In the past month I have been having some problems with my automatic 4cylinder TS magna. A couple of times, just randomly, I have come out from the shops and my car has refused to start, it wasn’t a battery problem tho because I could hear the engine trying to turn over but it just wouldn’t fire. Usually after about half an hour of doing nothing in particular it will just start and I can drive home. Only once it has done anything different when it cut out when I was stopped at the lights.

After the first time it happened I took my car to the mechanics and they said that because it fixes itself it would be hard to diagnose but they would do their best and would get their auto electrician to hook up their instruments to test it. After charging $320 and replacing 2 parts, a fuel switch and something else that the electrician’s equipment said could cause other problems.

About a week after getting the car back it has happened again.

Has this happened to anyone else? Would anyone have any ideas as to what the problem might be?

Any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks.

Aside from your main problem it almost sounds like you might be flooding initially it which might explain why it is ok after 30 mins left to settle. There could be a number of issues.

I guess the things I would be considering are:

- Check your air intake... make sure the air filter/s are not clogged
- Fuel... either the wrong mix of fuel/air or there could be water in the tank, blocked filter etc
- Spark Plugs... how old are they, are they soiled, burnt or the gaps wrong etc
- Spark plug leads and HT lead etc... are they all in good condition and carrying a spark?
- Ignition timing... is it off?
- Head gasket leak or break
- Compression test on the cylinders.

Really a mechanic should be able to trace and test the basics... get a second opinion if you have to... some just aren't much chop. If any of the three basics are not working properly (air, fuel, ignition) you are going to have troubles and even lead to low efficiency and potentially more cost later on. Someone just needs to go over the basics and not make excuses ("they said that because it fixes itself it would be hard to diagnose")

I had what sounds like the same problem a couple of months ago. Try doing this. When it cranks and doesn't start, take out the key and try again.
Mine turned out to be a fault with the immobilizer sending wrong start codes to the key!! It works on a rolling code system. The immobilizer sounds like it's not sending a start code to your key, making it crank but not start.
Mine did it a lot for about a month and mysteriosly fixed itself.
I found the removing the key and trying again was the only way the car would start!!

I had what sounds like the same problem a couple of months ago. Try doing this. When it cranks and doesn't start, take out the key and try again.
Mine turned out to be a fault with the immobilizer sending wrong start codes to the key!! It works on a rolling code system. The immobilizer sounds like it's not sending a start code to your key, making it crank but not start.
Mine did it a lot for about a month and mysteriosly fixed itself.
I found the removing the key and trying again was the only way the car would start!!
Being a 4cyl, im guessing no immob, unless elite, then check the ETACS system.

I will fix your problem right here for you

This has happened to me on all 3 of my cars with 2.6's and for $50 bucks you can fix it.

Create a relay between your starter motor and your battery. Sparky should be able to do it for $50. Problem solved.

2.6's do not like to start when they are 'warm', this becomes more frequent with age. Its because they actually rise above operating temperature after you turn your car off because mitsi thermos don't stay on long enough, so its kinda like a fail safe. Took me ages to figure it out, especially when I would leave the car for like 5 min to grab some milk and then it just wouldn't start. I figured out lifting the bonnet for 10 min and it started fine.

I will be very surprised if this doesn't fix your problem.

I reckon your car always starts in the cold, and this problem only happens after a drive. Yes?

Let me know how you go mate, hope I've been a help



Ben

Has the same problem on my TS - turned out the aftermarket cruise control had been wired into the ignition switch and had become unreliable - either the module itself or the wiring. I replaced the ignition switch and all was well.

Unless you have a similar aftermarket cruise this isn't likely to be your problem, though.

EDIT: Fault finding.
Ignition coil, distributor HAL sensor - can act up before they fail completely.
Could be the factory immobiliser, if you have one. Later TSs came with an immobiliser, but they produce a "no crank" situation if they act up.
Could be a failing starter motor or solenoid
Inhibitor switch - on top of gearbox, can give heat related unreliability problems.

