuel system circuits to find any change in the resistance, if its there I'll gladly post the results, hell I'll even do a write up on how great these are :)

The main issue I have with kits like these is rather simple, if you maintained your earths in the first place, a kit like this would not have any 'gain'. Its what I call a band-aid fix, instead of cleaning the factory earths, this is strapped on to mask the 'problem'.

As a general question due to my lack of knowledge, how does this earthing kit reduce droning?

Simple Dyno solution.

Reset the ECU, idle the car for 20 mins to relearn as per the manual. Do say 3 or 5 runs and pick the best out of 5

Do the mod, reset, relearn and best out of 5

Again, if your factory earths are ok, there should be little difference. Magna's are actually very well earthed and again most sensors etc do not rely on an engine earth to begin with

We will see Barry.

Now, considering you and others have claimed you cant test a kit like this on a dyno, its interesting that you claim increased torque - chuck a car on before and after and show me the data :)

I will gladly pay for this kit, and test the light, ecu, auto computer/solenoid, ignition and fuel system circuits to find any change in the resistance, if its there I'll gladly post the results, hell I'll even do a write up on how great these are :)

The main issue I have with kits like these is rather simple, if you maintained your earths in the first place, a kit like this would not have any 'gain'. Its what I call a band-aid fix, instead of cleaning the factory earths, this is strapped on to mask the 'problem'.

As a general question due to my lack of knowledge, how does this earthing kit reduce droning?

Mmm...I think some of the members more experienced with Dyno tuning say that when tuning at WOT it gives an indication of comparative performance say, at the quarter, but as I have always said I believe in improving driveability and torque response which is noticeable just by driving on the street - and it's free!

As I have posted before, you will probably NOT get any meaningful readings by measuring resistance, this should only be used in dc circuits that do not have any AC component

ECU's contain a high frequency chip, whose current has to be supplied via it's earth, and the earthing in Magnas is not able to produce the required capacity for best performance

If you are after meaningful results, I ask you now, to clean and identify all your earths and measure the resistance before and after and you tell us what you have found in your opinion

Oh - and could you also give full details on all and any mods in your sig

Barry - simple questions, and yet you cant answer them.

Droning - how is this reduced by an earthing kit?

As for the ECU, yes, the ECU relies on its own earth, which for the current it draws is far beyond adequate. It also has its own internal power supply, which I presume would filter any voltage drops/dips/spikes/noise.

So basically, kits like these work - just cant be tested via a dyno (even though they increase torque), cant be tested electronically, and defy just about every means of being tested......

My mods - simple, 97 Magna, stock apart fom the sound sytem (which has a theoretical draw of 140amps). My lights dont dim, my idle is smooth, and my auto shifts great.....the only earth to be upgraded is the (-) to body earth. The rest havnt even been cleaned.

Simple Dyno solution.

Reset the ECU, idle the car for 20 mins to relearn as per the manual. Do say 3 or 5 runs and pick the best out of 5

Do the mod, reset, relearn and best out of 5

Again, if your factory earths are ok, there should be little difference. Magna's are actually very well earthed and again most sensors etc do not rely on an engine earth to begin with

As a long-term admirer of the mechanical advice you give on this forum, I have to disagree that

"Magna's are actually very well earthed"

Can you please point out just how you arrive at that conclusion

regards

Barry - simple questions, and yet you cant answer them.

Droning - how is this reduced by an earthing kit?

Well, first you have to have a muffler that drones :) then it's a matter of improving the efficiency and combustion timing using the kit, and then you should find that the droning is largely dependent on throttle opening (the smaller the better - especially with auto Tx's)
The fuel rail tuning kit is also effective here

As for the ECU, yes, the ECU relies on its own earth, which for the current it draws is far beyond adequate. It also has its own internal power supply, which I presume would filter any voltage drops/dips/spikes/noise.

Are you quoting info specifically about Magna's here, or is it general theory from a text book?

So basically, kits like these work - just cant be tested via a dyno (even though they increase torque), cant be tested electronically, and defy just about every means of being tested......

Very early on I had the fuel rail tuning kit independently tested with a before and after result using a fuel mixture display, and it clearly showed an increase in fuel delivery similar to an accelerator pump
The electrical earthing kit works in a similar way, by improving fuel delivery on demand

My mods - simple, 97 Magna, stock apart fom the sound sytem (which has a theoretical draw of 140amps). My lights dont dim, my idle is smooth, and my auto shifts great.....the only earth to be upgraded is the (-) to body earth. The rest havnt even been cleaned.Do you have the 3.5L motor with EGR?

Barry - 1997 Magna's only came in 3lt IIRC. Only cars to see the EGR are the Verada's. Mine is an Advance.

Now, I could be wrong - but an exhaust usually drones due to an incorrectly designed exhaust system, this is to do more so with the resonant frequency of an exhaust, and not the throttle opening. This can be overcome by correct diameter exhaust, resonators, balance pipes (true dual exhaust systems, such as in V8's). This has little to do with the throttle opening.

ANY pipe will have a resonant frequency, the problem with aftermarket exhausts is this is not taken into account, and mostly out of the scope of exhaust shops to design an exhaust with an Re outside that of normal driving RPM.

That aside - I'de love to know how an earthing kit changes the Re characteristics of a piece of pipe....

As for ECU's - part general theory, part experience on helping install ECU's. ECU's (correct me if im wrong) run at 5V to prevent them from working ineffectively due to the varying voltage that can be supplied by the alternator. Now, once again I could be wrong, but this can be done internally through hardware. This is done to make sure the ECU can work in either a flat voltage rate (say the most common of 5V) or in some may even work in a range from 5-20V. Software algorithms are then used to prevent electrical noise from interfering with ECU operation.

I was not commenting on the fuel rail kit - I was commenting soley on the earthing kits.

As for Magna's being pretty well earthed, have you got anything to say the contrary? Are the cable's undersized for the amp's? From all the earth's I've looked at on my car, it seems rather adequate for the amount of amps a circuit will draw....

Now, I could be wrong - but an exhaust usually drones due to an incorrectly designed exhaust system, this is to do more so with the resonant frequency of an exhaust, and not the throttle opening. This can be overcome by correct diameter exhaust, resonators, balance pipes (true dual exhaust systems, such as in V8's). This has little to do with the throttle opening.

ANY pipe will have a resonant frequency, the problem with aftermarket exhausts is this is not taken into account, and mostly out of the scope of exhaust shops to design an exhaust with an Re outside that of normal driving RPM.

That aside - I'de love to know how an earthing kit changes the Re characteristics of a piece of pipe....

Not really part of this delicious debate, but u're totally corrrect there. Unfortunately in Magna donk that freg is 1800-2000 RPM, the most used RPM range. Mine purrs at 3000,no drone. :cool:
Guess what he means is the fuel burn is more efficient hence less noise. I never noticed and diff. One can only hear min delta 3db anyway.

ERS just buy a kit and try it. If it doesnt do anything for you im sure barry would be happy to take it back. (Barry your call on thiss..)
This topic has been done to death over and over again.
There are some happy people with the kit on this forum some may be undecided and some may have noticed jack.
This thread can go forever over the pros and cons....

regards

Barry - 1997 Magna's only came in 3lt IIRC. Only cars to see the EGR are the Verada's. Mine is an Advance.

Now, I could be wrong - but an exhaust usually drones due to an incorrectly designed exhaust system, this is to do more so with the resonant frequency of an exhaust, and not the throttle opening. This can be overcome by correct diameter exhaust, resonators, balance pipes (true dual exhaust systems, such as in V8's). This has little to do with the throttle opening.

ANY pipe will have a resonant frequency, the problem with aftermarket exhausts is this is not taken into account, and mostly out of the scope of exhaust shops to design an exhaust with an Re outside that of normal driving RPM.

That aside - I'de love to know how an earthing kit changes the Re characteristics of a piece of pipe....

As for ECU's - part general theory, part experience on helping install ECU's. ECU's (correct me if im wrong) run at 5V to prevent them from working ineffectively due to the varying voltage that can be supplied by the alternator. Now, once again I could be wrong, but this can be done internally through hardware. This is done to make sure the ECU can work in either a flat voltage rate (say the most common of 5V) or in some may even work in a range from 5-20V. Software algorithms are then used to prevent electrical noise from interfering with ECU operation.

I was not commenting on the fuel rail kit - I was commenting soley on the earthing kits.

As for Magna's being pretty well earthed, have you got anything to say the contrary? Are the cable's undersized for the amp's? From all the earth's I've looked at on my car, it seems rather adequate for the amount of amps a circuit will draw....


