so here i am driving along and bam car stops dead and i hear a noise like running over sand

open the bonnent only to find the alt belt snapped but would that just kill that car like that?

and are they hard 2 do as i will replace it my self

cheers

so here i am driving along and bam car stops dead and i hear a noise like running over sand

open the bonnent only to find the alt belt snapped but would that just kill that car like that?

and are they hard 2 do as i will replace it my self

cheers
Considering it runs your alternator, which powers your battery, which powers the car, no real suprise to see it stopped dead!

very easy to change.
Your battery will most likely need a re-charge aswell as running it like that would of killed it flat

No it will not kill the car UNLESS it has cut your wire for the Crank Angle sensor

The car runs off the battery, not the altinator. The altinator only charges the battery and that is about it.

Just hope a bit has not gone in and taken your timing belt with it as this does happen on these engines.

DO NOT attempt to crank the engine until you can give your timing belt a clean bill of health, the CAS is not too hard to replace, little fiddly but all the same easier than valves

BTW< I am in VIc, have belts, cas etc here in my garage, I am more than happy to have a look, where are you located

']Considering it runs your alternator, which powers your battery, which powers the car, no real suprise to see it stopped dead!

very easy to change.
Your battery will most likely need a re-charge aswell as running it like that would of killed it flat




lol thanks dude i would have known that if i had used my brain :P thats ok then ill swap that over tomorrow then back into my own car again

No it will not kill the car UNLESS it has cut your wire for the Crank Angle sensor

The car runs off the battery, not the altinator. The altinator only charges the battery and that is about it.

Just hope a bit has not gone in and taken your timing belt with it as this does happen on these engines.

DO NOT attempt to crank the engine until you can give your timing belt a clean bill of health, the CAS is not too hard to replace, little fiddly but all the same easier than valves

BTW< I am in VIc, have belts, cas etc here in my garage, I am more than happy to have a look, where are you located

Hmm....after a while though (has happened to friends of mine) of it not charging the alternator, and where its just running off the battery's power (specially if its a crappy battery or on its way out) wont that kill the car is its depleted the battery totally?

No it will not kill the car UNLESS it has cut your wire for the Crank Angle sensor

The car runs off the battery, not the altinator. The altinator only charges the battery and that is about it.

Just hope a bit has not gone in and taken your timing belt with it as this does happen on these engines.

DO NOT attempt to crank the engine until you can give your timing belt a clean bill of health, the CAS is not too hard to replace, little fiddly but all the same easier than valves

BTW< I am in VIc, have belts, cas etc here in my garage, I am more than happy to have a look, where are you located



already cranked it over a few times b4 i opened the bonnet so hope its still all good ill get it apart tomorrow and make sure whats the timming belt like to replace?


and im in bendigo near melbourne

EDIT: and yes it will but it died strait away like as the belt snapped it died

If the motor died straight away it is not the battery or alt. Hopefully you have cut your cas wire, it runs down the front of the manifold into the timing cover.

If you have not done a timing belt before and do not have the proper tools, get it done by someone who has or you may find yourself regretting saving a few bucks

No it will not kill the car UNLESS it has cut your wire for the Crank Angle sensor

The car runs off the battery, not the altinator. The altinator only charges the battery and that is about it.

Just hope a bit has not gone in and taken your timing belt with it as this does happen on these engines.

DO NOT attempt to crank the engine until you can give your timing belt a clean bill of health, the CAS is not too hard to replace, little fiddly but all the same easier than valves

BTW< I am in VIc, have belts, cas etc here in my garage, I am more than happy to have a look, where are you located

Not so,its the other way around,once started, the cars electrics are run from the alternators output,the battery is only there for a "buffer" and to provide a reserve when needed for starting and electrics use when not running,also it gives a refernce point to the alts reg, so it can regulate output etc,and yes,it can cuase ther car to stop/stall if it fails,so worth checking on a test bench IMO.

Steve

Not so,its the other way around,once started, the cars electrics are run from the alternators output,the battery is only there for a "buffer" and to provide a reserve when needed for starting and electrics use when not running,also it gives a refernce point to the alts reg, so it can regulate output etc,and yes,it can cuase ther car to stop/stall if it fails,so worth checking on a test bench IMO.