2.6's do not like to start when they are 'warm', this becomes more frequent with age. Its because they actually rise above operating temperature after you turn your car off because mitsi thermos don't stay on long enough, so its kinda like a fail safe. Took me ages to figure it out, especially when I would leave the car for like 5 min to grab some milk and then it just wouldn't start. I figured out lifting the bonnet for 10 min and it started fine.
I am not doubting you are right but do you not think that some of the basics could be contributing to overheating like a dodgy thermostat, faulty water pump, lack of coolant or thermo fan (if fitted) is not working? etc

I sometimes think people try to make bandaid fixes to mask an underlying basic yet fundamental problem.

Sure cars get old but there are much older cars on the road that still ride/perform like a dream.

I had what sounds like the same problem a couple of months ago. Try doing this. When it cranks and doesn't start, take out the key and try again.
Mine turned out to be a fault with the immobilizer sending wrong start codes to the key!! It works on a rolling code system. The immobilizer sounds like it's not sending a start code to your key, making it crank but not start.
Mine did it a lot for about a month and mysteriosly fixed itself.
I found the removing the key and trying again was the only way the car would start!!


TS magna immobiliser isn't that complex - it uses a normal key. But you are right about removing the key and trying again. Also, if you leave the key in - ignition off - for 30 minutes this overcomes the immobiliser too. (TSs fitted with immobiliser has stickers on the rear door fixed glass saying so)

I will fix your problem right here for you

This has happened to me on all 3 of my cars with 2.6's and for $50 bucks you can fix it.

Create a relay between your starter motor and your battery. Sparky should be able to do it for $50. Problem solved.

2.6's do not like to start when they are 'warm', this becomes more frequent with age. Its because they actually rise above operating temperature after you turn your car off because mitsi thermos don't stay on long enough, so its kinda like a fail safe. Took me ages to figure it out, especially when I would leave the car for like 5 min to grab some milk and then it just wouldn't start. I figured out lifting the bonnet for 10 min and it started fine.

I will be very surprised if this doesn't fix your problem.

I reckon your car always starts in the cold, and this problem only happens after a drive. Yes?

Let me know how you go mate, hope I've been a help



Ben


My TS v6 had the same problem a few years ago. Start fine most of the time but sometimes put the key in and turn and absolutely nothing. Most of the time i just had to wait a while and keep trying until it started (had to get it towed once though when it just refused to start).

Multiple visits to the mechanic failed to work out the problem. Friend who worked for a company specialising in gauges and other electrical devices for automotive use worked the problem out. THe fix was exactly what 86_elite described "Create a relay between your starter motor and your battery". He got one of his installers to hook it up for $20 under the counter and never had a starting problem since.

Such a pain in the ass problem though, especially when your in a hurry and car refuses to start.

I can vouch for 86_Elite's tip. We used to have a TR 4-cylinder Magna with "Hot Start" issues. Leaving it to settle for a while would allow us to start it.

To clarify, the cooling system, engine and transmission were otherwise mechanically sound. The only remaining option was electrical.

The problem was exactly as described, and a relay between the battery and starter motor fixed the problem. I still have the system in place on the old car, if I have time i'll document the process and wiring as a reference point for the club.

Thanks for all the input, 86-elite's hot start idea sounds about right and tomorrow I will see about taking it to someone to try it. The only problem I can see is the one time the car cut out at the lights after being running for about 20 minutes, does this fit in with the diagnosis?

Thanks

You can easily see if its voltage drop as some as suggested by making sure the thing is in park or neautral (or you will kill yourself) and the handbrake on,and getting under the car or maybe in the engine bay and bridging the main battery post on the solenoide to the little push on terminal near it,this is just bypassing the igntion switch and telling you if it is that thats faulty or is giving resistance etc,

But to do it properly,you should do it right after it doesnt start via the key to help with the elimination of faulty parts

Does the engine kick over as per normal?, or does the strater make a "whirring" noise when this is happening ?
(meaning slipping starter clutch)

If it doesnt help by doing the above,i would be suggesting spark or fuel,not starter,and if it does cut out whilest running,it defiantely isnt the starter doing this as it only works while cranking,thats it

steve

Magnas are strange and wonderful things, but I'm just basing my opinion on 2 other cars (3 inc this one) with 2.6's and every time ive had the same problem, and a relay has fixed it without fail. Have never had a problem since.