Good, now that you are aware that your profile is incorrect could you please change it as a common courtesy to members - saves time and helps accuracy

Regarding the droning exhaust, it usually happens when a (correctly designed) hi-flow muffler is fitted - why would magnas be made so badly as to need those major additions that you say - doesn't seem possible

The earthing doesn't change...the pipe, it enhances the combustion to remove the cause of the drone at it's source

I don't believe that all the complicated explanation about ECU's is necessarily relevant - its more to do with that 5V was chosen as it's just below the lowest likely voltage for a battery to reach when operating under extreme conditions eg when starting in cold climates, etc for the ECU to keep operating

For the comment about the earthing, I would prefer Madmagna to answer his own statement, as he is a qualified mechanic

Barry, re: drone:

http://www.darklair.com/monte/exhaust.drone.html

As for ECU's, could it be that the ECU feeds 5V to sensors, and at 5V its a lot less likely for a voltage drop to harm the ECU operation rather than say, 10V?

Barry, re: drone:

http://www.darklair.com/monte/exhaust.drone.html

As for ECU's, could it be that the ECU feeds 5V to sensors, and at 5V its a lot less likely for a voltage drop to harm the ECU operation rather than say, 10V?


Drone?

Unfortunately, you have found a poor site reference

If you read carefully, you'll note the author has 'drone' as the heading, but from then on, he refers only to 'resonance'

Resonance can be fairly easily tuned out by changing wavelengths, but not 'drone'

The 'drone' in a Magna stock muffler is very low due to the tri-flow design, but when you replace it with a hi-flow type muffler, you often get a very unpleasant tone that extends across most of the rev range and usually gets louder with increased load or higher acceleration (larger throttle opening)

Drone in automatics Tx's are usually more noticeable than manual Tx's

This drone in a Magna 3rd Gen can largely be removed by fitting the fuel rail temp tuning kit, which gives a more complete burn, or the electrical earthing kit which improves the combustion timing and allows smaller throttle openings

He's probably never even seen a Magna, anyway :confused:

ECU

I think the last half of your question is about right, and similar to what I have said

Profile - surely you can do a bit better than give just minimum details :doubt:

Barry - do you have a thread of the mods you do (or send to ppl) .... what they do exactly .... and how much they cost. i can only see bits and pieces u should make them all in 1 easy to understand and read post, or if u have 1 and im just terrible at the seach button can some1 link to me

Barry - do you have a thread of the mods you do (or send to ppl) .... what they do exactly .... and how much they cost. i can only see bits and pieces u should make them all in 1 easy to understand and read post, or if u have 1 and im just terrible at the seach button can some1 link to me

Hi mate
Yes, I will post up something meaningful as soon as practicable

Cheers

The 'drone' in a Magna stock muffler is very low due to the tri-flow design, but when you replace it with a hi-flow type muffler, you often get a very unpleasant tone that extends across most of the rev range and usually gets louder with increased load or higher acceleration (larger throttle opening)

Drone in automatics Tx's are usually more noticeable than manual Tx's

This drone in a Magna 3rd Gen can largely be removed by fitting the fuel rail temp tuning kit, which gives a more complete burn, or the electrical earthing kit which improves the combustion timing and allows smaller throttle openings


Ammmhhhh..... yeah. Existing reverberation (hey, new word to equation! :) ) is more audiable with non std mufflers, due to lesser silencing. End of story!
Go and listen to a std Magna sound, it's (drone etc) there.... I can hear it, but then again, I have "wonder" analytical hearing. Surprising feature, really :cool:
Remove the std muffler and BINGO the world shakes. Hint, temporarily extend the pipe out so it doesn't ram in to the subfloor and so forth. Inform me accordingly of the progress with this clinical trial/experiment.

I could comment on the other points in your selected post, but that would take hours.... driving habit and gear selection and torque converter functions on each autobox, TB opening etc all affect the end noise more than other mentioned issues.

Also - unless im reading this wrong - alloy has a lower resistance than iron...

aluminum 26.5 ρ (nΩ·m)
iron 96.1 ρ (nΩ·m)

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/electricity/resistance/

This thread has been a really interesting read...

but um.. since when does "alloy" = "Aluminium"??

Who the hell makes an aluminium engine?? the term "alloy" (even wikipedia gets this right):

"An alloy is a partial or complete solid solution of one or more elements in a metallic matrix. Complete solid solution alloys give single solid phase microstructure, while partial solutions give two or more phases that may be homogeneous in distribution depending on thermal (heat treatment) history. Alloys usually have different properties from those of the component elements."


In simple terms it's a mix of metals... i'd like to see an aluminium engine.. picture this.. an engine made of coke cans :nuts:




But anyways obviously different things work for different cars.. perfect example is the K&N panel filter already mentioned.. other cars i've dyno tested on it gives all-roun gains (mainly 4cy) but on 6cyl V configs it looses bottom end.

No one here who hasn't really tried something can really say in a matter of fact way wether it works or not, i mean some of the stuff you guys come up with here like these kits i can tell you won't do jack for other cars but work on a 6G.

Example, Earthing kits:
- I've tried this on a few cars of varying years and it works better on older cars, not because you actually get gains but you recover lost power from said corrosion, etc.. and on Newer cars it doesn't do jack... yet on cars such as Honda's where it has 40,000 sensors, additional earthing is proven beneficial. This is the reason no sane person uses piggyback/interceptor ecu's on honda's because the state of tune is only as good as the sensor since the signal is intercepted and will degrade with the sensor signal quality. For those who don't understand, let's talk about basic Air fuel ratios read from only the o2 sensor, if it reads x amount voltage, injector pulse width = y%. so to correct this i'm going to add +-z% on top of y%
Testing on earthing has been performed on an electrical oscillator which my mech had, but i'll admit the GENUINE Raizin volt stabilizer possibly made more differenc ein the reduction of spikes... it's just a regulated capacitor system similar to the capacitors you add to audio systems.

- Fuel rail kit...i can see this working on this car based on the theory but i can see it not working on other cars... same reason why some cars respond better to silky smooth intake runners and why some atomise better with rough intake plenums. What hasn't been mentioned which I will assume is that by heating up the fuel rail your also increasing the fuel pressure a small amount due to heat expansion...

- Gasket kit.. yes this also works for some cars and some not. It is dependent on material type, thickness and heat transfer properties and how complete the whole intake cooling system is. My definition of a complete 'cooling kit' are thhese heat gaskets for plenum, throttlebody, and anything else attached to the plenum (some cars have idle controls attached as a unit to the plenum), throttlebody bypass and a cold air intake... but then theres variables to the CAI, some cars respond better to a short intake despite engine heat and yes i have tested this on 3 different 4cyl engines.

The gasket kit that really worked for me in the past were made by these people:
http://www.outlawengineering.com/index.html#
They had one thing that no other kits to this day have, which are the spacers for the bolts as well as the extended bolts... this is because heat also transfered from the head to the bolts and back onto the plenum.

Barry, if you were willing to make thin rings to go onto the bolt as a washer without requiring longer bolts then your kit will be a winner and well above the rest!




You can all argue that manufacturers spent millions and trillions blah blah and done this from the factory, but you all forget restrictions in emissions get stricter by the year, theres budget, theres ADR compliance hence why some performance Jap cars have more power than their Aussie equivalent... good example, the S15 Spec R Jap and Aussie spec... look at the performance gains on a 350Z by just changing the catback, on most cars catbacks do jack all, but in this case it was purpose built restriction to pass Aussie emissions and ADR compliance. Changing a muffler on most cars will do jackall for power.. yet it provides a difference to the Magna.

I bet most of you have never driven a wide plethora of cars or had the pleasure of doing work on cars beyond a Magna/380 or even a V6 config or even know how to do the most basic of mods.


but remember this:
"Do not condemn a product until you yourself have tried it, but then if more than 10 'pros' have tried it and it sucked then I would take their advice".. but honestly, how many of you consider yourselves 'pros' and to what extent?? I have 69 posts to my name in this forum/club, have had a magna for 2months and only been a member for 2months... what do you think does this make me a total noob to cars or simply what you people call a 'magnoob'?

:stoopid: Who was that masked man?

Well spoken, give that man a beer!

LOL what a threadmine! But sensible stuff all the same :)

are these kits worth getting????

This thread has been a really interesting read...
I bet most of you have never driven a wide plethora of cars or had the pleasure of doing work on cars beyond a Magna/380 or even a V6 config or even know how to do the most basic of mods

I'd say there's quite a few guys on this forum that have been around cars for a long time and have done many mods.

Very thought out post, an enjoyable read and agree with most of what you're saying.

^^^lol nice.

All I was getting was that some people who posted in the thread didn't sound like they understood the full of extent of what they were SUGGESTING. Not that it did not make sense but different things work differently on different cars and I'm willing to give Barry a go (as soon as he replies to my PM :p )

I'll be the first to admit that some things i've read in this forum proven to work for the Magna/380/6G engine is quite opposite to what you'd experience on other cars... specifically the K&N panel and muffler change.