Steve

Sorry mate, but having studied auto electics, done my ticket in EFI etc I can clearly tell you that you are mistaken. Yes there is a refrence to the reg but that is all about it, Magna's and most cars for that matter will be happy to run on a fully charged battery

You can run any car without the alt even connected provided the battery has sufficient charge. My TF recently dropped the alt belt soon after I got it, drove home quite happily less alt and aircon, put on a new belt and all good. My KR did this years ago as well but there you also lose power steering.

Back to this, the car will not just stop if the alt loses a belt unless the CAS has been damaged or timing belt has been hit too. Many have had this happen.

if the belt snaps, how can you tell if it's hit the timing belt?
does it crack the timing belt cover or something

and yes cars do run fine without a alternator, my old car lasted about a week before we figured out what was wrong lol

You can run any car without the alt even connected provided the battery has sufficient charge. My TF recently dropped the alt belt soon after I got it, drove home quite happily less alt and aircon, put on a new belt and all good. My KR did this years ago as well but there you also lose power steering.


very true, my old ED falcon travelled 20km on a jump start with a stuffed alternator, to pickup and alternator!
although i cant see how it can effect the timing belt unless it relies on the alternator belt somehow?

Sometimes when the belt breaks it wraps around the crand inbetween the pulley and the cover, it breaks through and the belt can then go under the timing belt and cause it to slip or sometimes even break. Now if it jumps one tooth, there will be no damage, car will loose power but not stop.

Best way to check, remove the front belt cover, turn the engine by hand until timing marks line up, check the mark on the cam pulley lines up, if is 180 deg out is fine as another rotation wil line it up.

First to save this drama, check the wire I mentioned before. Now if your battery is sus, old, or simply lacking enough grunt to go, jump starting with our without a belt will allow the engine to start provided the above is ok. As the belt does run quite close to the wire it is very likely this has been the issue

If you want to give the CAS a go yourself, is not that hard, remove the power steering belt, remove the harmonic balancer (main pulley), remove the alt, top mount and mount bracket. Then remove the bottom timing belt cover and you will see the CAS near the crank. Is not hard when you know how lol

very true, my old ED falcon travelled 20km on a jump start with a stuffed alternator, to pickup and alternator!
although i cant see how it can effect the timing belt unless it relies on the alternator belt somehow?

It can wrap itself around the crank pulley, causing the crank pulley to jam, which (going off info on here) can cause it to skip teeth.
skipped teeth = stuffed heads

Sorry mate, but having studied auto electics, done my ticket in EFI etc I can clearly tell you that you are mistaken. Yes there is a refrence to the reg but that is all about it, Magna's and most cars for that matter will be happy to run on a fully charged battery

You can run any car without the alt even connected provided the battery has sufficient charge. My TF recently dropped the alt belt soon after I got it, drove home quite happily less alt and aircon, put on a new belt and all good. My KR did this years ago as well but there you also lose power steering.

Back to this, the car will not just stop if the alt loses a belt unless the CAS has been damaged or timing belt has been hit too. Many have had this happen.

I did 4 years of auto electrical study myself and was always taught that the alternator supplies the power while the car is running ,aswell as doing the other things i stated in my other post,Yes, the car will run without an alt as the battery has some reserve power,but not for long,i stand by my comment that the alt provides the power while the vehicle is running and the battery is only a storage device for the charge,well thats if everthing is running correctly and you are not drawing more than the alt can provide!,ill do some checking,if im wrong,ill happily eat humble pie,will you do the same?

As for the other advise,could be on the money

Steve

I did 4 years of auto electrical study myself and was always taught that the alternator supplies the power while the car is running ,aswell as doing the other things i stated in my other post,Yes, the car will run without an alt as the battery has some reserve power,but not for long,i stand by my comment that the alt provides the power while the vehicle is running and the battery is only a storage device for the charge,well thats if everthing is running correctly and you are not drawing more than the alt can provide!,ill do some checking,if im wrong,ill happily eat humble pie,will you do the same?

As for the other advise,could be on the money

Steve

Mate, you just contradicted yourself in your comment, you stated that the alt runs the car but the car will run off the battery as the battery has some reserve??? You originally stated that the car will stop immediately but then in your last post stated it will run off the reserve???

The alt supplies charge to the battery to keep it topped up while running thus the whole reason to have a regulator, to prevent over charge of the battery.

