okay guys......the point of this thread is to get an idea from people who have/had 3rd gens with tramlining (tracking) issues and what they found to be the cause of the problem.....

I have 2 3rd gens - a 2000 Verada Wagon and a 2002 TJ Magna Ralliart - both of which suffer tramlining......now I have not had the ralliart looked at, but the Verada has been inspected 3 times by mitsu - 2 by pedders, 1 by a trusted steering and suspention specialist - none of which have bee able to isolate the cause

so far I have tried 4 different sets of tyres (the biggest culprit for tramlining) and mitsu even replaced the steering rack (under mitsu used car warranty) to see if there was any change, but there was none

i have driven a number of 3rd gens - and so far the only possible symptom i have come across is this - its a little difficult to describe on a forum, but ill do my best.....

on 3rd gens i have driven that have handled well.......without the engine running, if i try to turn the steering wheel - it is extremly heavy to turn - right from the start - besides a few millimetres play in the wheel which i do know is normal.....

on my 3rd gens....again without the engine running - if i try to turn the steering wheel - i am able to move the wheel approx 30 degrees off centre both ways before it gets almost too heavy to turn - the wheels do turn - so it is not slop within the rack or anything......we cannot find anything whatsoever that is excessivly worn or moves beyond spec.....but there definately appears to be something allowing the steering wheel to be moved so far without any great effort......

this has, so far got everyone stumped - the verada does not appear to have ever been in an accident - the ralliart appears to have had a minor impact on the rear passenger side - but both cars have identical tramlining behaviour

PLEASE HELP! - share your experiences

i did notice the issue before you bought the 'art off me..

i thought it could have simply been alignment/etc - had one done and i thought it did actually vastly improve it.. it was just as bad within a few days..

i actually think its our roads - take a drive down wellington street past tassie wash heading into town..

now, im not sayin do this with no hands on the wheel but let it drive itself so to speak.. you nearly end up in the gutter and this was the case with the RX8 i had straight after the ralliart and also with my VZ SS i have now..

Then again - ive driven truckloads of TJ/TW/TL magnas/veradas sedans/wagons while workin at mitsu and i also think that some of them were without a doubt 100 times better than what my ralliart was.. this was even the case with cars that had done up to 100,000kms more than mine..

it has me stumped too man, cant beleive no one has been able to get to the bottom of this coz you've been goin with it for a while now..

but like i said, i think our roads play a major part..

i will agree that road conditions will play a part - especially with a front wheel drive

but also - cars are a man made mechanical device....if man made it, man can fix it......

I am just like my old man in regard to car issues - i wont rest until it is fixed

i have an old 76 humber sceptre that had an issue with a lack of clutch release......not a single so called professional in town could figure it out......we replaced EVERYTHING possible to try and fix it, to no avail......then 5 years after we put the car on the road......my old man found the cause......who would believe we actually had 2 pressure plates with exactly the same issue.......in the end - we fixed it for nothing....al those part replaments and it was repairable without replacing a single thing...

but anyway.....back to the point......there MUST be a reason these 2 cars are behaving like they are......and i wont rest until it is solved......i cant help it......

Is tramlining when the steering kinda jerks around a bit when driving across tram tracks in the wet, except on normal roads?

My dad has a TJII wagon, and I took to the shops once, and I gunned it so to speak when turning onto the main road, and as I was accelerating away, the steering start flying a bit left to right like a drunken sailor, and I was under the impression that was torque steer, as I was under acceleration, but now I think it was a similar experience to to wet tram tracks. Under regular driving I never had anything of the sort happen, unless I was actually on wet tram tracks.

tramlining or tracking is where the car will (under normal driving conditions) try to steer itself to try and follow cracks etc in the road and is USUALLY caused by misaligned wheels..

i wouldnt say its a violent type of steering wheel movement, more just annoying but can also be quite dangerous as it can sometimes take you by surprise..

excessive/voilent movement of the steering wheel under accelleration where the front wheels are struggling to gain/maintain traction is, as you said, torque steer - not related to the problem of tramlining as all FWD cars with enough power to get the wheels spinning will suffer from torque steer..

edit* it has nothing to do with tram tracks in the wet though, i guess its called tramlining because a tram would follow the tracks regardless.. bit like how a car would try and follow the cracks/ruts in the road

but also - cars are a man made mechanical device....if man made it, man can fix it......

if only it was that simple :doubt:

I have a 2003 TJ AWD and it has a very very very minor case of this. On certain roads it basically steers itself. However, if its not your wheel alignment then im not sure what it is. Could it be wheel Camber? I also heard sometimes it can be traced back to the suspension when the car is lowered...are yours lowered?

Cheers.

Hmmm. Steering weight is a function of front end camber and castor. Tyre type and age can also effect this to a lesser degree (more aggressive tread block design or a new tyres will always be heavier than less aggressive blocks and nearly worn out tyres).

