For insurance purposes i'm steering away from the turbo path for the time being and staying strictly N/A...

What mods for an N/A Magna would yeiled the best (throw you back in your seat) torque and overall hp increases combined?

Thought's & suggestions most welcome, Thanx in advance!

first off have you invested in all the usual products?
k&n CAI
exaust
headders


things you should look in to..

Ignition timing..
cam timing.
fuel management
computer system^

mod cams
port n polish
injectors.. tuned with your porting

SUspention set up..


how much money you have to spend or want to spend?

I was thinking more like RPW: Extractors, Stage 1 Cam, Oversize (or Twin) TB, rising rate FPR (FSE) etc combined with my current 3.5L and get it bored/stroked out to 3.8L?

Anything else that will give substantial N/A gains in torque and overall horses???

*Note: I allready have - Sports Exhaust, K&N Panel, Kings Super Lows, Whiteline Rear Sway Bar & Front Strut Tower Brace.

*bump*

Your thought's Mitsiman, Booya?

buy a Ralliart? Joking.. you're car is probably better anyway, hmm..... ;)

the way ive done it, and the way id do it all over again,

Stage 1:
-Muffler
-CAI
-throttle body (twin maybe :D)
-extractors
-piggyback / haltech or equilivent
Approx power from a 3.5L, 170-185hp

stage 2:
-Port / Polish
-degree cams (not replacing yet)
-high compression pistons
-re shape the combustion chambers
approx power now: 230hp wheels

stage 3
-new cams
-3" exhaust
-further porting/polishing
-running AVGAS full time :lol:
approx power 280 upwards.

im up to stage 3 8)

dont quote me on the power figures, BUT these are the figures ive been getting via those mods in those order :p

Ben,

Booya,
What fuel you running with at stage 2?

Premium / BP Ultimate - 98 Octane .... with or without octane booster?

Booya,
What fuel you running with at stage 2?

Premium / BP Ultimate - 98 Octane .... with or without octane booster?

Ultimate + booster 8)

but traveling to adelaide it has used just normal ULP + booster with no problems :oops: well, no mechnical problems,

only problems i get are decreased fuel economy, (try 285km @ 140km/hour = 62LT :oops: :oops: :oops: ) and a bit of a burble/tendacy to back fire 8) hahaha... but yer, premium + booster is more then enough.

If tuned right, could you possibly get away with just 98 octance stuff i.e. BP Ultimate by itself without booster at stage 2?

It'd be nice if I could mod my car's engine to a reasonable point without having to have a drastic increase in fuel costs!

Remember he's asking about mods specific to torque.

Mods specific to torque when staying N/A are (apart from the obvious basics, which might not add torque, but are necessary to facilitate other mods)

Displacement increase - probably the most effective way to get torque in an n/a motor is via this. It can be done by boring or stroking.

Cam work, you can get cams custom made to specifically aid low end, mid or high end torque...

Compression increase can help as well.

There are other ways..but they're the main ones

Also ultimate + booster will give you 99-100 octane....it's like an exponential curve.

All that work, would it = getting a V8 under the bonnet?

If tuned right, could you possibly get away with just 98 octance stuff i.e. BP Ultimate by itself without booster at stage 2?

It'd be nice if I could mod my car's engine to a reasonable point without having to have a drastic increase in fuel costs!

if tuned right, you can do what ever you want to do.

the only reason i use booster, is cos the fuel in the NT is prolly dodgy, so im just saving myself :lol:

your talking about increasing costs?? heheh.. ill let ya in on a secret.

try using LMS.. its a racing fuel rated at no less than 103 or 130 octane.. i tell ya what.. we put 40lt in the booya mobile, and pwar!!! did this pussy purr!!! ask aaron!!!

oh forgot to add, LMS fuel is $6.60 per litre :oops:

yep, 280bucks went down the gurgler litterly on that friday night :lol: :lol:

damn, that some expensive fuel!!!!

damn, that some expensive fuel!!!!

yes, but in all honestly, this stuff was worth an extra 30hp at the wheels!!! no kidding!! dallas sat there, tuned it while we were driving,

dragged a VX SS with some exhaust mods and breathing mods, and we ate that son of a biach... we even had 4 adults in the might booya mobile :lol: :lol: and it raped a VX SS.. a 3.0L magna ate a "big block 5.7L V8" :lol: :lol:

40L of LMS fuel = 280$
gold paint job on a magna = $5000
The Owner face of a modified VX SS after being raped by a 3.0L N/A magna = PRICELESS :badgrin: :badgrin:

How about answering questions Booya?

Sorry...but lately it's just been a crapload of hype from you and you haven't been offering much help.

This is an observation, not a flame, so don't take it as such.

Akko -if you come for a cruise on the monday coming - i will take you for a spin in my car - and explain teh mods on my 3.5L and let you decide for yourself - beats trying to type the effect on each of the mods over here

Manual

Akko -if you come for a cruise on the monday coming - i will take you for a spin in my car - and explain teh mods on my 3.5L and let you decide for yourself - beats trying to type the effect on each of the mods over here

Manual

Done - lets do that!

Here is what I would recomend for shall we say the ultimate N/A 3.5 Magna.

Take Malcolms car, steal the keys and don't give it back :D j/k

Now back to being serious - for what I woudl call the ultimate street car which woudl not necessitate special fuels - this is what I would do.

(A) Basic Package

- K&N Rampod with cold air induction
- RPW high flowed throttle body
- RPW Race Extractors
- Replacement of rear muffler to lukey or equivelent.

(B) 1st level of above basic improvmeents

- Fitment of FSE Fuel pressure regulator
- Fitment of Greddy E-Manage system

(C) Now we are getting serious time but still external mods

- Fitment of ported and polished heads either stage 1 or 2
- Fitment of stage 1 camshafts
- Fitment of our new parallel twin throttle body kit

(D) And the final coupe de grace

- Fitment of 10.5 : 1 High compression pistons - (Still perfect with 98 RON Fuel)
- Bored and stroked to 3.8 litre (Seperate to piston upgrade but can be done at the same time compression increased to 11 : 1)
- Fitment of stage 2 or larger camshafts with valve spring upgrade
- Head porting work to stage 3 RPW specs (Same as our TT Magna)
- Further engine work like conrods, ARP Main stud and head stud kits are optional as well depending upon how far you wanted to go.

Essentially this is the options we currently have for the N/A people on the engine side only which is really a lot of options.

Anyway I hope this helps out. :D

Dave that helps heaps!

Do you have an approx cost for each stage? ... how far would say $5000 get me down this path, what stage approx?

Thanks

isnt lms, le mans grade fuel that they use?

How far (what stage) could you go to with such N/A mods before you'd kill a TJ Auto transmission???

For around a $5k bracket you would get the Basic, first stage and some of the 2nd stage.

For around a $5k bracket you would get the Basic, first stage and some of the 2nd stage.

And how much approx for the total N/A package mentioned there, especially including the bore/stroking out to 3.8L ???

akko, I think an important thing with regard to your worries about cost of fuels to run the same as booya is that he has said elsewhere he is running massive 14.5 :1 compression, that comp would require at least 98 octane. stock pistons have only 9.0:1 on magnas and you dont even need 95 octane unless you go over 9.5:1. you cant up compression by shaving the heads on these either, bec it throws the alignment of the manifolds out, (ive already asked).
the budget you are talking about around 5'000$ would probably extend to the head and cam work over and above the usual changes but I doubt would cover internal changes, so you dont need to worry about special fuels.
The other thing is if you did get to internal mods and end up spending much more than you first planned and going whole hog..as we always do :D , focussing on boring and stroking, boring will make the engine have greater displacement but remain just as revvy, stroking will give far greater gain in torque but could end up less willing to rev, similar to a commodore or falcon.

I forgot to mention also that by the time you went to boring and stroking you would most likely go beyond the 200kw safe limit that the auto is meant to be able to take. I reckon for your budget and to keep nicely with what the auto could take go with the RPW stage 2 including mild cam and head work, see what that dynoes at and drives like before going to the internals which are meant to be already very tough on these engines.

Spending money to get the job done right including everything i want the first time isn't out of the question...just need to know how much id be up for exactly first!

Prolly between $8000-$10000 is the most i'd ever want to be spending on N/A engine mods, but then again that all depends on how much it would cost to get to stage "D" of what Dave outlined with the boring/stroking and if that could be achieved for $8000 then great but this might not be a realistic budget for achieving such a modification level!

Some may say i'm dreaming, thats possibly what Dave's thinking right at this very point in time too but give me some idea of prices and we'll talk some more from there.

