just an idea for those who are silly enough to consider modding their awd for speed


supercharge you V6 and spend 15k by the time it's all sorted 100% and still have less than 200kwatw and still be auto and slow as crap....

or

has anyone thought of and EVO conversion???

considering the awd uses evo runing gear, why not use the evo engine and manual box?

positives.... less weight, slightly lighter engine and manual transmission is lighter than the auto... then you have a manual...

better weight balance as engine is ever so slightly further back....

then you have heaps of room in front of the engine for giant turbos and front mount coolers etc...


considering most of the s/c brigade has spent 10k on the old crappy V6 and then almost all have popped and still had bugger all kwatw for the $$ it sounds logical

i mean how many evo's are out there with 200+kwatw with minimal mods...

would make the awd an awesome machine for those silly enough to bother with the mod and not just buy an evo...

i think the 4cy would be a decent upgrade? considering the power and reliability these things have.... and the reduction in capacity dosent mean squat considering most decent evo's have more tq than pretty much all s/c'd magnas!

engineering would be easy too and would be passed easily...


and after you sell then V6 you have and the transmission and your other bits it wouldnt cost the earth if you know where to get good prices



had i have thought of this earlier i would have definatly done it to mine...

think about it... manual evo running gear... 220+kwatw chuck on some light weight alloys decent tyres coilovers swaybar upgrade, relocate the battery to the boot for even better weight distribution... damn fine weapon me thinks


now someone DO IT!

Someone did make a thread bout this a while ago, only to get shut down by a few people because the gear ratios and diff ratios and what not are too out of whack and wouldnt be a good idea.

EDIT: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54529&highlight=transmission+evo

Someone did make a thread bout this a while ago, only to get shut down by a few people because the gear ratios and diff ratios and what not are too out of whack and wouldnt be a good idea.

EDIT: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54529&highlight=transmission+evo


that only had the transmission, hence why it wasnt a good idea matching the V6 to the evo trans. andrewd is saying maybe get the motor and trans and i dont see why not.. hes correct on the figures..

Sounds like a fine idea, since you can use the complete evo driveline includign engine and tranmission, then the problems mentioned earlier shouldnt exist. Hmmmm

Ollie

with the cost of doing the conversion you could build a boost proof engine for your AWD as the reason they pop, and still dont have as much power is they arent built for boost and only run under 10 pound via a supercharger.

You realise an Evo makes its ~280hp from the factory with 14-16psi of boost?

Yes i know its a smaller displacement, but the engine is also built to use it better. The engines are hi-techish but how many low-tech commy engines pump huge figures, when built properly?!?

weight transfer and other issues like that are of small coincidence, a built 3.5litre is going to make more punt with the same money spent on it then a 4g63T

Doing it because you want to be different is a good idea, but doing it because you think it'll be a better route is not a good way to spend that kind of money

there is a handfull of boosted 3.5's in aus making more than 200kw

there are thousands of evo's making much more

they also beat the 3.5 in terms or torque too.... a restricted 2.0L turbo making 300hp can easily make 500nm


like i said there are ppl who have spent more than 15k and dont have 220+ awkw and still dont have a manual box either...

it's not about being different at all...

it'd also give you a manual which isnt possible without spend 000's more on top of the 15k already spent and better chassis balance than the very nose heavy awd has..

Buy an evo? :)

i doubt the awd is more nose heavy say a common magna, with the rear driveline assembly.

If i had the choice i would turbocharge instead of supercharge. What i am saying is, is that for the money spent on the conversion, you arent going to be any faster then the same money spent on the original equipement.

factor in 3500-4500 for the halfcut. the labour to fit 2000, the custom work involved 1500
these are bare bones prices, more likely to be only half of the cost of the conversion, on road, to have a car not much better then stock (on paper). THis doesnt include any bolt ons for performance (except the exhaust which would be done for the conversion)

Ive done a few engine swaps, there are a lot fo costs involved you dont realise before you start even when the motors are similar. I still dont believe and evo swap woul dbe any more beneficial then spending the money correctly on the 3.5 v6

Buy an evo? :)

lateral thinking ?