As I stated several times now, PROVIDED the battery is healthy the car will run until such a time as the battery can not longer provide power for the relays, this for interest is 10.4v. Falcons actually will not start sometimes when the battery appears to be cranking the engine normally but the relays will not kick in due to low crank voltage. Magnas will stall just post start up for the same reason as the battery has not recovered as yet.

I stand by my statement, I have driven far too many cars when the belt has failed, alt was either missing alltogether (dont ask) or had died and was giving absolutely no charge. Both carb and efi cars (efi cars will die sooner as so much is run off the electrics)

Mate, you just contradicted yourself in your comment, you stated that the alt runs the car but the car will run off the battery as the battery has some reserve??? You originally stated that the car will stop immediately but then in your last post stated it will run off the reserve???

The alt supplies charge to the battery to keep it topped up while running thus the whole reason to have a regulator, to prevent over charge of the battery.

As I stated several times now, PROVIDED the battery is healthy the car will run until such a time as the battery can not longer provide power for the relays, this for interest is 10.4v. Falcons actually will not start sometimes when the battery appears to be cranking the engine normally but the relays will not kick in due to low crank voltage. Magnas will stall just post start up for the same reason as the battery has not recovered as yet.

I stand by my statement, I have driven far too many cars when the belt has failed, alt was either missing alltogether (dont ask) or had died and was giving absolutely no charge. Both carb and efi cars (efi cars will die sooner as so much is run off the electrics)

Come again?,I said nothing of the sort,as a reserve/storage device,why the hell wouldnt it have enough juice in it to run a load for its designated time, 30A/h or whatever it is rated at,but if it knackered and the alt fails,the car MAY stop,no garuntees,as the lack of valtage etc may shut down the ecu etc,but like i said,it will provide power for a LIMITED time from battery power alone!,then say goodnight

but back to my main query of your statemant that the car runs from the battery whilst running and not the alt,go measure the voltage across your terminals of the battery while the car is off,now start the car and measure,whats the figure,approx 13.8 V or so,now check any circuit in the vehicle,it wil be at the alts voltage,not the battery voltage

http://www.silvhornautomotive.com/electrical-systems.php (see the battery section,only supplies power when the alternator load is exceed)

http://www.innerauto.com/Auto_Part/Alternator/

http://www.carpartswholesale.com/cpw/oldsmobile~alternator.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/accessories_electronics/0502sc_alt/index.html

http://www.car-stuff.com/eaglealternator.htm

seems to back up my theory that the alt provides power to the cars electrical circuits whilst running,remember you was the one that said "The car runs off the battery, not the altinator. The altinator only charges the battery and that is about it.".I concede it may not have anyhting at all to do with this fellas car,im more questioning your alt and battery theory

Steve

So if that were the case the car would be connected to the alt, not the battery????

Mate, we are never going to agree, I have been a mechanic, ran my own business and been in the trade for over 20 years, I will stick with what I know, you stick with what you think

Oh and I guess in the way you are looking at it the alt does provide power for the car to run by storing this power in the battery as per demand. To say that the car actually runs off the alt is technically incorrect but I can see how you are thinking and where you are coming from but that brings us back to the battery supplying the car, the alt supplying the battery the power for the car. Sounds confusing. Just think a little wider out of the square and think of current path, you would have learnt this in your basic auto electic course, power will flow by the easiest path.

Of course the voltage will lift when the car is running as the alt is charging the battery.

Simple fact, cars will run without an altinator or altinator belt, you stated it will cause it to stop in your first post, you were wrong PROVIDED the battery has enough charge to run the car in which case there may have been other symptoms previously like stalling when first started etc.

Now back to the OP, and lets stick to this guys issues, not out difference in opinion

Mate, once you have a look post up, I am keeping an eye on most days at work so I am more than happy to lend a hand online if I can lol

ok sit rep

threw the alt belt and the PS belt as there are 2 belts correct me if im wrong?

timming belt lis still on and spinning may have skipped teeth yet 2 look

but the belt did snap and wrap it self round the harmonic balancer but managed to get that off gonna get new belts tomorrow and see how i go hoping the timming is still fine but i can see what the belt has been chewing at the timming case

i always thought that the alternator ran the car plus charged the battery
but when my battery died cause the alternator wire wasnt attached made me think that the car runs from the battery
but if the car was run by the alternator then wouldnt there be only one power wire running to the starter motor?
the alternator is there to keep the battery charged while the cars constantly pulling power from the battery
well thats how i see it :)

