ok so today i went down to get a power figure ATW on my car so i can follow the progress in upgrades. I got them to do ramp it up as it is and then got them to do 2 runs without my air filter in (sucking straight from the atmosphere). Now my airfilter has been in my car since the day i got it about 1.5 years ago, hasn't been cleaned or replaced. the power figure that came back showed that the total gain i got was 0.8Kwatw. The AFR's didn't change at all and the power curve was identicle apart from a very very small peak right at the top of the rev range.

what does this mean? personally i feel that (as many have said before) if you are planing to open up your inlet by just adding a K&N panel or want to put a pod on then you will only be doing it for induction noise. I know this has been covered many times before with countless threads about how zomgzhectickebab pod filterz!!1!!11 but it terms of power difference i would have to say that my black/brown dirty as **** ryco crapper made 0%difference.

for those that are interested power at the wheels was 127.8Kw atw with the filter in which calculates to around 170HP atw so for you that knew about it my goal is so much closer than i was expecting for those that don't know my plan was to reach 200HPatw on an unopened engine before switching to boost and then going for 200kw atw with an unopened engine. I know this might be a bit optimistic but I'm going to try and if my engine says no then i guess it'll be a good reason to go all out.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9106/scan0004ty6.jpg

oh and Chisholm is the ramprate to your liking?

i see possibly two problems with this setup.

1. the car isn't moving. with a CAI and filter, when the car is moving air is being pushed into the intake, and with a CAI, and bigger filter there will be more gains.

2. when you removed the air filter. what was your setup? where was the air coming from? if you removed the intake from the MAF sensor onwards, air was being sucked from the engine bay and the hot air would of played a negative effect.

note: im not an expert. but I've read billions of posts (no ****! theres enough of them) of intake mods.

to wrap up my essay; in conclusion there is definitely a performance increase over stock intake for both pod and panel filters.

i see possibly two problems with this setup.

1. the car isn't moving. with a CAI and filter, when the car is moving air is being pushed into the intake, and with a CAI, and bigger filter there will be more gains.

2. when you removed the air filter. what was your setup? where was the air coming from? if you removed the intake from the MAF sensor onwards, air was being sucked from the engine bay and the hot air would of played a negative effect.

note: im not an expert. but I've read billions of posts (no ****! theres enough of them) of intake mods.

to wrap up my essay; in conclusion there is definitely a performance increase over stock intake for both pod and panel filters.

isnt that why they put that big fan in front of the car?
to act like the car is actually on the road

exactly right, the fan was pushing fresh air right into the front ot the car and the bonnet was up. As posted originally i removed the filter, nothing more so the font section of the airbox and the snorkle was still in place feeding the fresh air to the rear half of the airbox. There would've been some warm air getting to the inlet but i highly doubt it would make much difference at all.

also when you can explain to me how air is being 'pushed' into the inlet as you said, i will happily agree that they do make a difference.

EDIT: re-reading your post i don't understand what you mean by 'bigget filter' when i had nothing in at all.

I've been saying for some time now the air filter does bugger all in terms of restricting the intake. Also that 0.8kw difference is a bit meaningless, as in my experience you can get a couple of kw variance between runs anyway. IMO removing the filter or replacing it with a high-flow filter is worth a couple of kw at best (and probably more like 0).

Since you ask, a ramp rate 13 for a stockish magna is on the high side, but wouldn't be considered outrageous (from what my tuner has said). It's a bit subjective, some would argue 13 is fine, since that's what "shootout mode" is locked on. But some tuners would use a much lower ramp rate when tuning, and thefore you can argue 13 is too high.

IMO 127wkw is a pretty realistic figure though, maybe even a couple of kw on the low side. Do you have an AFR plot? I'd be curious to see it.

When my magna was NA, it recorded 140wkw with just a full exhaust and Barry's kits. The figure seemed bs high, but the dyno I used is suposed to be realistic - reading, and my AFR seemed amazingly good for stock rune (12.2-12.5:1 at the top end, supposedly stock tune magnas ruch quite rich).

If your AFR is similar, then I think we can conclude the 140wkw was BS.

I personally noticed a very significant difference when I replaced my K&N panel filter with a K&N pod filter. I don't know the science behind it, but it wasn't just a noise difference - the vehicle felt much more powerful and responsive. Adding a Ralliart muffler did the same thing, but not to the same extent.

I might be mistaken and, as I say, I'm not sure about the science, but I feel that the best bang-for-buck mod I've done, power-wise, was the pod filter.

I've been saying for some time now the air filter does bugger all in terms of restricting the intake. Also that 0.8kw difference is a bit meaningless, as in my experience you can get a couple of kw variance between runs anyway. IMO removing the filter or replacing it with a high-flow filter is worth a couple of kw at best (and probably more like 0).

