This has probably been covered ad infinitum, but I want to modify the already good suspension on my newly acquired KE Xi Verada. Now I want an extremely smooth ride, and would also like to achieve the seemingly contradictory goal of better agility. If this involves strut braces and sway bars i'm fine with that.

Unfortunately I don't have the money to spend on airbag suspension, which was my first thought.

Is this just a fool's dream of smoother ride with more agility for reasonable $$$?

Appreciate any insight you can offer.

Can't really get smoother than stock if you want agility...

Spring rate will determine your amount of bodyroll and your ability to take corners quickly, strut and sway bars will take away any flex your chassis may have.

I suppose you could upgrade your struts/dampers to a more comfortable brand and add the strut/sway bars, however spring rate will be a killer when your car continues to behave like a boat.

Howdy,

In keeping with the request for a smooth ride but with better handling etc,you couldn`t go past an upgraded rear swaybar or fitment of a rear bar in the case of none being fitted from factory,a strut brace and a good set of tyres,throw in a professional wheel alignment and i would say IMO,you would have exactly what you have asked for without the NVH problems that stiff springs and shocks etc can bring!

Steve

Ah ok, thanks for the advice. Is there a way I could retain its current agility, but improve the ride height, appearance and shock absorption by fitting softer springs and sway bars to counteract the extra roll? I'm very new to this whole concept but this is the ultimate goal. The roads I drive every day are absolutely pathetic (country NSW) and I'd really like to skim over the rough spots without compromising handling characteristics. I'd also like the car to sit lower than it does for aesthetic reasons, and I had hoped that a lower centre of gravity might counteract the softness of the springs to some extent.

If this is the case, what am I looking at spending for quality soft rate springs and enough sway bars and strut braces to hold it all together on the corners?

i dont think u'll find a low or superlow spring that wont actually be firmer... maybe with the high $$$ koni's, but that comes with a price!

i dont think u'll find a low or superlow spring that wont actually be firmer... maybe with the high $$$ koni's, but that comes with a price!
Mmmm but with decreasing the spring height you have to increase the strength of the spring itself... Harsher ride.

Mmmm but with decreasing the spring height you have to increase the strength of the spring itself... Harsher ride.

damper control should help shouldnt it?

with the damper controls does it only control the upwards push and not the intial suspension travel down? or can you get them that do both, i always thoguht it does both but suspension lad told me you dampen the upwards push to be quicker or slower return to height not the actaul stiffness going down?

stiffer dampers will affect the ride quality too. I think best bet is to put strut braces, this will stiffen the car which will give better response and stop the alignment changing, and also help the suspension work more effectively. mind you on a car with sports suspension it is a minor difference, on stock stuff, you probably wont notice. fitting a thicker rear sway bar wont affect comfort much but will make the car turn in better and reduce understeer. This would be worth getting for you in my opinion.

If you want low ride height, you could get 'lows', these will give a nice lowering, without being too much stiffer. If you get high quality shocks, hopfeully you will get good handling but the comfort will be Ok. Im kinda after the same thing, im gonna go lovell low springs, with either KYB or Monroe sensatrac. KYB has good feedback but I think it may possibly be too stiff for my liking. Im thinking senstrac will be comfortable, while handling a lot better than my current stock and worn out shocks

Ollie

I think best bet is to put strut braces, this will stiffen the car which will give better response and stop the alignment changing, and also help the suspension work more effectively... fitting a thicker rear sway bar wont affect comfort much but will make the car turn in better and reduce understeer. This would be worth getting for you in my opinion.

Ollie

Now this is intriguing. The ride in the Verada is nice and smooth already but handling dynamics leave something to be desired. I'm having second thoughts about lowering the ride height due to the craptastic roads I drive every day, and thinking about spending that money on better brakes - bigger slotted and/or cross drilled rotors, big brake shoes and good pads.

So the revised plan is improving on stock components
- improving brakes
- installing sway bars and strut braces

Any thoughts?

budget? a good budget upgrade for the brakes would be something like RDA slotted/Lucas pads, end up around $200ish for the fronts. next is like going to Ralliart/AWD calipers etc, but price goes up to around $1000.
so depends on how badly u wanna brake :P is it just for the street?

Yeh depends on what you mean by brake 'upgrade'. You could get some nice DBA 4000 series disks and high quality pads for im guessing roughly $400 an end, which I think woulddo some good and would like to do one day, where as some serious brake upgrades can be very costly.

However im guessing a front strut brace would be 100-150, dont know if you can get one for the rear, and a strut brace I think round 200 but really guessing on that one.

I seem to be in the same boat as you, I like a good handling car, however I enjoy the comfort of my Verada, and dont really want to ruin it to make it handle better, especially as I think even after work has been done to it, it may be much better, but not crash hot. However anything I can do increase handling and retain comfort I would be up for.