I forgot to mention also that by the time you went to boring and stroking you would most likely go beyond the 200kw safe limit that the auto is meant to be able to take. I reckon for your budget and to keep nicely with what the auto could take go with the RPW stage 2 including mild cam and head work, see what that dynoes at and drives like before going to the internals which are meant to be already very tough on these engines.

hence my earlier question that nobody has responded too as yet... :D

How far (what stage) could you go to with such N/A mods before you'd kill a TJ Auto transmission???

akko, I think an important thing with regard to your worries about cost of fuels to run the same as booya is that he has said elsewhere he is running massive 14.5 :1 compression, that comp would require at least 98 octane. stock pistons have only 9.0:1 on magnas and you dont even need 95 octane unless you go over 9.5:1. you cant up compression by shaving the heads on these either, bec it throws the alignment of the manifolds out, (ive already asked).
the budget you are talking about around 5'000$ would probably extend to the head and cam work over and above the usual changes but I doubt would cover internal changes, so you dont need to worry about special fuels.
The other thing is if you did get to internal mods and end up spending much more than you first planned and going whole hog..as we always do :D , focussing on boring and stroking, boring will make the engine have greater displacement but remain just as revvy, stroking will give far greater gain in torque but could end up less willing to rev, similar to a commodore or falcon.

The boring and stroking GREATLY depends on their ratio to each other...if the motor is undersquare (bore > stroke, just be warned..I might have this around the wrong way lol) then it will remain revvy as this is what the motor is naturally like

If it is square (bore = stroke) this will have the greatest "all round" feel to the motor, most performance cars are square (to my knowledge).

Then you have oversquare (stroke > bore) which will result in a very low end torque oriented motor with not as much power at high revs....tractors, big trucks, ship motors are good examples of these.

So boring and stroking done in the same ratio as the original motor should theoretically keep it the same, but with more power (this is theorising here) but obviously there will be some differences...but you'd know what to expect.

To do the engine work alone being boring, stroking and modifying on the short motor is easily 3 - 4k worth of work.

As a reasonable budget the 3.5 can easily be producing around 230kw at the flywheel N/A with good solid mods and still be a driveable vehicle without any race fuel requried.

You can run higher HP at the wheels in a N/A form because it does not hav ethe same torque loading as a turbo so on a N/A car I wuold feel comfortable with around 220kw at the flywheel without being concerned.

And how long would one expect to be without there pride 'n' joy for, for such work to be performed on it(?), A guy still has to get to work each day to pay the bills afterall. :-)

You can run higher HP at the wheels in a N/A form because it does not hav ethe same torque loading as a turbo so on a N/A car I wuold feel comfortable with around 220kw at the flywheel without being concerned.

Well.. since power is a function of torque and engine speed, technically when you produce 220kW ATW naturally aspirated vs 220kW ATW forced induction, the torque load at peak power is identical.

But I would imagine the forced induction would result in a much flatter torque curve, so more torque for longer, verses the N/A motor.

I thought the "boosting" nature of a turbocharged motor would mean that more torque kicks in at once and that the N/A engine would actually have the flatter torque curve....but then again I might be completely wrong here so please feel free to correct me if I am wrong!

I think you will find that in real world results, the Turbo motor will produce more torque than the NA motor. (but all this depends on what mods and how) :) Thats just my veiw anyway :D .

I'm basing this on the fact that you can produce more power per revolution with forced induction.

So we agree, the turbo motor would produce more torque than an N/A motor with the same ammount of horses...

Therefore damage to transmission and other driveline type commponents in Magnas is more likely to occur at an earlier (lesser) hp rating on a turbo vehichle as compared to an N/A motor, so you can push N/A slightly further before the power and associated torque levels then become too much for the otherwise stock components such as the auto-box etc!

Hope that makes sense?

I think that is what I was saying earlier in a round abuot way but again to confirm

200kw N/A will not have the same torque curve as a 200kw Turbo car because of the efficiency of a turbo car and the torque characteristics of it.

And as with everything we do these days - we would build an exchange motor so your downtime is limited to the engine changeover only

akko, I think an important thing with regard to your worries about cost of fuels to run the same as booya is that he has said elsewhere he is running massive 14.5 :1 compression, that comp would require at least 98 octane.

13.1 : 1 is what its running at.. not 14.5? where did you get that from? :-k

sorry was out on that one booya, but that is still some seriious squeeze!!!, :shock: :) in fact you probably could fill it with diesel, NO dont try Thator youl be joining us the thread on fouled oxy sensors! :(

If someone had say, a budget of $20,000, would they be better off getting a 3lt or a 3.5lt? I have seen that you can get a TE manual w/less than 100,000kms for around $10-$11k. So that would leave $9k-$10k left to spend, minus $3k for rims, shocks and suspension.
Mitsi man, how many kw's do you think someone could get out of the engine? What mods would these be?