Since you ask, a ramp rate 13 for a stockish magna is on the high side, but wouldn't be considered outrageous (from what my tuner has said). It's a bit subjective, some would argue 13 is fine, since that's what "shootout mode" is locked on. But some tuners would use a much lower ramp rate when tuning, and thefore you can argue 13 is too high.

IMO 127wkw is a pretty realistic figure though, maybe even a couple of kw on the low side. Do you have an AFR plot? I'd be curious to see it.


When my magna was NA, it recorded 140wkw with just a full exhaust and Barry's kits. The figure seemed bs high, but the dyno I used is suposed to be realistic - reading, and my AFR seemed amazingly good for stock rune (12.2-12.5:1 at the top end, supposedly stock tune magnas ruch quite rich).

If your AFR is similar, then I think we can conclude the 140wkw was BS.

I only added that question of the ramprate due to the **** fight that happened between yourself and QMD///801 when his ramprate was at 15 now you're using the same argument with mine being at 13. I don't know what you would consider a 'proper' ramprate but i think that it's pretty average to be around that from the dyno experience I've had. Not trying to start **** just asking the question.

The AFR's were recorded but were not on the printout, They ran pretty much 13.0 up to about 4000rpm dropped to 12.5 by 4500rpm and stayed there until 5500rpm. This will be sorted once i fit my greddy and it's tunable. At the same time i will also be fitting a streetfighter manifold and making some extractors along with a metal cat for the retune and hopefully will see some decent numbers from this setup.

for reference my car is a 2000 TH sports manual with 220'000km on the clock

EDIT: i would also like to say that i posted this up so that next time you argue with someone about CAI setup's you can say that there are at least some numbers to make reference to, not to use as full fighting power but just as a reference.

I don't know much about ramp rates (i guess the higher they are, the higher the power figure will be?), but looking at my last dyno sheet the ramp rate was set at 10km/h. It was a power run as well. Are different ramp rates used for different purposes on a dyno?

I don't know much about ramp rates (i guess the higher they are, the higher the power figure will be?), but looking at my last dyno sheet the ramp rate was set at 10km/h. It was a power run as well. Are different ramp rates used for different purposes on a dyno?

I can't answer your question but if you look at your last dyno sheet down the bottom you will see RR*** that is your ramp rate, you more than likely know this but I don't understand what you mean when you referred to it being set in Km/h.

I don't know much about ramp rates (i guess the higher they are, the higher the power figure will be?), but looking at my last dyno sheet the ramp rate was set at 10km/h. It was a power run as well. Are different ramp rates used for different purposes on a dyno?

Ramp rate (marked as "RR" on the sheet) refers to basically how much load the dyno is placing on the motor. E.g RR of 10 means the dyno is letting the motor rev out at 10kph/sec during the run. So the higher the ramp rate, the less load on the motor.

I'm not gonna pretend to fully understand it, but basically higher RRs give higher readings - if the car isn't sufficiently loaded up during the run. 13 is the standard ramp rate for shootout mode.

However some tuners (like mine) reckon 13 and/or higher RRs don't provide enough load for some cars, and consqeuently give inflated readings. Apparently if you are an expert you can tell from looking at the graph at high resolution whether the RR is appropriate or not (lack of normal small fluctuations means not enough load basically).

There was some debate a while ago over a certain dyno graph that was done with a RR of 15. Apart from the ramp rate, I raised issue with the reading because I've come across inflated readings from that particular workshop before (e.g 160wkw from a bog stick Mazda MPS 3), and it wasn't just a one-off.

It really annoys me when dyno operators give inflated readings, because it perpetuates a cycle of unrealistic expectations and misinformation from customers, and inevitably the guys who do it right suffer because they appear to be getting lower figures.

could it have something to do with the actual air temperature at the time of the dyno? For example, we all know how cars with forced induction struggle on days of high heat and humidity, would the same theory apply to other cars, even if they're N/A.

Maybe the temp on this run was lower than the temp of your first run, therefor creating a gain

just a though

In theory air temp shouldn't matter, as dyno runs are generally done with a temp correction alogrithim to calculate a standardised figure (equivelent to 25 deg C ambient from memory). I believe humidity and air pressure are also factored in.

Although in reality some cars may give a lower output on hot days even with temp correction, especially FI cars with insuficient or even no intercooling (e.g a standard Sprintex setup would probably be retarding ignition timing on a really hot day).

I get the impression that when it comes to NA cars, generally the power correction is pretty accurate, so the weather doesn't matter.

I live in Mt Isa, the temperature today was over 39 degrees (39.1 at the time of the dyno runs) and the dyno is in basically a large shed not a building with concrete etc. vid's are up on youtube if you search 'mitsubishi magna dyno run' and click on the second video it is right to view by now and soon enough the second video should be up.