Tramling can be caused by front end camber, alignment, road surface, some tyre tread patterns, and ultra low profile tyres will exaggerate (but not cause) the effect.

I live in Canberra and in 30 years driving round here have rarely noticed the effect. But Sydney and Melbourne roads are a revelation - tramlining even on 60 series tyres on some roads, even when the whole front end was perfectly set up and fine here in Canberra. When visting my Mum in TAS I can't honestly say I noticed tramlining anywhere on the whole island.

So for the tramlining, given that you have had the front ends checked over and over on two different cars, that seems to leave us with tyres and road surface. Are both your cars running the same brand and model of tyre??

For steering weight, what do your suspension setup sheets show for the castor setting? And how old are your tyres?

Since putting 235/45/17s (replacing RE92 205/65/15s) on my car over a year ago, it has suffered tramlining. I have found that while a poor alignment can exacerbate the problem, a wheel alignment cannot completely fix it (I have them done every 6 months or so). According to a little bit of research I have done, low profile wide tyres with a directional pattern is the cause which would make sense to me because it never happened until I put these tyres on. Wide tyres with the lower profile and therefore stiffer sidewall are more susceptible to following road camber.

Mine does it to, but only on certain roads (which I don't travel on alot). Has anyone tryed to put a camber kit in to improve this? There are also a lot of wheelaligners that don't know what they are doing or have no trade qualifications out there. I am a qualified wheelaligner and we tend to get this problem in lowerd falcons alot, the cure is usually to reduce the negative camber. I haven't tried this myself but only because it's not a big problem to me.

My girlfriends '99 TH Magna has a pretty decent case of tramlining. I got her to 'wiggle' the steering wheel while i watched the steering rack from under the bonnet. There didnt appear to be any slack at all because the small movements were still translated to the wheels.

I think it might be a part thats only affected under the higher stress conditions like when the car is in motion.

In my previous car, an '84 Peugeot 505 suffered from extreme tramlining, so much that staying in my lane on the freeway was harder than trying to eat ten 'No Disrespect Burger's' from BBNT's.

My friend and i were able to fix it though. There was a medium sized rubber disk called a Steering Flector Ring which was located on the steering column just above the steering rack. It was completely cactus, so we just simply replaced it. Problem 100% gone.

Just wondering if there is something similar in a Magna?

The tramlining you are experiencing would be the tyres causing it, low profile wide tyres are more susceptible.
If the suspension and alignment are okay it is just a price you pay for wide, low profile, modern tread patterns, just be aware of it and try to forget it.
Tramlining is nothing compared to driving a car years ago with cross ply tyres on a wet cobbled road....now that was exciting, NO control what-so-ever lol

The tramlining you are experiencing would be the tyres causing it, low profile wide tyres are more susceptible.
If the suspension and alignment are okay it is just a price you pay for wide, low profile, modern tread patterns, just be aware of it and try to forget it.
Tramlining is nothing compared to driving a car years ago with cross ply tyres on a wet cobbled road....now that was exciting, NO control what-so-ever lol

Mate - the verada doesnt have low profile tyres

the tyres that are on it are the same tyres that we used to have on our TJ Wagon.......and that handled like a dream - only reason i didnt pick up on the tramlining of this car was it was only driven on smooth roads....didnt have time for a proper test drive.....same with the ralliart - i didnt even drive it prior to buying it......my missus did the test drive....

please dont bore me with comments like that - I have been driving for 15 years....i think i know a bit about how a car should handle

the purpose of this thread was as my first post implied - im after peoples own experiences with 3rd gens and tramlining - and whether or not they got to the bottom of thier issues

but then again, i shoulda known what sort of comments i would get.......same old same old.......everyone has an opinion but very few actually touch on the real purpose of the thread....:rant:

How worn is your steering rack? Does it leak or rattle? I ask this because i replaced my rack in my old TF and the small amount of tramlining it had previously was reduced markedly. The steering feel firmed up quite a bit as well. So maybe it could be a worn rack? But then again... 2 cars doing a similar thing with different specs is odd. :confused:

Have you got aftermarket rims?

The off set could be wrong changing the weight of the steering.
I had this happen when changing rims on another car. only an in bigger but hearly 2in wider,throwing the track out. It nearly used to pull the steering wheel out of your hands!

Penrith is real bad 17's on my TR tramline too. Not lowered, same track 1in bigger and 1in wider.

Hope this helps, not been said before.