Conventional Wisdom/Logic for one vehicle is not the same for another....

i belive the people who fit it get better idle from their vehicle as you have to disconnect the negative terminal, therefore resetting the ECU and TCU which always smooths up the idle and makes the auto shift smoother (well it does for me). i fitted various earths and tried a few positions with no change. as for the fuel rail, i think mitsi use the spacers they do to isolate the rail from heat and avoid the gas vaporising.

i belive the people who fit it get better idle from their vehicle as you have to disconnect the negative terminal, therefore resetting the ECU and TCU which always smooths up the idle and makes the auto shift smother (well it does for me)

That could be a factor.. i'm pretty sure my owners manual suggests that too but only for the 5spd tippy 'sportronic' that apparently learns your driving style... therefore its a void issue for people with the 4spd auto or manual.

I know mine downshifts at will at only part throttle now after i reset because i know the previous owner babied the car.


But again that is irrelevant to the earthing kit as it provides other benefits than just that.


Heres another way to look at it, even if your car is in perfect condition and the earthing kit did nothing, think of it as a preventative measure.. something to prolong the quality of the earthing before it gets to the extent where you lose power. Like I said previously, the earthing kit isn't really classified as a power adder, but rather something that recovers power that is lost over time.

If theres one thing I read in Hot4s back when i was in high school years ago that actually made sense was that, "Before adding power adding modifications to the car, fix all the problems that reduce the power" and there are many from the factory simply because of emissions laws... I'd get rid of the EGR if I could legally

Manufacturers could have put an oil catch can in every car if they could instead of the PCV valve system... but over 90% of drivers don't give a shit about the technicalities of the engine to be bothered emptying it all the time hence the pcv valve system was used to recycle shitty blow-by back into the combustion chamber.. at the end of the day even if you own a VRX (i do) face reality that it's still a family car

Totally agree, and to be honest i found NO diiference when fitting the K&N on the Verada, but have had exceptional results in other applications where the intake was heavily restricted to pass ADR's.

Some cars respond well to some basic mods, where other require a boot full of cash to be spent on them.

In essence your logic is flawless.

That could be a factor.. i'm pretty sure my owners manual suggests that too but only for the 5spd tippy 'sportronic' that apparently learns your driving style... therefore its a void issue for people with the 4spd auto or manual.



The 4sp auto (standard and tiptronic) both are early variants of the 5sp auto and all utilise INVECS-II Fuzzy Logic to adapt to the driving style.

yeah as above the 4 spd learns driving style too, and it adapts to different driving styles very quickly so you should not have any habits of the old owner still present in the auto of your VRX dsp26, do you like the way it works? i love it! like it will change down when i come to a hill without even pressing the gas more, and will hold a gear (say 3rd) on a hill even if i back off the gas a bit (last auto i had would hit 4th as soon as i lifted off, drove me mad!) and just picks the right gear really well, in my opinion. I agree with all you say, just use my experience of fiddling with the earths to give my opinion ( i did leave the extra earths i ran in place, just in case :happy:). oh and i do drive alot of cars and do all my own repairs (done big end rebuilds, head gaskets etc on many cars) just so ya know im not a carnoob!!! ha ha good to have you here dsp26, welcome. oh and im in NewZealand so no EGR, and my cat converter is long gone as is rear muffler :-) :mits:

Are these kits still available.......i want them !!!

Where are the photo's?
Somebody must have some pic's of these kits?:hmm:

Where are the photo's?
Somebody must have some pic's of these kits?:hmm:

The earthing kit are a few bits of wire with terminals on the end (use your imagination there)

The fuel rail spacers, well, hollow bits of metal.....They look like donuts...

This thread has been a really interesting read...

but um.. since when does "alloy" = "Aluminium"??

Who the hell makes an aluminium engine?? the term "alloy" (even wikipedia gets this right):

"An alloy is a partial or complete solid solution of one or more elements in a metallic matrix. Complete solid solution alloys give single solid phase microstructure, while partial solutions give two or more phases that may be homogeneous in distribution depending on thermal (heat treatment) history. Alloys usually have different properties from those of the component elements."


In simple terms it's a mix of metals... i'd like to see an aluminium engine.. picture this.. an engine made of coke cans :nuts:




But anyways obviously different things work for different cars.. perfect example is the K&N panel filter already mentioned.. other cars i've dyno tested on it gives all-roun gains (mainly 4cy) but on 6cyl V configs it looses bottom end.

No one here who hasn't really tried something can really say in a matter of fact way wether it works or not, i mean some of the stuff you guys come up with here like these kits i can tell you won't do jack for other cars but work on a 6G.

Example, Earthing kits:
- I've tried this on a few cars of varying years and it works better on older cars, not because you actually get gains but you recover lost power from said corrosion, etc.. and on Newer cars it doesn't do jack... yet on cars such as Honda's where it has 40,000 sensors, additional earthing is proven beneficial. This is the reason no sane person uses piggyback/interceptor ecu's on honda's because the state of tune is only as good as the sensor since the signal is intercepted and will degrade with the sensor signal quality. For those who don't understand, let's talk about basic Air fuel ratios read from only the o2 sensor, if it reads x amount voltage, injector pulse width = y%. so to correct this i'm going to add +-z% on top of y%
Testing on earthing has been performed on an electrical oscillator which my mech had, but i'll admit the GENUINE Raizin volt stabilizer possibly made more differenc ein the reduction of spikes... it's just a regulated capacitor system similar to the capacitors you add to audio systems.

- Fuel rail kit...i can see this working on this car based on the theory but i can see it not working on other cars... same reason why some cars respond better to silky smooth intake runners and why some atomise better with rough intake plenums. What hasn't been mentioned which I will assume is that by heating up the fuel rail your also increasing the fuel pressure a small amount due to heat expansion...

- Gasket kit.. yes this also works for some cars and some not. It is dependent on material type, thickness and heat transfer properties and how complete the whole intake cooling system is. My definition of a complete 'cooling kit' are thhese heat gaskets for plenum, throttlebody, and anything else attached to the plenum (some cars have idle controls attached as a unit to the plenum), throttlebody bypass and a cold air intake... but then theres variables to the CAI, some cars respond better to a short intake despite engine heat and yes i have tested this on 3 different 4cyl engines.

The gasket kit that really worked for me in the past were made by these people:
http://www.outlawengineering.com/index.html#
They had one thing that no other kits to this day have, which are the spacers for the bolts as well as the extended bolts... this is because heat also transfered from the head to the bolts and back onto the plenum.

Barry, if you were willing to make thin rings to go onto the bolt as a washer without requiring longer bolts then your kit will be a winner and well above the rest!




You can all argue that manufacturers spent millions and trillions blah blah and done this from the factory, but you all forget restrictions in emissions get stricter by the year, theres budget, theres ADR compliance hence why some performance Jap cars have more power than their Aussie equivalent... good example, the S15 Spec R Jap and Aussie spec... look at the performance gains on a 350Z by just changing the catback, on most cars catbacks do jack all, but in this case it was purpose built restriction to pass Aussie emissions and ADR compliance. Changing a muffler on most cars will do jackall for power.. yet it provides a difference to the Magna.

I bet most of you have never driven a wide plethora of cars or had the pleasure of doing work on cars beyond a Magna/380 or even a V6 config or even know how to do the most basic of mods.


but remember this:
"Do not condemn a product until you yourself have tried it, but then if more than 10 'pros' have tried it and it sucked then I would take their advice".. but honestly, how many of you consider yourselves 'pros' and to what extent?? I have 69 posts to my name in this forum/club, have had a magna for 2months and only been a member for 2months... what do you think does this make me a total noob to cars or simply what you people call a 'magnoob'?


OK when you come to a meet I am so buying you a beer

ok. Will wrapping an extended version of the tb coolant hose around the fuel rails do the same things as the barry fuel mod? Obviously using some kind of material with good heat transfer for piping

I wanna know if Ers ever fitted one like he said he would.

I have one of the fuel rail kits here, the person who took them off noticed NO difference at all except harder to start on hot days and initial lag in throttle response due to the fuel boiling in the rails while at stand still.

Again, while I will not totally dismiss these, anyone willing to throw a car on a dyno and see if there is any difference at all, even the smallest difference will show up on a dyno

As I have stated prior, Magna engines have good earthing unlike say my old Falcon which was atrocious when they were made, the fuel flows fast through the rail and personally I like cooler dense fuel than hot fuel which unless the car is stationary will not really heat up anyway.

Gaskets, well you are still using steel bolts??? these transfer heat last time I checked. The air flows fast enough though the system not to really matter and the heat soak in the bay will heat up the manifolds sooner or later to the same extent as it would but just take a little longer

I agree with Mal here, like i said i think mitsi use the spacers they do to isolate the rail from the engine and avoid the fuel vaporising. Isnt this a problem called vapor lock?? and with the magna bonnets been sound deadened the heat gets trapped under the bonnet and the intake gets very hot. the lower intake manifold is directly above the valley of the engine and soaks up all the heat that rises from this region, regardless of gasket material. I still think gains are from the battery disconnection and resetting of ECU and TCU that occurs. but if the buyers are happy then well great!! thats what matters, but it still makes for an interesting and thought provoking discussion, which is good for all!!

