Hey Everyone...

I know this has prolly been done to death...

We all have discussed the positives and negatives between the EZBOY pod box & the RPW CAI...But...

Has anyone actually removed the stock snorkel off thier magna and replaced it with a bit of pipe that runs down to the front bar..?

Would it make a difference? I would be better then a pod right? Just wondering If it would be a cheap mod that actially works...

Food For thought..
Alex

Hey mate,

I know Whitedevil for a long while was experimenting with direct CAI years ago and I think he was achieving some better results channeling it in below the bumper where the spotlights would be. I am not sure if he is still floating around.

I was a bit stupid ad left the K&N pod exposed to the engine bay which is not sensible but even then I did notice some benefits.

In my new XR8 I have had a modified CAI put in now and noticed the gains immediately... different car know but I think in all cases the colder the air you can get the better as we all know... I had to get a different filter to be sure the airflow was as even as I could get it to travel in (again K&N) over the stock filter which was designed for the original setup.

Problem is with theMagna i there aren't many options and quite a restricted area to get piping and such through... keep us posted.

if replacing the stock snorkel with a pipe and using the original filter and filter box then its ok - but if you put a pod you need to get an air box - or it woud be CAI as there will be hot air from the engine bay affecting the performance intake of the pod. so you will need a box - i suggest a Carbon Fiber box instead of the aluminum ones as they dont heat up.

i got one made for my silvia - about $250 from a bloke in clayton. looks nice and does the job.

Yee, not new issue.... :)
U mean like this (pic)?
What I do know is that last year on long trip the box collapsed a bit and hot air was entering from engine bay. This resulted in to sluggish power and 10 % higher fuel consumption (before I happened to open the bonnet :redface: ).
Current version is bit tidier, but have no pics of it.
General benefits: better throttle response, good air flow on higher RPM, slightly improved consumption.
Cost? Hmmm, few bux for the elbow, some paint. The orange pipe is aircraft heat pipe, cost unknown (expensive), internally almost dead smooth. U could use 80 mm PVC stuff as well, but it seems to mould in the heat a bit over some time.

Seeing this thread made me laugh - not because of the topic, but because I was doing a different subject search and came accross an old RPW CAI vs EZ Boy podbox thread. I had just finished reading it when I saw this thread.
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28501



...so you will need a box - i suggest a Carbon Fiber box instead of the aluminum ones as they dont heat up.Why would an alluminium box heat up when alluminium doesn't conduct heat as well as other metals. or do I have this wrong? :confused:
ie. If you place Alluminium Foil in the oven - it stays heaps colder than the metal tray it's on.
So what would be the best thing to make a box out of?
eg. ABS Plastic, Carbon Fibre, Stainless Steel, Alluminium, Sheet Metal, Fibreglass, something else?

Heat conductivity. Interesting issue. If u have any material in an oven in, say, 200 C heat - all those materials will be 200 C. How do they feel in to your hand is different - that's when conductivity comes to the game.
Think of this: u have pot of 50 deg water and Alice Springs summer day of 50 C (not really, just a sample). Cos the water conducts the heat to your skin better, it feels hotter than the air, even tho they are same temps.
So, using airbox made of material with poor conductivity will keep it cooler longer. After all, the hot air from the radiator heats up the whole engine bay eventually.
I prolly wouldn't use aluminium my self. But carbon fiber? Whhoohh, not cheap stuff.

Plastic is a poor conductor of heat so it would be up there as one of the best choices. Problem is fabrication is not an easy thing as tooling/vacuum forming/welding processes are tedious and expensive. Better to run off the stock equipment as much as possible imo.

Hey Everyone...

I know this has prolly been done to death...

We all have discussed the positives and negatives between the EZBOY pod box & the RPW CAI...But...

Has anyone actually removed the stock snorkel off thier magna and replaced it with a bit of pipe that runs down to the front bar..?

Would it make a difference? I would be better then a pod right? Just wondering If it would be a cheap mod that actially works...

Food For thought..
Alex


i made my own with 90mm tubing and ran it down to the spotlight hole and used it kind of a 'ram' it had a noticable gain rev wise and seem to take off slightly better. Fuel use wise it was about 0.5l per 100 better, these were with a k&n panel as well.

