hey all

the injectors in our magnas, are they high or low impedence??? Im still hunting more fuel and putting off making a custom fuel rail as long as i can

Jase

i think blackbeard has a bigger fuel rail ?

maybe see where he got his from

Blackbeard has the stock fuel rails but bigger injectors from memory

Just did a bit of a search online and it looks like they might be low impedence injectors...

might be worth giving mitsu a call....They may know?????????????

Their coil resistance @ 20 deg. Celsius is 13-16 ohms.

Edit: They are high impedance

http://www.injector.com/faq.php

Just out of curiosity, whats your current setup?

Just out of curiosity, whats your current setup?

You mean that blown aircraft engine he has under the bonnet?

TZABOY: I think I might've mentioned this before, but have you thought about getting a 2nd hand inlet manifold and a pair of fuel rails, and machining them to accept 14mm injectors?

You mean that blown aircraft engine he has under the bonnet?

Lmao.. i meant what is the current fuel system setup.

What size in mm are stock magna injectors?

I dont know exactly what your fuel needs are yet though...

Hey mate,

i think i met you at the gold coast autosalon with my mechanic dan a few months back

i have a set of 550cc high impedence injectors i bought through him just recently and i believe he has access to 11mm injectors up to 650cc that should bolt straight into your fuel rail without any issues. i have a set for mine in my cupboard draw as i type this :)

if your interested let me know and i can find out details

You mean that blown aircraft engine he has under the bonnet?

TZABOY: I think I might've mentioned this before, but have you thought about getting a 2nd hand inlet manifold and a pair of fuel rails, and machining them to accept 14mm injectors?
if i cant get injectors, then thats what is going to happen

Hey mate,

i think i met you at the gold coast autosalon with my mechanic dan a few months back

i have a set of 550cc high impedence injectors i bought through him just recently and i believe he has access to 11mm injectors up to 650cc that should bolt straight into your fuel rail without any issues. i have a set for mine in my cupboard draw as i type this :)

if your interested let me know and i can find out details
yes yes i do remember you :D

mate if you can source anything that would be great. chasing a contact in the states atm but would be awesome to get something locally. only thing im worried about is cost. 14mm injectors are like 70-80 a pop, i dont want to be paying over 1000 for a set of 6 when i can get a custom rail and injectors made for the same price

keep me posted mate

im pretty confident it wont be that much mate :)

i had the same problem trying to get a hold of decent flow injectors that werent friggin 14mm to suit my puppy.

how big did you want them?

im pretty confident it wont be that much mate :)

i had the same problem trying to get a hold of decent flow injectors that werent friggin 14mm to suit my puppy.

how big did you want them?
gotta be over 400cc's at a minimum. what are you using in your car?

How much are you running out of headroom out of interest?

How much are you running out of headroom out of interest?
i'm maxxed out atm heath

Hmmm...

You have considered the usual suspects (rising rate FPR etc?)

Going larger injectors means pretty much getting rid of the standard computer and going full standalone.

I had a similar issue in a Saab turbo (with stupendous boost) that I solved by getting clever with 4 extra injectors - you measure the injector pulse width, and use this to map an extra injector - but what you also do is use this injector pulse (per injector) to enable the correct injector - you end up with 4 (or 6 or whatever) extra injectors, setup as a multipoint system.

Injectors were mounted in holders made by a company called injection perfection (years and years ago) and driven using ignition modules (indestructable) IIRC - crude, but it worked very well.

Other option is to go to larger injectors and intercepting (and modifying) the pulse width. Think Jaycar pulse width adjuster with my multiplex enable circuit.

I'll draw you up a schematic if you are interested.

Going larger injectors means pretty much getting rid of the standard computer and going full standalone.



Don't know about the SMT6, but I'm running larger injectors on a piggyback ECU at the moment and fuel isn't going to be a problem in my car until I'm pushing 400hp (which I'd never even consider without going to a full replacement ECU).

Interesting... Do you know how it is doing load site adjustment on the magna ECU?

You are running an emangle aren't you? Hmmm....

Interesting... Do you know how it is doing load site adjustment on the magna ECU?

You are running an emangle aren't you? Hmmm....