MadMagna: I completely agree about the heat gaskets and bolts. Testing on trackday with a B16 motor still showed temperature increases to the point you can't really hold the plenum because your right, heat transferred through the bolts and everything else that was connected the plenum such as the throttlebody warmer and idle air control valve. Outlaw engineering however, makes kits to completely eliminate heat soaking parts which included the washers for the other side of the bolts as well as all attached equipment... without doing actual temp tests like they did the performance and heat was reduced that the plenum was only warm. This is why i'm hoping Barry can complete the kits with those additional bolt rings as they help that much.

As for the fuel rail heater, i still don't think it works the way it's described.. it obviously raises fuel pressure due to heat expansion and even RPW insist in one of their articles that adding an AFPR and increasing fuel pressure a tad (making it more rich) will provide more power to the v6. This is generally against the conventional logic on naturally aspirated's that closer to stoichiometric provides more power (on my sr20 made more power lean, on my b16 made more power na around 12.5:1, on the 4age20v around 13.5:1)

Now based on some knowledgeable comments here.. it does make sense that expanded fuel will have less energy in it... but since 6G74's don't have a knock sensor for the ecu to dynamically adjust igntion advance/retard to utilise 98oct petrol maybe that's when that can come in... provide the same amount of energy before in a less denser fuel.

My limited searches of the tech forum regarding fuel consumption leads me to summarise this for the 6G engine:
- Standard 91/92oct unleaded is for narmal use
- 95/96oct provides additional mileage but no response or power gains
- 98oct provides no additional gains of any kind over 95/96oct
- E10 ethanol blend (which is generally 93-95oct) provides noticable response/power/mileage loss and I too have experienced this.

If what you guys say is actually happening, heated/expanded fuel provides less energy than unheated for the same volume (which makes perfect sense) then maybe people need to start using 95/98oct to recover the lost energy... still won't provide additional power but at least the kit will provide the fuel economy gains with the previously pointless 98oct.


***EDIT***
i've never worked on old carby cars pre-1980's, but back in those days where there were no ecu's, tweaks were done mechanically... not having a knock sensor for ignition timing purposes is one of those setbacks possibly to save cost since the engine runs considerably safe on the 9.3:1CR under factory testing... but this maybe an imposed limit that can be bypassed mechanically... it's essentially the same as using an interceptor/piggyback type ecu... your just tricking ecu signals. for all we know running heated 91/92oct may provide the same energy as 89oct


Heres the funny thing though.. i'm in a completely neutral position about these kits right now but i know if i were to even suggest these to every single automotive forum/club i'm a member of and i would lose all credibility as it does sound like snake oil.

Things really need to be tested and investigated to the fullest for each individual application. The Pulstar Pulse Plugs was a good example i dyno tested... it works but it doesn't... versus ngk iridiums, using the pulse plugs had the exact dyno curve effect of simply advancing the distributor because the flame kernel according to their diagram expands faster, essentially advancing ignition timing... which is why i'd only probably recoomend it to cars with coil packs. (the result of ignition advance on my b16 as well as pulse plugs = mid-top end curve gains with loss in low-mid)

My fuel economy on 95/98 is far better than E10 and 91.

I wanna know if Ers ever fitted one like he said he would.

No I did not, not sure if its in this thread, or somewhere else.

Long story short, I enquired as to how exactly these earthing kits improve the electrical system. To which Barry replied you cant test how it improves an electrical system (words to that effect....not an exact quote).

To which I laughed, and knew he was selling snakes oil.

Electrical systems can be tested, in the most basic form you can test resistance and volts. Quite simple to do.

I was more than happy to spend a weekend doing the tests on various circuits, taking pictures etc - and was told that its impossible to test.

Impossible to test = placebo.

EDIT: as for putting a car on a dyno - a 1% variation in hp DOES NOT EQUAL any performance upgrade. Dyno's can vary in power between runs, 1-2% IIRC. So no, 'gaining' 2hp on a VRX like in an article does not constitute a performance upgrade of any sort.

After running a few tanks of e10 I find the economy not only really good but so is the power. Running e10 uses slightly more fuel than 91/92, but with the added power that I've noticed over 91/92, and considering that its slightly cheaper than 91/92, it seems the logical choice. Even though it might use slightly more fuel than 95, its still cheaper due to the cheaper initial cost. The Magna's are perfectly fine to run on e10 and ethanol is good at keeping the fuel system clean (apparently) and keeping the carbon build-up down :)

As far as Barry's mods go, I find them very useful and yes, they do help!

After running a few tanks of e10 I find the economy not only really good but so is the power. Running e10 uses slightly more fuel than 91/92, but with the added power that I've noticed over 91/92, and considering that its slightly cheaper than 91/92, it seems the logical choice. Even though it might use slightly more fuel than 95, its still cheaper due to the cheaper initial cost. The Magna's are perfectly fine to run on e10 and ethanol is good at keeping the fuel system clean (apparently) and keeping the carbon build-up down :)

As far as Barry's mods go, I find them very useful and yes, they do help!

I ran 2 tanks of E10 and found economy was far worse (talking 100kms to a tank) and power was way down, initial take off felt very sluggish.

I've found 95 to be the best, not really any power increase but I got 50-75kms extra a tank, however I haven't worked out whether the extra kms are worth the extra cost yet. Felt no difference between 95/98.

As for the Barry mods, not sure on the fuel rail kit, but the earthing kit definitely has merit, and while i don't plan to buy Barrys, I plan to do my own using gear from Jaycar. There is definitely benefits in doing an earthing kit if you have a stereo with some decent specs.

M4DDOG - My audio system runs around 750wrms. No need for an earthing kit, a good battery - upgraded earth from Battery - Body, and the system runs perfect even at idle.

Here:


Couple of comments on the article.

There is *NO* way that tiny earth braid is the only thing grounding the engine to the body of that Cuore. Perhaps that's the only earth they could find!

The cross sectional area of that braid is small, maybe 20-30A capacity - no way that will handle the starter.
There must be an additional earth conductor for the starter motor current, hidden from view.

To even imply that the role of engine mounts could be to ground the engine is ludicrous.

Electrolysis?!? Where is the current path that the earthing kits stop? (radiators are rubber mounted for this reason).

Earth points - toyota earth points primarily connect on the thread, and not on the face (which is always painted on the body). If you look at an earthing bolt for a toyota you will notice a good proportion of the thread is "squashed" to enlarge it so it engages the thread in the body with a lot of pressure, giving a good current path - some people interpret such bolts as damaged and discard them.

"Battery negative is best earthing terminal"... When the engine is not running, yes, when the engine is running the alternator ground is more important - the alt supplies the power to everything (including the battery) when the engine is running - so your extra cables maybe should run to BOTH the battery and alternator housing.

"earthing kit may have been responsible for a 1kW gain" 2%... a 1kW difference on a dyno is insignificant..

3-4kw on a circa 300kw engine (on the graph).. 1% also insignificant.. so you'll get an extra 1.5kW The only thing I can think of is better spark - thoughts?



Back to reality..
The IS200 has three ground straps (an RS200 should be no different). One carries the bulk of the starter motor current during cranking, 2nd back of the head, 3rd extension housing of gearbox. However while the engine is running, you have this massive ground connection that is used well below its capacity - the starter isn't running. Starter motors can draw up to 400A at first hit and about 140A (measured on a 4AGE) continuous (in theory a 1kW starter would draw 83Amps).

When the engine is running, the things potentially operating through the starter ground strap (and the other two ground straps, in lesser amounts) are the alternator, the coil pack currents, injector currents, ECU power supply current, all the VSVs, oxygen sensor heaters, auto box solenoids and engine control related currents (except fuel pump) (hope I've remembered them all).

The ingitors/coils and injectors run off a 20A fuse - the maximum current that can flow from this circuit through the ground strap will be 20A.
The EFI fuse is 20A but the bulk of that current capacity is the fuel pump. Even if we overestimate the ECU will draw less than 10A - so 10A running through the ground strap.
The alternator has a certain current capacity (80-120A - don't know the actual rating) which will limit the current running through the earths. This current rating is seldom reached and it certainly wont be needed during maximal engine exertions (things like wipers, windows, seats, etc).

In terms of absolute totals, you have 150A potentially running through the earth straps of the engine - in reality it's a lot less. (In addition keep in mind the engine, when running, is being powered by the alternator, so any grounds on the engine will conduct current directly to the alternator and not through any earth strap to the battery).

The continous current capacity of the three earth straps would be somewhere in the vicinity of the 150A - one 4Gish cable, and two 16G cables. The factory got it right


IF you really *really* want to run an earthing kit running extra grounds to every imaginable part of the engine makes no sense.

