my rebuild has officially begun.

having talked to several people "in the know" I have decided to go the following route:

initial rebuild
CP forged pistons
Pauter 4340 conrods
Walbro 255L/hr fuel pump
Sard Adjustable FPR
DENSO 470cc/min injectors
Boost Cooler stage 2 water/meth injection

after run in period
smaller pulley wheel (mmm, more boost!)

details
I've just ordered this WI kit (http://www.full-throttle.com.au/Engine/Boost%20Cooler%20Petrol%20SC.htm) (Stage 2) and the 6.5L reservoir and fluid level indicator. I have heard nothing but good things about these kits, and the fluid level indicator can send a signal to the ECU to switch to a safer tune (I believe the SMT6 can do this, if not, I might have to switch ECUs).

I'm looking at the CP forged pistons which are 8.8:1 CR (nice for more boost). I'll have to wait until the engine is cracked before I order them, just in case there is extensive damage in any of the cylinders.

the fuel pump I'm up in the air about. my mechanic recommended a Bosch 044, but wasn't sure if it would fit. I know some of the guys on here have used Walbro units, so I'm looking for input on them (please!).

while the engine's apart I might as well replace the bearings, and look at flowing the heads.

I was thinking about upgrading the cams, but I'm not really sure whether they'll make a huge difference (and whether the car will still be a viable daily driver).

after that's all put together and run in (something like 5000km, which I'll be lucky to do in 6 months!!), there'll be an increase in boost and fuel by upgrading the pulley wheel to one rated at 10.5 psi, and upgrading the injectors.

at the moment, finances are restricting me from converting it to a manual, although with the engine out it would be an opportune time to do that. maybe the mortgage fairy can visit in the next couple of weeks.

anyway, I'll use this thread to update on any progress.

cheers,
.wook

Luke I will be watching your progress with great interest, as I may well end up treading the same path after a while :)

why not just use the walbro unit? apparently good up to 500hp (at the fly) and direct fit? the bosch 44's are a brillant pump, but require a custom bracket and whatnot to fit it and its the noisest pump on the market. With your bottom end you going to balance it all etc? as for cams a custom cam desgined for the SC would rock! :P

why not just use the walbro unit? apparently good up to 500hp (at the fly) and direct fit? the bosch 44's are a brillant pump, but require a custom bracket and whatnot to fit it and its the noisest pump on the market.
which Walbro unit bolts straight in? is it the GSS-342?

With your bottom end you going to balance it all etc? as for cams a custom cam desgined for the SC would rock! :P
I'm going to leave that up to the rebuilders... as for the cams, I don't know that the benefits of a custom grind would outweigh the costs. I think a set of billet cams is about $1000.

I'm also going to throw in a Sard FPR, and possibly an oil catch can.

cheers,
.wook

The walbro is not a direct bolt in, take it from someone who has fitted one :nuts:

You do have to modify the fuel pump retaining bracket (redrill a hole) and shorten a hose, but the connectors line up nicely. They are longer than the standard unit.

ok, so I got myself a manual 'box on the weekend :D

so add to the list:

manual conversion
Quaife LSD

woot!

the parts list is growing...

the WI kit showed up on Monday... the large reservoir will most likely go where the battery is (after the battery is moved to the boot!).

I've ordered a Walbro GSS-342 and a Sard Adjustable Rising Rate FPR with fuel rail adapter.

the car goes in on Wednesday, and I should be able to order the pistons and diff that afternoon.

can't wait.... this riding thing is driving me crazy!?!?:nuts:

Luke I will be watching your progress with great interest, as I may well end up treading the same path after a while :)
Me too, especially with the WI kit. Good luck and keep us posted.

car is in at the mechanics today, however there's only one mechanic at work today!

meh... at least most of the parts are there.

cheers,
.wook

should do the kessel run in about 9 clicks after that ey?lol

so we throwing in another 3 inches of lowereing in there too?:D

should do the kessel run in about 9 clicks after that ey?lol

so we throwing in another 3 inches of lowereing in there too?:D

you should see the rear right now...! with all the stuff in the boot I'm almost tucking rim!

mind you, the front's raised about an inch, so it looks fairly stupid :nuts:

in answer to your question, no. it's about the right height now for what I want to do with it, and I don't have to go sideways over the speed humps in my street lol

cheers,
.wook

UPDATE:

good news (for a change). the piston that let go did almost no damage to the cylinder or the head! apparently there's only a minute amount of damage to the cylinder wall and the top of the piston has a few dings in it. what this means is no headwork required (yay, saves me $$$), and the cylinders won't need to be bored out much to fit my new pistons (again, saves me $$$).

they're mic'ing up the cylinders today and I should be right to order the pistons, rod bolts and diff by lunchtime.

unfortunately the rebuild is going to be delayed for a while... the rebuilder has just come back from an injury and has a backlog of work. possibly 2 months before mine is finished!

might have to buy a beater to run around in!

cheers,
.wook

hurray!!! got my pistons today. finally everything seems to be falling into place. hopefully the car will be back on the road within a couple of weeks (might even make it to Wakefield for the 10th!!).

got a ceramic puck clutch and lightweight flywheel coming too!

if anyone's interested where I got my pistons from (at 60% of the price quoted on a local website) drop me a PM.

cheers,
.wook

not sure if you have purchased a fuel pump yet or what unit you have gone for if you did but I would not recommend walbro fuel pumps for 2 reasons.

1. I've had one seize on me which was returned for warranty.

2. 6 months after the warranty finished on my second fuel pump I had at least 2 instances where it seized during hot weather if I turned the car off and went to start it again after a short period of time. Lucky both times it happened it was within walking distance from home so I went and picked the car up a few hours later.

On the upside, it was a quiet unit.

not sure if you have purchased a fuel pump yet or what unit you have gone for if you did but I would not recommend walbro fuel pumps for 2 reasons.

1. I've had one seize on me which was returned for warranty.

2. 6 months after the warranty finished on my second fuel pump I had at least 2 instances where it seized during hot weather if I turned the car off and went to start it again after a short period of time. Lucky both times it happened it was within walking distance from home so I went and picked the car up a few hours later.

On the upside, it was a quiet unit.

already got a Walbro unit. hopefully I won't have the problems you had.

Dont worry about touching the ports mate, they are huge.
You should de-shroud the valves a bit. Have a look at the attached pic, where i have drawn in red is where you should be machining.

Also have a look at radiusing the ports around the valves, and also back cutting the valves. Look at your library and see if they have any books by A. Graham Bell. I have 3 of his book ans they are well worth a read if you are looking at undertaking any kind of engine work. honestly, i was all ready to get my heads ported and polished and all that jazz, and it would have been worth nothing.

I have been speaking to a fellow who is a very good authority on this sort of stuff, has published 4 books that i know of and also has spent many a year working on engines and performance tuning. this is his advice to me, and i am passing it on to you, free, as he did to me!

probably not going to have any headwork done this time... maybe in 6 months or so.

anyway, got the manual shifter, brake pedal, clutch pedal and master cylinder in over the weekend. let me tell you, working under the dash is not so easy when you're a big guy with big hands.

however, working with the engine out makes it a lot easier to do stuff on the other side of the firewall.

cheers,
.wook

probably not going to have any headwork done this time... maybe in 6 months or so.

anyway, got the manual shifter, brake pedal, clutch pedal and master cylinder in over the weekend. let me tell you, working under the dash is not so easy when you're a big guy with big hands.

however, working with the engine out makes it a lot easier to do stuff on the other side of the firewall.

cheers,
.wook

pfft wook your not even big. small as, im taller.

so have you got the complete set-up for manual now?

pfft wook your not even big. small as, im taller.

so have you got the complete set-up for manual now?

yeah, got everything I need.

Quaife diff is sitting at the mechanics and Dan's getting my clutch & flywheel this week.

it wasn't anywhere near as hard as I thought it was going to be, just fiddly.

I've just ordered this WI kit (http://www.full-throttle.com.au/Engine/Boost%20Cooler%20Petrol%20SC.htm) (Stage 2) and the 6.5L reservoir and fluid level indicator. I have heard nothing but good things about these kits, and the fluid level indicator can send a signal to the ECU to switch to a safer tune (I believe the SMT6 can do this, if not, I might have to switch ECUs).
Yes the SMT6 has the ability to run 2 switchable maps.
Where are you going to mount the water injector?
Will water injection have any ill effects on the supercharger rotors?

Yes the SMT6 has the ability to run 2 switchable maps.

sweet. I thought it could.


Where are you going to mount the water injector?

not sure. probably just before the throttle body. I doubt there's many better places to plumb it. without the motor in, it's hard to get an idea of where it might sit.