EDIT: Just read profile, NO WHEEL MODS, sorry.

yeah - just got standard rims, standard tyres.......only mods suspention wise to the verada are sports front springs kinds standard height heavy duty rear springs and changeover to new Monroe GT Gas struts and shocks.........it handled the same before i changed the suspention, it handles the same after - ralliart is stock as a rock....

steering rack has already been replaced as per first post....it has had 4 different sets of tyres with no impact on handling.......current tyres are Michelin XM1........a good tyre for thier money....same tyres were on my old TJ - she hadnded like a dream!

ill keep plugging away at it........i have picked up a set of camber bolts and it is getting them fitted with a wheel align and see if we can improve on the existing camber (from memory it is within spec but will have a go)....even if it only changes the feel at least it is a start!...lol

Im interested in getting monroe GT Gas shocks in the future, how did you find them compared to stock in terms of ride/comfort and handling/roll?

Cheers,

Ollie

they are a suprisingly good ride in the front.....with the sports springs....but the rears are wayy too soft...they are being replaced soon...just havnt decided on what with yet though

I have a TJII and didn't have a problem with 15x6 rims but do have a problem since I put on 17x7 rims. I've experienced the same issue with other makes of cars when going to wider tyres/rims and have never been able to fully resolve it without going back to thinner rims. Best I can suggest is to try increasing your front tyre pressure. I now run 40psi in 235x45x17 Yokahamas instead of the 34, 36 or 38 I used to run. Has helped but not eliminated the problem.

I think the problem relates to the width of the tyre and the changing surface of the road leveraging the tyres. I find some roads perfect and yet the same locations always give tramlining problems - uneven surface of the road is the common denominator.

40c

okay, just a bit of an update

had it in at the local steering specialist - fitted camber bolts and brought the camber in to half a degree negative camber (i think thats the right term....well, wheels leaning in at the top anyway)......made sure the wheel alignment was spot on - tyres are good.......another check over the steering and suspention........and the verdict is:

still the same.......

feel has improved - steering is now slighly heavier - is more direct.....but that bloody tramlining is still there in all its fury........bugger.......the steering joint aknowledges there is an issue there, but cant pinpoint the cause......

until i read everything you have tried to do to fix this issue i was going to say it sounds very muhc like 'bump steer' albeit not caused by a sudden change in road geometry

surely this woudnt have been an issue and especially since the car is all but stock bump steer is unlikely, but big contriutors to it are camber and toe - both whihc you have rectified

the underlying cause of bump steer is the suspension geomtry is working outside its threshold not in safety but in arch.

as the front wheels are pushed up by a bump the camber is dramatically increased due to the design parameters of the suspension. toe is also effected tos oem degree all dependant on the bump.

how level are the front lower control arms when stationary?

i know on older 2nd gens that they wear the outside of the tyre a great deal more, but also dont suffer this issue? if so it owld stand to reason to have no camber or even +.5 degree camber when stationary and see if this had an effect on the tramlining? bump steer is a relationship between roll-centre, F-LCA and preset camber/caster/toe all which make the car very susceptable to following the road grain then going forwrds

thought id add it, though its probably already been looked at.

Lionel
Good luck

tramlining!
What tyre pressure are you running?
Try experimenting with lower front tyre pressures - like 28 psi. Lower presure will allow the wheel that hits the irregularity to flex more in the sidewall, rather than kick at the steering wheel. Thats why low profile tyres make the problem worse.

Tramlining is usually caused by one wheel being free to some extent to follow an irregularity in the road by itself, and pulling on the steering wheel. A check for play with the wheels off the ground might not reveal anything in the rack bushes, tie rod ends or lower suspension arms, but under load any movement is accentuated. If it really bothers you, try solid bushes in the lower arm, and more solid rack bushes. Replace tie rod ens if they are at all suspect. The steering will be more direct, with less relative movement of one wheel compared to the other under load, but there will be more feedback through the steering wheel, which some people interpret as harshness.

Here's a really old method of checking for slop in the steering.
Jack both front wheels off the ground.
Lie down in front of the car.
With one foot push on one wheel - at mid height.
At the same time, push on the wheel on the other side, at mid height. Use a lot of force.
Any movement of the wheels in opposite directions should be evident.
If there is movement, check ball joints, tie rod ends and steering rack. A second person looking on may be able to spot where the movement occurs.

I hope this helps.

PS. The fact that you can turn the wheel 30 degrees each way with the engine off indicates there is some slack somewhere . . . . .

If the car has done 200,000 Km or so I'd suspect the ball joints.

Here's a really old method of checking for slop in the steering.
Jack both front wheels off the ground.
Lie down in front of the car.
With one foot push on one wheel - at mid height.
At the same time, push on the wheel on the other side, at mid height. Use a lot of force.
Any movement of the wheels in opposite directions should be evident.
If there is movement, check ball joints, tie rod ends and steering rack. A second person looking on may be able to spot where the movement occurs.

I hope this helps.


It's great that you're trying to help, but mate, this threads 4 months old.

:nuts: :bowrofl: :rant:

Does that mean you fixed the problem?

Wanna share??

well the OP doesnt even have the affected vehicle anymore lol.. not sure if he got it sorted in the end or not..