1) Run an extra grounding cable from one of the bolts of the starter motor to the battery negative - this gives you a direct current path for the starter motor. Keep in mind a foot of engine block has a much large cross sectional area (hence current capacity) than a foot of 10mm2 cable, so you might not actually improve anything.

2) Extra cable off one of the bolts of the housing of the alternator to the battery (or better still find where the diodes are grounded on the back of the alternator housing and run the cable directly to them - best possible). Makes little sense if the alternator is on the other side of the engine to the battery as the engine block will conduct better than a cable.

3) You could connect an extra 4G grounding cable on the other side of the engine to the chassis (probably won't do much).

None of these are likely to give you any extra power.

When grounding the engine and ECU bits keep in mind that if something doesn't ground on the engine in a certain area, it makes absolutely no sense to give this area an extra ground - you have 100kg of cast iron giving you an almost unimaginable current path - what would you improve by adding a kilo of copper?

Everything on the engine management side on the 1G-FE grounds at two points on the cam cover. You could connect extra cables to those two points to the battery (alternator makes no sense again as the block will conduct better).

Otherwise, you could be more creative and ground the components that use those two ground points and improve on the length wiring that the factory runs in the loom - IE all the ignitors/coils have a ground pin - you could each ignitor directly to the battery and/or alternator.

The ECU has a number of high current ground connection, some of which run the injector currents - you could connect the ECU grounding pins straight to the battery and alternator (but leave the sensor signal ground alone).

You could connect the grounds of the oxygen sensors directly to the battery or engine block.

The only thing that has potential to give you extra power here are the coil packs but afaik the spark delivery is more than adequate in the factory application. That's pretty much the only thing that I can think of that could've made a difference on the skyline - spark quality is more critical in boosted application.

In terms of the injectors doing something differently - you may get slightly crisper opening times... real world value?....

Thoughts anyone? on anything?

Hopefully someone will read it There is *some* grounding advice

Mos.

Article he was refering to:

http://www.toymods.net/mos/img/earthing/ground2.jpg

http://www.toymods.net/mos/img/earthing/ground3.jpg

http://www.toymods.net/mos/img/earthing/ground4.jpg

M4DDOG - My audio system runs around 750wrms. No need for an earthing kit, a good battery - upgraded earth from Battery - Body, and the system runs perfect even at idle.
@bold - isn't this what an earthing kit does? lol.

No, Barry's earthing kits are much like the one's in the articles, that bolt to multiple locations.

I upgrade my Battery - Body cable to the same size cable as the +ive I run to my boot. In my case, this was 0AWG. This has nothing to do with improving the factory 'earth'.

If you really want to upgrade the factory earths, you can run a clean earth.

That is, one earth point for all electronics. Done this a few times on cars I've helped rewire.

Does any one Recomend these kits?

ERS: That article makes sense.. so what, it doesn't address a few things.

- 1 foot of engine material as epr his example has a large cross sectional area... great! This also equates to a higher resistance... basic electricals dictate current follows path of least resistance.. in this case an overdone 4ga cable is better than the hypothetical 1 foot of engine alloy material.

- He mentions that the only possible benefits is increased spark on coil packs.. which is quite probable but i don't have the electrical equipment to test an actual 40,000volt spark output.

- I had a 4age 16v and 20v... as great an engine as it is it's bloody ancient and doesn't have many sensors compared to modern engines

- If you want something to feed him, then give him my example a couple of posts back... a real world use for it where your gaining power THAT YOU'VE LOST... is when you use tuning equipment that intercept sensor signals.... this is why it's advisable to get full replacement ecu's with proper mapping. Look at your basic Narrowband O2/Lambda sensor on most cars .. it's got a 2 point resolution.. 0volt or 1volt.... whereas a wideband has 0-5volt in increments of decimal places.... on a wideband... a reduction of 0.1volt due to earthing resistance could mean a 0.5:1 Air Fuel ratio change....


This brings me back to my original point.. every application is different...
"Do not condemn a product until you yourself have tried it, but then if more than 10 'pros' have tried it and it sucked then I would take their advice"
Using information from Toymods (very respectable group don't get me wrong, i'm a member of the old forum as well as Toyota Owners Club) is still not valid when talking about the 6G74. I've had my magna for 2months, i have no reason to defend it... i'm not sure why your reading articles from completely irelevant vehicles.... you may as well be talking about installing high compression pistons in a rotary engine

***EDIT***
as you mentioned earlier, your an electrician... your in a better position to prove/disprove anything... can't you get access to an oscillator?

^^^That article makes sense.. so what, it doesn't address a few things.

- 1 foot of engine material as epr his example has a large cross sectional area... great! This also equates to a higher resistance... basic electricals dictate current follows path of least resistance.. in this case an overdone 4ga cable is better than the hypothetical 1 foot of engine alloy material.

- He mentions that the only possible benefits is increased spark on coil packs.. which is quite probable but i don't have the electrical equipment to test an actual 40,000volt spark output.

- I had a 4age 16v and 20v... as great an engine as it is it's bloody ancient and doesn't have many sensors.

- If you want something to feed him, then give him my example a couple of posts back... a real world use for it where your gaining power THAT YOU'VE LOST... is when you use tuning equipment that intercept sensor signals.... this is why it's advisable to get full replacement ecu's with proper mapping. Look at your basic Narrowband O2/Lambda sensor on most cars .. it's got a 2 point resolution.. 0volt or 1volt.... whereas a wideband has 0-5volt in increments of decimal places.... on a wideband... a reduction of 0.1volt due to earthing resistance could mean a 0.5:1 Air Fuel ratio change....

ERS: That article makes sense.. so what, it doesn't address a few things.

- 1 foot of engine material as epr his example has a large cross sectional area... great! This also equates to a higher resistance... basic electricals dictate current follows path of least resistance.. in this case an overdone 4ga cable is better than the hypothetical 1 foot of engine alloy material.

Ok so how is 100kg of iron, with a cross section of lets say 500mm have more resistance than 4AWG cable which has a cross section of 25mm? (25mm from memory.....)

Bugger it, how about I test it on Monday and post the results?


- If you want something to feed him, then give him my example a couple of posts back... a real world use for it where your gaining power THAT YOU'VE LOST... is when you use tuning equipment that intercept sensor signals.... this is why it's advisable to get full replacement ecu's with proper mapping. Look at your basic Narrowband O2/Lambda sensor on most cars .. it's got a 2 point resolution.. 0volt or 1volt.... whereas a wideband has 0-5volt in increments of decimal places.... on a wideband... a reduction of 0.1volt due to earthing resistance could mean a 0.5:1 Air Fuel ratio change....

So how does this effect a car with a narrow band O2 and factory ECU?


This brings me back to my original point.. every application is different...
"Do not condemn a product until you yourself have tried it, but then if more than 10 'pros' have tried it and it sucked then I would take their advice"
Using information from Toymods (very respectable group don't get me wrong, i'm a member of the old forum as well as Toyota Owners Club) is still not valid when talking about the 6G74. I've had my magna for 2months, i have no reason to defend it... i'm not sure why your reading articles from completely irelevant vehicles.... you may as well be talking about installing high compression pistons in a rotary engine

***EDIT***
as you mentioned earlier, your an electrician... your in a better position to prove/disprove anything... can't you get access to an oscillator?

Just a quick point, electrical principles apply to ALL vehicles, ALL engines - they do not pick which principle applies to which engine. So no, I dont look at that post by MOS as irrelivant - the principle's he talks about are spot on.

P.S I am not a qualified auto electrician, I work with one on weekends/afternoons rewiring cars. However will be getting an apprenticeship next year.

Out of the 3 drag cars we've wired, the 30 road/show cars we've wired - we are yet to use an 'earthing kit'. That includes simple ECU wiring without full rewiring.

As for testing Barry's kits, I made the offer as did another member (with access to a dyno). Barry refused to say which electrical systems where affected, how they were and how they can be tested.

As far as im concerned, thats enough for me to ignore this product.

Ok so how is 100kg of iron, with a cross section of lets say 500mm have more resistance than 4AWG cable which has a cross section of 25mm? (25mm from memory.....)

Bugger it, how about I test it on Monday and post the results?

Please do


So how does this effect a car with a narrow band O2 and factory ECU?
This was an example... theres the TPS, Intake Air temp sensors, Mass Airflow sensor...

On cars equipped with the Z32 AFM/MAF (mainly vehicles with the VG30DE Nissan Engine), regrounding the vehicle (but more specifically the AFM/MAF) provided well documented gains because of signal deteriaration which lead to the car running rich and losing power.... this was because the sensor was receiving a lower voltage signal than it should which translates in the ecu as less air... so the engine was actually getting more air than it should causing leaning which sent the knock sensor and O2 sensor crazy resulting in ignition retard and pumping more fuel to compensate (a safety function when knock is detected)

Why is this concept so hard to understand and why are you working so hard to disprove something thats proven... If you went as far as searching on Toymods then you should research other car manufacturer forums as well and accept and realise that some things work for some cars and some things don't...

ok Now thw 1 thing i dont understand in all this, is HOW this raises FUEL PRESSURE?

