hey guys,

have done some ringing around yet to wait for some quotes, but i have recieved a huge shock, one place said they wont do it, another said they are booked out for 2 months, and one said they can do it but for 1900 dollars. ok maybe its just me, but i was hoing it would be a bit cheaper than this to instal cams, cam gears, and valve springs. if anyone could suggest a price i should be looking at that would be great... im in perth if that makes any difference.

thanks mike

hey guys,

have done some ringing around yet to wait for some quotes, but i have recieved a huge shock, one place said they wont do it, another said they are booked out for 2 months, and one said they can do it but for 1900 dollars. ok maybe its just me, but i was hoing it would be a bit cheaper than this to instal cams, cam gears, and valve springs. if anyone could suggest a price i should be looking at that would be great... im in perth if that makes any difference.

thanks mike

Im not sure on price, but its not the hardest job, but, takes a fair bit of time. Ie the manifold/plenum needs to come of, the rail, and then the heads. Heads need the new springs put in them, and the cam gears. New cam thrown in, and then dialed in.

Go to any decent local mechanic and ask them how much they want to charge.

i got stage ones so didn't do the springs,( wish i did for peace of mind) however i had cams and cam gears installed along with emanage and tune for $1500. So take away the tune, you should be looking below ar around $1000. Get used to the rejection. I had to ring a heap of places to get mine done. It was either no to cams or no to emanage. My tuner used space at a engine rebuilders and they did the cams and he did the tuning after.

Its strange how everyone seems to say that most people reject working on a Magna motor. Perhaps its because I live in Sydney, but the few workshops ive asked are more than willing to work on my engine. These range from "local" mechanics, to fairly decent places who build alot of import motors.

Never asked about a tune but.

im not asking for a tune, im getting that done at rpw, i just want someone to install everything for me. i have even rang mitsibishi awaiting there price as well.

mike

i have a mate who works for mitsibishi said he could do it for about 1000 plus all gaskets etc... then i gotta get a tune which would be about 400. which sounds heaps loads better than 1900 plus tune.

mike

Go to any decent local mechanic and ask them how much they want to charge.

Sounds like he's done that but hasn't been impressed with the answers he's received.

I think the lack of interest might have quite a bit to do with some mechanics not wanting to work on a motor that they don't 'know'.

Around my area, there's a few different shops that won't even think twice about rejecting work because of what's involved - a transmission shop I called won't do anything except GM transmissions, and a mechanic that won't touch anything that's not Holden or Ford.

I'd think that an import shop would be the best place to try - a lot of thier business is SOHC and DOHC Japanese motors.

yeah there a pain in the ass installing cams on this motor because you need to remove the heads to install the cam so they will need a new head gasket and maybe machining depending on the surface if it isnt within the specs. 1000 bucks is pretty resonable considering the amount of work needing to be done.

yeah there a pain in the ass installing cams on this motor because you need to remove the heads to install the cam so they will need a new head gasket and maybe machining depending on the surface if it isnt within the specs. 1000 bucks is pretty resonable considering the amount of work needing to be done.

you dont need to remove heads to do the cams...i am not so sure about the valve springs tho.

yeah there a pain in the ass installing cams on this motor because you need to remove the heads to install the cam so they will need a new head gasket and maybe machining depending on the surface if it isnt within the specs. 1000 bucks is pretty resonable considering the amount of work needing to be done.

Why would the head need to come off though?
The cam sits on top of the head under like 5 caps or something, dont you simply undo those bolts, and lift the cam off?

you dont need to remove heads to do the cams...i am not so sure about the valve springs tho.

according to haynes you have to, but i havent pulled mine apart yet so im just going off it.

The 3.5L engine has a tunnel that the cam slides through; it doesn't have caps like the older 3.0L 12V motor. I'm not 100%, but I'm fairly sure that there isn't enough clearance between the motor and the body inside the engine bay to fit a camshaft in.

I don't think you'd be able to leave the heads on at all in fact, as I don't think there'd be enough room in the spark plug tube to fit a compressed air fitting to hold the valves up.

Personally, I'd take the heads off, give them a skim, do everything you're going to do, and use new head gaskets and new TTY head bolts.

cams slide out of the head at the gearbox end. It is a fairly big job. My reccomendation would be to get yourself a second hand pair of heads and get them rebuilt with the new cams and valve springs. While your at it, look at getting it ported and polished too. Then the main part is a head r + r plus tune.

Would be less labour intensive than r+r cams and valve springs while in situ.

according to haynes you have to, but i havent pulled mine apart yet so im just going off it.