The temp would have nothing to do with it as the 3 runs prior to this when the filter was in were all within .3kw of each other at the 2 runs without the filter were identical.

lol.. nice ben... its always good to get a starting figure... interesting that removing the filter did not gain much.. as in my past experience it seemed to increase the reading a little..

Its weird how u say each run was the same.. I remember at a hyperzone just before my car went in for boost my 1st run was like 196hp atw, then 198hp,then finally 201.4hp all without the filter... when the weekend before i for 139kw atw with the filter on...

in regards to rr's will rims make a diff to this aswell? obviously if u have a rim that is extremely light weight the load required (rr) will be significantly less than if you have a heavy chrome rim?? correct? i dunno all i do is look at the curve and the figure at the top..

so many essay. Chucking a random question out here. To pod or not to pod?

I've been saying for some time now the air filter does bugger all in terms of restricting the intake. Also that 0.8kw difference is a bit meaningless, as in my experience you can get a couple of kw variance between runs anyway. IMO removing the filter or replacing it with a high-flow filter is worth a couple of kw at best (and probably more like 0).

Since you ask, a ramp rate 13 for a stockish magna is on the high side, but wouldn't be considered outrageous (from what my tuner has said). It's a bit subjective, some would argue 13 is fine, since that's what "shootout mode" is locked on. But some tuners would use a much lower ramp rate when tuning, and thefore you can argue 13 is too high.

IMO 127wkw is a pretty realistic figure though, maybe even a couple of kw on the low side. Do you have an AFR plot? I'd be curious to see it.

When my magna was NA, it recorded 140wkw with just a full exhaust and Barry's kits. The figure seemed bs high, but the dyno I used is suposed to be realistic - reading, and my AFR seemed amazingly good for stock rune (12.2-12.5:1 at the top end, supposedly stock tune magnas ruch quite rich).

If your AFR is similar, then I think we can conclude the 140wkw was BS.

Such good information in this post, and then you ruin it by admitting you have a Barry kit lol

so many essay. Chucking a random question out here. To pod or not to pod?


so many threads about this. Chucking a random answer out here. USE THE SEARCH BUTTON

hey Ben, I am really curious with what you mentioned about your afr's. I dont belive getting an emanage will get much better figures, maybe with some timing changes. Maybe wait to you do a few more mods(were you going FI?)You are very lucky to be having those sort of figures(unless you think they are too lean). Most stock magnas might start at 12-12.5 but die down as far as 10's(QMD801?)You already have is what alot of tuners would set up. I have only seen Chisolm have good afr from the factory like that.

isnt that why they put that big fan in front of the car?
to act like the car is actually on the road

the fan is there for cooling the car and especially the dyno. The Radiator needs that air at high rpm.

I already have the emanage, i got it a few months ago when i started looking for parts for my FI setup. I will still be putting it on along with my manifold, extractors and cat but moreso to play with the timing in the top end of the rev range. Because I'm running a 3inch exhaust and will be making my extractors with 1 3/4 pimaries i will be able to run more agressive timing in the top end due to the extra breathing capacity and the emanage will be able to help with this. I think my AFR's are pretty good considering what the temp was yesterday and they won't be changed apart from making them stick the same the whole way through.

In theory air temp shouldn't matter, as dyno runs are generally done with a temp correction alogrithim to calculate a standardised figure (equivelent to 25 deg C ambient from memory). I believe humidity and air pressure are also factored in.

Although in reality some cars may give a lower output on hot days even with temp correction, especially FI cars with insuficient or even no intercooling (e.g a standard Sprintex setup would probably be retarding ignition timing on a really hot day).

I get the impression that when it comes to NA cars, generally the power correction is pretty accurate, so the weather doesn't matter.
Well here's the info from my last dyno print out. To me it looks like a 10km/h ramp rate. And corrected atmospheric conditions as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/mohit/Verada/veradadynochart04.jpg

I'll be going back to the same dyno in a couple of weeks once the manual tranny is in. Will speak to the dyno dude and try and get a better understanding of ramp rates.

I don't understand why people use dynos to quote power figures?

Dynamometers are used to fix problems or tune motors, not to generate a power output reading which is worth anything!

I don't understand why people use dynos to quote power figures?

Dynamometers are used to fix problems or tune motors, not to generate a power output reading which is worth anything!

IMO dynos when calibrated and used correctly are useful for establishing power readings. Yes there will always be a bit of variance, but when calibrated and used correctly they give a good ballpark figure as a guide.

Although it's common knowledge that on average dynos in the U.S seem to read ~10% higher than over here, in general. Perhaps they'd simply argue our dynos read too low, and their dynos are "right". Nonetheless, they aren't completely useless as power-reading tool, especially if you have other information to go off.