Will water injection have any ill effects on the supercharger rotors?

I shouldn't think so. the water should be at least atomised (at best vaporised) when it goes through the blower. also, the 7th injector will still be on to lubricate the rotors.

cheers,
.wook

not sure. probably just before the throttle body. I doubt there's many better places to plumb it. without the motor in, it's hard to get an idea of where it might sit.


Perhaps at the start of your inlet track.

Just in case. Its best to try and let the water/meth atomise more before it hits the blower...yeah?

Perhaps at the start of your inlet track.

Just in case. Its best to try and let the water/meth atomise more before it hits the blower...yeah?
Just before the TB is best... cause the turbulance @ the TB will atomise or distribute the meth/water.... and also help the rotors to seal creating more boost.. win/win!

Are the Sprintex supercharger rotors teflon or ceramic coated? I read somewhere it's one or the other. Would atomised water have any effects on the coating (whatever it may be)?

Are the Sprintex supercharger rotors teflon or ceramic coated? I read somewhere it's one or the other. Would atomised water have any effects on the coating (whatever it may be)?

Well since there's atomised fuel hitting the rotors, which is apprently fine, I don't see why water would be a problem.

I'm not sure what the coating is however.

They are ceramic coated, definitly not teflon.

sent an email to Sprintex asking about any issues with their kit and adding WI...


"There is absolutely no issue with a properly installed and configured water/meth injection system. In fact there are quite significant gains to be made."

very positive response, except they stressed to make sure the reservoir is below the inlet manifold. this would prevent syphoning in case of a failure in the system, and then your manifold would be full of water (very bad thing!).

no mention of water affecting the coating of the rotors.

on a different topic, picked up my new clutch and flywheel last night... mmm, light is good! I reckon the whole thing (pressure plate, flywheel and clutch) weighs less than the stock flywheel. will take some pics tonight.

cheers,
.wook

Have you considered using the window washer bottle instead as it would save you from relocating the battery to the boot? Just a thought.

I know that the low level indicator can be hooked up so that the SMT6 automatically switches to the safer (non water injection) map, but can a switch be hooked up to it as well to give you manual control over the 2 maps?

Are you going to upgrade to the 10 psi pulley as well while you're at it?

Have you considered using the window washer bottle instead as it would save you from relocating the battery to the boot? Just a thought.

I haven't really thought much more about it, as the engine is out and I can't really size up the necessary space with nothing under the bonnet.


I know that the low level indicator can be hooked up so that the SMT6 automatically switches to the safer (non water injection) map, but can a switch be hooked up to it as well to give you manual control over the 2 maps?

yeah I was thinking about that... might have to chat with my favourite electronics engineer and see what I can do.


Are you going to upgrade to the 10 psi pulley as well while you're at it?

nope. not until the engine is run in properly. the pulley and injectors are about 5000km away!

pics to come...!!

new clutch and flywheel. big thanks to Dan and Marty.

it's an exedy single plate clutch with a fully rebuildable triple surface flywheel (which weighs 4.3kg!!) and sprung center for drivability.

pics...

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5110/clutchplateflywheelsh1.jpg

and the gearbox, slightly cleaner than it was a couple of weeks ago

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2851/gearboxns9.jpg

cheers,
.wook

Are you getting your CPs thru Russ (Tearstone) or from CP direct? I've got some hot leads on rods too if you're in need.

I've got some hot leads on rods too if you're in need.

Apparently the factory rods shotpeened and fitted with ARP rodbolts are reliable for 500hp, so I think that would be a bit overkill :)

Apparently the factory rods shotpeened and fitted with ARP rodbolts are reliable for 500hp, so I think that would be a bit overkill :)

In the years I've been a member of these forums, I've seen so many comments like that, which originate from a certain person, that are eventually proven wrong by other members who narrow the gap between what he's done to his car, and their own car. Usually at great cost to the "amateur car enthusiast" whose only mistake was taking advice on an internet forum from a so called specialist in performance Mitsubishi's.

In the years I've been a member of these forums, I've seen so many comments like that, which originate from a certain person, that are eventually proven wrong by other members who narrow the gap between what he's done to his car, and their own car. Usually at great cost to the "amateur car enthusiast" whose only mistake was taking advice on an internet forum from a so called specialist in performance Mitsubishi's.

That same person runs forged rods interestingly enough.

were not gonna start swearing and throwing around 3 letter acronyms now are we?

were not gonna start swearing and throwing around 3 letter acronyms now are we?

Shouldn't you be fighting your mrs for the shower so you can get to work on time? lol

In the years I've been a member of these forums, I've seen so many comments like that, which originate from a certain person, that are eventually proven wrong by other members who narrow the gap between what he's done to his car, and their own car. Usually at great cost to the "amateur car enthusiast" whose only mistake was taking advice on an internet forum from a so called specialist in performance Mitsubishi's.

well, I guess I'll probably be the guinea pig on this one... my rods have already been shot peened and I'm throwing some ARP rod bolts into them. not entirely sure whether I'll hit 500hp, but it might get close.

hopefully, once everything's said and done and my car's back on the road, I can let a few people know what sort of impact this "specialist" has had on my rebuild. grrr!


Are you getting your CPs thru Russ (Tearstone) or from CP direct? I've got some hot leads on rods too if you're in need.

I'll send you a PM.

cheers,
.wook

In the years I've been a member of these forums, I've seen so many comments like that, which originate from a certain person, that are eventually proven wrong by other members who narrow the gap between what he's done to his car, and their own car. Usually at great cost to the "amateur car enthusiast" whose only mistake was taking advice on an internet forum from a so called specialist in performance Mitsubishi's.

gee, I wonder who you are talking about:bowrofl:

However, I spoke to a race engineer behind one of the magnas that run in IPRA SA, and he reckons it's fairly likely that the factory rods resized, shotpeened and fitted with ARP rod bolts would be reliable up to vicinity of 500hp.

Perhaps eventually we'll find out for certain one way or the other. Still, if i was to do a 500hp build I'd probably rather the peace of mind of having forged rods.



not entirely sure whether I'll hit 500hp, but it might get close.


500hp is 373kw. You won't get near that. unless you have something up your sleeve you havn't told us :P

500hp is 373kw. You won't get near that. unless you have something up your sleeve you havn't told us :P

well, seeing as no one has done WI on one of these beasts yet, I might get close. everyone I've talked to seems very interested in how much power I'll get. seeing as pre-rebuild I was pushing around 240-250kw at the flywheel, it's not that much of a stretch.

unfortunately I won't be able to do a meaningful before/after comparison with so many changes happening at the same time, but I will have a WI tune and non-WI tune to assess the power gains from the Boost Cooler stuff. people I trust have hinted at well over 200kw atw. the engine builder was slightly surprised by the 6G74 block and reckons there's a lot of power in it.

with more boost and more fuel I'm expecting 300+kw at the flywheel. 350kw would be huge, but definitely not out of the realms of possibilty.

cheers,
.wook

well, seeing as no one has done WI on one of these beasts yet, I might get close. everyone I've talked to seems very interested in how much power I'll get. seeing as pre-rebuild I was pushing around 240-250kw at the flywheel, it's not that much of a stretch.

unfortunately I won't be able to do a meaningful before/after comparison with so many changes happening at the same time, but I will have a WI tune and non-WI tune to assess the power gains from the Boost Cooler stuff. people I trust have hinted at well over 200kw atw. the engine builder was slightly surprised by the 6G74 block and reckons there's a lot of power in it.

with more boost and more fuel I'm expecting 300+kw at the flywheel. 350kw would be huge, but definitely not out of the realms of possibilty.

cheers,
.wook


People who say your dreaming about reaching that power figure, dont have a clue. If done right you'll reach it.

I 'should' be in the relms of over 400hp atw after exhaust and run in period.

Oh on a side note a 2.5" system limits power after 300hp atw

well, seeing as no one has done WI on one of these beasts yet, I might get close. everyone I've talked to seems very interested in how much power I'll get. seeing as pre-rebuild I was pushing around 240-250kw at the flywheel, it's not that much of a stretch.
You'll beat me to WI damm you! ive got a pump and injector sitting here on the floor but no time to install it as i just found out im off overseas for like 5 weeks with work so i wont get my setup done till late september at the earliest.

well, seeing as no one has done WI on one of these beasts yet, I might get close. everyone I've talked to seems very interested in how much power I'll get. seeing as pre-rebuild I was pushing around 240-250kw at the flywheel, it's not that much of a stretch.

unfortunately I won't be able to do a meaningful before/after comparison with so many changes happening at the same time, but I will have a WI tune and non-WI tune to assess the power gains from the Boost Cooler stuff. people I trust have hinted at well over 200kw atw. the engine builder was slightly surprised by the 6G74 block and reckons there's a lot of power in it.

with more boost and more fuel I'm expecting 300+kw at the flywheel. 350kw would be huge, but definitely not out of the realms of possibilty.

cheers,
.wook

Since I'm likely to end up following your path, I would LOVE to agree with you, but IMO unfortunantely the numbers just don't add up. One lesson I have learnt in this game is people are always happy to throw around big numbers when speculating, but in reality in most cases you end up with a smaller number and a higher cost than what was promised to you.