Do Gregory's say the same? (Not that I know that much about cars but anyway! I'm here to learn!)

Well, I just assumed the heads had to come off because thats what I had read. I personally dont know 100% as I have never done the fact. However, for valve springs, its best to take the heads off anyway, dont think they can be but in with the heads still on the motor.

While the heads are out, why dont you clean them up a little ?

it is confirmed by multiple mechanics that i dont need to take the heads of for the cams, but for the valve springs they do need to take them of. i was pritty happy with the price of 1000, im expecting this to creep over a little. thanks for all your help. ill let you know tomorrow to confirm when i ring the mechanic again.

mike

What kind of cam profile are you running?

Honestly, if you are going to the trouble of taking the heads off, I'd be looking at getting the heads ported and polished as well (though it would be better to have a spare set of heads for this).

If you are using a cam bigger than RPW's "Stage 1", you are really wasting your time/money without headwork and/or raising CR.

While the heads are off you might as well get 10:1 pistons, which will allow you to run a "bigger" cam without suffering too much of a loss in driveability.

I know you need to draw the line somewhere, but keep in mind it's much better to do everything in one go, rather than skimping the 1st time, and then wasting more money/tmie later to redo it.

IMO either go the whole hog with ported heads, 10:1 pistons and something in the area of RPW's "Stage 3" profile, or just leave the heads on and throw in rpw "stage 1s" or similar.

iv got 262 duration tighe cams or stage 2 cams, vernier cam gears, and valve springs. i have been told these cams will not effect the pistons or heads at all, so thats not a problem, as i am led to believe, you just gotta take the heads of for the valve springs.

i would like to get the heads done, and upgrade the pistons but i want to see how the cams go, i have been told the car will be ok with a good tune, and later on get a plenum either rpws or ez boys, which will help down low power. i gotta draw the line somewhere...

mike

iv got 262 duration tighe cams or stage 2 cams, vernier cam gears, and valve springs. i have been told these cams will not effect the pistons or heads at all, so thats not a problem, as i am led to believe, you just gotta take the heads of for the valve springs.

i would like to get the heads done, and upgrade the pistons but i want to see how the cams go, i have been told the car will be ok with a good tune, and later on get a plenum either rpws or ez boys, which will help down low power. i gotta draw the line somewhere...

mike

Anoher way to increase low down power is by running higher compression. IMO, a new manifold/plenum is not needed in most cases, ie, that $800 spent on the manifold, is the same price as getting higher comp pistions, and, im almost certain, the new pistions will give you a greater power increase (both low down, and up high) than the manifold.

Anoher way to increase low down power is by running higher compression. IMO, a new manifold/plenum is not needed in most cases, ie, that $800 spent on the manifold, is the same price as getting higher comp pistions, and, im almost certain, the new pistions will give you a greater power increase (both low down, and up high) than the manifold.

never thought of it like that, what is needed to be done to the engine if i upgrade my pistons, and in peoples experiences what is the best pistons to get>

mike

never thought of it like that, what is needed to be done to the engine if i upgrade my pistons, and in peoples experiences what is the best pistons to get>

mike


I got a set of 3.5 heads off my VRX if you want to go down that avenue..:) They donr about 70k's. Took them off as i did another set when i did the engine rebuild..:)


Let me know if you want them..?

how are they different from the heads i would have?

sorry i didnt realise how cheap pistons were, i thought they were way more expensive than the plenum is, that is why i was ignoring this idea.

mike

how are they different from the heads i would have?

sorry i didnt realise how cheap pistons were, i thought they were way more expensive than the plenum is, that is why i was ignoring this idea.

mike

Well, the price depends. Pajero pistions basically drop straight in, and have a compression rato of 10:1. From what I hear, the cost of these is under $500. Best person to speak to would be Jasons VRX as he knows excatly whats involved, and the costs.

The other option is CP pistions. These have a compression of 11.1, however are much more expensive (along the lines of $1000 or so I have been told). The cylinders also need to be bored out 20thou, so labour is more expensive.

The Pajero pistions might be a good idea for you

iv got 262 duration tighe cams or stage 2 cams, vernier cam gears, and valve springs. i have been told these cams will not effect the pistons or heads at all, so thats not a problem, as i am led to believe, you just gotta take the heads of for the valve springs.

i would like to get the heads done, and upgrade the pistons but i want to see how the cams go, i have been told the car will be ok with a good tune, and later on get a plenum either rpws or ez boys, which will help down low power. i gotta draw the line somewhere...

mike

as I said anything bigger than "stage 1" rpw grind is pointless without headwork and higher CR. In fact by using "stage2" cams with stock heads and pistons, you may actually find you LOSE performance - where loss in bottom-end/midrange outweighs top-end gain.