Battery discussion is over all, we need to help this guy, we have stated our opinions and that will be fine now

Mate, before you put your belts on, check your crank angle sensor wires, they come out of the front belt cover and go up to a 3 pin triangular plug that bolts to the top manifold. Run down the wires and see if there is any damage. The car WILL NOT run if the CAS has been damaged, wires cut etc

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=965907&postcount=13

In the second pic, just above the pulley you will see the wire, is a little hard to see, this goes upto the above mentioned plug...thanks Mr_Roberto for the pic lol

ok another update sorry bout all the posts :P lol


umm so the CAS wire looks fine just had the timming case off n cranked it over once belts on and moving about fine still not sure if the timming is off

but it wont start for what ever reason so

Check your cam timing mate, that is the next step.

Do you have access to a Noid light, you can check for injector pulse as well, this will clear your CAS as well

Check your cam timing mate, that is the next step.

Do you have access to a Noid light, you can check for injector pulse as well, this will clear your CAS as well

i think the plan is ill replace both belts and try it and if it dont work my mechanic wont charge me much to just throw the timming back into line

So if that were the case the car would be connected to the alt, not the battery????

Mate, we are never going to agree, I have been a mechanic, ran my own business and been in the trade for over 20 years, I will stick with what I know, you stick with what you think

Oh and I guess in the way you are looking at it the alt does provide power for the car to run by storing this power in the battery as per demand. To say that the car actually runs off the alt is technically incorrect but I can see how you are thinking and where you are coming from but that brings us back to the battery supplying the car, the alt supplying the battery the power for the car. Sounds confusing. Just think a little wider out of the square and think of current path, you would have learnt this in your basic auto electic course, power will flow by the easiest path.

Of course the voltage will lift when the car is running as the alt is charging the battery.

Simple fact, cars will run without an altinator or altinator belt, you stated it will cause it to stop in your first post, you were wrong PROVIDED the battery has enough charge to run the car in which case there may have been other symptoms previously like stalling when first started etc.

Now back to the OP, and lets stick to this guys issues, not out difference in opinion

Mate, once you have a look post up, I am keeping an eye on most days at work so I am more than happy to lend a hand online if I can lol

Im Done!,I might post this topic on electricals engineer forum to see how wrong i am i dare say just for giggles and post back,(even if i am right or wrong )and we could go all-night,but im happy with my theory,you keep yours aswell,but i will concede i was most likely wrong with my "will stop a car immediately" comment without knowing condition of the posters battery etc ,but that was my mistake,but i can also see how you thought the car ran all the electrics from the battery alone, although technically incorrect aswell,remember you said and i quote
"The car runs off the battery, not the altinator. The altinator only charges the battery and that is about it" ,that will be my question to them as it seems to have confused the lot of us

To the OP,hope all goes well fella

Steve

i think the plan is ill replace both belts and try it and if it dont work my mechanic wont charge me much to just throw the timming back into line

Yeah not as easy as putting the timing belt back to how it was, Its either buggered or it isnt.

ok do both belts changed still doin the same thing :(

goes to the mechanic on friday :(

As stated, the car should start with the belts off, I know every third gen I have ever worked on will if needed.

Again check your timing belt but also have a damn good look at the cas wire from top to bottom (where it goes into the cover)

As stated, the car should start with the belts off, I know every third gen I have ever worked on will if needed.

Again check your timing belt but also have a damn good look at the cas wire from top to bottom (where it goes into the cover)


i did looks fine top and bottom and both new belts are on im out of ideas :P this is my first new car lol last car was a VK 5ltr ;)

I did 4 years of auto electrical study myself and was always taught that the alternator supplies the power while the car is running ,aswell as doing the other things i stated in my other post,Yes, the car will run without an alt as the battery has some reserve power,but not for long,i stand by my comment that the alt provides the power while the vehicle is running and the battery is only a storage device for the charge,well thats if everthing is running correctly and you are not drawing more than the alt can provide!,ill do some checking,if im wrong,ill happily eat humble pie,will you do the same?

As for the other advise,could be on the money

Steve
You're both right. The car needs electricity to power the plugs. It doesn't care where it comes from, battery or alternator. It won't start without the battery and won't drive for too long without an alternator. I've driven a car without a battery and without an alternator (obviously not at the same time).