Oh and the aluminium foil question above... the aluminium should by rights be as hot as the other materials when in an oven, but when heat is removed given its very thin gauge, it will cool rapidly making it touchable almost immediately.

Metals have high heat transfer and retention, no escaping the fact.

ie. If you place Alluminium Foil in the oven - it stays heaps colder than the metal tray it's on.


Aluminum foil is literally paper thin. It's surface area is very high compared to it's total mass, so when you remove something covered in alfoil from an oven, exposing it to cool air, the heat in the alfoil is given up to the air so quickly when compared to the baking dish, or foil tray it is covering. Hence why you can pretty much remove the foil straight away without burning yourself.

Infact your example pretty much contradicts your argument. Aluminum is a very good conductor of temperature, as proven by the fact that hot alfoil cools so rapidly when exposed to cool air (and vice-versa).

*edit* beat me too it Hyper

If it helps answer yoru question i've got the nz cai which is made of plastic and basically has unrestricted airflow from the front grill in a TL and noticed no difference.

Sorry to steer this thread away from the original topic, but while I have a few members posting who seem to know what they are talking about... (and I do not profess to at all lol)

What would be the best thing to make a box out of?
Plastic, Carbon Fibre, Stainless Steel, Aluminum, Sheet Metal, Fiberglass, something else?
Seems like plastic may be the best?

+1 to CF plastic or fibreglass they tend not to get as much heatsoak as metals as the other guys said.

if you go stainless i suggest going for 304 it tends to go better for heat than say 316

Fibreglass, for the simple reason that you don't need the strength of carbon fibre (or the cost). The only major difference is the resins, one is epoxy (CF) and the other is polyester.

Fibreglass is not that hard to work with, its far easier to replicate parts than plastic welding etc. and where vacuum moulding + blow moulding are too expensive for small-run builds. This is the main reason why aftermarket bumpers are made this way - cheap.

You dont want to build an airbox out of something that has a high thermal mass - metal has a much larger thermal mass than plastic - it stores, absorbs and conducts heat very well.

Plastic stores, absorbs and conducts very badly.

I'd love to get the dimensions of the pod box and knock one up out of fibreglass - could be worthwhile.

id hit ezboy up for some rough dimensions he seems to have this sorta stuff sorted

Any metal is a no...no... Bad for heat dissapation. (alluminium being the best to do anything with, cause its the best at getting rid of heat...less dense than all the others.)

The best is 3 layers... plastic... foam.... alluminium on the inside.

The plasic will repel alot of the heat because it does not transfer the heat as much.

The foam will stop the transfer aswell, acting as an air gap.

With the allumimium staying cool with the incomming air temps.... hense they make intercoolers aout of this! (copper is too dear and too heavy but better for heat dissapation)

I've got a TF sedan with a Th 3.5 ltr motor in it. Had a look at the front inlet on the snorkel, and it looks to me as though even though the inlet is narrow, if you were to stretch it out into a circle, its diameter would be atleast the same as where the pipe eventually enters the airbox, if not bigger. I'm thinking that standard might not be tooooo bad. Its directness, ie, straight line of air flow, might also be a positive for it. Would like to remove the 3 plastic spacers that help it hold its shape. They must impede the a/flow a bit.

It's true that, the inlet is restricted by the seals under the bonnet, but to try and get around this, I cut a hole equal in width to the lip of the intake, into the plastic shroud directly below it. The piece of plastic that covers the bonnet latch mechanism. It's by no means ram air, but plenty of cold air should flow, straight through the front grill, and then can be drawn easily up into the inlet. No restrictions at all. Make sense?

Actually yeah that does make sense and I do believe a few people removed that pastic cover off while trying to encourage air flow, others who also removed the rubber bonnet underseal, don't forget all this will increase the amount of dirt and dust that will intrude into your engine bay...

The intake will draw/suck in the air it needs, it doesn't require 'ramming'... ramming air in is another topic all together :drool:

So des anyone think the Stock airbox + K&N Panel + Pipe to ground/lower froont bar actually works?