I really don't understand why you went and bought "stage 2" cams with the intention of not flowing the heads or upping CR, it's been established many times on AMC that "Stage 1" or similar is the way to go with stock CR and heads.

Now my advice to you is to either save/stretch your budget to include head porting and 10:1 pistons, or see if you can swap them for "stage1" cams, as a budget upgrade that doesn't require pulling off the heads.

You could go ahead and do what you were planning to do, but be warned the results probably won't be as good as what you are hoping for.

well this is going to be a dangerous move, but im going to go against all advice here, after speaking to mechanic, its going to cost 800 to port and polish the heads, then i gotta buy some pistons, looks like around 500, then gotta install the pistons, which sounds like the engine has to be removed or something, i might of herd him wrong though or mis understood as i was on my mobile phone. but it sounds like i would need new engine bearings, and probably some other things as well. i rather spend the money get the cams in, tune, see how the car reacts, then ill look at the options at the other end.

thanks for your opinions and even though it might look like it, thye have been taken into consideration.

mike

then gotta install the pistons, which sounds like the engine has to be removed or something, i might of herd him wrong though or mis understood as i was on my mobile phone.

If your mechanic is telling you pistons is an "engine out" job - he's full of crap, or he thinks you are really gullible.

If your mechanic is telling you pistons is an "engine out" job - he's full of crap, or he thinks you are really gullible.

fair enough... so what is involved then... and approximate price?

just rang another place to get a price... we normally do an exchange short motor with high comp pistons, rebuilt ready to fit heads onto for around $1200.00... if you want heads reconditioning including porting and polishing its around $2800.00 for a complete motor engine rebuild... this is knida out of my price range. i wish i could afford it but i cant thats basically what it comes down to. even if the motor doesnt need to come out i still cant afford it. i know these prices include everything, but even from the prices i mentioned earlier its still pritty expensive, maybe in a few months, i might be able to do it.

thanks mike

hey guys,

have done some ringing around yet to wait for some quotes, but i have recieved a huge shock, one place said they wont do it, another said they are booked out for 2 months, and one said they can do it but for 1900 dollars. ok maybe its just me, but i was hoing it would be a bit cheaper than this to instal cams, cam gears, and valve springs. if anyone could suggest a price i should be looking at that would be great... im in perth if that makes any difference.

thanks mike

have you tried CYPHER INDUSTRIES in o'connor?

i remember they told me they will work on anything when i asked them about doing some work on my KR.

they put quad throttle bodies on a Miata FFS:D

fair enough... so what is involved then... and approximate price?

just rang another place to get a price... we normally do an exchange short motor with high comp pistons, rebuilt ready to fit heads onto for around $1200.00... if you want heads reconditioning including porting and polishing its around $2800.00 for a complete motor engine rebuild... this is knida out of my price range. i wish i could afford it but i cant thats basically what it comes down to. even if the motor doesnt need to come out i still cant afford it. i know these prices include everything, but even from the prices i mentioned earlier its still pritty expensive, maybe in a few months, i might be able to do it.

thanks mike

that include all parts that 2800 price? aka gaskets, pistons, arp bolts and so on? or all that added on cost?

that include all parts that 2800 price? aka gaskets, pistons, arp bolts and so on? or all that added on cost?

I believe so. Just gotta pay for install on top.

mike

fair enough... so what is involved then... and approximate price?



If the heads are coming off anyway, apparently swapping pistons is an easy/quick job.

I was quoted ~$1000 by my local mech to swap heads and pistons.

have you tried CYPHER INDUSTRIES in o'connor?

i remember they told me they will work on anything when i asked them about doing some work on my KR.

they put quad throttle bodies on a Miata FFS:D

Just rang them, "dont really do 6G74 engines for a magna" i asked how much he would do a port and polish on the heads.

Thanks anyways

mike

If the heads are coming off anyway, apparently swapping pistons is an easy/quick job.

I was quoted ~$1000 by my local mech to swap heads and pistons.

Nothing to do with the heads being off..... pistons come out (and subsequently go back in) from the bottom.

Nothing to do with the heads being off..... pistons come out (and subsequently go back in) from the bottom.

