Hi all i will be ordering a new set of cams over the next few weeks
and have a quick question:

will i need an ECU to run a stage 2 cam or will my stock ECU be able to handle it and do i need different valves.

or would i be best off getting stage 1 cams
Thanks in advance
Cheers Brad

Hi all i will be ordering a new set of cams over the next few weeks
and have a quick question:

will i need an ECU to run a stage 2 cam or will my stock ECU be able to handle it and do i need different valves.

or would i be best off getting stage 1 cams
Thanks in advance
Cheers Brad

from what ive read the stock ecu "might do it" but chances are that it will run crappy, and you wont need new valves, just uprated springs.

would a FPR work in favor of getting stage 2

would a FPR work in favor of getting stage 2

doubt it, the FPR will dial down the rail pressure and keep it constant, also being able to adjust the pressure itself, and being a bigger cam you are naturally allowing more air into and out of the motor, and these might go out of the factory ecu's bounds of tuning. Im not 100% but ive from what ive read/seen all the guys running stage 2+ have piggybacks.

I dont think it would be wise with an auto. euroaccord i think it was did it with stage twos in a manual and it ran like a dog under 3000rpm. had it tuned and made it better but still a loss down low. Cant imagine it being any good for an auto. He ended up getting a piggyback. You would be better off going stage one if not getting an ecu to help out. Stage twos only require valve springs not valves. Would need it if going stage twos tho. Also extra $$$$ to pull heads of and fit springs. PM Lenda..he is the latest going down this route. A fuel pressure reg with little mods is only probably going to make your exhaust black. When modding n/a you need to pull fuel out to get a better tune and performance...hence why piggybacks are used. It may help with the flat spot if ya have one.

ill let you know what its like in a months time, mine is being done on the 23rd of june... im getting new cam gears, and valve springs and porting the combustion chamber to make things a little smoother. hopefully im going to prove everyone wrong about it being rough down low :):):)

mike

ill let you know what its like in a months time, mine is being done on the 23rd of june... im getting new cam gears, and valve springs and porting the combustion chamber to make things a little smoother. hopefully im going to prove everyone wrong about it being rough down low :):):)

mike

talking to Mr Bell recently he reckons that the heads flow well standard, but some milling of the valve seats is all that is required.

Higher lift cams will lean out the mixture which also will burn hotter.

Not a great idea just spend the extra money now to look after your engine and gain the extra watts (tune it). Upping the pressure won't add enough fuel when it's need so it'll just run rich at low RPM or something (im very tired, cant think).

RPW's stage 2 are pretty conservative defs a **** grind if they're losing power down low.

I don't know about springs they'll be fine probably but could cost you alot if they go.

you dont have to get an aftermarket ecu just get the factory ecu remapped if it needs tweaking.

you dont have to get an aftermarket ecu just get the factory ecu remapped if it needs tweaking.


how do you do that

how do you do that

hmmmm good question... me wanna know too

im pretty positive that you cannot as the misti factory Ecu's cant be changed in anyway.

ok so if i run bigger injector IE 275cc and a FPR will i be able to get away with stage two cams

ok so if i run bigger injector IE 275cc and a FPR will i be able to get away with stage two cams

no.

Injectors are set on a duty cycle will be completely different between the 2. Yes it'll have more fuel but its dodgey as. Like could cost you money styles dodgey and your fuel economy would go to ****.

Also i believe the magna injectors aren't far off 275cc anyway.

Stop being a tight**** and get a tune its as good as getting cams too and makes things easier down the track.

i like being a tight **** makes Gas_Hed happy JJ but have decided on stage ones for now anyway

by the way wasn't trying to sound condescending... needed to throw a :cool: in or something.

by the way wasn't trying to sound condesending... needed to throw a :cool: in or something.


Tis all good mate just trying to do something different lol

ill let you know what its like in a months time, mine is being done on the 23rd of june... im getting new cam gears, and valve springs and porting the combustion chamber to make things a little smoother. hopefully im going to prove everyone wrong about it being rough down low :):):)

mike


It's not just the roughness down low, but also the power losing factor. Stage two cams are made for mid and top end gain with some loss at low end.