I might try it out this weekend...:cool:

So des anyone think the Stock airbox + K&N Panel + Pipe to ground/lower froont bar actually works?
I might try it out this weekend...:cool:

It sure does.
Ensure no sharp bends and that the piping has smooth internal surface, cos air tends to travel agains it.

Heath - how about an idea of constructing a standard appearing airbox/piping from the TB, using K&N, and then pipe down. Instead of std airbox desgin which is funny off-center shape, create more centered design and remove resonators by using a smooth pipe/bend at TB end, after AirFlowSensor. Hu? Good idea? Would it sell? Understand my plan?
So, this is using std paper panel or K&N.

Watch this space for when I have my bonnet top fed ram air CAI finished. Benefits are almost direct path to pod, no long snaking tubes to bugger flow; and it will look sexy lol Due to get it back from the fabricators next week.

I went for fabrication in aluminium for the open topped pod box as I though heat transfer of minimal influence on intake charge temps (within limits obviously). Why? Well, when you consider how little time induction air spends in any air filter box, it just won't be in the box long enough to affect performance no matter if the box is ABS, ally or CF. By way of illustration, consider the single down draft Webber carby I had on a Lancer hatchback years ago - it flowed at 180 cubic feet per minute at max flow. In metric terms that's a cube nearly 2 metres X 2metres X 2metres. In one minute. Jam that down through a single air filter and you can see the air spends almost no time in any induction box that might be ahead of the carby, or ahead of the MAF/TB in an injected car. And I am thinking even a bog stock 6G72/74 would be sucking more like 220/250 cfm.

So the material you make your CAI from has really very little room to influence induction gas temps. Of far more consequence is the engine heat load imparted to the intake manifold, where the air charge spends much more of its time (in a superhot aluminium log). But that's another story and where tricks such as Barry's inlet manifld and TB gasket kit comes in.....

the less dense and thinner a material is, the quicker it is going to conduct heat. By constructing an air box from different materials, all you are going to do is change the length of time the box will take to heat up to the same temperature as the engine bay. Ie, the less dens it is, the quicker it will heat, and vice versa.

Ideally you want to make your inlet tract as short as possible to the engine so that the air has less chance to heat up. Bear in mind, the air will only be as cool as the outside temp, unless you are running a water spray into your inlet, which is pointless unless you have big mods like Jason and friends.

The only reason people have noticed a gain in performance over their stock snorkel is because it is less restrictive.

It sure does.Heath - how about an idea of constructing a standard appearing airbox/piping from the TB, using K&N, and then pipe down. Instead of std airbox desgin which is funny off-center shape, create more centered design and remove resonators by using a smooth pipe/bend at TB end, after AirFlowSensor. Hu? Good idea? Would it sell? Understand my plan?
So, this is using std paper panel or K&N.

I'm not Heath obviously but I just thought i'd mention to be careful with the AFM (Air Flow Meter) the box between your filter and the TB... don't hurt it or it will hurt your pocket!

It is needed for the intake system.

alex, u can buy my K&N pipe in about a month if u like, mine is going to be retired shortly

So des anyone think the Stock airbox + K&N Panel + Pipe to ground/lower froont bar actually works?

I might try it out this weekend...:cool:

If you want i live in Raymond Terrace but can meet up somewhere if you want
i have a basic set up like you described

i have a K&N panel filter with the some of the original intake and some pipe attached
to it that runs down to the bottom of the front bar


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4614/image018sb2.jpg

I thought the old 'bunnings snorkel' was a long-time friend of the 3rd genners now. I guess some people are still catching up ;)

I thought the old 'bunnings snorkel' was a long-time friend of the 3rd genners now. I guess some people are still catching up ;)

Amen to that..


Oh, the CAI bit.. I've been running about $20 worth of 90mm PVC from my airbox down to a spot behind the front bumper for a few weeks now and was confident I could feel the difference over the factory snorkel, so while on the dyno we put the factory intake back on and power dropped 6hp back to 163hp straight away.. replacing the PVC jobbie saw power straight back to 169hp at the wheels, so anyone wanting to keep their panel filter in service but get some more air flow should seriously consider some custom large bore pipes.