Don't know too much about it, but from what I was told - the emanage can handle larger injectors quite easily (obviously - Dave from RPW was running emanage blue for quite a while as well), I think it's just a matter of telling the emanage (through the software interface) the flow rate of the original injectors, and the flow rate of the new injectors and I think it must adjust the signal accordingly.

Does that make any sense to you?? only makes a little bit of sense to me.

Hmmm... Unless it can drive the injectors (or intercept) itself rather than using the standard ECU, the only way to do this is to fool the computer into thinking engine load is lower than it is (hence load adjustment).

I'll have to see if I can get hold of a manual for those.

a little of topic but if i may ask i have a TF 98' manual was wondering how much bigger injectors would cost and how big it would b recommended for me (i hav lots of plan's for my magna)
would i need to get a piggy back or aftermarket ECU?

Don't know about the SMT6, but I'm running larger injectors on a piggyback ECU at the moment and fuel isn't going to be a problem in my car until I'm pushing 400hp (which I'd never even consider without going to a full replacement ECU).
been told the SMT6 will handle bigger injectors, my tuner said its a pretty good piggyback to work with.

Hmmm... Unless it can drive the injectors (or intercept) itself rather than using the standard ECU, the only way to do this is to fool the computer into thinking engine load is lower than it is (hence load adjustment).

I'll have to see if I can get hold of a manual for those.

I've got the manual for the software, but I'm sure that would only explain how to use the software interface, not how it works. The software manual is the only piece of GReddy documentation I've ever seen which isn't in Japanese


been told the SMT6 will handle bigger injectors, my tuner said its a pretty good piggyback to work with.

Easy peasy then ;)

a little of topic but if i may ask i have a TF 98' manual was wondering how much bigger injectors would cost and how big it would b recommended for me (i hav lots of plan's for my magna)
would i need to get a piggy back or aftermarket ECU?
You don't need them.

If you decide you want to spend money for some unknown reason, 6G74 3.5L injectors will suffice.

gotta be over 400cc's at a minimum. what are you using in your car?

i've got a set of 550cc's but if i up the fuel presure they are capable of 650cc ??from what i understand??

and im told they may be too large as it is at 550 even with a complete replacement haltech so im confident 440 - 550 would be fine for your application - which dan has confirmed

do you have a EMS?

i've got a set of 550cc's but if i up the fuel presure they are capable of 650cc ??from what i understand??

and im told they may be too large as it is at 550 even with a complete replacement haltech so im confident 440 - 550 would be fine for your application - which dan has confirmed

do you have a EMS?
yeah i have management. got any specs on what you're gonna use? brand? also ensure that it is 11mm oring for our fuel rail.

yeah i have management. got any specs on what you're gonna use? brand? also ensure that it is 11mm oring for our fuel rail.

If your talking about the injectors they are bosch and they are def 11mm i already have a set and fitted into my fuel rail to be 100% and there hasnt been any dramas (not that i've had them running yet though!) - im more than happy for you to grab and test fit them if/when you like :) - they come with flow graph and all the details as they are pre-tested before he sells them

Dan doesnt get back in till monday to the work shop but ill have a price and availabilty for you latest tuesday if thats not to late?

benno if you could get me the part number thats all i'll need. so they're a bosch item, how much do they flow?

there is no rush about getting the details mate, next week is fine. wont be tuning it for a couple of weeks as im waiting for my water/meth kit to come in

http://www.injectorsonline.com/indivprod.php?c=6

Try gettin in touch with these lads perhaps.

Also, do the magnas use the new style EV6 injectors?

http://www.injectorsonline.com/indivprod.php?c=6

Try gettin in touch with these lads perhaps.

Also, do the magnas use the new style EV6 injectors?

Hmmmm...... mine look like the Bosch 968's.

http://www.injectorsonline.com/img/prodimg/968.gif

hey all

the injectors in our magnas, are they high or low impedence??? Im still hunting more fuel and putting off making a custom fuel rail as long as i can

Jase


just a link for info

"Injectors fall into two broad classes in terms of their coil resistance - "low" and "high". Low resistance injectors have 2-3 ohm coils, while high resistance injectors are up around 14-16 ohms. If you are upgrading a car to larger injectors, the new injectors should be of the same resistance class as those being replaced. If you are fitting programmable management, you must make sure that the ECU will be happy with the coil resistance of the injectors"


http://autospeed.com/cms/A_0102/article.html?popularArticle
bosch
http://www.injectorsonline.com/indivprod.php?c=1

http://www.injectorsonline.com/indivprod.php?c=6

Try gettin in touch with these lads perhaps.