Camshafts simply move the efficiency band of an engine in a given direction. The exception of sorts is variable cam phasing. To get efficiency up high and generate numbers worthy of a pub discussion you will sacrifice low end. With the stage 2 numbers, expect a power come-on around 3300-3500 and pulling hard to redline. The low end strength you're enjoying now will feel more like your old stocko manifold is back on but the fuel economy will be like driving without the air flow meter plugged in.

Also i believe the magna injectors aren't far off 275cc anyway.


3.0L injectors are 210cc
3.5L injectors are 275cc

So you are correct that Magna injectors arent far off 275cc indeed.

Some things to consider:

* It is highly unlikely you will get away with "stage2" cams without retuning. Yes you can get away with it with "stage1" cams, but it really defeats the purpose, as much of the gains will be had post-tune.

* With "stage2" cams you WILL lose driveability if you don't increase CR. However with an appropriate CR increase (say to 10-11:1), it will probably drive about the same as stock down low.

* "Stage2" cams need headwork, or you are basically wasting your time/money.

* Unless there have been new developments, no one so far has been able to remap the factory ECU (besides those with inside links to MMAL etc).

Mate the best advice you take onboard is if you can't afford/plan to do things properly, don't do it, it will end in tears.

For a budget mild build stick to RPW "stage1" or similar. As you don't need headwork and valvesprings, fitting the stage1's is a much cheaper heads-stay-on proposition. You will want adjustable cam gears and a piggyback to tune.

Or if you if you wanto do a more extensive build, I recall making a faily detailed post in a recent thread of yours. Basically you're looking at:

-Cams (not sure about specs for the 3L motor)
-Heads flowed to suit the cam profile you are using
-Valvesprings
-Adjustable cam gears
-Piggyback or full replacement ECU
-Higher CR pistons

Depending on how "big" the cam and how hard you'lll be revving it, you may wanto have the rods shotpeened and fitted with ARP rod bolts for peace of mind.

But honestly, you are wasting your time with a slushbox auto. If you want some performance, doing a manual conversion or buying a manual car is the 1st move you should be doing IMO.

Also you might find you'd be better off getting a 3.5L motor to work with. But I havn't seen any serious NA builds with the 3L so I'm not sure what sort of results are achievable.

How about cams for a second gen 3L auto motor? I was thinking something that was a bit better but not massive improvments.

How about cams for a second gen 3L auto motor? I was thinking something that was a bit better but not massive improvments.

not really enough market for those i would say, as a set of cams are worth around 1k from tighe, which is about half the market value of a 2nd gen

not really enough market for those i would say, as a set of cams are worth around 1k from tighe, which is about half the market value of a 2nd gen


:bowrofl: :bowrofl:

Oh crap i just remembered, i got a 2nd gen....:doubt:

If you are staying with the auto as I did, stick with stage one cams and gears, but also think about an RPW or EZYboy plenum. I got an RPW plenum and it did help the entire rev range. But you will def need piggyback. Expect about a 8-10h.patw gain from the cams and another 10 after a tune, and another 8 with all that and a plenum.

If you are staying with the auto as I did, stick with stage one cams and gears, but also think about an RPW or EZYboy plenum. I got an RPW plenum and it did help the entire rev range. But you will def need piggyback. Expect about a 8-10h.patw gain from the cams and another 10 after a tune, and another 8 with all that and a plenum.

He has ezboys first prototype manifold atm and he will be getting the revised one shortly for the next dyno run

He has ezboys first prototype manifold atm and he will be getting the revised one shortly for the next dyno run

oh yeah! forgot about that even after reading his current mods. I would not even consider doing cams as well then without a piggyback, also it will make more of the existing mods.

oh yeah! forgot about that even after reading his current mods. I would not even consider doing cams as well then without a piggyback, also it will make more of the existing mods.

yeah the dyno operator at blacktrack said that as well

If you are staying with the auto as I did, stick with stage one cams and gears, but also think about an RPW or EZYboy plenum. I got an RPW plenum and it did help the entire rev range. But you will def need piggyback. Expect about a 8-10h.patw gain from the cams and another 10 after a tune, and another 8 with all that and a plenum.