I thought the old 'bunnings snorkel' was a long-time friend of the 3rd genners now. I guess some people are still catching up ;)

lol ...

I originally got this pipe off EZ-Boy. 110mm dia, so it fit perfectly over the lip of of the airbox with a ring clamp. This is made out of oil resistant rubber with a wire ring support running through it, the inside of the pipe was very smooth. Defiantly made a difference on the TF I had. This size pipe will only fit on manual models as the auto gearbox reduces the available space to squeeze this bugger through.

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/377/tf35od2.jpg

when alluminium doesn't conduct heat as well as other metals. or do I have this wrong? :confused:

slightly off topic...
alluminium is an excellent conductor of heat. but this isnt a bad thing. A metals thermal conductivity is judged on how quickly the heat is distributed within the metal. for example if you heat one end of an alluminium bar, the other end will get hot very quickly. Do the same with stainless steel and it will take much longer. However, the alluminium will also cool much more quickly as the heat dissipates much easier, whereas stainless will retain the heat. This is why metals with excellent thermal conductivity are used for radiators/heat exchangers, copper/alluminium....
back on topic....

It sure does.
Ensure no sharp bends and that the piping has smooth internal surface, cos air tends to travel agains it.

Heath - how about an idea of constructing a standard appearing airbox/piping from the TB, using K&N, and then pipe down. Instead of std airbox desgin which is funny off-center shape, create more centered design and remove resonators by using a smooth pipe/bend at TB end, after AirFlowSensor. Hu? Good idea? Would it sell? Understand my plan?
So, this is using std paper panel or K&N.

Resonators are simply for noise suppresion (basic helmholtz resonators) - all they do is cause turbulence. I need as much noise suppression as I can get at the moment. :doubt:

Probably not a bad idea, the shorter the inlet tract the better as well - thought about going downwards into the guard with a bellmouth, but you cant (legally) cut great big holes in the bodywork - pity.

A more centred design would reduce intra-airbox turbulence, and would favour the whole filter surface as well. Smooth pipes of the dimensions wanted in plastic are not that easy to get - there are places that do moulded silicon but for a one off - very expensive. You still need to hook up things like PCV etc.

Someone needs to do real, scientific testing with a manenometer (very sensitive vacuum gauge) and work out where the greatest restrictions are - every CAI thread this board has ever seen (especially speculation about intake restrictions) is just guesswork.

I'm not Heath obviously but I just thought i'd mention to be careful with the AFM (Air Flow Meter) the box between your filter and the TB... don't hurt it or it will hurt your pocket!
It is needed for the intake system.

Yep, didn't mean u were. It was directed to Heath - just in the same thread/subject.

I don't quite understand what u mean about the TB/AFM stuff? I was never going to remove them or alter them or alter the piping between them etc. Only to replace current crinkly pipe which incl resonators to a non-resonator smooth pipe. Might improve the flow another 0.0001 %.... :D

Dunno about those insulators for the plenum - have a long drive and discover that the whole engine bay is almost eaqually hot, 50-65 C, incl the strutbrace.
This means? Heat exctracting from the radiator heats u everything, a insulator between the block and plenum makes no much diff, cos the strut temp will end up being same as plenum. Yes, have tested this several times. Temps vary a bit depending on outside temps and driving etc, but u ppl get my drift.

How about having a aircon unit core at the intake side..... :bowrofl:

Someone needs to do real, scientific testing with a manenometer (very sensitive vacuum gauge) and work out where the greatest restrictions are - every CAI thread this board has ever seen (especially speculation about intake restrictions) is just guesswork.

Do you really need that sensitive a vacuum gauge?

The new car I've bought for myself over here in the UK is a low boost turbo so I went and bought myself a boost gauge just to see what's what, and it occurred to me there's no reason I shouldn't be able to monitor restriction through the intake by plumbing my boost/vacuum gauge into various places. Ok, it won't be as accurate as being able to read off 10ths of a psi, but it's got to be close enough for broad brush strokes?

Of course with a decent manometer you can measure the differential across two points of the intake in one measurement rather than comparing to atmosphere each time..