Also, do the magnas use the new style EV6 injectors?
tried them, they have nothing in high flow high impedence 11mm o-ring, although i never asked about a 12mm o-ring cause i could drill out the rail to suit 12mm, but 14mm is too much to remove

Denso make a 550cc in the 11mm, and they're high impedance too (theres 2 impedances available in the same injector model)

Umm.. go visit 'tweakit' in sydney mate, they should be able to order them.

Denso make a 550cc in the 11mm, and they're high impedance too (theres 2 impedances available in the same injector model)

Umm.. go visit 'tweakit' in sydney mate, they should be able to order them.
yeah, and tweakit know how to charge as well. They were going to charge me near 300 each!

yeah, and tweakit know how to charge as well. They were going to charge me near 300 each!

Far out...

yeah, and tweakit know how to charge as well. They were going to charge me near 300 each!

Well they aren't the only ones....... thats about how much I paid :redface: (also close to what RPW charge for the ones he sells), so I'm very interested to see if you and a couple of other guys do manage to come up with something better for around a third of the cost.

Just had a look at tweakits website then.

Denso 550cc/min 11mm Fuel Injector (High Impedance)
$160.00AUD (inc GST)

But it looks like you'll have to change the connectors.. these ones have the round/oval plugs i think.

been told the SMT6 will handle bigger injectors, my tuner said its a pretty good piggyback to work with.


The SMT6 has no control over any injectors apart from the 7th one. It modifies the crank angle sensor signal to lie to the ecu to adjust the fuel and timing, it's crap and that causes **** to happen to your engine.

**** off the SMT6 then fit some 400-440cc injectors as you'll never need any higher unless you want to push 600hp at the engine.

The SMT6 has no control over any injectors apart from the 7th one. It modifies the crank angle sensor signal to lie to the ecu to adjust the fuel and timing, it's crap and that causes **** to happen to your engine.

**** off the SMT6 then fit some 400-440cc injectors as you'll never need any higher unless you want to push 600hp at the engine.

A good tuner can make the interceptor work safely enough.

A good tuner can make the interceptor work safely enough.


It's not an interceptor, interceptors have any detailed control over injection and timing.

The SMT6 has no control over any injectors apart from the 7th one. It modifies the crank angle sensor signal to lie to the ecu to adjust the fuel and timing, it's crap and that causes **** to happen to your engine.



Is that just the "locked" one that comes with the sprintex kit though??? I think a few people on here (TZA included, but don't quote me on that) have had "unlocked" SMT6's installed.

It's entirely possible that the version shipped with the sprintex kit is only making use of a very small percentage of what the system is actually capable of??

Just asking because TZA claims his tuner says otherwise - and I have a fair deal of respect for the bloke who is working on your car.

Is that just the "locked" one that comes with the sprintex kit though??? I think a few people on here (TZA included, but don't quote me on that) have had "unlocked" SMT6's installed.

It's entirely possible that the version shipped with the sprintex kit is only making use of a very small percentage of what the system is actually capable of??

Just asking because TZA claims his tuner says otherwise - and I have a fair deal of respect for the bloke who is working on your car.


Mines unlocked one, it's crap, it's cheap and it should have never been used by sprintex as a controlling device, if they were working with mitsu they should have done something like capa does for there supercharger kits, supply a map that goes right onto the ECU.

the unlocked until can control fuel, that is what the boys at the workshop have told me and it will not be running a 7th injector much longer once i get some injectors to cope. the hole will be filled with the water/meth nozzle

the unlocked until can control fuel, that is what the boys at the workshop have told me and it will not be running a 7th injector much longer once i get some injectors to cope. the hole will be filled with the water/meth nozzle

Hang on, isn't the 7th injector before the SC compressor?? Everyone I've spoken to says "extra injectors" aren't for fixing a fuelling issue, they're more for keeping the supercharger from overheating.