are you serious? only 20hp from 2k worth of cams and ecu?

are you serious? only 20hp from 2k worth of cams and ecu?

yeah 20hp sounds about right

yeah 20hp sounds about right

or spend 4k and do them right and gain like 150... (no really)

yer soz i forgot about this thread. call steve knight racing here in sa he remappes factory ecu. and he has mmal spys:shifty:

yeah 20hp sounds about right

dam thst sucks!! i was going to slip some ralliart cams into my TH but i dont think ill bother now, there probably only good for 10hp

are you serious? only 20hp from 2k worth of cams and ecu?

I can tell you i went from 154h.p to 175hpatw in doing so. Manuals would respond better.


or spend 4k and do them right and gain like 150... (no really)

It all comes down to budget and drivabilty, and time off road as well. You can do some headwork to smooth it out a bit. Unfortunately the amount of people that have opened up the engine for some serious work have either had their cars off the road a long time doing the engine up, or have had issues post installation. I would not call my mods serious, having said that the drivabilty is awsome, and (touch wood) i have not had a single mechanical issue with my car.

If you are staying n/a I'd put the money into higher CR pistons before worrying about aggressive cams.

Pistons? LMFAO!! You cant be serious... $$$... gotta pull the block apart... waste of time.

Seriously, I'd save your moneys, and either drop in a 3.5L or buy a 6G72 DOHC MIVEC and drop that in along with the auto...to save money

Best bang for buck mods IMHO... Especially when your base is a 6G72 SOHC Auto...

Simply put... you put in cams, or pistons (in which you will need a piggy back as well), you might a well get a 3.5L or MIVEC motor... you will get alot more power for your money...

could'nt you just shave the heads to increase the CR instead of installing new piston's?

I tend to agree with tbb,

Aggresive cams and 9.0:1 comp ratio just dont mix well,the bigger the cam you go,the more overlap and the more cylinder presssure that will be bled off in the lower rpm till the cam "comes on",so off cam,the engine will be sluggish until decent rpm is reached,meaning a not very tractable engine if cam selection is off or too big,idealy you should have 9.8:1 as a starting point IMO with the fuels available today for a n/a setup,or tailor the lobe sepeation to suit by lowering or increasing overlap

In the old days,all engine mods started with the "triple C tart up",that being cams, carby and compression,not much has changed in reality.just swap carbs with ECU and your on your way!

Oh,you can ceratinly shave heads to increase CR,but its not the preffered method,flat top pistons and zero deck heights are more common ways,as you can only deck heads so far without running into other problems

Steve

Guys,

He is only going to run stage one cams... they are only a little bit bigger then ralliart cams. (more duration). IMHO, cams = waste of money IF you dont do head work, etc. Even then your looking at $2,500~$3,000... and this is on a 3L!!

Either way you go about it, to get max gains you WILL need a ECU... so slap another $1000 onto the heads...

Waste of time and $$$

Again, you guys are suggesting increasing compression. Yes, that would get you more torque, BUT, you wouldn't make that much power over the cams plus head work...

you would pay about $1,500 ~ $2,000 to install some 10:1 CR cast pistons, then you will need an ECU on top of that... so your looking at around $3,000. Even then, you would only be making around 15~20hp at the wheels more.. Pathetic if you ask me.

IMO, I think the best bang for buck, is a 3.5L (+15kw & +40nm @ fly) or a 3L MIVEC (+58kw & +30nm @ fly)...

A set of cams or pistons WILL NOT get you those sorts of gains (on a SOHC 3L anyways).

Save your pennies and get a new donk... $4,000 for a conversion to the MIVEC, keeping the supplied auto (4 speed tiptronic), or spend $4,000 on a 3.5L + Manual.

Thats the direction I would take.

Regards,
Alex

could'nt you just shave the heads to increase the CR instead of installing new piston's?

Definatly... I wouldent call stage one RPW cams agressive... head work + stage ones would be fine...

If he goes stage one cams, all he is going to do is get a bit more air into the engine. Also, if you take 20 thou of the valve and 20 thou of the valve seat(which is pretty common when doina head service) you will gain 40 thou lift anyway wont you?

You'll be right, just get one of those intake supercharger thingys and the 20hp chip.SMOKIN:D

wow so many armchair expersts eh.... O.P is asking about cams....not engine swaps and if I had the money this is what YOU should do. I think what the O.P needs to do is firstly find someone who is willing to do the work, then get a price from them. Give them a couple of quote options and go from there. Easy enough to say how much something is going to cost when your not paying for it. Until you are ready to pay you wont know how much your'e in for for real. Yeah i paid around $2.5k for cams cam gears and emanage installed and gaind 15kwatw. Pretty good for an auto. Real figures realistic $$ value real experiences.

wow so many armchair expersts eh.... O.P is asking about cams....not engine swaps and if I had the money this is what YOU should do. I think what the O.P needs to do is firstly find someone who is willing to do the work, then get a price from them. Give them a couple of quote options and go from there. Easy enough to say how much something is going to cost when your not paying for it. Until you are ready to pay you wont know how much your'e in for for real. Yeah i paid around $2.5k for cams cam gears and emanage installed and gaind 15kwatw . Pretty good for an auto. Real figures realistic $$ value real experiences.
:bowrofl:

wow so many armchair expersts eh.... O.P is asking about cams....not engine swaps and if I had the money this is what YOU should do. I think what the O.P needs to do is firstly find someone who is willing to do the work, then get a price from them. Give them a couple of quote options and go from there. Easy enough to say how much something is going to cost when your not paying for it. Until you are ready to pay you wont know how much your'e in for for real. Yeah i paid around $2.5k for cams cam gears and emanage installed and gaind 15kwatw. Pretty good for an auto. Real figures realistic $$ value real experiences.


since i know the poster in RL he has gotten many a quote ranging from 300 right through to 1k to get the heads serviced, and the seats done etc, also he originally wanted to know what camshaft would be better suited to his application.

since i know the poster in RL he has gotten many a quote ranging from 300 right through to 1k to get the heads serviced, and the seats done etc, also he originally wanted to know what camshaft would be better suited to his application.

I got a quote of $1200 for the following work to be done on my ralliart heads;

Port
Polish
Shaved
Port Matched to Extractors and Inlet
Install CamsI also had already purchased a Haltech Interceptor. I do have an idea of what it was going to cost.

In regards to the camshafts, Brad, If you are going to go and get a piggy back, make sure you get as much done to the heads as you can... you dont want to be going back in there mate. Unfortunatly, you have an Auto, so I think stage one RPW camshafts should be your limit...

As i have stated in previous threads, porting is not neccessary as the ports on our heads are way too big anyway, you will be wasting your money. The power is to be made in the combustion chambers. There is a fair bit of material surrounding the inlet valves that when removed will give an increase in flow into the combution chamber. The only other thing that could be improved is the size of the inlet valves, they are a bit too small.
So in short, leave the port size alone, yeah, smooth it out, but doent go making it bigger.

:bowrofl:
what so funny????????????????????????????????


I got a quote of $1200 for the following work to be done on my ralliart heads;

Port
Polish
Shaved
Port Matched to Extractors and Inlet
Install CamsI also had already purchased a Haltech Interceptor. I do have an idea of what it was going to cost.

In regards to the camshafts, Brad, If you are going to go and get a piggy back, make sure you get as much done to the heads as you can... you dont want to be going back in there mate. Unfortunatly, you have an Auto, so I think stage one RPW camshafts should be your limit...

the price included the parts as well, so add your little quote to that, i think someone already mentioned the $4K mark. And is that just installing the original cams cos i dont see that money covering dialing in cam gears? op asked about the requirement of a piggyback with stage 2 cams or just go stage ones. Like I previously mentioned it would be best with either application, but safer with ones in an auto.

the price included the parts as well, so add your little quote to that, i think someone already mentioned the $4K mark. And is that just installing the original cams cos i dont see that money covering dialing in cam gears? op asked about the requirement of a piggyback with stage 2 cams or just go stage ones. Like I previously mentioned it would be best with either application, but safer with ones in an auto.

Thats right. I did mention it would cost around $4,000 to get it done properly. No, that was installing aftermarket camshafts. And I do not see the point in dialing in camshafts, because its a damn SOHC. To many issues with adjustable cam gears. Stay with standard gears, and get the cams ground to suit. Then you dont have to waste time and money. Look at all the issues EGO has had due to his adjustable cam gear failing...

Also, Yes you do have an auto, but also you have a 3.5L, which with the extra .5L is easyer to get more power/torque out of with basic modifications.

Brad on the other hand has an Auto, 3L. He is disadvantaged already, and I dont think he will see the torque or power you are seeing. Besides, Looking at your mod list, the Emanage is the thing that unlocked most of your power anyways...

Brad, Yes a piggy back would be required with stage two cams, as would head work. This is due to the fact, that you would require a bit more compression to run those cams effeciently. Stage ones should be fine (and easy) in your car. And yes, they will drop straight in, on stock heads and ECU.

Yes, im sorry for wandering off topic before, but I guess i was trying to offer more options for the money, especially if he is chasing more power.

Regards,
Alex

Thats right. I did mention it would cost around $4,000 to get it done properly. No, that was installing aftermarket camshafts. And I do not see the point in dialing in camshafts, because its a damn SOHC. To many issues with adjustable cam gears. Stay with standard gears, and get the cams ground to suit. Then you dont have to waste time and money. Look at all the issues EGO has had due to his adjustable cam gear failing...

Also, Yes you do have an auto, but also you have a 3.5L, which with the extra .5L is easyer to get more power/torque out of with basic modifications.

Brad on the other hand has an Auto, 3L. He is disadvantaged already, and I dont think he will see the torque or power you are seeing. Besides, Looking at your mod list, the Emanage is the thing that unlocked most of your power anyways...

Brad, Yes a piggy back would be required with stage two cams, as would head work. This is due to the fact, that you would require a bit more compression to run those cams effeciently. Stage ones should be fine (and easy) in your car. And yes, they will drop straight in, on stock heads and ECU.

Yes, im sorry for wandering off topic before, but I guess i was trying to offer more options for the money, especially if he is chasing more power.

Regards,
Alex

Dialing in the camshafts would probably be handy cos like you said he has a
3Litre auto. To get it moving the cams gears could be advanced to move the torque curve to the lower end. It seems either engine has problems gettting moving cos of the autos, these would assist faster takeoff.
*Edit* BTW Ego's cam problems if i remember right were due to bad grind, and the thought that cam gears would give more power. They just change where the top power/torque output is.

Dialing in the camshafts would probably be handy cos like you said he has a
3Litre auto. To get it moving the cams gears could be advanced to move the torque curve to the lower end. It seems either engine has problems gettting moving cos of the autos, these would assist faster takeoff.

But what are you advancing... think about it. Your not advancing ignition timing, which would result in better power...

Its not a DOHC motor. You can not create more valve overlap.. you can only move the inlet and exhaust valve timing equally one way or the other.. so basically, its just something else they try to get money out of you for...

You will NOT get more power by dialing in a SOHC motor. You are not even adjusting the powerband...



*Edit* BTW Ego's cam problems if i remember right were due to bad grind, and the thought that cam gears would give more power. They just change where the top power/torque output is.


No, he was having issues with the cam gear on his front bank, it kept on getting loose, and 'slipping'...

As far as the cam gear issue.. The only way you can change the powerband, is by adjusting the valve overlap... and as Ive already said... you cant do that on a single cam...

But what are you advancing... think about it. Your not advancing ignition timing, which would result in better power...

Its not a DOHC motor. You can not create more valve overlap.. you can only move the inlet and exhaust valve timing equally one way or the other.. so basically, its just something else they try to get money out of you for...

You will NOT get more power by dialing in a SOHC motor. You are not even adjusting the powerband...