As for your car dying after 20 mins, have a look at your alternator, maybe its not getting a proper charge? I'll leave this issue for someone else to tackle but seriously, chuck a relay on your magna, best old car mod ever:P

And yeah, my cooling, everything is working 100% its just a mitsi thing, cuz I had it happen in my 1st gen, then my 84GK sikma as well as my TR. Its nothing to to with ECU, they just dont like to start up when they are all hot and flustered lol:bowrofl:

Alternator is fine, replaced it about a year ago and the battery light hasnt come on since.

Just to clarify, when it happens: When I turn the key I can definitely hear the engine turning over, it just wont fire. Is that what was happening to your car 86-elite? or does it not turn over at all and just make a clicking sound? Which I am under the impression is what happens when the motor is too hot.

Nah, in my case, generally it wont crank at all, but yes, some times it will crank and not start. Just work with 1 problem at a time, get this relay installed, should take.... 30 mins at a sparky shop MAX, and see how you go, then we will figure out the other half of it if stalling continues. It could be an earthing problem? Just look all over your engine for maybe any exposed wiring? Or loose wiring? Never hurts to have a gander.

The "add a relay" fix is an old one, and it works well - provided the problem is caused by a tired battery, tired starter motor or high resistance in the wiring of the ignition/starting circuits. Anything else causing the problem will not be helped by this - but its worth a try.

Hmm, I am now beginning to think that the relay idea may not be suited to my problem, I can definitely hear the starter motor working without any trouble. If electonics related I think it would have to be something to do with sparks not being made or something. Although I spoke to a mechanic today who thinks that it could be the car's computer that is not sending fuel to the engine or something, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks

for 50 bucks, put the relay on and see what happens, then you will find out soon enough mate.... gotta start somewhere, and this is cheaper than anything else that your going to do electrical wise if there is another underlying issue.

I am not disputing this relay thing works, hopefully it is some quirky electrical glitch...but I still cant help but think it's possibly masking a more fundamental problem which would be worth investigating.

I have always been from the school of fixing the main cause and not just doing band aid fixes. Chances are this relay works and the problem is never investigated further.

I once had a mate who rigged up a oil catch can to catch the leaking oil dripping from his engine (it was bad, but he was lazy... spent his money on choof rather than stuff he needed lol) every once in a while he would pour the oil back in his engine :nuts:... sure it "worked" and he was pretty proud of his work... but it only lasted about 6 months before it seized and had to be towed away to motorcar heaven.

Don't think I am knocking the suggested fix, just a little perplexed maybe... anyway, I'll stop harping on now lol

Hey, yeah I know that it might work to create the relay to fix the problem that others have had and I am thankful for the input, but I am not sure that mine is the same problem. Firstly, mine has never stopped completely and not done anything, it does try to start so I dont think that if it was a failsafe thing that it would allow the engine to turn over. Also, the problem has not happened very often, since the last time it did it and I went back to the mechanics more than a week ago and he didnt do anything, I have driven up and down the coast and not had a single problem so if I did try this quick fix I would not know if it worked I would only know if it didnt when it happens again.

The auto electrician said he thought it could be a faulty car computer and he pulled it out to have a look at it when I was there, he couldnt see anything wrong but i was wondering if its possible that taking out and reconnecting the computer may have fixed a loose connection and that is why its been working lately?

Thanks

Just to clarify, when it happens: When I turn the key I can definitely hear the engine turning over, it just wont fire. Is that what was happening to your car 86-elite? or does it not turn over at all and just make a clicking sound? Which I am under the impression is what happens when the motor is too hot.