Admittedly I don't know much about water / meth injection as a method of intercooling - but I would have thought that for it to be effective in cooling the intake air charge it would need to be introduced after the compressor, but before the cylinders (like other, more "conventional" types of intercooling). My limited understanding makes me think that if you introduced your water/meth before the compressor, the majority of it's cooling would go into cooling the compressor (which is important, especially at increased boost levels) and it would make minimal difference to the temperature of the air at the other end.

It's all too confusing for me.

Hang on, isn't the 7th injector before the SC compressor?? Everyone I've spoken to says "extra injectors" aren't for fixing a fuelling issue, they're more for keeping the supercharger from overheating.

Admittedly I don't know much about water / meth injection as a method of intercooling - but I would have thought that for it to be effective in cooling the intake air charge it would need to be introduced after the compressor, but before the cylinders (like other, more "conventional" types of intercooling). My limited understanding makes me think that if you introduced your water/meth before the compressor, the majority of it's cooling would go into cooling the compressor (which is important, especially at increased boost levels) and it would make minimal difference to the temperature of the air at the other end.

It's all too confusing for me.
im just repeating what the guys have told me.

all the heat is created in the compressor, same as a turbo. by puttng the mix in before the charger, it will cool the compressed air in and around the area, while sealing the fine tolerances within the screws which may increase the boost just that little bit. by putting it in after the charger, the mix may favour 1 cylinder after another cylinder. With the mix already being in compressed air when it leaves the charger, all cylinders receive the same mix. Its pretty much the same principal as why the 7th injector is before the charger.

It's not an interceptor, interceptors have any detailed control over injection and timing.

Sorry my bad :redface:.... i dont even know where the hell i pulled the word interceptor from lmao!! i think i meant to write 'piggyback'. :redface: lmao. Imatool :D

So thats basically all the smt6 can control then.. just fuel mapping?

There are a few inputs/outputs that the SMT6 has that aren't being used - to wit - if you mess with a load sensor of some description (not sure what they guys are using to control fuel on an emanage) you can mess with fuelling as well.

The SMT6 isn't THAT bad, just a lot that isn't (and could/should) be used.

Have a look here to see what people are doing with them (and some good indications of wiring etc).

http://www.rdtiburon.com/lofiversion/index.php/t15008.html

I did some 'learnin' on the emangle - In regards to fuelling...

http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/install/dsm_1g/Emanage_docs_DSM_1G.pdf

Subtracting fuel...

"You will be able to tweak the airflow signal input to the ECU to compensate for larger injectors at 5 different RPM points." (and more capabilities with support tool)

Adding Fuel...

"The injector harness is a little different since it doesn’t alter the airflow signal at all. This taps into each of the 6 injector signal wires and adds additional injector duty cycle on top of what the ECU is already doing. The ECU knows nothing about this additional injection. You can add additional injection based on a few different parameters, the most useful probably being boost. To do this, you must install the pressure sensor."

Hmmmm...... Very interesting. Could solve some of the issues everyone is having with underfuelling with larger pulleys... Along with extra injector (water/meth injection?) drive capability.

Food for thought, definitly. Its a hell of a lot more powerful than the SMT6.

I did some 'learnin' on the emangle - In regards to fuelling...

http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/install/dsm_1g/Emanage_docs_DSM_1G.pdf

Subtracting fuel...

"You will be able to tweak the airflow signal input to the ECU to compensate for larger injectors at 5 different RPM points." (and more capabilities with support tool)

Adding Fuel...

"The injector harness is a little different since it doesn’t alter the airflow signal at all. This taps into each of the 6 injector signal wires and adds additional injector duty cycle on top of what the ECU is already doing. The ECU knows nothing about this additional injection. You can add additional injection based on a few different parameters, the most useful probably being boost. To do this, you must install the pressure sensor."

Hmmmm...... Very interesting. Could solve some of the issues everyone is having with underfuelling with larger pulleys... Along with extra injector (water/meth injection?) drive capability.

Food for thought, definitly. Its a hell of a lot more powerful than the SMT6.

Cheers for digging that up and posting it mate. The injector harness and support tool are pretty much compulsory accessories. The bit about the pressure sensor is interesting. I wasn't aware there was a MAP sensor available for the emanage. I've been told the new emanage ultimate is leagues above the standard blue emanage in terms of features.