I don't understand why people use dynos to quote power figures?

Dynamometers are used to fix problems or tune motors, not to generate a power output reading which is worth anything!

to give that warm fuzzy feeling after doing a worthwhile mod:D

IMO dynos when calibrated and used correctly are useful for establishing power readings. Yes there will always be a bit of variance, but when calibrated and used correctly they give a good ballpark figure as a guide.

Although it's common knowledge that on average dynos in the U.S seem to read ~10% higher than over here, in general. Perhaps they'd simply argue our dynos read too low, and their dynos are "right". Nonetheless, they aren't completely useless as power-reading tool, especially if you have other information to go off.

Have to disagree completely there mate. Read a thread recently on the EVO forums where a member had his car tuned at a shop and got 240kwatw. Took it back a few weeks later, same dyno, same kind of conditions, same car, same mods and dynod 210kwatw. 30kwatw difference between runs on the same dyno. :nuts: This argument has been done to death. On the same day on the same dyno under the same conditions dyno numbers are comparable as far as about "-" that far. Even things like tyre pressure, stock size rims vs 19's, no air filter etc all make a difference. Dynos are a tool used to tune engines. If you want to compare power outputs, get down to the track and compare quarter mile times and terminal speeds.

so what you are all saying is that engines don't make power?

if not then how is power measured?

i understand they are used as a tuning tool but if there is no such thing as a dyno that can measure power then how is power measured?

Have to disagree completely there mate. Read a thread recently on the EVO forums where a member had his car tuned at a shop and got 240kwatw. Took it back a few weeks later, same dyno, same kind of conditions, same car, same mods and dynod 210kwatw. 30kwatw difference between runs on the same dyno. :nuts: This argument has been done to death. On the same day on the same dyno under the same conditions dyno numbers are comparable as far as about "-" that far. Even things like tyre pressure, stock size rims vs 19's, no air filter etc all make a difference. Dynos are a tool used to tune engines. If you want to compare power outputs, get down to the track and compare quarter mile times and terminal speeds.

Sure, dyno readouts always vary due to a wide range of factors, and sometimes big quite a considerably margin. But generally, the variation is small enough that you can use the numbers as a reasonable guide.

E.g I've seen tonnes of dyno results on here and other forums over the years, and for the same car/motor/mods MOST of the readings will fall within 5-10% of each other. E.g nearly every dyno result for a stock or near-stock manual 3.5L seems to fall between 120-130wkw.

Unless there's something seriously wrong, a stock magna aint gonna read 200wkw, and a heavily modded one aint gonna read 120wkw, the numbers aren't random, they give a reasonable guide (usually).

But I agree for small increments of power, dynos are pretty useless. E.g if you get extractors and get an extra 5wkw on the dyno the next week, it's don't consider that conclusive proof that you've actually gained 5wkw.

my old tj.. 3.5 auto gave out the same power reading 2 years in a row... same dyno dunno about conditions...

to a hp it was the same.... only difference was the year and the car had done like 40,000k's more

I still fail to see the point of this thread, its basically the same crap respun, 0.8kw is <1% difference which could be anything really, its been said over and over, there are too many variables to consider, anything from the dyno itself, the tyre condition/temps, Engine temp, oil pressure and among other things.

I still fail to see the point of this thread, its basically the same crap respun, 0.8kw is <1% difference which could be anything really, its been said over and over, there are too many variables to consider, anything from the dyno itself, the tyre condition/temps, Engine temp, oil pressure and among other things.


And that IS the point of this thread, he was saying the standard air filter provides basically no restriction.

magna00

fom what i have read on this forum there have been many many thread about people saying that their new K&N panel or pod has made huge differences in power/drivability, then come in the people that say that there is no difference'and it's just buyers placebo. The point of this thread is to show that I have in fact been on a dyno and that there is now a solid number between a very very dirty old air filter and no filter at all. 0.8kw atw difference in fact, now i don't know how anyone is going to say that adding a filter in will make more power no matter how free flowing or well designed it is and if you read all of my posts in this thread you will see that my AFR's didn't change between any of my runs and the dyno i had my car on was very stable with the readings it was giving (if i hadn't said that yet i have now).

sumary: we now have a solid number to make reference to when people say that pods and hiflow panels are the best mods ever.

The surface area of the filter is so much larger than the intake pipe, designed this way to keep pressure drop to a minimum and allow extended service intervals. I guess if there was a few KW to be gained from fitting a higher flow filter then Mitsubishi would have fitted them to the likes of the Ralliart, pretty cheap mod compared to cams, extractors etc. Clearly manufacturers feel that there isn't much to be gained.

As for the snorkel, maybe there is an issue when the bonnet is closed? Can't imagine the Kiwis spending time and money relocating the intake if it didn't get results.