Buy an evo? :)

i mentioned that!

and whist a fwd with the chassis balance the awd has may handle reasonably the awd is far to nose heavy and always pushes wide more so than a fwd and you suffer much more in the wet.... thats when pushing hard... driving quickly ppl think the awd is fantastic, but it could be far better...

as mentioned it's not for everyone, but i still believe its a better option than engineering the manual to work, then having to tall diff ratios then the fact that it hasnt been proven that the V6 is better in terms of output than the turbo 4

so far all i can tell is that the most powerful V6 magna twin turbo in aus has approx 450hp at the hubs?

i know of a daily driven turbo barina sri that makes 468hp at the hubs reliably... the 2.0 evo engine is a much better base for modification than an ecotec 1.8L

sure it might cost 20k all up, then subtract the couple of grand you get for all the std running gear and again, not much more than ppl have spent if any at all on their s/c'd magnas and as yet still no s/c'd magnas are running to their potential with much more needing to be done..


i agree though.... for the money spent on the s/c kit's not turboing is a much better option

but.... the s/c kit lured you in with the easy install and cheap? price....

then when installed and disappointed ppl decided for 7k i should be getting more gain... so factor in the retune then the full exhaust and fuel system then intake etc... then the fact that so far almost all sprintexed magnas that have been tuned have killed the pistons.. then rebuild... had ppl have known that before hand that just slapping on the kit would leave you dissatisfied then i think there would be quite a few more turbos out there

i mentioned that!

and whist a fwd with the chassis balance the awd has may handle reasonably the awd is far to nose heavy and always pushes wide more so than a fwd and you suffer much more in the wet.... thats when pushing hard... driving quickly ppl think the awd is fantastic, but it could be far better...

as mentioned it's not for everyone, but i still believe its a better option than engineering the manual to work, then having to tall diff ratios then the fact that it hasnt been proven that the V6 is better in terms of output than the turbo 4

so far all i can tell is that the most powerful V6 magna twin turbo in aus has approx 450hp at the hubs?

i know of a daily driven turbo barina sri that makes 468hp at the hubs reliably... the 2.0 evo engine is a much better base for modification than an ecotec 1.8L

sure it might cost 20k all up, then subtract the couple of grand you get for all the std running gear and again, not much more than ppl have spent if any at all on their s/c'd magnas and as yet still no s/c'd magnas are running to their potential with much more needing to be done..


i agree though.... for the money spent on the s/c kit's not turboing is a much better option

but.... the s/c kit lured you in with the easy install and cheap? price....

then when installed and disappointed ppl decided for 7k i should be getting more gain... so factor in the retune then the full exhaust and fuel system then intake etc... then the fact that so far almost all sprintexed magnas that have been tuned have killed the pistons.. then rebuild... had ppl have known that before hand that just slapping on the kit would leave you dissatisfied then i think there would be quite a few more turbos out there


Andrew, great idea mate. I love the idea of an AWD manual magna. but as a lot of the lads have said, it would be easier to buy an evo. You would get more gear too.

I suppose i cant talk tho, i'm in the preocess of makin a 3.5 DOHC 3rd Gen.

An interesting idea - especially for those wanting evo performance without going to a smaller car.
oh, and also for those willing and able to spend around $10K+ on top of the car's purchase price. Which there are a few lucky ducks around.
Aftermarket performance mods would be easier to pick up too.

It would be the Evo Lagna, easy to get through rego, yes it would cost, but you aren't doing the R&D on the motor and driveline, just the install. You would have to build for bulk torque, but with all the room underbonnet you could optimise the manifolds and exhaust to suit, and there should be a wide range of final drive gearing available.


if Chuck Norris was a car he'd be a full race Evo

there is a handfull of boosted 3.5's in aus making more than 200kw

there are thousands of evo's making much more

they also beat the 3.5 in terms or torque too.... a restricted 2.0L turbo making 300hp can easily make 500nm



A stock EVO6 makes 370nm of torque, definantely less than a blown magna. Yes you get ~300hp evos making 500nm torque..we are talking about highly modded RACE cars running mandatory turbo restrictors. That's besides the point, for most performance/racing applications

POWER is what determines how fast you go, not torque. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand what power and torque actually is, and their relationship.

For the sort of cost of putting an evo motor/gearbox into a magna you could probably be making ALOT of power with the magna motor (think RPW magna). Also when you are spending that kind of money the magna motor IS better simply due to the extra capacity. E.g you can make 500hp+ from a magna motor with good driveability. To make that kind of power out of a 2L motor you are looking at a BIG turbo and therefore very laggy power delivery. E.g I know of a Pulsar GtiR making that kind of power from a T88, and it doesn't hit proper boost till 5,000rpm. Imagine that kind of power deliver in a heavy awd magna.

Interesting debate.

weight distribution :
While it's actually advantageous for FWDs to be front-heavy, AWDs and RWDs definantely benefit from better weight distribution. Reason being in an FWD to go fast you simply need to maximise front-end grip. In an RWD/AWD you need to balance front-end grip with rear-end grip. Having too much weight at one end makes this difficult/impossible. Then again EVOs and WRX still have front-biased weight distribution, yet are very quick around a track. I wonder if an awd magna with a correct suspension setup could go surprisingly quick for it's weight/power.

Power:
Obviously stock-for-stock the evo motor is much better power-wise. However off-boost trying to haul the weight of the magna wouldn't be much fun. For the cost of getting an evo motor/gearbox put it you could be making better power with the magna motor, and it's delivery would suit the car more.