This is a problem we are having with a TS V6 SE we have just bought. The car will start when it's cold fine, you can drive 10km down the road and turn the car off and then try to start it again and all it does is go " click click click" or sometimes nothing at all. The engine has never exceeded operating temperature so I believe it's not overheating. I'm suspecting a wiring issue somewhere in the loom or maybe the auto safety switch? It is really starting to annoy me especially when you're in a carpark at the supermarket covered in grease playing with wires under the bonnet. ;)

This is a problem we are having with a TS V6 SE we have just bought. The car will start when it's cold fine, you can drive 10km down the road and turn the car off and then try to start it again and all it does is go " click click click" or sometimes nothing at all. The engine has never exceeded operating temperature so I believe it's not overheating. I'm suspecting a wiring issue somewhere in the loom or maybe the auto safety switch? It is really starting to annoy me especially when you're in a carpark at the supermarket covered in grease playing with wires under the bonnet. ;)

when it 'click click click' get something (tyre iron) and give your starter motor a bit of a thump...if it starts just swap the starter over...

I agree with yann but its not the same problem as mine, mine would try to turn over and everything but I dont think the ecu was sending any fuel

Replaced the ECU and MPI relay? when it starts does it run perfect? anything to do with your dizzy cap/button?

I haven't replaced anything yet. When it starts it runs fine... It's just getting it started which is the problem. :) I can manually start it with a screwdriver crossed over the two terminals on the starter motor which is why I think it may be a wiring issue. Starting it like that however isn't always ideal in certain locations. lol

I am not doubting you are right but do you not think that some of the basics could be contributing to overheating like a dodgy thermostat, faulty water pump, lack of coolant or thermo fan (if fitted) is not working? etc

I sometimes think people try to make bandaid fixes to mask an underlying basic yet fundamental problem.

Having the same problem, but it just appeared randomly, the car is otherwise in sound condition, very good condition actually, cooling system does not leak, green as it was when it was last changed (not long ago at all) the water pump is fine, same as thermostat and thermo fans so not always the case re: that this is a band-aid fix masking an underlying problem, or if it is, it's neither of the things mentioned above... so if anything this is why I'm trying to figure this one out 100% because it's strange for sure, but seems like the relay is the closest resolution to fixing the problem, just because in my case at least, most other things have been checked, and just recently purchased a brand new battery and alternator, so not either of those. But starter is fine also, cranks the engine over everytime, but something is causing it to not want to start after it has been turned off when reaching operating temp. The fact that opening the bonnet allows you to start it sooner, is definately giving hints to something just getting too hot, and not allowing the car to fire up until it's cooled down a little, but again it does crank, just won't fire.


The problem was exactly as described, and a relay between the battery and starter motor fixed the problem. I still have the system in place on the old car, if I have time i'll document the process and wiring as a reference point for the club.

Cruiser, if you could get back to us with the wiring/pics of the fix that would be so great!


You can easily see if its voltage drop as some as suggested by making sure the thing is in park or neautral (or you will kill yourself) and the handbrake on,and getting under the car or maybe in the engine bay and bridging the main battery post on the solenoide to the little push on terminal near it,this is just bypassing the igntion switch and telling you if it is that thats faulty or is giving resistance etc,

I would love to try this in the mean time, only finding the post a bit hard to understand, is this basically the old start-the-car-with-a-screwdriver-on-the-starter method?

Folks, I have a 1986 Elite that has the same problem: won't start (no starter motor) when warm. Wait 45 minutes to an hour and it starts perfectly.

Maybe it's a coincidence, but the problem first appeared after the engine was steam-cleaned/degreased a couple of times. NRMA Road Service took a look at it and said there were low (around 5) volts at the starter motor solenoid. So, a quick fix was to touch a jumper wire from the battery +ve terminal to the starter motor solenoid which would start the engine nicely whenever the problem occurred, making sure of course the transmission was in Park and the handbrake on before opening the bonnet. This worked great except when raining, cold, dark, wearing whites, or on a date.

Then a Mitsubishi service workshop took the car to an auto electrician who did exactly what 86_Elite recommended: they installed a small slave relay to the starter motor solenoid ($80) with an iron-clad guarantee it would "never ever" have that starting problem again. To prove their point, they threw out my trusty jumper wire. But let me tell you folks, the "never ever" guarantee lasted about 18 hours - the next day I had to drive 600 km with several 45-minute stops along the way (to let the engine cool down before it would start again) and had no jumper wire to quickstart. Was not a happy chappie.

