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BiG 4 CyL
30-04-2008, 08:04 PM
hey guys,

could sound like a stupid one but i thought id throw it out there

as the car was happily rattling away today, i wondered, being it the balance chain and not the timing chain,

1) what is the balance chain and what does it do?

and

2) can it be removed or adjusted to eliminate the rattling?

any other info that may help?

cheers tim

Lucifer
30-04-2008, 09:21 PM
It can be removed... BCX7 knows a fair amount about this problem and how to solve it :)

magna buff
30-04-2008, 09:38 PM
this balance chain has its own self tensioner C

adjusting the special bolt B should tension the that chain

I thought the noise went away after the rebuild

Im not happy if the noise is there again

Lucifer
30-04-2008, 09:45 PM
this balance chain has its own self tensioner
... which is prone to breakage, hence why the rattle occurs after the tensioner fails.

Balance chain deletion kits are available and work well on these engines as the balance chain assembly isn't exactly required. Gotta pull the motor out of your car iirc...

magna buff
30-04-2008, 09:54 PM
Big 4
All I can do is look at your chains again

try adjusting the special bolt B again

if no better let me know :nuts:

Madmagna
02-05-2008, 06:44 PM
If you install the chain properly, do not use a cheap rubbish version and ensure that the oil line to the tensioner is properly cleaned out when installing, you will usually get approx 100k from a chain set.

9 times out of 10 it is the balance chain that will rattle, it is not much more than a bike chain being forced to run the oil pump and 2 heavy shafts.

You are best off removing it with the eliminator kit, will cost about 35 bucks for the kit HOWEVER with the second gen you are then faced with the oil pressured tensioner, you will need to either use a first gen oil pump or block the oil feed hole.

Before people tell you the engine will vibrate like a pig, if your mounts are all in tip top shape, the engine is tuned properly, the amount of vibration will hardly be noticeable.

kempeowen
02-05-2008, 09:05 PM
Madmagna removed my chain, the 2 counter balance shafts and fitted an oil pump from the first gen and I can confirm there is no vibration or misfiring when this is done properly:thumbsup:

JDART
02-05-2008, 10:24 PM
Madmagna removed my chain, the 2 counter balance shafts and fitted an oil pump from the first gen and I can confirm there is no vibration or misfiring when this is done properly:thumbsup:

Damn Madmagna, you must be damn good at your job, I keep reading all these great things about your work. Roughly how much did that cost? It probably requires the engine to be taken out too, yeah?

kempeowen
03-05-2008, 05:31 PM
Damn Madmagna, you must be damn good at your job, I keep reading all these great things about your work. Roughly how much did that cost? It probably requires the engine to be taken out too, yeah?

Couldn't say how much it would cost, Mal did a lot of extra work on top, he rebuilt the engine, new clutch and fitted new half shafts at the same time.
If you go to Mals website and look for "DIY gone wrong" the pictures are my engine.
I previously had the chains done by a mechanic who had tied the adjuster back with a cable tie and forgot to release it, the photos show the damage and you should have heard the noise it made but suprisingly still ran well.

JDART
04-05-2008, 11:27 AM
Cheers for the update, I'll have to check out that site.

magna buff
28-05-2008, 01:47 PM
for big 4 cyl

we are going to fit an elimination kit and a new oil pump

only $29 for the elimination kit

the kit has a chain and a small shaft supplied

We will take some pictures of the job etc

Gemini
28-05-2008, 03:33 PM
Couldn't say how much it would cost, Mal did a lot of extra work on top, he rebuilt the engine, new clutch and fitted new half shafts at the same time.
If you go to Mals website and look for "DIY gone wrong" the pictures are my engine.
I previously had the chains done by a mechanic who had tied the adjuster back with a cable tie and forgot to release it, the photos show the damage and you should have heard the noise it made but suprisingly still ran well.

Makes me wonder what the guys that rebuilt my engine did. I was going to adjust the tensioner, nothing was there to tighten! no lever, no bolt just a hole lol

Madmagna
29-05-2008, 03:57 PM
We found the same thing with Kempowen, no bolt, no guide, in fact no guides at all!!!! Some tool had left the timing chain tensionor in the fully retracted position with a cable tie, the chain bashed around that much it ate the guides, the metal then went and blocked the oil filter, bypassed and sent all this through the engine!

Strangely there was very little rattle, this may have been because there was nothing left for the chain to hit!

magna buff
10-06-2008, 06:00 PM
ok we have removed the timing chains
and found the guides in very good condition
and we are no closer to finding the rattle noise

we found the two chains have stretched


there is a shiny mark on the RHS of the block where the timing chain
may have been hitting the backing surface

also the oil pump guide has wear on the outer edge

what IS the ring in the picture for

it wont fit in the block behind the oil pump
wont press into the block -the hole behind the pump on the TS block
is a lot wider than the ring
and is a bit larger the the diameter of the balance shaft

note the small drive chain for the oil pump

pm sent to Madmagna

Madmagna
10-06-2008, 08:50 PM
The ring is for the top balance shaft hole, it is clearly explained also in the instructions that should have come with the kit.

You need to press it in once the shaft and bearing carrier are removed, do not do this and you will have no oil pressure.

Make sure it goes in square, if it goes in crooked it will jam and then bend and then fall out and render it useless.

magna buff
10-06-2008, 10:28 PM
instructions didnt come with the kit.:rant:

timing chain and eleimination kit with a TP oil pump
with ring fitted once upper balance shaft is removed

notice the shiny line where the
old timing chain was slapping the backing plate

magna buff
11-06-2008, 03:03 PM
2 engine mounts / 2 welsh plugs / 2 steering boots later
leaking rocker cover

looks like tim will have a car again

still no closer to why the chain noise was louder than noisy tappets


the job is going to take longer than expected :redface:

Madmagna
11-06-2008, 05:59 PM
Few comments.

I really hope you did not use any sealant on that ring, it should be a clean press fit in, no sealant!

Secondly, I also hope you pushed it in flush as well?

The shiny mark is not from the chain at all, it is where the chain guide is in contact with the block and the block does not stain from the oil. I also hope that you have put back the chain guide on that side for the timing chain also? :)

BiG 4 CyL
11-06-2008, 06:19 PM
Few comments.

I really hope you did not use any sealant on that ring, it should be a clean press fit in, no sealant!

Secondly, I also hope you pushed it in flush as well?

The shiny mark is not from the chain at all, it is where the chain guide is in contact with the block and the block does not stain from the oil. I also hope that you have put back the chain guide on that side for the timing chain also? :)

no sealant used, casting wouldnt allow it to go in flush, and all guides are in :D

Madmagna
11-06-2008, 08:14 PM
That is very strange, I have done many of these and in every case the ring has gone in nice and flush as it is designed to do.

Just hope it is in far enough and does not push itself out, have seen this happen once

BiG 4 CyL
12-06-2008, 09:37 PM
That is very strange, I have done many of these and in every case the ring has gone in nice and flush as it is designed to do.

Just hope it is in far enough and does not push itself out, have seen this happen once
sorry, you were right
we double checked before we put the engine back in and we actually could make it sit flush which was a relief.
she's running beautifully, no vibrations, very smooth and quiet. small ignition problem but otherwise perfect :D

magna buff
13-06-2008, 07:43 AM
:D heres a strange one from 3rd to 4th the motor changes its tone and is sluggish
as if the motor is labouring at about 4000 rpm

the dissy advance is working - timed at 13-15 deg @800rpm

drop back to 3rd and its all good

on flat roads the car goes well in all gears

any ideas ?

Madmagna
13-06-2008, 10:12 AM
Timed at 13 - 15 degrees, holy crap that is retarded if that is the timing at 4 grand
Only set the timing when you have the ECU in tuning mode for starters. this will equate to approximately 13deg at idle with ecu in normal run mode.

Check your timing chain and the marks, sounds like you may be a tooth retarded perhaps

magna buff
13-06-2008, 05:43 PM
:redface: dissy out a tooth

drives better now

I was a sceptic about doing this modification

now I see the benefits and how easy it is to fit

only bad thing it the motor has to come out to remove the shafts

Madmagna
13-06-2008, 07:10 PM
??? so if the dizzy was out a tooth how did you get the timing correct, this would be mechanically impossible

BiG 4 CyL
15-06-2008, 09:04 PM
??? so if the dizzy was out a tooth how did you get the timing correct, this would be mechanically impossible

we pulled it out and put it back set on the right tooth and went from there. still a minor adjustment needed but shes running well