It seems most workshops, even often ones with a good reputation have a tendency to promise inflated figures, and then either fail to deliver, or give you a number that simply isn't credible (i.e "happy" dyno result). Unfortunantely the reality is most people in the game are out to make money, and are happy to treat customers like idiots if/when they can get away it. And lets face it, most of us often do not have the knowledge/experience to assess the situation with any real authority before the plans have been carried out.

Start talking to genuinely knowledgable/helpful people who have no money-making or some other agenda (e.g race engineers who know the motor in question inside-out in every concievable level of mods), and you find what they have to say tends to differ to what even apparently knowledgable workshops have to say.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all this to try to put you down, just I'm sick and tired of the perpetual cycle of misinformation that floats around, usually originating from many "trusted" workshops who have a habit of giving unrealistic/exagerated estimates on power figures and cost.

Anyway, here's my 2 cents. In stock form the Sprintex kit apparently makes 225 flywheel kw. IMO with a good WI setup and a tune for it lets say 15-25kw. Then with an additional 3psi of boost I reckon something like the range of 15-25 kw. In theory it would be a bit more, but in reality with a smaller pulley the Sprintex blower is being pushed out of its efficiency range. Lets say another 5-10kw with a good exhaust system.

So IMO you are looking at the vicinity of 260kw-285kw as a realistic figure. Which is getting bloody quick in a sub-1500ke manual FWD, and will no doubt be an absolute hoot to drive. Hey I'd LOVE to see 350kw, but unfortunantely the numbers suggest otherwise.

Sorry but an extra 3psi of boost and WI is not going to magically give 100+kw, it just isn't possible.

:rant:

Since I'm likely to end up following your path, I would LOVE to agree with you, but IMO unfortunantely the numbers just don't add up. One lesson I have learnt in this game is people are always happy to throw around big numbers when speculating, but in reality in most cases you end up with a smaller number and a higher cost than what was promised to you.

It seems most workshops, even often ones with a good reputation have a tendency to promise inflated figures, and then either fail to deliver, or give you a number that simply isn't credible (i.e "happy" dyno result). Unfortunantely the reality is most people in the game are out to make money, and are happy to treat customers like idiots if/when they can get away it. And lets face it, most of us often do not have the knowledge/experience to assess the situation with any real authority before the plans have been carried out.

Start talking to genuinely knowledgable/helpful people who have no money-making or some other agenda (e.g race engineers who know the motor in question inside-out in every concievable level of mods), and you find what they have to say tends to differ to what even apparently knowledgable workshops have to say.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all this to try to put you down, just I'm sick and tired of the perpetual cycle of misinformation that floats around, usually originating from many "trusted" workshops who have a habit of giving unrealistic/exagerated estimates on power figures and cost.

Anyway, here's my 2 cents. In stock form the Sprintex kit apparently makes 225 flywheel kw. IMO with a good WI setup and a tune for it lets say 15-25kw. Then with an additional 3psi of boost I reckon something like the range of 15-25 kw. In theory it would be a bit more, but in reality with a smaller pulley the Sprintex blower is being pushed out of its efficiency range. Lets say another 5-10kw with a good exhaust system.

So IMO you are looking at the vicinity of 260kw-285kw as a realistic figure. Which is getting bloody quick in a sub-1500ke manual FWD, and will no doubt be an absolute hoot to drive. Hey I'd LOVE to see 350kw, but unfortunantely the numbers suggest otherwise.

Sorry but an extra 3psi of boost and WI is not going to magically give 100+kw, it just isn't possible.

True BUT, small things like camshaft, headwork, and other small bits and pieces can push it over the magical 300kw region, and 10.5psi isnt out of the range of the blower, it is if it inst cooled beforehand though

hey chisholm, can u bring your car out to WSID this week for a drag after last week got rained out? sorry for the thread hijack but i dont think he looks in the NSW section :D

Since I'm likely to end up following your path, I would LOVE to agree with you, but IMO unfortunantely the numbers just don't add up. One lesson I have learnt in this game is people are always happy to throw around big numbers when speculating, but in reality in most cases you end up with a smaller number and a higher cost than what was promised to you.

It seems most workshops, even often ones with a good reputation have a tendency to promise inflated figures, and then either fail to deliver, or give you a number that simply isn't credible (i.e "happy" dyno result). Unfortunantely the reality is most people in the game are out to make money, and are happy to treat customers like idiots if/when they can get away it. And lets face it, most of us often do not have the knowledge/experience to assess the situation with any real authority before the plans have been carried out.

Start talking to genuinely knowledgable/helpful people who have no money-making or some other agenda (e.g race engineers who know the motor in question inside-out in every concievable level of mods), and you find what they have to say tends to differ to what even apparently knowledgable workshops have to say.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all this to try to put you down, just I'm sick and tired of the perpetual cycle of misinformation that floats around, usually originating from many "trusted" workshops who have a habit of giving unrealistic/exagerated estimates on power figures and cost.

you're assuming that the only people I have been talking have been trying to sell me stuff, or work on my car. :nuts:

I have a workmate who runs in NSW IPRA, and I've been talking to him and his engine builder (who has built many, many race engines). there have been many other people that those people have talked (including engine builders, racers, suppliers and the like) who are genuinely interested in how much power my setup is going to make. most are talking close to 300kw just from the WI upgrade (from a base of 240kw, see below), but no one really knows. another NSW IPRA racer installed this same WI kit on his turbo'd 2 litre Corolla engine and made huge gains. the same % gains would likely see well over 300kw without touching anything else.

knowing what I know now, I would never take the advice of a certain person (we all know who), or take the advice of a workshop trying to sell me something without a grain of salt.


Anyway, here's my 2 cents. In stock form the Sprintex kit apparently makes 225 flywheel kw. IMO with a good WI setup and a tune for it lets say 15-25kw. Then with an additional 3psi of boost I reckon something like the range of 15-25 kw. In theory it would be a bit more, but in reality with a smaller pulley the Sprintex blower is being pushed out of its efficiency range. Lets say another 5-10kw with a good exhaust system.

So IMO you are looking at the vicinity of 260kw-285kw as a realistic figure. Which is getting bloody quick in a sub-1500ke manual FWD, and will no doubt be an absolute hoot to drive. Hey I'd LOVE to see 350kw, but unfortunantely the numbers suggest otherwise.

Sorry but an extra 3psi of boost and WI is not going to magically give 100+kw, it just isn't possible.

now hang on... you've based your assumptions on the standard Sprintex 225kw. by my sums, I was putting out over 240kw (169kw atw) before it blew a ring. I'm using 30% drivetrain loss which I believe is fairly common in these autos. I think you'll find Sprintex installed and tuned VRX-II up to 240kw.

on a side note, Black Beard experienced a 19kw gain by swapping all his mods from a 4 speed auto to manual (122kw atw (http://aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28440) up to 141kw atw (http://aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30330)) which, when using the 30% loss on the auto (174kw) makes the drive train loss through the manual about 10% less (~19%). if you think that might be a bit optimistic, maybe BB's auto was losing more power than 30%... that only makes my argument stronger (and my pre-rebuild power higher!). if I experienced the same "documented" gains as BB by installing a manual, I would have been pulling around 195kw atw before I blew the piston.

so lets just say I started out at 240kw before the rebuild. apparently WI allows you to advance the timing up to about 11 degrees. that's where big increases in power comes, so long as you can fuel it. I will have an ultra safe tune for non-WI (for when I get low on water/meth, or just don't feel like using all that extra fuel), but will go as aggressive as possible on the water. I'm expecting that to net around 40+kw right there (as are most people I've talked to) and that might be a little conservative.

now, the 10.5 psi pulley (and associated fueling). Jase was able to net around 36kw atw (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51353) (+42kw at the flywheel, using 20% drivetrain loss) after his 10.5psi pulley went on. why should I expect anything less than that? especially with the WI setup? so there's maybe another 40+kw.

that will give me around 320kw without taking into account better efficiency of the other mods I have to install (mainly in the fuel system)... if I run into exhaust restriction problems, that's easily fixed.

anyway, we can argue about how much power it'll make until the cows come home... it'll all come out in the wash, and when it does I'll post dyno sheets here, so stay tuned.

cheers,
.wook

Compairing other peoples cars to your own... :doubt:

Every car is different. Every motor is built and run in differently.