EDIT: Though I have no experience, I dont want to give you false hopes, but in a stock car like a Verada, im guessing that you will most likely not be able to tell the difference if you fit a strut brace. I think only on very stiff set up cars, the reduced flex may be noticeable. I reckon a sway bar would be good though, now that I think about it, I might add it to my own future mods list.

Ollie

The ride in the Verada is nice and smooth because your car is nearly 11 years old with 125000 (whatever) km and I dare to say genuine suspension which is by now tired (worn-out).
Handling dynamics leave something to be desired because your car rides on springs, shocks are worn. You have huge body roll and wallow ride which give you false feeling of smooth ride.
Your car has front sway bar. You can buy Whiteline rear sway bar BMR69XZ which will reduce body roll but will not compromise comfort. Also I would buy strut brace from Whiteline KSB592, it will stiffen front end.
I'm having second thoughts about lowering the ride height due to the craptastic roads I drive every day Agree with you. Lower springs mean stiffer springs = harsher ride. Suspension requires certain amount of travel to keep the wheels in contact with road and at the same time occupants in the car comfortable. Could write till Christmas Eve about this but to shorten it. Keep the standard height and change the shock absorbers. No need to go nuts here, standard Monroe shocks and change them after 45000 km.
Rally cars drive on poor roads, no lowered cars and ultra low profile tyres there.
If your discs require replacement go with sloted rotors DBA or RDA will do just fine and good quality pads, Race Brakes RB3 pads are my choice.
Of course don't forget fresh brake fluid.

I say throw the smallest rim on your car like a 15', the extra sidewall means smoother ride over harsh bumps... but will cost handling. Got a set with tyres if ya want!
New shocks,
And the rear sway bar, counter the 15's Craphappiness!

Ok not sure why my posts dissapear?

Anywho....

Improving ride and handling are costly, especially in a car that was designed for a smooth ride.

As someone said - your shocks by now are worn, which is what absorbs the shock of crappy roads. Replacing these would be a good start, you could try and find some wider diameter shock absorbers, this wouldnt make the shock absorber stiffer, however a greater surface area inside the shock will mean the shock works less to absorb a shock (making it slightly less harsh).

Replacing all your bushes with new rubber bushes would be a good (and costly idea, unless you are competent with replacing suspension bushes). Upgrading some to nolthane would improve handing without comprimising ride. ***talk to a suspension specialist about which one's to replace with nolthane.

Having custom made progressive rate springs will ensure a good ride, with better handling.

Sway bars, Camber, can be adjusted - however its not a question of if it can be done, just how much money do you have?

This may be naive, but shouldn't my shocks have been replaced by now? Surely they'd be absolutely f*****d after 125000km.

Nice tips about the brakes and shocks though, I'll be looking at the options like some sensatrac monroes and DBA cross drilled, if in fact my shocks are cactus.

next is like going to Ralliart/AWD calipers etc, but price goes up to around $1000.


Or he could find a smashed 380, and get the same twin piston setup for $300

Why not progressive rate springs? They'll offer good ride quality, and decent handling. Shocks generally last about 100,000km, by 160,000, they're completely rooted

How do progressive rate springs work?

*Now trawling for broken 380s*

*Now trawling for broken 380s*

Make sure that you get the calipers, discs, and brake lines.

Also, what size rim do you have, as they are a pretty tight fit behind 17" rims. Not sure if they would fit behind a 16"

This may be naive, but shouldn't my shocks have been replaced by now? Surely they'd be absolutely f*****d after 125000km.

Nice tips about the brakes and shocks though, I'll be looking at the options like some sensatrac monroes and DBA cross drilled, if in fact my shocks are cactus.


Yes they should have but average (majority) vehicle owners doesn't have a clue about how things work on the car or why are there in the first place, how they affect behavior of the car if worn or broken.
You know what I am talking about when you see knitted tissue box cover, pile of knitted pillows on the back shelf or matching pair of hats for her and him, mature driver with hat on his head while driving, fluffy dice or whatnot hanging from rear view mirror, glued small plastic figurines on top of dashboard or in front of instrument cluster, almost forgot knitted steering wheel cover and "I Have ESP" sticker on the bumper. :nuts:

Shocks generally last about 100,000km, by 160,000, they're completely rooted


Gav, your wrong. Don't have much time at the moment to find more links but will add some more when I do.

http://www.fastlane.com.au/Safety/Monroe_holiday_shocks.htm

http://www.apesprings.com.au/gpage.html

This one is for laughs, it is from old holden.com

shock absorber life
Submitted by Circlotron on Mon, 12/11/2007 - 22:25.