So Black beard how much work is needed to put in high comp pistons eg: pajero pistons, do the bearings need doing etc... and to port and polish how much would you expect to pay?

sorry about all the question people,just wanna make sure i do the right thing by myself, by my car and by my wallet. to tell you the truth at this stage looks like the cams are going in on there own, but needless to say this information could be used later on.

mike

So Black beard how much work is needed to put in high comp pistons eg: pajero pistons, do the bearings need doing etc... and to port and polish how much would you expect to pay?

sorry about all the question people,just wanna make sure i do the right thing by myself, by my car and by my wallet. to tell you the truth at this stage looks like the cams are going in on there own, but needless to say this information could be used later on.

mike

I'm no expert on engine rebuilding - but I'd assume to get the pistons out thru the bottom of the engine, the bearings would need to come out (along with the crank, con-rods etc etc etc). If the bearings were showing signs of wear, then you'd be stupid not to replace them at that point. Having said that - I can't think of a good reason why bearings need to be "upgraded" just because high comp pistons are being fitted.

I'm no expert on engine rebuilding - but I'd assume to get the pistons out thru the bottom of the engine, the bearings would need to come out (along with the crank, con-rods etc etc etc). If the bearings were showing signs of wear, then you'd be stupid not to replace them at that point. Having said that - I can't think of a good reason why bearings need to be "upgraded" just because high comp pistons are being fitted.

if ur gonna go down the path of pistons, u would be safer to replace bearings in bottom end! the crank has to come out for pistons to come out, and pistons go back in from the top! btw valve springs should be able to be changed with heads on! put a tube down the spark plug hole and run compressed air into the cylinder it will keep the valves up! as long as it is on TDC on that cylinder!

Nothing to do with the heads being off..... pistons come out (and subsequently go back in) from the bottom.

The pistons actually go in thru the top of the block.

If you ever get to look at a 3.5L block you will see that you cant remove the pistons from the bottom of the engine due to the "block webbing" that is at the base of the bores to aid in the bottom ends strength around the main caps. :)

IMO, a new manifold/plenum is not needed in most cases, ie, that $800 spent on the manifold, is the same price as getting higher comp pistions, and, im almost certain, the new pistions will give you a greater power increase (both low down, and up high) than the manifold.

You'd be a fool not to get both. I've been in a 9:1 car, 9.4:1 and a 10:1 car all with and without manifold (RPW in all cases) and the most powerful car with best low, mid and top end was the 10:1 with the 9.4:1 very close behind due to the ralliart cams The 10:1 car was ok down low but didn't haul a55 until the manifold was swapped. Forget the cost of the manifold and understand that changing cams, porting head are fantastic but why skimp out on the section of the inlet that supplies the air TO the heads, cams and combustion chamber. :nuts:

I get worried when people start posting that have never had a motor apart or even put a spanner on their own car for that matter.

Pajero pistons are cheap and equivilent to a 1psi boost into a 9:1 motor. You will lose some compression when you deshroud your valves but it's better to do than not. How old is the motor? You may need a rebore for new pistons if it's on old slapper - that means the motors coming out.

IMHO Stick to your original budget and dream unless you have no budget and the skys the limit. ;)

at this time i planned for enough money for the cams, and plenum to be installed. now since it is exactly the same amount of money no matter what size cams you go, i thought since a few people have stage 1 cams (252 degree), and stage 2 seem to be safe (262), i wanted to go the extra stage. i allowed 1000 for plenum but that wasnt going to happen until next few months anyways.engine has done 165K. thats why i believe the mechanic said it would be safer to take out the engine and do everything whilst your there to be on the safe side. at the moment the budget wont stretch as far as getting pistons and the heads done but ask me again in a few months time and it might happen. thankyou for all your help i realy appreciate it and i hope this gives others a better understanding what is involved in did for me.

mike

Cams will come out, it is the springs that are the issue

First of all, there is a smaller valve spring tool that will allow them to be removed on car BUT you have 24 of the buggers and the time and fiddling you would be better off just taking off the head. Then you need to get the head shaved, cleaned, might as well check guides and re seat valves etc. If you are going to do this might as well do it properly.

It is not the Magna engine people do not like, it is the brand of the stuff being put in that people do not like :eh:

I thought tighe cams were good :doubt:

and i thoguht vernier gears were good to :doubt:

have i been told lies:shock:

spoke to mechanic yesterday cinfirmed the 1000 bucks for the cams + gears + springs to be installed, gotta pay for gaskets on top, but you get that, so thats ok.hopefully be getting 140 - 150 kw ATW. :D

mike