You are not freaking joking - ultimate is something else again!

Really good stuff like:
Knock sensing + data logging
Ignition conversion - single coil to multi-coil or direct-fire (!!)
True injector interception - 6 channels - converts group to sequential(!)
Runs two aditional injectors
TPS signal adjustment (for AT change points etc - useful for the AWD 5th gear 1,200 rpm-up-a-hill think I'm in a diesel trick...)

benno if you could get me the part number thats all i'll need. so they're a bosch item, how much do they flow?

there is no rush about getting the details mate, next week is fine. wont be tuning it for a couple of weeks as im waiting for my water/meth kit to come in

spoke to Dan and he advised the part numbers are not available because they are built to spec not to vehicle - and its trade secret lol

They would be approx $800 for a set of 440cc if you were keen

spoke to Dan and he advised the part numbers are not available because they are built to spec not to vehicle - and its trade secret lol

They would be approx $800 for a set of 440cc if you were keen
that sounds very reasonable, thanks for that! give me a week or 2 as everything has come in at once! my new brakes arrived today so that means new discs and pads! my water/meth kit is in so i have t get that b4 some1 else buys it so yeah the wallet is feeling it atm lol

that sounds very reasonable, thanks for that! give me a week or 2 as everything has come in at once! my new brakes arrived today so that means new discs and pads! my water/meth kit is in so i have t get that b4 some1 else buys it so yeah the wallet is feeling it atm lol

Keep us posted on the results of the water/meth kit mate, i'm very interested!! :)

Keep us posted on the results of the water/meth kit mate, i'm very interested!! :)
i'm interested too haha! i've been told to expect 50-60HP out of it

i'm interested too haha! i've been told to expect 50-60HP out of it

With boost increase? :shock: or without?

With boost increase? :shock: or without?
without for now. once everything is tuned at 10psi we'll be able to see if there is room to move, if there is we'll take it up a bit and make use of the fogies. Mind you, the s/c is maxxed out at 14psi so wouldnt want to make it pump more than 12psi

without for now. once everything is tuned at 10psi we'll be able to see if there is room to move, if there is we'll take it up a bit and make use of the fogies. Mind you, the s/c is maxxed out at 14psi so wouldnt want to make it pump more than 12psi

Oh ok... cool! Thats a fair gain then!! :D

Water meth has a lot of room for increased output - water on its own has a greater cooling effect, wheras methanol is for cooling + fuelling.

Biggest problem is mapping water injection - its easy enough to build a controller (I did) but its another thing to regulate the injection well - problem is with the pumps. People have managed to use fuel injectors mapped by an ECU, but you have to use bosch injectors (which have stainless steel insides) or use a mixture of water and water soluable cutting oil.

You still need to solve the problems with pressure regulation, whether you need to run the pump all the time etc etc. Diaphragm pumps have overpressure cutoff switches (useful) so combined with a resovoir (pressure vessel) you could use them - problem is, you need a higher pressure for water than fuel (due to viscosity).

Aquamist systems go close, they use a 'high speed valve' to regulate the water flow, but there is some problems with the longevity of this valve. Their pumps are a vibrating piston pump, fixed frequency.

There are some really clever things you can do with Ulka 240V pumps out of coffee machines (vary the frequency based on a map), 30 Bar pressure, but I'm still working on this - think aquamist variable injection for about $300. The biggest issue is doing the variable frequency control safely - 340V DC is not something to play with - it WILL kill you.

Cheers
Heath Young

Have I told you how much I love your posts Heath?!lol

Heath the kit im getting has a mixture controller included. the whole kit is 600 bucks thanks to our US exchange rate at the moment. From what the guy has told me, you hook it up to a boost source (or in N/A application a vaccum source) and you can program the flow in the unit provided as it is stand alone from the ECU. Once the car is tuned, begin adding mixture and tune ecu accordingly

Heath the kit im getting has a mixture controller included. the whole kit is 600 bucks thanks to our US exchange rate at the moment. From what the guy has told me, you hook it up to a boost source (or in N/A application a vaccum source) and you can program the flow in the unit provided as it is stand alone from the ECU. Once the car is tuned, begin adding mixture and tune ecu accordingly

Pardon my ignorance, but how does it work?? do you flick a switch to activate it, or is it "always on"? Whats the capacity of your water supply?