Also, I think you will find that Water/Meth will be quite effective on these non-cooled blowers... But be careful of any side effects on the supercharger blades...

Ill be waiting for the dyno sheets, but dont set too many expectations guys!!

Will be interesting, cant wait to see what you get wookiee!

Compairing other peoples cars to your own... :doubt:

Every car is different. Every motor is built and run in differently.

what else can I go on? if you have a particular problem with my post, quote that and we can discuss it. I think I've used available, relevant data and come to a conclusion.


Also, I think you will find that Water/Meth will be quite effective on these non-cooled blowers... But be careful of any side effects on the supercharger blades...

sigh... http://aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=888271&postcount=27


Ill be waiting for the dyno sheets, but dont set too many expectations guys!!

Will be interesting, cant wait to see what you get wookiee!

it will indeed.

cheers,
.wook

*sigh*

Im not trying to 'hack' your post up... Just dont be disapointed when you do/dont get what you expect on the dyno.

Its all about the 'feel' of the car, rather then what the rollers tell you.

Anyway...

Shotgun being there when it gets dynod.

Although i think the only way to solve this power argument is to set the standard low...

I will say about 102.8kw atw...

That way when its more.. we will all be pleasently suprised :D

Luke your points are very valid, however I still think some of the numbers you are using in your estimates are optmistic. E.g I personally think the gains from WI aren't likely to be anywhere near as good as you have been told/am hoping for.

But if you turn out to be right, I'd be very happy for you and for myself, as I will probably follow suit. I guess for a number of reasons, so far my experience in the modding game and the "good" information I have got has taught me to err on the side of skepticism, and play "devil's advocate" to your more optmistic estimates.

It really annoys me when workshops or whoever give "best case scenario" sort of estimates, and you end up with an unhappy customers who have been misled into having unrealistic expectations. Due to the nature of the game unfortunantely this is a common occurence.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting how it works out for you, I wish you all the best in getting outcomes you are happy with :)


hey chisholm, can u bring your car out to WSID this week for a drag after last week got rained out? sorry for the thread hijack but i dont think he looks in the NSW section :D

No can do at the moment Jase, however I intend to go late July/early August.

i've been told to expect up to 50hp gains with water alone and more still with a methanol mixture. im just annoyed that i havent been able to finish my setup off completly . . . one day

about these water injection kits
im guessing they spray water around the throttle body yeah?
and all they do is just cool the air? doesnt add anything to the air flow to make it work better or something?
if that makes sense :confused:
would you only use these on a supercharger setup?

about these water injection kits
im guessing they spray water around the throttle body yeah?
and all they do is just cool the air? doesnt add anything to the air flow to make it work better or something?
if that makes sense :confused:
would you only use these on a supercharger setup?

Compressing air makes it hot, which can preignite fuel if it gets hot enough. Hotter air is also less dense. Because the Sprintex can't be used with normal aftercoolers, water injection becomes pretty much the only option. WI can be used on N/A motors, often to good effect, but FI is where it comes in well.

but if you have a CAI setup wouldnt that suck in cold air?
or is it because the supercharger heats up the engine bay that much it doesnt matter what type of intake you have?
or cause the supercharger builds up heat inside the unit itself making the air hot
sorry if the questions sound dumb

As the supercharger compresses air, as a side effect it also heats it at the same time. Water that is sprayed into the intake charge absorbs heat and vaporises, thus cooling the intake charge.

Also, once the vapourised water is in the combustion chamber, apparently it has some beneficial effect(s) on the combustion process. Exactly what I do not know, but generally the end result is you can safely advance ignition timing and lean out the AFR, which gives you a power/economy increase.

after discussions with a race engine builder, I decided to take some weight out of the stock rods before getting them shot-peened. I used a 120 grit flap disk on an angle grinder. took about 15 minutes to do the first one, about 3 minutes to do the last one, probably an hour all up.

here's one about half way through...
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9959/rodsworkingrg9.jpg

you can see the lug on the small end that I'm taking off... just unnecessary weight.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3506/oldnewrods1lb0.jpg

and then I've smoothed the forge marks off the sides to lessen the chance of cracks developing along those lines.
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5598/oldnewrods2pt9.jpg

and the other side. the nipple on the side of the rod is an oil sprayer... need to keep that.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/15/oldnewrods3tv2.jpg

there's also a lug on the top of each cap which I'll be taking off tonight. stock rods and caps weighed in at about 545 grams without bolts. I hope to take about 10% off without adversely affecting the structural integrity of them. in fact, taking away those forge marks should strengthen them, or at least lessen the likelihood of cracks appearing (same difference really). depending on the weight taken off, this should increase the rev limit by about 1k.

cheers,
.wook

i hope your goin to get them balanced thats most likely what those lugs were for down the bottom

i hope your goin to get them balanced thats most likely what those lugs were for down the bottom

they will be balanced, yes. and you're right, that's most likely what those lugs were for.

EDIT:


Rod Lightening
The goal here is not only to lighten the rod, but also to reduce stress risers. It is possible to strengthen the rods by removing metal. The first step is to deflash the flanks of the beams, remove any sharp edges. This should be done moving lengthwise with the rod to avoid any grinding marks from making a stress riser across the rod. Use a grinding stone to get the larger stuff off then switch to a sanding drum for the finishing touches (still working lengthwise). Do the same for the big and small ends.
Do not take metal off the sides of the big end at the split face, this material is very important to minimize elongation. The balance pads should be as small as possible (as long as all rods weigh the same) since they don't contribute to the strength of the rods.

as long as the rods all weigh the same, should be golden!

UPDATE:

the engine should be finished this week. there have been some further delays (and developments) since my last post. I'm hoping to have it all bolted back together and on the road by the end of the month.

apparently the builder wasn't confident about the stock rods (or maybe it was what I'd done to them? there will be discussion about that). so I managed to source some Pauter 4340 forged (http://pauter.com/mitsubishi.htm) goodies from the US before the Aussie $ took a dive. don't think I'll have any rod problems in the forseeable future. :D

http://pauter.com/images/6-07_rods_015b.jpg

whilst talking to my mechanic, he mentioned that I might as well upgrade the injectors while the engine is out. I was going to wait until the after the run-in period to drop them in, but it makes more sense to do it now.

those who remember TZABOY's rebuild will know that there's not much clearance between the fuel rail and the Sprintex kit. this concerned me greatly. enough to be worried about even a 5mm change in injector height.

big thanks to Tim @ Raptor (Tradewind). he was able to source some higher capacity (470cc/min) injectors which were exactly the same height as the stock ones. they are in fact exactly the same size. I will take some snaps over the weekend. if you've got a Sprintex kit and need more fueling, drop him a PM for a super price and great service ;)

so that's the couple of changes that HAVE happened... there will probably be a GE kit coming, and there's also a brake upgrade in the making!! :badgrin:

cheers,
.wook

Thanks for the update, looks like you're almost near the end. Still going for a WI kit?

Thanks for the update, looks like you're almost near the end. Still going for a WI kit?

yeah, going to finish up the wiring for it this weekend. it will be installed after I run the engine in (in conjunction with the smaller pulley and a re-tune).

there's a bunch of pics I need to upload. lol

it's so close now that any slight delay is killing me. coming up to 7 months!!!

i think you will find the cp pistons and the rods you have chosen will give a very free revving engine with surprising torque. If you use an ultrafine hone on the bores these cp items bed in beautifully and the engine feels much more torquey than you would expect from the realtively low CR.

I have no doubt that once you have run it in and put the boost up with WI you will get 300kw or more at the flywheel.

coming up to 7 months!!!

Mine was off the road for 11 months!!!

But good choice on getting forged conrods aswell as the obvious forged pistons. No point doing the rebuild half assed.

those who remember TZABOY's rebuild will know that there's not much clearance between the fuel rail and the Sprintex kit. this concerned me greatly. enough to be worried about even a 5mm change in injector height.
The rails fit no dramas as long as you just cut the big flanges off each end and weld the connectors on. Main reason i went that was was because i got the big injectors for nothing. Good score on the 470cc's though

woot!!!

engine is back together and on the way to the mechanics for install.

need to call and book it in.

now... some pics!

here's some stuff that's yet to be installed...

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3613/thelotpv6.jpg

CP forged goodness! these are obviously in the engine now! didn't grab any pics of the rods :(

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1212/piston1bw3.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6239/pistonbq0.jpg

stock injector vs DENSO 470cc injector. not much different at all. the biggest difference is the nozzle, which is HUGE on the 470cc ones!!

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1329/injector1sq7.jpg

more pics...

race spec poly engine mounts courtesy of Megatron. PM him for these at a really good price.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/561/polymountsfg7.jpg

Walbro GSS 342 fuel pump. gotta feed those injectors somehow!

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7519/walbropumpma9.jpg

Odyssey PC680 metal covered solid gel type battery. good for mounting anywhere you want. still need to find space for the water reservoir, but I have a good idea where it's going.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/706/batterykm3.jpg

oh yeah, those red things... mmm, Brembos.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/473/brembospd7.jpg

cheers,
.wook

Your CP's are very similar to my forgies i got from special piston services. the only difference i can see from the shots is that i have a slightly higher top on the piston as i retained the higher compression but thats just what i can see.

Hurry up and get the bastard running so we can all go "oowwww . . . . . . ahhhhh"

Your CP's are very similar to my forgies i got from special piston services. the only difference i can see from the shots is that i have a slightly higher top on the piston as i retained the higher compression but thats just what i can see.

Hurry up and get the bastard running so we can all go "oowwww . . . . . . ahhhhh"

yeah yeah yeah... it's hardly my fault the mechanics are busy.

added up some numbers today. wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry.

I'm sure it'll all be worth it when the car's on the road. at least I hope it will.

Where did you end up scoring the CPs from? What did they set you back? Like the rods too. Yum.

Luke have you gone some big head work and cams wook

My god i wish I had money
Everything there looks awesome man, simply awesome.

Those pics are pure porn. Don't worry about the money as it's too late now :P At least you'll have a huge smile on your dial every time you drive that beast when it's all done.

Regarding the WI reservoir, have you thought about mounting it on top of the front cam cover? The cam cover has 3 nice support pillars where the engine cover normally mounts to which i think could make a good support for a WI reservoir if done properly.

loving this thread.... will be going down the same path in a little while myself guess...
those are soem nice rods and pistons!!

thanks guys... I wish I had money now too!! lol

the CPs I picked up from a mob in the US. I won't recommend them here, as they are affiliated with an ass in WA (and they only ship to him). about $1000 to my door.

the rods were a little more expensive, $1300 delivered again from the US. they came from www.importperformanceparts.net.

no extensive head work. he cleaned up the valves a bit, but reckoned it was flowing pretty well anyway. if I'm not entirely happy with the results, I'm sure there'll be more headwork and cams and so on...

wrt the WI reservoir, unfortunately I don't have the rocker cover with the mounts on it, and I don't think the reservoir would fit there anyway. I'm going to remove the standard airbox and put piping to a pod down by the bumper. that should give me enough room where the airbox used to live to fit my 7L water bottle.

the mechanics are apparently crazy busy... 3 weeks until they can install it. :(

cheers,
.wook

7L Tank??:shock: do u have to keep filling it up? how much will it use say p/100k's?

with your new battery I'm sure you will be able to fit it there.. However I'd be trying to relocate it out of the engine bay to keep it cool..... or running it through a radiator like my Water/Air intercooler before it is injected into wherever it gets injected too lol

7L Tank??:shock: do u have to keep filling it up? how much will it use say p/100k's?

with your new battery I'm sure you will be able to fit it there.. However I'd be trying to relocate it out of the engine bay to keep it cool..... or running it through a radiator like my Water/Air intercooler before it is injected into wherever it gets injected too lol

Yeah im agree, keeping the water as cool as possible will benefit power wise, i did see an interested setup the other day, they had a 20l Drum (like the one truck wash comes into) and had 2 pumps in the boot and it was piped into the engine bay into the inlet. Even though its not the best looking setup it certainly was effective, as they got an extra 32hp out of it on a rb25det. And the cost was around 100 bucks. They had it wired into there microtech output so it was RPM based.

You could look at getting an alloy tank made up to suit the battery box, or for the boot. At least it will look rather cool.

no extensive head work. he cleaned up the valves a bit, but reckoned it was flowing pretty well anyway. if I'm not entirely happy with the results, I'm sure there'll be more headwork and cams and so on...



Nice to see it coming along Luke, eagerly anticipating the results :)

After talking to a few knowledgable people about this, the general consensus seems to be that for low-moderate boost levels, there isn't much/if anything to be gained in flowing our heads.

Of course NA is a different story, definantely need some headwork for anything remotely approaching a serious build.

Not sure about cams with the Sprintex, but I know Sports has gone a fairly serious custom grind with his build, so perhaps ask him what he knows about this.

Yeah im agree, keeping the water as cool as possible will benefit power wise, i did see an interested setup the other day, they had a 20l Drum (like the one truck wash comes into) and had 2 pumps in the boot and it was piped into the engine bay into the inlet. Even though its not the best looking setup it certainly was effective, as they got an extra 32hp out of it on a rb25det. And the cost was around 100 bucks. They had it wired into there microtech output so it was RPM based.

You could look at getting an alloy tank made up to suit the battery box, or for the boot. At least it will look rather cool.

I know with my setup just the radiator keeps the water cool... not sure on temps and stuff but the water is by no means "hot" after a 4/5hr drive... in the middle of the day.

I know with my setup just the radiator keeps the water cool... not sure on temps and stuff but the water is by no means "hot" after a 4/5hr drive... in the middle of the day.

Yeah you are talking about a Water to Air intercooler though, being this is an injected setup its completely different, because yours has a pump to pump the water from the tank to the intercooler then to the radiator then back to the tank, which is pretty much the same principle has a conventional engine cooling system. using the radiator to cool the heated water from the interrcooler. Now being that his water is only being used once, so from the tank through the lines into the inlet, he wont require a radiator because there is no heat transfer occuring or needed in this case. So if he mounts his tank in a secured location shielded from radiated heat from the motor he will get consistant water injection temps. Or if you want to go fancy you can use a warmer/cooler of sorts to keep the injection water at the same temp. Like a fridge really.

not sure that the temperature of the water matters. the water cools the charged air by evaporation, not by transference or conduction.

I've been told that around the track (I think it was Eastern Creek, lots of WOT) it'll empty the 1.9L reservoir in about 3-5 laps. since I will be taking this car to the track, I didn't want to come in half way through a session to refill the water, so I got the bigger (6.5L) reservoir.

just driving around town, I would be surprised if it emptied the larger one before I used a full tank of petrol.

Dan and I have thought about how to set this up, and we've installed an on/off switch on the dash, and a low fluid indicator which will automatically cut the water pump and switch tunes. also going to have light to let me know when the system is working!

I've thought about running either the reservoir or the battery in the boot. the battery would be a pain in the ass. the reservoir makes more sense, but there's still a bunch of wiring and piping that need to be run to the pump (under the bonnet) and the controller (under the dash) which just makes it more feasible to find somewhere closer.

and I get to use a pod filter!! (I guess I could do that anyway!!)

cheers,
.wook

that site is great wookie they have cam gears for our engines and at a good price to

here's an idea for your WI tank wook, I think my setup is as neat as it can get



http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7131/dsc00312vv1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/703/dsc00313pp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/dsc00313pp3.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img232/dsc00313pp3.jpg/1/)

these showed up today! yay for camber and castor!!

www.wilkinsonsuspension.com.au. mention AMC and ask for the club price.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6973/struttop1of0.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3224/struttop2nm0.jpg

cheers,
.wook

here's an idea for your WI tank wook, I think my setup is as neat as it can get

I'm thinking right between the fuse box and the strut.

should be able to get a decent mount point there, and I don't need to move my battery to the boot.

what brand of rods did you end up getting????

what brand of rods did you end up getting????
http://aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=918526&postcount=60

Are those strut tops solid or poly mount? Gonna stick with the Lovells and koni yellows, or got to a more track-focused setup? (e.g you could get the konis revalved and made into coilovers to suit different springs)

they are solid tops. for the time being I'll stick with the Lovells and Konis. might end up with some compressed Kings if a mate uses some Bilstein coilovers instead of his current setup.

because these strut tops raise the ride height by about 15mm, the Lovells might face the grinder in the near future.

T minus 3 weeks and counting.

Wow... what a big (and well planned) project.

I'd love to have a snoop :)

I think I live in the same "weary" suburb as you - do you like home brew???

:p

hah, yeah, I heard it's a good brand of tyre too.

hmmm, home brew. once all the car parts are out of the way I'll have enough space to start up a couple of fermentors.

the car's being picked up Monday morning. hope to have it back by Friday. T -10 days and counting!!!

That's it: Pirelli.

I wasn't suggesting you brew - I was offering to walk one one or two over (stout, dark, porter or Euro lager?) one Saturday arvo for a peak :-)

Anyway, good luck for 10 days time!

I think he's trying to hit on you wook man.

I think he's trying to hit on you wook man.

lol 1 2 3 4 5 characters

because these strut tops raise the ride height by about 15mm, the Lovells might face the grinder in the near future.

T minus 3 weeks and counting.


Im confused.

Why would you spend money in adjsutable camber tops, if your going to install compressed, or cut springs :S

Im confused.

Why would you spend money in adjsutable camber tops, if your going to install compressed, or cut springs :S

Im agreeing here, a set of CM kings are the choice here, and rate them up with the chosen shock, similar to Chisholms dream setup

the only reason I would change the springs is if the handling suffers from being an extra 15mm higher.

and anyway, what does changing springs have to do with installing adjustable strut tops? the springs don't have that much effect on the camber/caster.

you act like compressed or cut springs will make it handle like a dog :nuts:

and anyway, what does changing springs have to do with installing adjustable strut tops? the springs don't have that much effect on the camber/caster.



Most people get adjustable strut tops for either Bling, or performance benefits. Ill assume yours are not for Bling, but rather to fine tune your suspension setup to get the most out of it both on the circuit, and on the street.

With this being noted, choping (illegal), or compressing springs will have a serious, negative effect on handling, making the addition of strut tops kind of pointless :S



you act like compressed or cut springs will make it handle like a dog :nuts:


Thats because they will

Thats because they will

I agree with you at about 85%, maybe even 90. I have chopped springs in my car. My rears, I have had a little bit taken off them just to give my car an even stance so it isnt nose down. In no way what so ever has his affect my ride. I am running quiet an agressive suspension setup and in 5 years driving the springs are still in place, not bent and not showing signs of wear.

But yes, it is illegal, and yes, if your like one of them fulli sik guys and chop your springs in half to dump da EB omg brooo then your are a tool, but its always a good laugh as it bounces all over the road:bowrofl:

BACK ON TOPIC :D

I cant wait for this to be finished, will be one crazy ride! All the best Wook!

the only reason I would change the springs is if the handling suffers from being an extra 15mm higher.

and anyway, what does changing springs have to do with installing adjustable strut tops? the springs don't have that much effect on the camber/caster.

you act like compressed or cut springs will make it handle like a dog :nuts:

Well if knocking 0.3 of a second off my wakefield time (with much improved tyre wear) and 1 second off my hillclimb times is a sign of something being bad for handling then the part coil I removed from my custom kings on advice from a well respected suspension guy when I put my strut tops in was bad for handling...

It is ideal to get custom springs made up which I had done a while ago. Since then I have replaced the std koni's with yellows the strut is slightly shorter which means i could run an even higher spring rate on the front now, the rear shocks have already been shortened as far as can be done and are running as high spring rate as possible. Because I cannot up the rates all round I have left them as is and it seems to be working pretty well!

Cummins

Well if knocking 0.3 of a second off my wakefield time (with much improved tyre wear) and 1 second off my hillclimb times is a sign of something being bad for handling then the part coil I removed from my custom kings on advice from a well respected suspension guy when I put my strut tops in was bad for handling...

It is ideal to get custom springs made up which I had done a while ago. Since then I have replaced the std koni's with yellows the strut is slightly shorter which means i could run an even higher spring rate on the front now, the rear shocks have already been shortened as far as can be done and are running as high spring rate as possible. Because I cannot up the rates all round I have left them as is and it seems to be working pretty well!

Cummins

agree with you.. (sorry for the side post wook, i have been keeping an eye on this thread though!)

some springs can be cut down safely.. for example the rear king lows for 3rd gen.. you can safely remove one full top coil (the dead bound together ones) to lower the rear another 10-13mm.. without any noticable compromise in ride quality or handling.. i actually think it handles better now, as it's not so low at the front compared to the back.. the sills are level..

Correct me if I'm wrong Wook... but your car gets moved today doesn't it...?.

Bet you can't wait... EVEN I cant wait . HAHA

yeah, it went on the flatbed today.

waiting on diff bearings (should be in today), but they can start putting the engine back together. hopefully the gearbox and diff will be finished tofay or tomorrow, and everything will be ready to go by Friday!

woot!

and so it begins

question: (sorry if its been posted up already but) what sort of power figure will you be looking at?

yeah, it went on the flatbed today.
hopefully the gearbox and diff will be finished tofay or tomorrow, and everything will be ready to go by Friday!



Well you wont see that back before xmas..:)

question: (sorry if its been posted up already but) what sort of power figure will you be looking at?

has kinda been covered. not looking at anything special on the run-in tune.

at the moment I'm not willing to speculate about 11psi + WI. safer to just say enough (for a little while anyway).

cheers,
.wook

Sweet..bring on the 400KW ATW! I can already see the 11 second quarters and sub 1min wakefield times! Someone please tell me I am expecting too much...

Sweet..bring on the 400KW ATW! I can already see the 11 second quarters and sub 1min wakefield times! Someone please tell me I am expecting too much...

Yeah not out of a sprintex unit...

you're funny Dan. I think a 1:11 @ Wakefield and a 49 @ Fairbairn Park would be enough... how about you? :P

all signs are pointing to not getting it back until next week at the moment. grrr!

.wook

...might be like me...maybe add a few stickers and it'll go even faster! I'm sure the Wild stickers added an extra 50kw to get me that 0.7sec improvement, the only logical explanation!

I think ur on the money, anything more will be a bonus...

...might be like me...maybe add a few stickers and it'll go even faster! I'm sure the Wild stickers added an extra 50kw to get me that 0.7sec improvement, the only logical explanation!

I think ur on the money, anything more will be a bonus...

about what? the lap times, or getting the car back (or both)?

nice avatar mate... got stickers? :P

about what? the lap times, or getting the car back (or both)?

nice avatar mate... got stickers? :P
:cool:

Lower lap times mate...definately hope gettin the car back doesn't take any longer!

all signs are pointing to not getting it back until next week at the moment. grrr!


Hope you do.. Im down next tue.. i wanna see..:)


It starts of with it wont be ready to early next week now, then its early next month. Then before you know it its early next year and ill have mine done before yours is back..:)

Hope you do.. Im down next tue.. i wanna see..:)


It starts of with it wont be ready to early next week now, then its early next month. Then before you know it its early next year and ill have mine done before yours is back..:)

So often the case...... I'm sorry Wook - but I lol'd when I read your "left today, g/box should be done by tomorrow" comment.

If I was a betting man - I'd say a month.

11psi!!!??? what size pulley you running? i've got the 55mm pulley running 10psi. Have u spoken to sprintex about the max revs u can spin the charger??

I spoke to a very, very respected tuner in Sydney today, who was tuned cars all around the world. He laid some doubts in my head regarding WI injecting in general.

Anyway, who are you getting to tune your car ? Would you mind pming me their number to discuss a similar WI kit that I im looking at for my ride.

11psi!!!??? what size pulley you running? i've got the 55mm pulley running 10psi. Have u spoken to sprintex about the max revs u can spin the charger??

meh, 10, 11, who's really keeping score...?

yeah, it'll be the 55mm pulley. I thought it was good for 10.5 - 11psi.


I spoke to a very, very respected tuner in Sydney today, who was tuned cars all around the world. He laid some doubts in my head regarding WI injecting in general.

Anyway, who are you getting to tune your car ? Would you mind pming me their number to discuss a similar WI kit that I im looking at for my ride.

it's Autotech (http://www.yellowpages.com.au/bi/autotech-services-act-hume-act-5678120.html), but they're not touching my WI kit until the engine's run in. talk to Ed or Paul if you do call.

what sort of doubts do you now have about WI? I know it's a bandaid for overly high temperatures, but there really isn't anything else we can do with the Sprintex blowers, even though some people are "trying" to put together an intercooler. strangely, we haven't heard anything about that for a while. I guess they need more people to fund the R&D... er... buy an unfinished product... er... lol

I just don't see a viable alternative.

cheers,
.wook

meh, 10, 11, who's really keeping score...?

yeah, it'll be the 55mm pulley. I thought it was good for 10.5 - 11psi.



it's Autotech (http://www.yellowpages.com.au/bi/autotech-services-act-hume-act-5678120.html), but they're not touching my WI kit until the engine's run in. talk to Ed or Paul if you do call.

what sort of doubts do you now have about WI? I know it's a bandaid for overly high temperatures, but there really isn't anything else we can do with the Sprintex blowers, even though some people are "trying" to put together an intercooler. strangely, we haven't heard anything about that for a while. I guess they need more people to fund the R&D... er... buy an unfinished product... er... lol

I just don't see a viable alternative.

cheers,
.wook

Well I always understood it was a pretty handy idea, and theres a few guys running massive numbers overseas with it.

Ill go down and talk to him in person to try to fully understand why is directing me away from it.

finally got all the pieces in the same location... long story, so I won't bore anyone with it.

hope to be back on the road by mid to late next week.

cheers,
.wook

Lets hope all goes will in the coming weeks :cool:

how fares thee wookie?

went to visit my car this afternoon in fact.

the engine is almost ready to go back into the car. just need some longer flywheel bolts at the moment.

should be on the rollers Monday or Wednesday, seeing as we get Tuesday off for Melbourne Cup day.

cheers,
.wook

seeing as we get Tuesday off for Melbourne Cup day.

cheers,
.wook

Yay for Canberra!

Good luck with the engine install :)

UPDATE:

the car's running and I've actually driven it

the manual works just fine (have to depress the clutch to start)

haven't had a chance to test the cruise (only drove around the corner from the dyno to the garage)

the manual drive shafts I had weren't ABS :nuts: so the mechanic had to make an ABS set out of the two sets

the engine temp wire seems to have been disconnected from the SMT6 during the removal or installation of the engine.

the car's running really rich at the moment, due to the bigger (470cc vs 275cc) injectors. the Fuel Zero Calibration of the SMT6 can be adjusted in 39mV increments to account for the ~70% increase in fuel flow. it just hasn't happened yet. not sure what the problem with that is :doubt:

there's been talk of re-installing the stock injectors for the run in period (grr!).

I've also been told I'll get the car last Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then yesterday... so I have no idea when I'm actually going to get the car back.

so frustrating!!!

so frustrating!!!
think on the plus side at least it runs and you've driven it

Luke, any idea how they set up your cruise control? I dropped my car off at the workshop today for the manual conversion. They said they should be able to sort out the cruise control but it would be good to give them a heads up if possibe.

im booked in for thursday, any info i get ill forward

im booked in for thursday, any info i get ill forward
Thanks dude

yeah, Dan (Cummins) and I did the wiring for the cruise.

I thought I had my head around it, but maybe I don't.

the inhibitor is switched off and on via a clutch switch (just a stock brake switch, something like $30 from Mitsu). Dan reckons that *might* be all you need to do, as the inhibitor thinks the car is in D or R when the clutch is engaged.

but we did some more wiring anyway, just to be sure...

from the right hand side of the image below, we installed a relay to connect the clutch switch to wire 13 in the Cruise ECU (B-101). that *should* work exactly as the manual cars do.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/2058/cruisegl6.jpg

if I had my car back I could let you all know whether it does or not. :nuts:

cheers,
.wook

UPDATE:

almost there... just a little bit of wiring and then a tune!

the Sprintex setup only intercepts the crank angle sensor, and uses a MAP to tune the 7th injector. it has no control over the other 6 injectors.

this means I gained 10kw atw and used 1L/100km less just by ignition timing and fueling to the 7th injector :nuts: I can't wait to see what sort of gains can be made when you have control over all 7!!

good thing I had a wiring harness from when I purchased the unlocked SMT6.

cheers,
.wook

Thats bloody great,good job.

UPDATE:

almost there... just a little bit of wiring and then a tune!

the Sprintex setup only intercepts the crank angle sensor, and uses a MAP to tune the 7th injector. it has no control over the other 6 injectors.


good thing I had a wiring harness from when I purchased the unlocked SMT6.



Yep, that's how Sprintex have it set up, the fueling is varied purely through the 7th injector. It works ok and saved them money/labour, that's why they did it.

Seems very primitive, but IMO in practice isn't as bad as it sounds, I'm still not convinced there's much of a distribution problem from the 7th injector.

Still, if you are running water/meth you are no longer relying much on the 7th injector for cooling, so it make sense to move more of the fueling from the 7th injector to the other 6. Although in practice I doubt it really matters much - it doesn't really matter where the fuel comes from as long as it gets into the combustion chambers atomised properly.

Yep, that's how Sprintex have it set up, the fueling is varied purely through the 7th injector. It works ok and saved them money/labour, that's why they did it.

Seems very primitive, but IMO in practice isn't as bad as it sounds, I'm still not convinced there's much of a distribution problem from the 7th injector.

Still, if you are running water/meth you are no longer relying much on the 7th injector for cooling, so it make sense to move more of the fueling from the 7th injector to the other 6. Although in practice I doubt it really matters much - it doesn't really matter where the fuel comes from as long as it gets into the combustion chambers atomised properly.

it matters a lot when you upgrade the stock injectors with ones that flow over 70% more for the same signal.

the distribution problem exists. everyone that I know of has popped the same piston (front bank, drivers side). unless that's pure coincidence?

when it's finally tuned the 7th injector will be on the lowest duty cycle possible, just to keep the screws wet.

it matters a lot when you upgrade the stock injectors with ones that flow over 70% more for the same signal.

the distribution problem exists. everyone that I know of has popped the same piston (front bank, drivers side). unless that's pure coincidence?

when it's finally tuned the 7th injector will be on the lowest duty cycle possible, just to keep the screws wet.

Fair enough, obviously if you are going to be upsizing injectors, you need to be able to scale them.

A margin of unequal distribution would probably be a factor (although it could be something else as well), but IMO the main reason for people popping pistons has been detonation caused by tunes that don't pull back ignition timing when necessary (i.e when intake temps get too hot) like the Sprintex tune does.

My tune's AFR is 12:1@WOT, but keeping the ignition timing control Sprintex implemented (dual maps). Yet my motor seems rock solid, has survived full track days and the drags just fine. I think that says something - fueling has not been the cause of breakages, it's inadequate control over ignition timing from 3rd party tunes.

I agree a distribution issue exists, but IMO it has been a contributing factor, not the main cause of breakages. Also I'm willing to bet like most motors, there's some distribution inconsistency across cylinders from the factory. This is a common occurence, autospeed did an article on it a while ago where they found a margin distribution inconsistency across common stock motors.

If this is the case with our motors (IMO likely), the same inconsistency in distribution across cylinders is going to exist regardless whether you are running a 7th injector or not.

Also JasonsVRX has commented that he found inconsistency between the shape/size of combustion chambers in his magna heads - a common scenario in mass-produced motors no doubt.

Either way, I agree that moving some fueling from the 7th injector to the other 6 is the right way to go about it, as you now have water/meth to provide cooling and sealing.

Eagerly looking forward to seeing your results Luke.

Also I'm willing to bet like most motors, there's some distribution inconsistency across cylinders from the factory.

The Magna intake manifold is the culprit in uneven cylinder distribution. It's pretty much the same cause between allot of cars. The VN series 2 had a little bell mouth fitted just after the throttle body to help counteract this problem.

The Magna intake manifold is the culprit in uneven cylinder distribution. It's pretty much the same cause between allot of cars. The VN series 2 had a little bell mouth fitted just after the throttle body to help counteract this problem.
the intake manifold is replaced with the sprintex kit

the intake manifold is replaced with the sprintex kit

Taking your very valid point into consideration, I now realize the relevance of my input in this situation is negligible. :shifty:

Talking to Luke on the phone today, he is one stressed out little camper.

he is having to revert back to the stock injectors to get the car tuned and running. I'll let him tell the story but i'm feeling for the guy

of all the crappy luck I've had with this rebuild, this has to be the worst...

it turns out that they couldn't tune the bigger injectors with the SMT6. so it's back to stock injectors for the run in period.

at least the car will be in my hands very soon. hopefully this arvo!

If you dont mind me asking.

what was the problem tuning the SMT6 as thats what i will be running with my bigger injectors(same as the ones you have.)

If you dont mind me asking.

what was the problem tuning the SMT6 as thats what i will be running with my bigger injectors(same as the ones you have.)

Its what i thought that might happen, the SMT6 cannot control the 6 primary injectors it can only do the 7th injector/crank angle.


the Sprintex setup only intercepts the crank angle sensor, and uses a MAP to tune the 7th injector. it has no control over the other 6 injectors.

sounds like its time to invest in raptors piggy back.. u should be able to get one that also provides u with the option for meth injection aswell.

as for the cause of all these blown engines.. im with chisholm, it has to be heat related moreso than fueling.. after all, im running a booster injector (while its substantially bigger than the sprintex kit its still only a 7th injector thats between the throttle body and the manifold... and i have the factory manifold so its still going to be subject to the factory inconsistencies...

hopefully wook's out enjoying his car now :)

sounds like its time to invest in raptors piggy back..




Working on that lol

but also looking into a haltech tomorrow

Working on that lol

but also looking into a haltech tomorrow

As i was saying to brad earlier, a haltech will probably be better for his application, due to the ease of it getting retuned or if a problem exists going and seeing a haltech dealer.
Same with the OP, a haltech will probably be the way to go as most shops are haltech tuners/dealers and know there way around them. Will save money that way. As for the full replacement, yeah there are many benefits but i think it will be overkill for what he is planning. A miniceptor/interceptor will be fine.

I can't say too much about H***** but I have a customer who waited 8 weeks recently for a simple repair and thats far from isolated example.

the SMT6 *can* control the other injectors, but it does so by intercepting the signal from the MAF sensor.

for what it's worth, I'm not an electrician nor a tuner, but there's a couple of problems with this...

the MAF sensor signal is digital, the SMT6 map wants an analogue signal. the installation doco on the SMT6 says that you can accept a digital signal (it calls it a frequency-based unipolar signal), but in practice it's apparently much harder than the doco makes it seem.

the MAF sensor signal is a fairly low voltage signal (approx 1.2v). when you upgrade the injectors by a large percentage (like the 71% that I did), you need to deflect that signal by approximately that amount. that makes the output from the SMT6 to the ECU about 0.4v. voltages that low make tuning really hard!

beware!! the above might demonstrate my complete lack of knowledge about tuning! lol

I have been on the phone with TZABOY a couple of time over the last week. the setup that he is running (440cc injectors and a Chiptorque Xede) *should* suffer from the same problems as I ran into. but apparently it's running just fine. my tuner reckoned that piggyback can only adjust +/- 25%, but Jase has +60% injectors :doubt:

that's why I'm throwing the stock injectors back in, putting the Sprintex SMT6 back into the car, and when the engine is run in, I'm driving to Sydney to see if the guys that tuned Jase's car can have a crack at mine.

failing that, it'll most likely be the ProSequential from Raptor, as that piggyback actually controls fueling for the injectors. so long as it can handle the 7th injector on low duty cycle, I'll be laughing.

cheers,
.wook

MAF output is a frequency, not a voltage. SMT6 runs out of puff pretty quickly when you ask it to do something like this.

I was hoping you'd chime in Heath...


2.6.1 LOAD SENSOR SIGNAL

The load sensor uses one of two signals. It can either be an analog signal similar to the TPS signal or it can be a frequency-based signal. The frequency-based signal is similar to the uni-polar signal.

For frequency-based tuning, the SMT6 needs to run in standard ignition frequency fuel mode in the Windows software. This can be set in the “Global Settings”, “Modes”. Select “10-Single ignition advance and retard + frequency fuel”. You will also need to know the lowest and highest frequency the sensor uses. This can be measured on a scope. The SMT6 can be set to recognise two different ranges of frequencies in the “Global Settings”, “System Config”. When “High frequency” is enabled (“ON”), the frequency range is changed from 10-3,3kHz to 80-18kHz. It may take a bit of “trial and error” to establish the range you do have. An incorrect setting will result in either flat fuel at low loads, if the mode is high when it should be low or flat fuel at high loads, if the mode is low when it should be high.

so is it a high frequency range or low frequency range?

and what do you mean by running out of puff? if it can deflect the frequency enough, it should be fine. there are 127 39mV increments at which it can be set to decrease the signal. I would have thought that might cover it...?

cheers,
.wook

Wook

Yep the ProSequential absolutely can control the 7th injector fine, has one complete table devoted to the additional injector for those who use one.

car's back in my hands. :shock:

pulls hard to 4k (which is as far as I'm taking it for the few couple of thousand k's).

the cruise control works except for cutting out when you hit the brakes... need to think about that a little bit.

sounds awesome too!

:D

car's back in my hands. :shock:

pulls hard to 4k (which is as far as I'm taking it for the few couple of thousand k's).

the cruise control works except for cutting out when you hit the brakes... need to think about that a little bit.

sounds awesome too!

:D
Cruise control is supposed to cut out when you hit the brakes.

Good to hear mate have you got any wkw figures, i know you still have stock injectors but still wouldn't mind to see what she pulled.

car's back in my hands. :shock:

pulls hard to 4k (which is as far as I'm taking it for the few couple of thousand k's).

the cruise control works except for cutting out when you hit the brakes... need to think about that a little bit.

sounds awesome too!

:D
Haha awesome work it sure has been a long time coming! Need some vids of the beast.

With the cruise control, does it completely turn off when you hit the brakes? What happens when you depress the clutch?

car's back in my hands. :shock:

pulls hard to 4k (which is as far as I'm taking it for the few couple of thousand k's).

the cruise control works except for cutting out when you hit the brakes... need to think about that a little bit.

sounds awesome too!

:D

does the cruise cut out when you up a steep hill and your in too high of a gear?


good to hear you got ur car back...

do u have the WI kit in yet?

in regards to the wi the controller for it, does it interact with the STM6 at all? what happens if it stops working will you know before its too late?

Cruise control is supposed to cut out when you hit the brakes.
thank you captain obvious!

I said it all works EXCEPT FOR cutting out when you hit the brakes (i.e. it DOESN"T cut out when you hit the brakes!).

we didn't touch any of the brake wiring, so I'll have to dig around in the ECU diagrams to see what might have affected it.

no power figures... it's a new engine man! it needs to be run in first. and I have the safe Sprintex tuned SMT6 in it at the moment, so I wouldn't expect more than about 180 atw.

cheers,
.wook

ok, maybe I worded it poorly. :redface: the cruise DOESN'T cut out like it should when you hit the brakes. meh, I can live with it for a little while. a tap of the clutch and it cuts out!

no WI yet. that's coming with the smaller pulley.

need to change my sig.

ok, maybe I worded it poorly. :redface: the cruise DOESN'T cut out like it should when you hit the brakes. meh, I can live with it for a little while. a tap of the clutch and it cuts out!
So did you set up the cruise control exactly like you mentioned in this post (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=946316&postcount=130)? Coz that's the info i gave to the workshop today for them to use when they wire up my cruise control in a couple of days. Might have to word them up on the issue you are having.

Should be pretty easy to set up, just have the brake light circuit control a relay that connects at the same place as the clutch pedal cut out.

yeah, so I've been spoiled by driving the Jetta around for the last 8 months...

the brake cutout on the cruise control works, you just need to really hit the brakes, not tap them. I will play around with the positioning of the brake switch to see if I can make as responsive as the clutch switch.

a note on the diff/speedo ring gear... subject to GPS confirmation, I think I have been sent the automatic ring gear for the Quaife diff (grrr, I refuse to deal with the supplier!!). I think I'm running about 10% slower than the indicated speed which I think would makes sense seeing as there's about a 10% difference in the final drive ratio between the 4sp auto and the 5sp manual.

there's at least a couple of ways to deal with this, and I think I'll go with a frequency modulator on the speed sensor wire to drop it by the percentage required. that's got to be less hassle (and less $$) than getting a different speedo ring gear installed on the diff!!

on a side note... MANUAL CONVERSION FTW!!!!

I can't believe how much harder this thing pulls without the fluid based torque converter!

cheers,
.wook

just had to post this up...

when I went to pick up my car today I had my Sprintex locked SMT6 to plug in, just so I had a safe tune with which to run my engine in.

when I got there my mechanic/tuner said he had finally figured out how to modulate the MAF signal and tune the 6 injectors using the SMT6. :shock: to make things worse, I had been telling him how to do that since Wednesday! oh yeah, I paid for that R&D time, even after we had decided to put the stock injectors back in.

he still thinks the 470cc injectors are too big to run clean idle mixes on *any* piggyback (including including the piggyback TZABOY is running with his 440cc injectors).

he has, however, offered to tune my car for free if I can show up with the bigger injectors installed and an idle AFR of 14.7:1.

I'm thinking of accepting the challenge...

he has, however, offered to tune my car for free if I can show up with the bigger injectors installed and an idle AFR of 14.7:1.

I'm thinking of accepting the challenge...

It might pay to PM stacky on this one as he is running the 470cc injectors and he has had a tune done with a morristech and had no trouble with the idle AFAIK

It might pay to PM stacky on this one as he is running the 470cc injectors and he has had a tune done with a morristech and had no trouble with the idle AFAIK

from all the info Tim (Tradewind) has supplied, the ProSequential actually controls the injectors. most other piggybacks intercept the MAF signal to the ECU and modulate the frequency. I'm going to talk to TZABOY's tuner and see how they tuned the 440cc injectors.

it will be worth the trip to Sydney if I don't need to buy another computer.

cheers,
.wook