Resonators are simply for noise suppresion (basic helmholtz resonators) - all they do is cause turbulence. I need as much noise suppression as I can get at the moment. :doubt:

Probably not a bad idea, the shorter the inlet tract the better as well - thought about going downwards into the guard with a bellmouth, but you cant (legally) cut great big holes in the bodywork - pity.

A more centred design would reduce intra-airbox turbulence, and would favour the whole filter surface as well. Smooth pipes of the dimensions wanted in plastic are not that easy to get - there are places that do moulded silicon but for a one off - very expensive. You still need to hook up things like PCV etc.

Someone needs to do real, scientific testing with a manenometer (very sensitive vacuum gauge) and work out where the greatest restrictions are - every CAI thread this board has ever seen (especially speculation about intake restrictions) is just guesswork.

Yep, good reply! :)

Many of our thoughts re CAI are mostly theoretical. Condcuting real life experiments are complicated and expensive. Obviously basic things like larger intake pipe with fwd facing bell mouth vs restrictive snorkle are quite obvious - but re-designing the actual air box might not be as simple as just "building a box" as u mentioned.
Once I slow down with house renos, I might sink my self to this idea.... in 2020....:cry:

Measuring restrictions using a vacuum gauge for a turbo (range 30inHg to atmosperic) isn't possible - if you are seeing any vacuum on a gauge with this sort of range, you have a massive restriction.

You do need to measure 1/10ths of a psi - really. You measure the total restriction prior to the throttle body (say measure at the PCV nipple near the throttle) and then use a garden watering system barb after each restriction (seal the hole with a watering system repair barb)

ie. Measure at PCV nipple (total restriction), measure just after MAF, measure after filter and before MAF, measure in front of filter. Working back from these measurements you can work out the percentage of restriction each component imposes.

Autospeed has a great article on this.

just regarding the air being able to flow over obstacles in the inlet tract :

(i read this on another forum - again talking about CAI for fords)

air tends to be able to flow best over itself - what (that forum said) that means, it wont matter if the inside of the inlet tract is ribbed, yes the air thats is directly passing over the raised and lowered sections will be slower, but the center part of the tract is going to be free flowing - and will run at 'full speed' as the engine requires/ draws on it.

obv using a smooth internal surface will eleminate the slower edges, but there will be some element of drag along the edges

ultimatly, the engine can only 'consume' so much air.
obv having as much cold air avail for it to consume is a good thing for when you start to take the car on a spirited drive.

but of corse colder air is more dense which makes it better for power and the like.

Measuring restrictions using a vacuum gauge for a turbo (range 30inHg to atmosperic) isn't possible - if you are seeing any vacuum on a gauge with this sort of range, you have a massive restriction.

You do need to measure 1/10ths of a psi - really. You measure the total restriction prior to the throttle body (say measure at the PCV nipple near the throttle) and then use a garden watering system barb after each restriction (seal the hole with a watering system repair barb)

ie. Measure at PCV nipple (total restriction), measure just after MAF, measure after filter and before MAF, measure in front of filter. Working back from these measurements you can work out the percentage of restriction each component imposes.

Autospeed has a great article on this.

touche. went and re-read the (revised) articles today and of course you're right. eBay here I come.

If you have a TL or TW, which it looks like I have, this is what I did. Make sure you read through the whole lot as I made a few mistakes and ended up with a great result.

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48649

cheers

Yeha Man... That would be good eh!

Might try that this weekend or next? What srt have pipe will I need? What about tools?

Regards
Alex


If you want i live in Raymond Terrace but can meet up somewhere if you want
i have a basic set up like you described

i have a K&N panel filter with the some of the original intake and some pipe attached
to it that runs down to the bottom of the front bar


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4614/image018sb2.jpg

Yeha Man... That would be good eh!

Might try that this weekend or next? What srt have pipe will I need? What about tools?

Regards
Alex

easy done i will sent you a pm with my address and some details

easy done i will sent you a pm with my address and some details

Sounds great! Hopefully there isnt anything that resembles a bump or speed hump...or even much of a drive way... :bowrofl: