Belts were replaced yesterday!! So the new belty is 17km's old. I was doing 100kmh when it went - barely got off the road OK.

One question; TF 3.0 engine. Mechanic says he'll pays for everything if it's something that they did wrong. But, my question is - is it worth it? Broken timing belt would have screwed the motor wouldn't it?

So; should I drop a reconditioned 3.5 motor in there? And will the existing gearbox fit that motor?

Going to get a rental for the next few days, will come back with more detail shortly.

Regards, Tony

I'm probably wrong, but i heard it depends on exactly where the pistons are at the time of the break as to if your engine is screwed or not. Regardless, get the mechanic to fix it and make sure no further damage was done. you could be lucky and it will be all sweet

You may of been lucky, and no damage happened, but, I think the odds of that are very very low.

You will almost be certainly in need to replace the valve springs, the valves are also very likely to be damaged. Piston damage may, of may not of occured, its very hard to tell unless you pull the heads off. You may of been lucky, and incurred only valve damage. Considerin you can get a set of good condition second-hand heads for under $300, it may not be as bad as you think.

That said, you may of done damage as far down as the rods

I've seen 3.5L's go for 750$ as another option.

also remember, if it wasnt the mechanics fault, it would have been a fault with the new belt itself, but the mechanic will have to prove this. either way, YOU shouldnt have to pay a cent.

+1 for 3.5L engine.

I'm probably wrong, but i heard it depends on exactly where the pistons are at the time of the break as to if your engine is screwed or not. Regardless, get the mechanic to fix it and make sure no further damage was done. you could be lucky and it will be all sweet


Pistons did not stop moving when belt broke, but valves did.

Pistons did not stop moving when belt broke, but valves did.

told ya i was probably wrong lol

Guess your not going to be driving down to get the console fixed up now aye!

Thats terrible luck mate, in the past month or so you seem to have had nothing but issue after issue. At least this wasn't your fault, if your mechanics kind you might be able to just pay the difference to put a 3.5 in, but if they want you to pay it full just go the 3L again, they're a good engine.

This is my first mechanical issue!! Have had issues in the last month, maybe I shouldn't have swapped the stereo...

Went and picked up a Lancer as a rental (2007 model - meh, not overly impressed) and back to the mechanic to grab kids car seats.

Interesting - the timing belt is intact. My neighbour who dropped me at Budget reckons harmonic balancer. His Commodore did the same thing a few years back with no damage to the engine.

Mechanics say if it's their fault then zero cost to me. And it has to be their fault. My neighbour is really unhappy - he wanted to go bash them! "That car is 100% perfect mechanically, they pay to fix it 100%".

Regards, Tony

Really bummed... She was in brilliant condition. Mechanic even said that yesterday - "valves are really clean, she's been looked after well". And now this...

I've had a quick poke around on Ebay - there are OK looking engines at good prices (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mitsubishi-Magna-TH-TJ-engines-04-2000-01-2004_W0QQitemZ130229965283QQihZ003QQcategoryZ33612 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

If it will marry to the gearbox OK, then I'm interested. BUT - they will be paying, I'm happy to pay a little bit but if they've stuffed the engine by something they did, then they're buying.

Funny thing - at 100kmh, my 10 year old Magna has less road noise than the 2007 Lancer I've rented.

Regards, Tony

Ha, not today. What makes it worse is the 21st (as you offered) is now completely free for me. Maybe we're still on.


Guess your not going to be driving down to get the console fixed up now aye!

yeh ive been driving my mums 2007 lancer around while mine is getting the front end fixed, and its so crappy to drive after driving my TL for a year. went to overtake a car and it took so much longer to get the speed. gear changes aren't as smooth (auto), I don't really think it has any features that are better then my car, except the front end is fixed. lol

gear changes aren't as smooth (auto),

You mean it's got more than 1 gear??? lol The seats are horrible - far too solid. My back is killing me and I just drove it 7kms.

At least one good thing has come out - the wife is now willing to discuss a second car.

Regards, Tony

If its dropped the timming belt on the 3.0 you might be safe. I think these are a non interference motor so you might be ok in regards to pistons hitting valves. Someone will correct me if im wrong. If its a 3.5 and the belt has come off well time for a rebuild.
Hope it works out for you.

Regards

How could it be the Harmonic balancer?,its only there to stop vibration and to drive engine belts,even if the keyway broke,the engine would still run,just bloody horribly and roughly i spose as it sits on the end of the crank shaft!,but all the other gear wouldnt spin ie alt,water pump,power steer etc,thats about it

I dare say it would be a timing component related and not neccessarily the belt,if everything was checked and you only asked to do the belt,you might not have much luck with getting them to pay as the new belt might have showed up other worn components that a mechaic couldnt possibly know,as he doesnt have a crystal ball,but why not see if the will chip in!

Steve

Yeah, she won't start. When you try to turn her over, she just goes clunk, clunk, clunk. Will find out Monday.

Ha, not today. What makes it worse is the 21st (as you offered) is now completely free for me. Maybe we're still on.
That should be ok if that wreckers is open on weekends, I'll find out later this week, keep forgetting to call. If I'm down in the area I'll come by your place and fix the dash up where it sits. Best of luck getting the engine sorted though.

That should be ok if that wreckers is open on weekends

He's definitely not open on the weekend. AND, not "open" to the public either. You ring and ask for the part then, if he has it, you can order from him and arrange collection. You can't just rock up and ask for something (I know - tried it a few weeks back!).

Regards, Tony

OK folks, just working through my options. One I need an answer on is:

If I need to replace the motor because it's something not caused by this service that's fatal, can I match a 3.5L engine ex a TH with my existing gearbox installed onto a 3.0L TF engine? I think the answer is yes?

Hoping I won't need this option :pray:


Regards, Tony

Funny thing - at 100kmh, my 10 year old Magna has less road noise than the 2007 Lancer I've rented.

I noticed the noise level in a brand new Falcon G6 I test drove today was no quieter than my $7.5k 2000 Verada, gotta love these cars.

Always appreciate pure guesswork

For starters, it IS something they did, timing belts do not just break. Have never seen a new belt break in 20 years. I would say he has done the common mistake and not set up the tensionor properly as few people have the correct tool to do this.

YES they are all interferance engines, you will have several beng valves, on the third gen motors they have very thin valve stems and in general do not do any piston damage that will cause any real issues.

Yes, the 3.5 will bolt in, you will however need to match the engine management as well.

Always appreciate pure guesswork

For starters, it IS something they did, timing belts do not just break. Have never seen a new belt break in 20 years. I would say he has done the common mistake and not set up the tensionor properly as few people have the correct tool to do this.

Got a look this arvo - the belt is definitely intact and tight. And guesswork - yep! ;) Won't know for real until Monday.


YES they are all interferance engines, you will have several beng valves, on the third gen motors they have very thin valve stems and in general do not do any piston damage that will cause any real issues.

So the implication is it's not that bad. Replace the valves? Should I insist that every valve is replaced, or believe them saying "only a few are damaged, we'll replace just that few"? I'm thinking all (in my capacity as "No Nothing About Engines Man").


Yes, the 3.5 will bolt in, you will however need to match the engine management as well.

Make sure the new engine has the management system with it? If I read an ad that says

"This is a 3500 complete engine in very good condition." and

"Has all front pullies, fly wheel, inlet manifold, exhaust manifold, throttle body, sump, engine mountings, oil pump, injectors, injector rails"

does this mean engine management system will be there? I would have thought a complete engine would have the engine management with it.

This is my daily driver. no car = no get to work. I must have her going A-OK. And my lesson is - get Mitsubishi to do the belt change, no matter how much it costs...

Thanks for all the comments and feedback people - really appreciate it.


Regards, Tony

My "guess" would be that unless it was spinning at like 4rpm, all the valves would be bent, and heads would need to come off in order for them to be replaced....

And tww I don't agree with you in a sense, Mitsubishi Dealers can be just as incompetent at there work as anyone else...
And unless that ad says "Comes with ECU" the I don't think it is there

Why would all the valves be bent?
Wouldn't only the valves that were open at the moment the cams stopped revolving be bent if they come in contact with the pistons?
If the belt is OK, why did the cams stop?.. How do you know the cams have stopped?

Curious!

inertia of the cams moving at the time? I have NFI.

What makes you think the belt broke ?

EDIT: I mean made

']My "guess" would be that unless it was spinning at like 4rpm, all the valves would be bent, and heads would need to come off in order for them to be replaced....

I was doing 100kmh - about 2500rpm :cry:

One question team; they fitted Barry's fuel rail kit. They have taken the manifold off for that haven't they? Mechanic said he sprayed some cleaner into the cylinders etc, could something have got in at that point and caused the issue?

Went past this morning, she was on the hoist so they must have looked at her yesterday afternoon.

Regards, Tony

Why would all the valves be bent?
Wouldn't only the valves that were open at the moment the cams stopped revolving be bent if they come in contact with the pistons?
If the belt is OK, why did the cams stop?.. How do you know the cams have stopped?

Curious!

I dont know if the 3.0 is any differant but with a 3.5 you will bent only Inlet valves.. Exhaust wont hit.. Dont know how true it is but that what ive been told..:)

Always appreciate pure guesswork

For starters, it IS something they did, timing belts do not just break. Have never seen a new belt break in 20 years. I would say he has done the common mistake and not set up the tensionor properly as few people have the correct tool to do this.

What do you mean tool..?? didnt know there was one.. its a tensioner. its applies tention as needed.. When you put it on you bolt it down and once all is inplace remove the pin holding tensioner back.. done.. what tool do you need..???

']
And tww I don't agree with you in a sense, Mitsubishi Dealers can be just as incompetent at there work as anyone else...
And unless that ad says "Comes with ECU" the I don't think it is there

Yes, my old KR, Knox Mitsubishi did my cam belt as part of the deal when I purchased the car, a few weeks later the main drive belt tensionor came off, when I found it a few hundred metres down the road, refitted it I decided to check everything else, one of the cam bolts was loose!

Ok, lets clear some things up here.

Yes, all the valves are interference, however you should not have bent all valves as the cams would have pretty much stopped almost instantly because of the drag of the rockers and the lobes. Will depend really if the belt broke and came free straight away or if it continued to pull one of the cams as sometimes happens. Remember that at 2500 rpm, things even then are moving fairly quickly.

Tool, try reading almost every manual that is published on these motors and the method for timing belt fitment. Only a tool would fit a belt to one of these with out the correct tensionor tool!

You need to lock off the hydraulic tensionor, torque the main tensinor to a spec (cbf looking it up) and then release the hydraulic tensionor. A feeler gauge should then freely pass through between the pin and tensionor. Some of the gregorys manuals show you how to make this tool as well. This happened to one of the SA members a while back, exact same thing, he asked me if he needed to tension as per the book, I told him yes, offered to loan him my little torque wrench and tool but he did not bother, week later no belt and no valves, when he fixed it the second time he took up my offer for the loan of the tool

Cleaning the inlet passages will not have caused this, it was either too tight or too loose, either way, is not your fault, is the fault of the mechanic or a one in a million faulty belt. If he tries to tell you otherwise, take him to Office of Fair Trading. Lets face it, all he has to look at is a broken belt! If the tensionor let go, it is his fault for using the old one, unless of course he offered you a new one in a kit and you declined. Personally I refuse to fit belts onto old tensionors.
.

Got a look this arvo - the belt is definitely intact and tight. And guesswork - yep! ;) Won't know for real until Monday.



So the implication is it's not that bad. Replace the valves? Should I insist that every valve is replaced, or believe them saying "only a few are damaged, we'll replace just that few"? I'm thinking all (in my capacity as "No Nothing About Engines Man").



Make sure the new engine has the management system with it? If I read an ad that says

"This is a 3500 complete engine in very good condition." and

"Has all front pullies, fly wheel, inlet manifold, exhaust manifold, throttle body, sump, engine mountings, oil pump, injectors, injector rails"

does this mean engine management system will be there? I would have thought a complete engine would have the engine management with it.

This is my daily driver. no car = no get to work. I must have her going A-OK. And my lesson is - get Mitsubishi to do the belt change, no matter how much it costs...

Thanks for all the comments and feedback people - really appreciate it.


Regards, Tony

Double post but is easier lol.....

Mits will not always do better work, they like many, just see cars going out a door and cash coming in. Some Mits mechanics are less compitant than your general servo mechanic as they have never worked on anything with any difficulty.

When I refer to engine management, I am talking ECU etc. Not sure if the wiring harness is the same on the 3 and 3.5 but the mapping etc in the ECU certainly is.

If this is a work car, fix what you have as any conversion will take time.

if he reused an old tensioner, i would say that hes not doing his job properly. Tensioners should always be replaced with new belts. Are they plastic tensioners on the 6G72?

if he reused an old tensioner, i would say that hes not doing his job properly. Tensioners should always be replaced with new belts. Are they plastic tensioners on the 6G72?

No, they are metal, bracket, bearing and runner but as you said, always replace them

well thats good.

I have had experience on some older cars in the UK using plastic tensioners. Nothing but trouble, plastic goes brittle with age and heat. Always replaced with metal substitutes.

All this O.H.C. stuff is new to me, I have always been a pushrod bloke, but I get the impression that broken belts must be few and far between 'cause nobody has any definate or first hand info on the damage or any 'sad story's' to tell. Seems to be only speculation?:think:

All this O.H.C. stuff is new to me, I have always been a pushrod bloke, but I get the impression that broken belts must be few and far between 'cause nobody has any definate or first hand info on the damage or any 'sad story's' to tell. Seems to be only speculation?:think:


The reason no one has any definate answer is that none of us have actually seen the engine and seen what has exactly happened, all you have stated is my belt broke.

Think to a pushrod motor (I have one myself) and you r timing gear strips, how long does it take the cam to stop, does it strip alltogether or does it just lose a few teeth and then continue spinning out of time? Does the driver shut down instantly and throw in the clutch/into neutral if auto or do they roll to the side of the road with the engine windmilling as is in gear?

There are a million possabilities, you have definately bent a few valves if it is broken, you may have bent a lot.

within 6 hours of picking up my TJ Magna, the timing belt split straight down the middle, perhaps 30cm long. It smashed the cam cover and the belt was slapping around in the engine bay. My heart sunk. Luckily i managed to limp back to the garage where i bought it. They replaced the belt by the next day haha

when i did timing belts in the 2 cars i have replaced them on, i never had the tool. Then again, I am awesome. Because the timing belt idler pulley(thats all it is, the tensioner is the little hydraulic cylinder jobby) is on an offset shaft, just rotate the pulley to apply some tension to the belt, tighten, then release the pin from the tensioner.

Also, like others have said, if your belt snapped, then you should only have damaged some valves, not all. Only if the belt still had drive on the camshaft would it have made it an issue.

Chris

OK, have the full story this morning. Took lots of notes, hope I can unjumble them (had visions of thousands of $$$ going through my head so was really distracted).

The issues was caused by the power steering belt. The belt is a 4PK (?) belt. 1 groove on the belt has separated and the belt became a 3PK belt. The 4th PK part wrapped itself around the inside of the harmonic balancer, caused the timing belt to jump and the engine has stopped dead.

Both cam shaft marks are dead correct. But the crank is offset by 7 teeth. I lost compression in all 6 cylinders. At least 8 valves are damaged and they believe all 24 are probably bent. 1 piston has a small (less than 1mm deep) gouge in it.

It's sheer bad luck. If the PS belt had just snapped, then I would have gotten really heavy steering but nothing else and would have been able to limp in.

They have never seen anything like this before...

So - head fixed, all new guides, valves , gaskets etc.

There is good news;

- the engine inside is really clean and appears in excellent condition for one that is 182k's old.

- I get my engine heads reconditioned.

- they will call it a warranty issue and pay 100% of all labour and 2/3rds of the cost of repairing the heads. I should walk away no more than $500 down with an engine is excellent condition and happy trouble free motoring.

Semi quote "You've been a loyal customer for 5 years and get all your servicing done here. Least we can do is look after you at this time".

Their engine rebuild man is on site this afternoon to review and rebuild the heads. I'll get her back Wednesday or Thursday. Rhys - should still be on for repairing my dash this weekend :) .

Will update when the engine man does his thing. We did discuss the point where we say "no, recon'd motor" and will know more later today or tomorrow. But, they think my current motor is too good to throw away.

Regards, Tony

OH MY GOD how unlucky :cry: Cant believe the PS belt caused it. Mental. I guess mechanic would have had to remove it when replacing the timing belt? Possibly damaged it when removing

- they will call it a warranty issue and pay 100% of all labour and 2/3rds of the cost of repairing the heads. I should walk away no more than $500 down with an engine is excellent condition and happy trouble free motoring.

Semi quote "You've been a loyal customer for 5 years and get all your servicing done here. Least we can do is look after you at this time".


that is unheard of.

I would be buying them a carto.

Goodluck with it

Good to hear you will not be out of pocket that much however.....



Semi quote "You've been a loyal customer for 5 years and get all your servicing done here. Least we can do is look after you at this time".


In english, this means we have screwed up but do not want to pay our excess so we will make it look like a hard luck thing and make us look good to you.....

There are 4 reasons the ps belt went
1. They over tightened it
2. They under tightened it
3. They failed to check it correctly when they had it off
4. They did not locate it on the pully correctly and it shredded, has happened many a time before

Either way, is their issue and you should not be out of pocket for a cent.

In respect to having done 2 timing belts and no issues, you are lucky you have not lost one or had a water pump die on you of over tight. As I said, anyone who reads the directions on how to do this will clearly see in the manual where it shows you how to make the tensionor tool and how tight to put it. This is needed for the whole set up to work properly as the hydraulic ram only has so much travel in it.

OK, have the full story this morning. Took lots of notes, hope I can unjumble them (had visions of thousands of $$$ going through my head so was really distracted).

The issues was caused by the power steering belt. The belt is a 4PK (?) belt. 1 groove on the belt has separated and the belt became a 3PK belt. The 4th PK part wrapped itself around the inside of the harmonic balancer, caused the timing belt to jump and the engine has stopped dead.

Both cam shaft marks are dead correct. But the crank is offset by 7 teeth. I lost compression in all 6 cylinders. At least 8 valves are damaged and they believe all 24 are probably bent. 1 piston has a small (less than 1mm deep) gouge in it.

It's sheer bad luck. If the PS belt had just snapped, then I would have gotten really heavy steering but nothing else and would have been able to limp in.

They have never seen anything like this before...



Know how you feel buddy.. same thing happened to mine at MM08.. Power steering belt snapped smashed and took out the other one which then inturn got wedged behind the balancer and smashed the plastic timing covers and then put plastic in my timing belt and through timing out. I have no compression so one would assume its bent valves..:)

Mines been sitting in the garage for 3 months now.. Feel your pain buddy..


So if you belt need replacing the mechanic should of picked that up as the need to remove those belts to do the timing belt.. Mmmm

Mines been sitting in the garage for 3 months now.. Feel your pain buddy..



Not to go off topic, but whats the deal with your car Jase ? In the process of a new rebuild, or something new ?

Not to go off topic, but whats the deal with your car Jase ? In the process of a new rebuild, or something new ?


For now ill do another rebuild.. Just dont have any spare cash at the moment.. was getting ready to start but ha a minor setback..

Maybe Tony and myself can put our cars in together and get a group discount..:)

Haha - maybe we should :D

Just got back from mechanic. I saw the PS belt; it's fairly new which is why they didn't replace it. I think it was replaced at 150k. And it looks like a woolly jersey that someone has got a thread on and started unraveling.

Motor is in pieces, and most is sitting in the boot!!!

The cylinder walls are fine. The pistons each have 2 shiny half moons on the top of them from the valve impacts, but they are nowhere near the edge. The motor rebuild guy said "nothing wrong with them, but the heads need to be rebuilt". Heads will be back early tomorrow and the motor will be running again (all going well) by Tuesday night.

I'm taking the opportunity to do a couple of other things while the motor is apart. Going to replace the water pump, and replace a seal that's got a wqee bit of oil around it. Then a good steam clean.

My total bill will be no more than around $1,500. Not expected, good job the wife and I set up a contingency fund earlier this year. But; I'll have a rebuilt engine that I know the full history of and I should get another 150 - 200k's out of.

Could be worse - if it was a full rebuild due to an break outside the service, I'd be looking at double that easily. Then I would be buying something on eBay...

Regards, Tony

PS - out of interest; I presume I need to run this rebuild in carefully? Like it's a new engine. I'll break out the Haynes manual to read about it later tonight.

yeah keep below 3000rpm and dont labour the engine if possible

Are they re-ringing it or putting in a new cam?,if not,a run in isnt really required IMO as they are the main parts that need "bedding in"

Steve

There are some good articles about runing in, the under 3000 will only lead to varnish building up in your bores and your rings will not bed in correctly.
With motors these days, best is to drive it normally and do not baby it.

There is an article I posted in here ages ago, was backed up with Dyno print outs and done by a large Americal Drag Race engine builder. Hit search, I am sure it will come up somewhere

Was feeling kind, here is a link I created with the page

No this is not my work but I can not find where the link came from so here is one I made up

Here (http://members.optusnet.com.au/xtwagon/runin/break%20in%20secrets.htm)

Yes this is bike based but is the same principle, I use this guide as a general rule and have had some great performing motors both Rotary and Piston motors.

I remember reading that aaages ago. I still remember it clearly. I thought it was very interesting, although a bit controversial. I still dont know if I would follow there advice because EVERYONE else says the complete opposite.

Ollie

Was feeling kind, here is a link I created with the page

No this is not my work but I can not find where the link came from so here is one I made up

Here (http://members.optusnet.com.au/xtwagon/runin/break%20in%20secrets.htm)

Yes this is bike based but is the same principle, I use this guide as a general rule and have had some great performing motors both Rotary and Piston motors.


Thank's for the link. Interesting read, easy to understand and if one have some mechanics/physics knowledge it can see a lot of sense.

OK, Maggie the Magna is back with me.

Off the bill:
================================================
Mits 6772 Cylinder Heads (2)
Clean, dismantle and inspect
Basic reco
New valve guides (24)
Supply/fit inlet valves (12)
Inspect and clean ex valves
New valve stem seals (24)
Machine head, port inlets
Assembly
Supply VRS gasket seat
Supply head bolts
Cylinder head repairs total $1,270
Water pump $200

All labour to remove and replace cylinder heads covered
All extra parts used that are not on the invoice covered
Engine oil and filter to be replaced at 1000km's at no cost
Coolant to be added at 1000km service at no cost
New Power Steering belt at no cost
All work covered under nationwide warranty
================================================

So I've paid $1,470. I can live with that - cheaper than me covering the whole job, cheaper than a new car, and I'm covered if anything else goes wrong. They want her back for 90 minutes first thing Saturday to see that all the seals are in place and there are no leaks. I'll do 1000kms in around 3-4 weeks, then that service is free as well.

I need to treat her a bit carefully for those 1000kms; no drag racing, or overtaking trucks at 120k or anything like that. I'll put a hat on the parcel tray and bowling bag in the back seat and drive like I'm on my way to the RSL.

The guys have been completely up front with me the whole time. I think it probably was their error - they most likely didn't fit the PS belt properly. But, they could have stood there and said "bad luck, that'll cost $4k to fix because we didn't replace that part cause it was only 35,000kms old". And they didn't - they said we'll look after you. And I'll go back there again.

There was a 2000 TJ for sale in the mall as I walked around waiting for them to get back from the test drive. $8,995 ("Only $50 per week!"), 157,000kms on it. I have 26,000km's more and basically a rebuilt engine that I have the full service history on. I've got the better deal.

Even better - my neighbour got home and came to chat. He's a panel beater, so I said "what's easier, fix my front bumper with all it's scratches and dents and insects or get a reco bumper and paint and fit?". He looked and ran his fingers on it and said "I'll sand it back and repaint - won't even need to take it off the car. $120 should cover it. Then we'll get her detailed.". She needs a really good clean, I didn't give them the chance to wipe her down, just wanted her back.


Regards, Tony

PS - one thing the mechanic said "if that belt had broken when you were going onto the Monash at 100kmh, then I don't want to think about what could of happened". Neither do I...

Good to see you got her back but to be honest, if you were doing 100 in od or 60, little difference, the engine stops, you stop and you repair.

I still think that you were badly over charged, far cry from the $500 you were initially told.

Went for a quick checkup this morning. All good, not a sign of any oil leaks anywhere. Should knock off 1000kms in around 3 weeks, then back for a final check, coolant replacement and I should be set.

They also said don't worry about treating her too softly, run her at 100kmh, just don't try and run her at 5000 revs!

Thanks for reading all, needed to pour it out to someone who understood and the wife doesn't quite fit the mould.

Regards, Tony