IMO it would be an fairly pointless excercise. If you want an evo, sell the magna and buy an evo, for roughly the same cost as turning the magna into a heavy imitation evo. Due to logistical problems it would be a rather costly exercise, probably not just a matter of buying an EVO motor/driveline and bolting them in.

An evo-ised magna still aint gonna be all that quick, due to the extra weight. You could mod a manual FWD magna to go around a track faster for less cost.

just a few numbers regarding the above

TJ exec awd 1604kg
evo 8 1310-1400kg depending on spec


now the swap from 6 to 4 will save 60kg atleast

the manual conversion will save another 40kg atleast

then some nice light weight alloys coilovers smaller battery and ditching the a/c will save approx another 60kg
thats without doing any real major expensive mods to the car or interior

so you could easily shave 150kg off the 1604kg making the magna only 1454kg... or the same weight as an evo 8 with a fatty driving it and a skinny guy in the magna!

also on the tq

the fq360 makes 480ish nm @ 3200rpm

there are heaps more street evo's pushing much more hp than them without tens of thousands of $$'s worth of mods


i did say buy an evo, but again ppl have spent $$$ on the magna and will continue to....


me i dont even own a magna anymore, so i couldnt care less ;) im pretty happy with my lil 2dr astra manual which is much much more fun than the awd ever was... except it can do 14's on the 1/4 :( i wish it were the turbo model lol

Obviously stock-for-stock the evo motor is much better power-wise. However off-boost trying to haul the weight of the magna wouldn't be much fun. For the cost of getting an evo motor/gearbox put it you could be making better power with the magna motor, and it's delivery would suit the car more.

IMO it would be an fairly pointless excercise. If you want an evo, sell the magna and buy an evo, for roughly the same cost as turning the magna into a heavy imitation evo. Due to logistical problems it would be a rather costly exercise, probably not just a matter of buying an EVO motor/driveline and bolting them in.

An evo-ised magna still aint gonna be all that quick, due to the extra weight. You could mod a manual FWD magna to go around a track faster for less cost.

All true.

A 2L turbo motor in a manual AWD magna would make a very worn clutch.

It's much easier to get the required torque needed to get a heavy car moving from the 3.5L engine. Forced induction on the 6G74 by s/c gets instantaneous torque and is more than capable of 450nM+ torque across a wide rev range up to about 5000rpm - that makes it more driveable. The realtively low revs at peak torque are what limits the power in this case.

The TT 6G74 on the other hand makes more than 500ft-lbs which is nearly 700nM on sotck rods and stock crank with only pump fuel. That's a whole different ball game now, and I doubt there would be too many daily driven 2L turbos with stock internals that could do that.

For speed, money is probably better spent on the EVO. Then you will have an EVO and not a Magna.

But spend $20k on modifiying an awd magna and you will have a daily driver somewhere near the 12 second club.

just a few numbers regarding the above

TJ exec awd 1604kg
evo 8 1310-1400kg depending on spec


now the swap from 6 to 4 will save 60kg atleast

the manual conversion will save another 40kg atleast

then some nice light weight alloys coilovers smaller battery and ditching the a/c will save approx another 60kg
thats without doing any real major expensive mods to the car or interior

so you could easily shave 150kg off the 1604kg making the magna only 1454kg... or the same weight as an evo 8 with a fatty driving it and a skinny guy in the magna!



Interesting when you break it down, the weight difference isn't as quite much as I thought. I think your estimations on weight savings are on the high side (but only slightly) for the tranny and engine, but your point is a good one. The problem is any additional weight saving you could do on the magna can also be done on the evo.

I.e by the time you get the awd magna down to say 1470kg, the evo with the same weight reduction would be like 1250kg. You are looking at quite alot of cost just to get the awd magna similar to a 100% stock evo, would have been cheaper to sell the magna and get an evo, and then have more headroom for improvement. And the evo would be still be nicer to drive due to having a stiffer and more compact chassis.

But it's certainly an interesting idea/debate, and I would love to see someone do it for fun :)

your right on the weight saving on the evo and the very bendy magna chassis!

by the time you stiffen up the magna chassis to be comparable to the evo its far far far heavier again lol
any how it's just an idea

and still with modding the V6 sure any engine can make power there are evo's with 1000+hp at all 4's and same goes for the 6G7X engines too.... but to make a magna awd into a manual and shave some kg's off the front is going to be a killer task as we have already found that your going to have massive problems with gear ratio's clutches and the rest



i'd love to hear more from the dude with the 6spd auto in is awd.... i call fake :P if there is no proof it didnt hapen ;)

probably a better conversion would be the evo awd and engine into a hyundai excel (it has been done!!!) save a few hundred kg's there