* HJ
* General
* Suspension/Steering

I know shock absorber manufacturers would have you believe that shocks need to be replaced every 12 months or something silly like that, but how long do they last in the real world? Around the suburbs on paved roads, that is. My front ones are at least 300,000km old, maybe as much as 400,000 and yet they feel quite ok. Not floaty or wallowy and when you go over bumps there are no crashes or bangs. Everything seems to behave just fine. On the rare occasion I have locked the brakes there is no wheel hop. If I gave it a hard time for hours on a rough road that might be a different story, but for the sort of low speed driving around the suburbs it =seems= okay. Am I missing something?

Mate the bottom line is smooth/comfort ride and "agile" handling are contradictory. Basically the more agility/handling prowess you achieve, the more comfort you sacrifice. It really comes down to what sort of compromise you are willing to make.

For a reasonably street-friendly but decent handling setup, I suggest:

King or Lovells Lows with koni yellows. The off-the-shelf valving in the konis is a good match for the spring rates of the Kings and lovells. Or you can KYB excel-G's, which are about half the price, but not as good when pushed. When it comes to dampers, you get what you pay for.

Also you might wanto check out what springs Whiteline do, apparently they do some that are aimed at giving better handling than stock, but still relatively comfortable.

Then add whiteline swaybars all round, these add some roll-resistance you desperately need, but you lose less comfort than using higher springrates.

This setup will definantely feel considerably firmer than your stock suspension, but hopefully comfortable enough to you, depending on your tastes.

Or he could find a smashed 380, and get the same twin piston setup for $300

yeah was just allowing for the extras like discs etc, and wreckers markup

I say throw the smallest rim on your car like a 15', the extra sidewall means smoother ride over harsh bumps... but will cost handling. Got a set with tyres if ya want!
New shocks,
And the rear sway bar, counter the 15's Craphappiness!

I do not recomend this. 15" street tyes will roll so much it will handle horribly no matter WHAT suspension you have.

Using floppy high-profile tyres is NOT the way to soften up "too-stiff" suspension

Why on earth would you install a swaybar to increase roll resistance, and then change to a smaller rim to introduce more tyre roll?

How do progressive rate springs work?

*Now trawling for broken 380s*

Normal springs have the coils would evenly apart.

Progressive rate springs the coils are wound closer at the bottom of the spring, then spread out towards the middle, and closer to each other at the top. So for low speed cornering/suburbs the middle of the spring will be mainly used - very similar to a normal spring.

At higher speed as more weight of the car goes onto the spring, the centre compresses and the tighter wound coils do more.

Hope that makes sense.....tired and can barely see the screen.

yeah was just allowing for the extras like discs etc, and wreckers markup

I dunno if I was just lucky or what, but i got the entire front brake package for $300.

I dunno if I was just lucky or what, but i got the entire front brake package for $300.

that sounds like luck :P

Shocks generally last about 100,000km, by 160,000, they're completely rooted
That would depend on a lot wouldn't it? Pretty sure the shockers in the TR are the originals are they are still far better than some other stock 2nd gens I've been in, its done nearly 188k's now. My Corolla on the other hand, has done 182k's and the front shockers most certainly need replacing (either that or its meant to be really soft).

How soft do the shockers feel if you just push on the car from the outside? Does it move around a lot or is it quite firm?

Normal springs have the coils would evenly apart.

Progressive rate springs the coils are wound closer at the bottom of the spring, then spread out towards the middle, and closer to each other at the top. So for low speed cornering/suburbs the middle of the spring will be mainly used - very similar to a normal spring.

At higher speed as more weight of the car goes onto the spring, the centre compresses and the tighter wound coils do more.



Hey, now that's thinking.

At the moment I've decided to complement what are decent components of an essentially good car, rather than gut it and start again like a bog stock falcon (which i have done - not fun). Veradas in my opinion are a strong, well featured, comfortable and attractive car with a practical ride height and decent handling, considering it is a family sedan. The car is quite firm when given a good shove from the side; my only complaint about the suspension really is body roll, in terms of being a daily driver. When it comes time to replace the equipment, I'll use the good advice of the members here and use progressive springs with Koni FSDs (adaptive damping), but only as the OE stuff needs replacing, which should be towards the end of 2008 and start of 2009. It seems that front and rear sway bars are the best option at the moment, and will be installed by a local mechanic sometime before february.

In regard to brakes, :think: i'll talk to the mechanics when i take it in for sway bars; probably just machine them for now to get rid of the interesting 'warped' style.

Thanks to everyone for your help! More info on brakes would be great but I'll put that in another thread I think.

Darn kids :rant: pay attention and improve your reading so I will my writing.
This is extract from Damper Dyno article on Auto Speed site.