Advancing cam timing of course. I did not mention anything about getting more power from cam gears. You are just able to set where you get your power in the rev range.this is from a random googled page regarding cam gears on a SOHC:

Megan Racing Adjustable Cam Gears are CNC-machined from AL7075-T6 billet aluminum. The 6-bolt design eliminates any chance of slippage while the hard-anodized finish prevents premature wear. They allow fine adjustments to cam timing with simple hand tools so you can maximize engine performance anywhere whether you’re in the pits or in your own garage.

It’s a well known fact that camshaft timing plays a vital role in performance tuning. By changing the cam timing (retard, advance/overlap), you tune the overall drivability and performance aspect of the car. Even stock engines can benefit by dialing-in cam timing/overlap.

Autocross enthusiasts rely on low to mid-range power for tight turns, whereas drag racers need all the power at the top end. Which is the same as deciding whether you will mostly be driving in the city or on the highway? In either case, Megan Racing adjustable cam gears will optimize the peak power curve so that maximum performance is adjusted to your style of driving.

Note: For SOHC applications advancing your cam timing will improve bottom-end power while retarding the camshaft timing will improve top-end power. DOHC applications can be adjusted individually and different combinations should be attempted with the help of a chassis dyno.
- CNC-Machined AL7075-T6 billet aluminum.
- Adjustable 6-bolt design.
- Performance gain
- Available in Blue, Red and Hyper Gold
- Price is for 1 cam gear only.
- Warranty included.

The only other thing that could be improved is the size of the inlet valves, they are a bit too small.


I'm not sure I agree here. JasonsVRX's rather extreme build made 302flywheel kw NA without upsizing the valves. Seems a bit of a waste of money to do so.

I use to have some good precise info on exactly what should be done with our heads, I wish I still had it :(

From memory the port opening only needs to enlarged midly (depending on what cams you are building around), most of the gains were in raising the "roof" of the ports.

Surely you still dial in camshafts just like we did in the early days with V8`s etc to check camshaft centrelines against the supplied specs sheet etc to make sure the camshaft was ground correctly from the factory????????,also advancing and retarding cam timing will shift the powerband in one direction or the other in my experience,Advance for more bottom end and retard for more top end. It usually takes about a 4 degree change for a noticeable diifference

Steve

Dial them in, or send them back if they can't grind them correctly. It's the 21st Century for ****s sake. Send you cams to Wade and get them reground properly. The *other* hacks can't seem to grind anything correctly lately. Hang-on, according to the speedway fraternity they never could.

I dont see the point in buying a set of cams and you have to adjust them...If you cant get a camshaft to suit your application, and you have to 'dial them in' to get what you need, why bother...?

Whats wrong with stage one cams on standard cam gears?

Why waste $$$ on cam gears & fitting/tuning of said cam gears for minimal gains. There is nothing wrong with standard cam gears...

Adj. Cams = Waste of $$ on SOHC IMHO

I dont see the point in buying a set of cams and you have to adjust them...If you cant get a camshaft to suit your application, and you have to 'dial them in' to get what you need, why bother...?

Whats wrong with stage one cams on standard cam gears?

Why waste $$$ on cam gears & fitting/tuning of said cam gears for minimal gains. There is nothing wrong with standard cam gears...

Adj. Cams = Waste of $$ on SOHC IMHO

To each to their own I guess mate. But maybe you could not see the fact that I have done this mod and you haven't. I DO have the experience with stage one cams, and this is what is being talked about. Not a custom grind. Fine if he wants to go that way but stick to topic. Try google for cam gears on SOHC. So many people would disagree with you. The whole point of cam gears can also be to ensure your grind is correct. And you ask whats wrong with the stage ones...nothing, but there more options with them. I have previously mentioned that you can adjust the cam timing to make the most out of an auto.

I'm not sure I agree here. JasonsVRX's rather extreme build made 302flywheel kw NA without upsizing the valves. Seems a bit of a waste of money to do so.

I use to have some good precise info on exactly what should be done with our heads, I wish I still had it :(

From memory the port opening only needs to enlarged midly (depending on what cams you are building around), most of the gains were in raising the "roof" of the ports.

Correct. The standard valve sizes are good enough for over 450hp on a NA 3.5L.

If the engine was going to have forced induction then fitting larger exhaust valves would be a good idea, so as to assist in getting the extra burnt gases out easier.