Yes you can heat the fuel and rail all you want, but heres the catch. The pressure reg is on the end of the rail STILL holding the original pressure it was set to factory. its can flow hot or cold, it will still hold the SAME pressure. So in reality all you are doing is leaning out the mixtures.

If your asking that because of one of my previous posts.. like i said it's an assumption on my part until proven since it was never mentioned... someone here with a fuel gauge should confirm it... a stock FPR isn't rising rate and has a set spring pressure behind the diaphragm... depends on the quality of it and how strong the pump is.

Fuel pressure on the diaphragm is controlled by plenum vacuum for rpm changes, if fuel is heated it should increase fuel pressure.

If your asking that because of one of my previous posts.. like i said it's an assumption on my part until proven since it was never mentioned... someone here with a fuel gauge should confirm it... a stock FPR isn't rising rate and has a set spring pressure behind the diaphragm... depends on the quality of it and how strong the pump is.

Fuel pressure on the diaphragm is controlled by plenum vacuum for rpm changes

All irrelivant of heat... is what im saying.

i know how they work.

This was an example... theres the TPS, Intake Air temp sensors, Mass Airflow sensor...

On cars equipped with the Z32 AFM/MAF (mainly vehicles with the VG30DE Nissan Engine), regrounding the vehicle (but more specifically the AFM/MAF) provided well documented gains because of signal deteriaration which lead to the car running rich and losing power.... this was because the sensor was receiving a lower voltage signal than it should which translates in the ecu as less air... so the engine was actually getting more air than it should causing leaning which sent the knock sensor and O2 sensor crazy resulting in ignition retard and pumping more fuel to compensate (a safety function when knock is detected)

So once again, the question was asked of Barry - which electrical systems does his earthing kits help, and how can this be tested - no straight answer.

As for the Z32 AFM - so you're telling me you'd strap on another earth, rather than take 2 minutes to clean the original earth?


Why is this concept so hard to understand and why are you working so hard to disprove something thats proven... If you went as far as searching on Toymods then you should research other car manufacturer forums as well and accept and realise that some things work for some cars and some things don't...

Show me the proof it works, a dyno sheet with more than 1% variation. Show me resistance figures, voltage differences, show me a stronger spark, show me something thats quantifiable.

All irrelivant of heat... is what im saying.

i know how they work.

so your talking about constant spring rates then regardless of actual rate of compression?

So once again, the question was asked of Barry - which electrical systems does his earthing kits help, and how can this be tested - no straight answer.

As for the Z32 AFM - so you're telling me you'd strap on another earth, rather than take 2 minutes to clean the original earth?



Show me the proof it works, a dyno sheet with more than 1% variation. Show me resistance figures, voltage differences, show me a stronger spark, show me something thats quantifiable.

All i know is i have an Earthing Kit (i made my own) on my car and it helped. started quicker and idled smoother.

yes it could have been the original earth was shi te but meh...........:iough:

I'll bet my left nut on it Trotty :P

No seriously, its more than likely that the original earths were average (corrosion and engine grime build up break the earth down). Yes strapping a new earth on will 'fix' this. Cleaning the original earths has a wonderful effect aswell.

So once again, the question was asked of Barry - which electrical systems does his earthing kits help, and how can this be tested - no straight answer.

As for the Z32 AFM - so you're telling me you'd strap on another earth, rather than take 2 minutes to clean the original earth?



Show me the proof it works, a dyno sheet with more than 1% variation. Show me resistance figures, voltage differences, show me a stronger spark, show me something thats quantifiable.

No, I would completely replace the wiring which is the proper thing to do, when it was first discovered, an earthing kit was installed which showed a gain of like 5% which astounded everyone leading to further research... the earthing kit was since considered a preventative measure. But that proves it works. The difference was, these people purposely mounted earthing kits in areas near sensors and electrical devices.

I mentioned earlier also, i wouldn't classify earthing kits as a power giving mod, rather something that recovers what is lost. Kind of like the placebo in changing over to iridium plugs consistently gaining like ~2wkw.. the 'gain' is there, but it's more because it's recovered power fro replacing dying plugs. I can't give you personal dynosheets, but i can verify this from personal experience on my mechs rig... brands like Raizin who provide oscillation graphs on voltage spike reduction.. it ain't a lie.

***EDIT***
Look at cars with uneven headlight beam intensities (mostly old cars)... most people arent going to be stuffed fiddling with harnesses... in some cars earthing kits will fix it.. they'll try it, it doesn't work for them and consider it snake oil

Voltage spike reduction, thats my other favourite reason for these working.

Question:

What voltage does an ECU (and its sensors) operate at?

Also, majority of ECU's will have their own seperate earth, to negate these issues.

I'll bet my left nut on it Trotty :P

No seriously, its more than likely that the original earths were average (corrosion and engine grime build up break the earth down). Yes strapping a new earth on will 'fix' this. Cleaning the original earths has a wonderful effect aswell.

I agree..... but the last sentence.. not all the time... same reason we replace plug leads when they gain resistance... it loses power and damages the ignition system because the coils needs a higher primary voltage for the plug to function properly by the time the power gets there because of the bottleneck caused by deteriorating plug leads.

Same with earthing kits... i guess you could say for some applications it's easier/sufficient to just install earthing leads than rewiring looms which the average joe won't know how to do or bother with.

Voltage spike reduction, thats my other favourite reason for these working.

Question:

What voltage does an ECU (and its sensors) operate at?

Also, majority of ECU's will have their own seperate earth, to negate these issues.

The ecu won't get affected as most ecu's even have a faraday cage these days and are generally bolted down to the chassis... it's the signal of the sensors reading inaccurately and providing false signals before they get to the ecu...

This is part reason why stupid ebay sellers sell "performance chips" for a fortune which turns out to be a 5cent resistor you plug into the intake air temp sensor

Unless the copper has corroded (nice white-green substance that coats each strand), then cleaning the earth 99% of the time is enough.

Earths break down, rust being the major issue, engine grime/oil/dirt, and people having cars repainted.

Yes earthing kits may fix things like dimming headlights in older cars, uneven beams and all the rest - its also called a band aid sollution.

Each to their own - if people want to part with their money for these products - then cool, its not my money, not my issue.

Unless the copper has corroded (nice white-green substance that coats each strand), then cleaning the earth 99% of the time is enough.

Earths break down, rust being the major issue, engine grime/oil/dirt, and people having cars repainted.

Yes earthing kits may fix things like dimming headlights in older cars, uneven beams and all the rest - its also called a band aid sollution.

Each to their own - if people want to part with their money for these products - then cool, its not my money, not my issue.
:) that is exactly the key! If there are gains/recoveries or noticable performance gains then why not... for the average joe it beats troubleshooting each wire.

Like you say, its each individuals perspective on the perceived benefit. I for one didn't move to a magna to turn it into a sports car, some bandaid fixes for one car can be looked at as actual performance benefit for another car.. AFPR is a good example.. its a bandaid fix to a turbo car with fuelling issues, but its a performance upgrade for an NA car that needs a small adjustment to linearly move AFR ratios to get it into the sweet spot.

Now lets delve deep into the benefits of harmonic tuning and pressure differentials using McCormick's Lids! :shifty:

I am really struggling not to just close this thread to be quite frank due to the pointlessness of this debate

I have over 20 years working on Magna's, no I did not work in the factory but having said that I have come across almost every issue a Magna can have and fixed it over the years (except your fuse Lugo lol)

The earthing system on a Magna is excellent. You do not need to earth a MAF, temp sensore, isc, TPS etc as they are earthed from the ECU harness. If you want to clean that earth, it is located under the dash near the ECU

I see a lot of debate on other makes of cars, last time I looked we are talking Magna's here, not Honda's and Nissans etc. These are totally different cars and can not be compared to our cars in anyway.

I have, as stated many times offered to Barry to purchase the kit, fit it and dyno it, he simply told me that a Dyno will show no results. That to me says that this snake oil has no results to be seen as even a small gain anywhere will show up.

As ERS said, clean your earthing points properly, if you really want to drop a better earth onto the body and block and leave it at that

xxxxx
I am really struggling not to just close this thread to be quite frank due to the pointlessness of this debate

Hi Madmagna

I hope you don't close this thread - these comments (as from dsp26 & others are of good quality) and it would be a waste of all our time and resources thus far to stop it now - just when things are beginning to make sense to many members

I have over 20 years working on Magna's, no I did not work in the factory but having said that I have come across almost every issue a Magna can have and fixed it over the years (except your fuse Lugo lol)

The earthing system on a Magna is excellent

Sorry, but it is far from excellent - the stock system is barely adequate for a carburettor version, and if it were not for the ECU's differential inputs, it would be very poor indeed
(sorry guys, I am a proud TJ2 owner too, but the truth needs to be told)

You do not need to earth a MAF, temp sensore, isc, TPS etc as they are earthed from the ECU harness. If you want to clean that earth, it is located under the dash near the ECU

I see a lot of debate on other makes of cars, last time I looked we are talking Magna's here, not Honda's and Nissans etc. These are totally different cars and can not be compared to our cars in anyway

True - the kits are designed for and tested on Magnas only
Also they address the issues of the 'infamous flat spot' in the tuning from fitting the K&N hi-flow air filter, and to the tuning of the hi-flow muffler

I have, as stated many times offered to Barry to purchase the kit, fit it and dyno it, he simply told me that a Dyno will show no results. That to me says that this snake oil has no results to be seen as even a small gain anywhere will show up.

There is no need to spend a lot of money on a dyno - On road testing using a high resolution Air-fuel ratio meter will show you positive results
I remind you that a gain has already been demonstrated on a dyno in "performance build-ups magazine"

As ERS said, clean your earthing points properly, if you really want to drop a better earth onto the body and block and leave it at that

So a gain has been demonstrated on a ????????

Would you care to elaborate where exactly the Magna is deficient in it's earthing system.

Also, you are talking about flat spots when fitting K&N filters as well as high flow mufflers, perhaps tuning the vehicle may help?? It has been shown on a Magna that the K&N is not be be all and end all, in fact it has been shown that a good clean paper filter is superior

Back to the Dyno arguement, if the car has better seat of the pants feeling, this will show on a Dyno and the best bit, I would not have to pay for a Dyno but there you go hey

So if you could please elaborate on the areas of the Magna Earthing system that is not sufficient, I would be very interested to know

In simple terms it's a mix of metals... i'd like to see an aluminium engine.. picture this.. an engine made of coke cans :nuts:?

As a quick reply: Friend of mine, and possibly myself will be working on the electrics of an LJ torana. 8lt V8 Aluminium block. I'll take pictures, lovely machine.

Rotaries also use Alloy rotor housings, that is, aluminium.

Yes, all steels are alloys.

Alloy is just the jargon used to refer to aluminium engines. Not technically correct, but everyone knows what is meant.

For those interested in this article:

http://web.aanet.com.au/naa/p1.jpg

http://web.aanet.com.au/naa/p2.jpg

http://web.aanet.com.au/naa/p3.jpg

I see a lot of debate on other makes of cars, last time I looked we are talking Magna's here, not Honda's and Nissans etc. These are totally different cars and can not be compared to our cars in anyway.


I know thats directed at me, the examples are in a way, mere analogies of the original point i was trying to get across in my original post reviving this thread... that different things work for different cars and a product should not be condemned by a consumer unless they themselves have personally tried it.

I can completely understand your point of view having the expertise of working with Mitsu for 20yrs and these 'snake oils' maybe hocus pocus in your experience with Mitsu.. it does not mean they do not work.... for other cars (and from the above post by Ers proves it does)

This is why for performance work in general i'd rather deal with performance workshops (specific to my model) instead of mainstream mechanics... not saying all, but most i've dealt with stick by their 30yrs+ experience without having deviated from anything they've learned from the book and not taking into account intellectual redundancy. I speak to a lot of older relatives who think their wise and experienced... what good is that claim when they didn't achieve,learn or discover anything in their time... i know of really young people who have gone through so much in life to last them a lifetime.. seen things they shouldn't...

This is what sets performance workshops apart, their innovators willing to push the edge because they can do so with their funds for R&D... Backyard mechanics and innovators get shunned easily because their innovation wasn't done from factory. Camshafts upgrades.. i think they should've been done from factory too but like i've mentioned earlier, manufacturers outweigh cost versus getting things passed for emmisions, fuel octane availability and consistency around the world... the Mitsubishi badge doesn't exactly have a clean history.....

Lets face it... the 6G74 engine wasn't designed with performance in mind.. and a Magna is not sports car .. sports/vrx/ralliart/whatever.. its a family sedan hence why theres not may aftermarket parts for it and why companies like RPW can monopolise.. who in their right mind would bother starting a company to try and compete with RPW who service a niche market of Magna's...

Forums and members need to support innovators and merit should be given where it is due, although I agree innovators should back their product with rigorous testing, in Barry's case he probably doesn't need to... i've done a lot of research on varying topics in this forum in my limited time here and i can confidently say there are more believers in his product than nay-sayers which is enough i guess... heck most manufacturers starting from humble beginnings start like that... i can name one you should all be familiar with... OBX

Funny how since Barry's kit went on my magna starts on the 1/2 kick of the starter motor instead of 2x chugs later. Yes that was BEFORE the rebuild, no other variables changed. Now I have a heavily moddified motor that starts on the 1/2 kick, not many do. Don't need a dyno to tell me that having my car start BEFORE the 2007 mercedes next to me is a good thing.

I know thats directed at me, the examples are in a way, mere analogies of the original point i was trying to get across in my original post reviving this thread... that different things work for different cars and a product should not be condemned by a consumer unless they themselves have personally tried it.

I can completely understand your point of view having the expertise of working with Mitsu for 20yrs and these 'snake oils' maybe hocus pocus in your experience with Mitsu.. it does not mean they do not work.... for other cars (and from the above post by Ers proves it does)

This is why for performance work in general i'd rather deal with performance workshops (specific to my model) instead of mainstream mechanics... not saying all, but most i've dealt with stick by their 30yrs+ experience without having deviated from anything they've learned from the book and not taking into account intellectual redundancy. I speak to a lot of older relatives who think their wise and experienced... what good is that claim when they didn't achieve,learn or discover anything in their time... i know of really young people who have gone through so much in life to last them a lifetime.. seen things they shouldn't...

This is what sets performance workshops apart, their innovators willing to push the edge because they can do so with their funds for R&D... Backyard mechanics and innovators get shunned easily because their innovation wasn't done from factory. Camshafts upgrades.. i think they should've been done from factory too but like i've mentioned earlier, manufacturers outweigh cost versus getting things passed for emmisions, fuel octane availability and consistency around the world... the Mitsubishi badge doesn't exactly have a clean history.....

Lets face it... the 6G74 engine wasn't designed with performance in mind.. and a Magna is not sports car .. sports/vrx/ralliart/whatever.. its a family sedan hence why theres not may aftermarket parts for it and why companies like RPW can monopolise.. who in their right mind would bother starting a company to try and compete with RPW who service a niche market of Magna's...

Forums and members need to support innovators and merit should be given where it is due, although I agree innovators should back their product with rigorous testing, in Barry's case he probably doesn't need to... i've done a lot of research on varying topics in this forum in my limited time here and i can confidently say there are more believers in his product than nay-sayers which is enough i guess... heck most manufacturers starting from humble beginnings start like that... i can name one you should all be familiar with... OBX

Which is exactly why I have my car, it is prob the most modded car on these forums, not all performance stuff but take the extras I have worked into the car, most of which many here have said could not be done.

As stated above, I am more than happy for some evedence to be thrown up here to show these work, more than someone turning an ignition key (after an ecu reset) and more than someone who can "hear" all these extra killer wasps but quite frankly I am really over asking for this and being told the same crap over and over

I am all for inovation and new ideas, hell I try them almost daily and have a pile of crap lying around I have tried and failed but before I try and sell a product, I back it up with testing and will generally do this to my own car first and have something to back up what I have done.

Which is exactly why I have my car, it is prob the most modded car on these forums, not all performance stuff but take the extras I have worked into the car, most of which many here have said could not be done.

As stated above, I am more than happy for some evedence to be thrown up here to show these work, more than someone turning an ignition key (after an ecu reset) and more than someone who can "hear" all these extra killer wasps but quite frankly I am really over asking for this and being told the same crap over and over

I am all for inovation and new ideas, hell I try them almost daily and have a pile of crap lying around I have tried and failed but before I try and sell a product, I back it up with testing and will generally do this to my own car first and have something to back up what I have done.

Great mindset of a true innovator!!!! especially the last paragraph!

I don't know Barry, not gonna try defend him or the product. He didn't innovate the earthing kits in this matter, been around for a while and proven to work, and the article posted above by Ers and testimonials of happy customers is all he'll need in this case.... the fuel rail kit probably needs more of a technical explanation and further research.

And to keep in Topic regarding the "Barry mods", Barry, please consider my suggestion for creating those heat gasket washer rings for the intake manifold and throttlebody bolts... MadMagna is right, the bolts transfer A LOT of heat meaning the intake mani gaskets on their own would only slow down heat transfer instead of completing its function properly... this will be evident in idle traffic in summer and no amount of air cooling from driving 70km/h will be sufficient to cool it

There's no flaming in this topic dsp.