Unfortunately, the condition of a damper usually deteriorates relatively quickly because of the high levels of vibration, speed and load that it endures. If you're driving your car every day, you might not notice this gradual deterioration, because the car always feels just the same as when you drove it last time - but rest assured, it won't be as good as it once was. As an example, it isn't uncommon for car manufacturers to recommend replacing dampers every 60-70,000 kilometres. And while this might be a good suggestion for cars driven under "normal conditions", how do you know the condition of your car's dampers?

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108385/article.html

Dont forget - replace your bushes.

They are rubber, rubber deteriorates over time......

Not cheap, but will make a massive difference, especially keeping suspension in line.

How soft do the shockers feel if you just push on the car from the outside? Does it move around a lot or is it quite firm?

The rule of thumb is simple.

Press down on one corner of the car (as hard as you can) if should return to ride height quickly and without going up and down.

If it returns slowly, or goes up, down, and then centre's - shocks are on their way out.

Update:

Just did that 'push on the corner of the car' test, and both rear suspension setups creak like the quintessential shaggin' wagon.

What causes this?

Having custom made progressive rate springs will ensure a good ride, with better handling.



Will they?


I want "progressive springs", but can you tell me what they are first?

This is often the reality of customers requests for progressive springs. Marketing hype has convinced them that progressive springs "are good" but not necessarily why, where or in what way. For those of you that know the answer, now's the time to look elsewhere. If you don't know, or think you know, no one can see you so read on.

A progressive spring can be defined simply as one that does NOT have a linear rate. This means that it's rate changes depending on the amount of deflection in a way that can not be plotted via a linear relationship. Typical examples are coil springs in a conical shape, those using variable wire thickness and most commonly, those with irregular gaps between the individual coils. It is also possible and common to see all of the above used in the same design. An example of this is Commodore IRS rear coils.

Progressive spring designs for lowering cars are used to (in order of relevance)

1. keep the spring trapped (legal requirement)
2. sell to the customer (this is better just because it is progressive)
3. easy solution for the designer
4. duplicating the OE progression (e.g.; conical shape is progressive)
5. actually is better for the vehicle to have progressive rate (rarely happens)

Note that we specifically mention "lowered" in this simplified explanation. Original equipment manufacturers use progressive designs primarily at standard ride heights (also factory sports version with minimal height change) to allow for some suppleness during initial spring deflection. This allows for a heavier rate to be used once the lighter rate coils go "dead" or bind making them ineffectual. These clever designs are carefully matched to the dampers, swaybars, bushes and chassis design to create a tuned solution.

With lowered performance springs, we are more concerned with increasing the rate while lowering the ride height. Reducing the suspension travel creates its own complications but the last thing we need is a varying increased deflection rate that can not be matched by an appropriate damper or chassis mods to suit. In fact, performance applications are generally best served by a linear rate if possible.

Next time they try to sell you their " you-beaut lowered progressive" springs, ask them if they have some matching "progressive rate" shocks to suit. Also, ask the seller if the rate progression of the spring is designed to match the inherent rate progression of the vehicles chassis? For example, the EA-EL Falcon AND Honda Civic front suspension geometry has spring rate progression as part of its design. In fact, most suspension designs have sort of travel progression that leads to rate progression because the wheel moves in an arc. Adding progression to progression creates all sorts of problems so be wary of some manufacturers claims.

Whiteline says our Whiteline Springs are only progressive where and if they need to be.


http://www.whiteline.com.au/default.asp?page=/faqsprings.htm

Will they?

If I were having progressive rate springs made - I wouldnt be going to Whiteline lol

When I said to buy/consider progressive rate springs - I meant to go to a suspension place (other than whiteline/pedders) and have the whole system designed/matched. Not cheap, but perfectly doable.

As a compromise - progressive rate do their job very well.

Nothing is impossible if you have a fat bank balance.
Everyone to its own, but to spend thousands for suspension on almost 11 years old luxury family sedan worth $4000-5000 would be insane.
You lot seem to somehow miss the word money in the very first post in this thread.

I agree with you about this .......... As a compromise - progressive rate do their job very well.
but only when done properly, as described here.

Original equipment manufacturers use progressive designs primarily at standard ride heights (also factory sports version with minimal height change) to allow for some suppleness during initial spring deflection. This allows for a heavier rate to be used once the lighter rate coils go "dead" or bind making them ineffectual. These clever designs are carefully matched to the dampers, swaybars, bushes and chassis design to create a tuned solution.

Cool agreed - as I said, thats what I implied, to have a look at the whole set up.....

Which yes, having a suspension set up designed by a professional suspension builder, would easily cost $4K upwards......

However, with cars.......whenever you try and 'budget' it means you compromise on your plans. I dont compromise very well :P

If I had "4K upwards", i'd have the verada airbagged.