If its the kit I'm thinking of, its actually fairly well designed - nozzle is decent, good pump and good lines. The controller is available in MAP flavour (which is fine for SC'ed users) or airflow meter (even supports Karman Vortex that we use too).

I'm working on some more evil for the SC'ed people - an air-to-water intercooler, I'm sourcing cores at the moment. It will fit inside the plenum (since there is only 20mm clearance between the manifold and the bonnet :rant:

Cheers
Heath Young

Is there any risk of serious damage if the air-water intercooler core leaks inside the plenum? I know the Magnas run relatively low compression, but under a boosted situation?

If its the kit I'm thinking of, its actually fairly well designed - nozzle is decent, good pump and good lines. The controller is available in MAP flavour (which is fine for SC'ed users) or airflow meter (even supports Karman Vortex that we use too).

I'm working on some more evil for the SC'ed people - an air-to-water intercooler, I'm sourcing cores at the moment. It will fit inside the plenum (since there is only 20mm clearance between the manifold and the bonnet :rant:

Cheers
Heath Young


Sandwedge plate is it? I've talked to my tuner about it, basically lots of money on custom made parts or a simple water/meth injection system, we chose the water/meth system.

Black Beard, a little tank is placed in the engine bay, washer bottle sized with a pump in it, it will only squirt in the water/meth when under load or high rpm. A map sensor is used to to determine it and all sprintex kits have a map sensor.

Sandwedge plate is it? I've talked to my tuner about it, basically lots of money on custom made parts or a simple water/meth injection system, we chose the water/meth system.

Black Beard, a little tank is placed in the engine bay, washer bottle sized with a pump in it, it will only squirt in the water/meth when under load or high rpm. A map sensor is used to to determine it and all sprintex kits have a map sensor.

No, its not actually. I was looking at the laminova intercooler cores - very trick, but the problem is the size of the cores - 50mm in diameter (circular cores) are rather difficult to fit into the plenum without serious modifications. The pressure drop will be an issue as well, calculations show a 1psi pressure drop and a drop of 40 degrees C - quite reasonable. You can buy the cores for about $100 USD from Ebay, and they fit well inside scaffold tubing - see here - http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/175439-2f-eti-home-brew-air-water-laminova-intercooler.html.

Sports, I thought that you were going the Snow performance 2D setup... Use the map sensor and the airflow meter... I'm going a similar way, I am using my own controller (255 map points based on injector pulse width - better than a pressure sensor, as it takes into account intake temperature, barometric pressure etc etc).

Cheers
Heath Young

No, its not actually. I was looking at the laminova intercooler cores - very trick, but the problem is the size of the cores - 50mm in diameter (circular cores) are rather difficult to fit into the plenum without serious modifications. The pressure drop will be an issue as well, calculations show a 1psi pressure drop and a drop of 40 degrees C - quite reasonable. You can buy the cores for about $100 USD from Ebay, and they fit well inside scaffold tubing - see here - http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/175439-2f-eti-home-brew-air-water-laminova-intercooler.html.

Sports, I thought that you were going the Snow performance 2D setup... Use the map sensor and the airflow meter... I'm going a similar way, I am using my own controller (255 map points based on injector pulse width - better than a pressure sensor, as it takes into account intake temperature, barometric pressure etc etc).

Cheers
Heath Young


The one I'm using is the one that my tuner makes himself.

ok just got back for the fabricator, getting some funky stuff made hopefully b4 MM08 but we'll see.

***injector update***

guess what will fit with minimal modification!!?? Toyota 7M-GTE OEM injectors are 440cc, 11mm o-ring and about 3-5mm longer than our magna injectors so we can make them fit easy as! best part is a girlfriend of mine has a GTE in her soarer and is going a J motor so i can have the injectors for bugger all. only thing is they're only good for about 250kw atw's in those engines so if i want more than that, might be worth throwing in some bigger ones that suit the GTE but wait and see.

The one I'm using is the one that my tuner makes himself.

Ah, thats right, I asked you about this before :doubt: brain is currently on holidays...