WELL!!!!

Wasted breath on my part then!!:bowrofl:

Well I found it interesting, will give the lower tyre pressure idea a try.:)

Ben is correct, I have sold the vehicle, the tramlining drove me nuts and i just had to get rid of it......but in the end, no i never got it sorted, i tried different tyres, different tyre pressures, had the entire steering and suspention looked at by 3 different places, Mitsu even replaced the steering rack (under used car warranty) to see if it would help, but nothing that was tried made an difference whatsoever to its handling

I have come to learn that tramlining is quite common in the 3rd gens, amazingly most people see it as a normal characteristic of the car

i loved the car but certainly wont miss its handling - i now own a 380 which has excellent handling, so i can forget about it now and feel for the new owner of the verada

Sorry to hear about the ex 3rd gen and its problems not being resolved.
Maybe it just Mitsu overdoing the soft rubbery bits in the suspension and steering to isolate the driver from noise, vibration and harshness.
Drove a rental 380 for 2 weeks a while back. Excellent steering, no tramlining evident, just point and squirt. Excellent engine and auto gearbox. You just don't feel that the thing has ABS and traction control until you realise that no matter how hard you try with the throttle and brakes, you can't get it to squeal the tyres!
What will the 380 be like in 10 years time though, when I can affort to buy one? LOL

I've been chasing this down on our TW for about six months. It is a combination of the stupidly soft front lower control arm bushing (rear one on arm) and ridiculously soft control arm bracket to body bushes.
I haven't been able to find a solution for either in urethane, at the stage now of considering buying a used control arm and bracket, throwing it at a machinist and telling them to make me some bushes. The aftermarket needs to step up and fix this, it's going to be a HUGE market very soon.
If you don't believe it's the bushes, get under the car with a screwdriver, you can push the rear of the control arm and it's bracket an easy 10mm....imagine what road loads do!

Regards, Andrew.

heres something interesting. my 3rd gen did it occasionly once i put 19x8.5 wheels on with 245's back to stocks and it went away if it helps. and it was usualy under accelloration. (not torque steer)

Tramlining is a problem if you don't expect it, the car tries to dart all over the place. Its just steering feedback. Its worse with low profile tyres, or wide tyres, or high pressure in the tyres. Ever wondered why Formula 1 tracks are designed dead smooth? lol

Stay away from low profile wide tyres, and keep the tyre pressure somewhere reasonable. If you have 50 profile tyres with lots of pressure be prepared to hang on to the steering wheel real tight! lol

The general consensus seems to be that 3rd gens are much more prone to tramlining than 380s.

With my old TE V6 with 225/50 17 tyres (and Kings superlows front & lows back) I never had a hint of tramlining.

With my 380 I went from 16s (one day) to 17s (my old TE rims & tyres) to 235/40 18s to 245/35 19s to the current 245/30 20s.

No tramlining at all until the current 245/30 20s (with 40PSI in them), now it tramlines like a bastard.

So Max might be right, at least for 380s - very low profile tyres & highish pressures = tramlining.

Its a design problem with McPherson strut suspension. Well known from its early design days. Just too much distance between the supporting ball joint at the bottom and the bearing at the top. Its made worse by manufacturers using soft rubber bushes to isolate the car from the road. And made worse again by people who put on low profile tyres with high pressure to protect their alloy rims. You can't get around it. Now if you replaced the whole front end with double wishbone suspension (or torsion bars -think VW beetle front end) with solid steel bushes, like a proper race car, the problem would go away. Of course, you would feel every irregularity on the road through the steering wheel.
My wife's stock standard 2004 Lancer showed tramlining from the word go, on its stock 185/65 X14 Yokohama tyres if I put in the normal pressure I like, 32 psi. If I drop them to the recommended pressure (29 psi) the problem mostly goes away. Gives the tyres more flex in the sidewalls I guess.

Stay away from low profile wide tyres, and keep the tyre pressure somewhere reasonable.

I go with this,
Originally my second gen had 14" wheels and no sign of tramlining, upgraded to 17" and the tramlining started immediately and got worse as the tyres wore.

This might sound weird but I think there is also a tank-slap effect coming in to play as well.

I go with this,
Originally my second gen had 14" wheels and no sign of tramlining, upgraded to 17" and the tramlining started immediately and got worse as the tyres wore.

Possibly due to the lower profile tyres on the 17" rims and higher pressure allowing for less flex in the sidewalls. I've noticed that the 2.6 TS with 185X75X14 doesn't do it at all, while the 3.0 V6 TS wirh 205X65X15 does it a bit, running the same tyre brand and the same 32 psi pressures. Not much difference in width and profile, yet noticeably different in the tramlining department.

I'd hate to drive any second gen with 20" wheels, 45 profile and 45 psi tyres and hit a road irregularity. I would need fresh underwear. lol