As for that article - I hope you read the part about a voltage stabiliser. It also does not prove all that much in regards to Barry's kits, which I myself am well and trully over asking for the proof that it works (proof that can be tested).

Also I would love to hear a proper response to one of Madmagna's posts, as to which area of a Magna is deffecient (earth/electrically). Where these kits connect to, and how they affect things like afr's/voltage/voltage spike's/etc.

IF grounding kits worked in general, im sure a more credible performance car scene would be using them. To date im yet to see these on an expensive car........

If the proof is put up, or even allowed to be tested - I'll shut up quite quickly and admit im wrong. Not like I've never been wrong before.

When a product comes out and its stated its not possible to test on a dyno or with electrical test equipment, I get very suspicious - especially when then a reference to an article is given saying it can be tested.

There's no flaming in this topic dsp.

As for that article - I hope you read the part about a voltage stabiliser. It also does not prove all that much in regards to Barry's kits, which I myself am well and trully over asking for the proof that it works (proof that can be tested).

Also I would love to hear a proper response to one of Madmagna's posts, as to which area of a Magna is deffecient (earth/electrically). Where these kits connect to, and how they affect things like afr's/voltage/voltage spike's/etc.

IF grounding kits worked in general, im sure a more credible performance car scene would be using them. To date im yet to see these on an expensive car........

If the proof is put up, or even allowed to be tested - I'll shut up quite quickly and admit im wrong. Not like I've never been wrong before.

When a product comes out and its stated its not possible to test on a dyno or with electrical test equipment, I get very suspicious - especially when then a reference to an article is given saying it can be tested.

The Honda scene.. and the brand Buddyclub makes an overpriced version.. apparently not relevant though coz it's not a Magna and it may well not prove beneficial for a Magna.. but then again a huge Japanese Brand.. Top Fuel also makes fuel line magnets which is definitely snake oil so i don't know...

Barry's kit afaik doesn't come with a voltage stabiliser anyway... the reason it's been 'proven' that Raizin stabilisers have little to no effect was because the majority on the market and ebay are cheap knockoffs... their website shows the spot the difference diagram. i've given my personal testimony on the electrical oscillator test for the function of the stabiliser reducing spikes which i will confirm but not to the extent of the prettied up microsoft excel graphs the stabiliser manufacturers make.

The sensor signal outputs i've given my example.. but again not relevant to Magna's...

That is all good, so LETS SEE SOMEONE DO THESE TESTS ON A BLOODY MAGNA????????????????????????????????????????// I mean, screw me, I can get a ferguson tractor, do a mod and say "hey my magna will benefit from running it on vegie oil" FFS :nuts:

I am not saying some cars will not benefit, my old falcon made a huge improvement but we are not talking Falcons, Honda's etc.

We have asked several times to "show" any thing, measurements or anything and all we get is the same jibberish

Oh well, I am going outside now to nugget my tyres, it is apparently good for at least 10kw at the back wheels:wtf:

I think what people are missing here is that these mods ARE NOT DESIGNED TO GIVE KILOWATTS!!! So stop asking for damn dyno graphs as there WONT be any difference!

They are designed to help remove flat spots, improve idle etc. Any power improvement will be so minimal that it could just be the dyno's tolerance!

When i had my KJ i installed the fuel rail kit and the gasket kit. Didn't notice any changes. This was before the supercharger went on. Never got around to installing the earthing kit. Not saying these kits don't do anything as a lot of people swear by them but personally speaking i never experienced any changes from what i can remember.

I think what people are missing here is that these mods ARE NOT DESIGNED TO GIVE KILOWATTS!!! So stop asking for damn dyno graphs as there WONT be any difference!

They are designed to help remove flat spots, improve idle etc. Any power improvement will be so minimal that it could just be the dyno's tolerance!

about time someone noticed that not everything is about peak numbers, but wouldnt this "flat spot" show up on a dyno printout?

im neither for or against the kits i just thought flat spots would show up on a dyno

about time someone noticed that not everything is about peak numbers, but wouldnt this "flat spot" show up on a dyno printout?

im neither for or against the kits i just thought flat spots would show up on a dyno


of course they do... when you're tuning a car on a dyno it's not the peak numbers that are interesting, it's the dips and troughs on the way to the peak that you try to even out.

however, in evening out those troughs, you usually end up with a higher peak number (or get there earlier).

cheers,
.wook

of course they do... when you're tuning a car on a dyno it's not the peak numbers that are interesting, it's the dips and troughs on the way to the peak that you try to even out.

however, in evening out those troughs, you usually end up with a higher peak number (or get there earlier).

cheers,
.wook

or both if ya lucky

it's also why when tuning most tuners/dyno operators won't use SAE correction or put it in shootout mode (and why peak numbers read higher).. because theres less interpolation.. you see every jagged bit on the curve which can be used as an indication of ignition failure/inadequacy in the top end.

what i find interesting on a anon sport/vrx/ralliart magna from an article i read was that theres a 20wkw dip in power at 500rpm then shoots back up a bit.. installing a straight through muffler eliminated this. but it technically means you have a peak gain of 20wkw in the band but it is not the gain at peak value

I think what people are missing here is that these mods ARE NOT DESIGNED TO GIVE KILOWATTS!!! So stop asking for damn dyno graphs as there WONT be any difference!

They are designed to help remove flat spots, improve idle etc. Any power improvement will be so minimal that it could just be the dyno's tolerance!

All of this would/should show up on a Dyno.

I thought thats what Dyno's were for? tuning, finding possible troughs/peaks and tuning these out as best as possible?

Ok, so if these so called flat spots are caused by bad design (which they clearly are not) then why does Barry not state what is the cause, not just "earths" but which ones and what exactly this does to improve what some of the countries best electrical design engineers seemed to have missed?

Wookiee, again you are right on the money, a dyno will show those flat spots and then show after the result in eliminating them

So the total cost of these "kits (eyes rolled)" is what around 450 bucks, well you would be 1000% better off getting Steve Knight to re tune your ECU and not only get rid of these "flat spots" but also get a better AFR and more flar curve

Ok, so if these so called flat spots are caused by bad design (which they clearly are not) then why does Barry not state what is the cause, not just "earths" but which ones and what exactly this does to improve what some of the countries best electrical design engineers seemed to have missed?

Wookiee, again you are right on the money, a dyno will show those flat spots and then show after the result in eliminating them

So the total cost of these "kits (eyes rolled)" is what around 450 bucks, well you would be 1000% better off getting Steve Knight to re tune your ECU and not only get rid of these "flat spots" but also get a better AFR and more flar curve

Tuning is the ultimate fix, for the general public this does not get done until every planned modification is installed to save on tuning costs. This is why people opt for 'bandaid fixes'. And most users will not go beyond the basic I/H/E boltons to warrant an ecu tune.

AFPR's for example are completely useless in AFR tuning if you plan on an ecu anyway, even if you max out the injectors and the AFPR is used to get that bit more out of injectors it doesn't make sense at the chance one injector fails and leans the engine.. smart practice is to size injectors to only reach around 75% max duty cycle for the tune and mods combo for safety.

I don't want to sound like a knocker but what I can't understand is why on the one hand there's a kit to heat the fuel in the fuel rail, and an insulator kit to keep heat out of the inlet manifold. Why not simply let heat in the inlet manifold, as per the factory setup, do the job of getting better atomisation if thats what Magna engines need to run properly?

It seems some don't understand basic science or the makeup of a running engine, or how difficult it is to properly atomise petrol. During development of new direct injection engines one of the biggest challenges is getting the injector timing right. Thats harder than it first appears. Spray at the wrong time and the fuel hits the opening/closing inlet valve and devaporises even though the valve is hot. Likewise with the position of the piston. Too close to TDC, and even with the crown at 300-400 deg they found fuel puddling.

Graham was concerned that the Magna was getting excess inlet manifold heat so he fitted a heat shield and cold air pipe into the valley to minimise heating inlet air and cool the fuel rail. There are no dead spots and no drop in fuel economy. Even on E10 when giving his heads and cams a real workout over 2 weeks in July we were going 600 km and more on a tank in his AWD. I've also got cold air into the valley and if I could justify the expense I'd have a carbon fibre inlet and air box built. And not only for proper ram pipe lengths, but to keep heat out of the inlet ports.

Cheers,
Alan

I'm going to weld jackets onto my inlet manifold and divert some of the water coolant from the intercooler thru it :D Will do it down the track and report gains/differences/economy etc.

I'm going to weld jackets onto my inlet manifold and divert some of the water coolant from the intercooler thru it :D Will do it down the track and report gains/differences/economy etc.

Might be a little hard mate as third gens do not have a coolant passage in the inlet manifold lol

Might be a little hard mate as third gens do not have a coolant passage in the inlet manifold lol

pretty sure that's why he is going to weld them on?