Tonight I did some more work tracing the fault. Power through the ignition key switch is all okay (no voltage drop) and the next step will be under-bonnet measurements. Will let you know how it turns out.

P.S. In the meantime, I'm using a new all-weather jumper wire ... this time it's inside the car, plugs into the cigarette lighter socket which then operates the starter solenoid slave relay. The car starts normally each time using this trick, but the original fault is still there, waiting to be found.

Yeah had this problem a few times myself.. in my case removing and re-applying battery power seems to help.

Thats weird that the relay didnt work. Ive had like 3 x 2.6 engines and all done the same thing and ive chucked the relay in and its fixed it.

So "captain charlie" are you saying that idea didnt work?

I would definately check your earth cable and what are the condition of your battery terminals like? Try taking them off, cleaning them up and making sure you have a good solid grip on each terminal.

Like ive said in previous posts, just start small and work your way through.

If its a realy fixing the problem I would start looking at voltage drop in your starter motor circuit. Both cars I have have had a full "earth cleaning" treatment where I undo all the earths, strip them back to metal/metal and re-tighten. I have a few heavy duty truck starter solenoids here if anyone wants one let me know (for free brand new delco remy ones)

Like the 3000GT's....the earth's in em were JUST sufficient for them. Mitsu didnt go crazy with thicker earth cable etc. I would also check the plug near the battery where the black/yellow starter wire has a connection.

Ok, well something new for my situation, is that for the first time, on Saturday, my car died, before it even reached anywhere near normal operating temperature.

It died on me, basically 1km from my house, started car, reversed out of driveway, get onto main road, not a k down the road, the car died on me. And would not allow me to start it again, till it had basically cooled to like, no operating temperature, had to wait like 30m with bonnet up before it started. Cranks as usual but no start till yeah probaby 30m. Now I'm starting to think the relay won't really do much for me, as why would putting the relay, stop the car from actually dying in the first place, it might allow it to start again straight away which would be good, but it wouldn't stop the car from dying in the first place (how?) so I'm thinking the cause of the problem is greater. I've spoken to a mechanic who's very good (havent actually taken car there, he's very busy atm) and just from the symptoms he think having a look at and replacing (if possible) the distributor would be the first place to look. And I beleive it's a good place, because since Saturday I cleaned my cap, and noticed my plugs need a change pretty much, gave them a good clean and put everything back. The car actually ran alot better/quieter/smoother and cooler, and it took like much much longer than normal for it to shutoff, so although the problem is still there, it's now prolonged, so thinking on the right track to finding this fault. Should be able to get a distributor and some other parts related to ignition pretty cheap, I'll replace one at a time and diagnose, see if any more pin pointing can obtain any more information.

FYI, there's a similar discussion happening on another Forum: First Generation Magna TM - TP
and the thread is: starting problem, very strange.

Jarus, your latest drama sounds like another one I had recently. Ended up having the fuel filter, ignition module, distributor, and ignition coil replaced, which only fixed part of the problem (if, in fact, they really were all faulty). The rest of the problem went away after the carby was overhauled. The bill? Over $1200.

Thanks for the heads up Captain Charlie, will definately check the thread out and add my experiences too, as I guess really they are nearly no different considering they all relate to the same engine, main differences I guess being whether it's the EFI or Carby version. That bill sounds absolutely shocking!!! :(

Definately been thinking about the fuel filter lately, and since I'm changing the distributor tomorrow, I'll probably go grab a fuel filter and change that while at it. Should be able to source an ignition module and coil for pretty cheap, but definately gonna replace one at a time and diagnose, try and pinpoint the problem more accurately.

If everything bar the carby overhaul fixes it (since I don't have a carby) I won't be looking at a very big bill (< $100 should be) which would be great, but if it's neither of these parts, and then not even like fuel filter/pump either, or ECU. It's gonna be a puzzle and a half IMO. Probably just be cheaper to get a lower km engine and have it replaced.

Well, diagnostically, I changed my cars distributor (after talking to my mechanic on the phone, and him advising me to change the distributor only going off the symptoms I gave him on the phone) and basically...

....the problem has disappeared from my car.

It's the only thing I changed, before starting it up and basically seeing if it'll die on me, it didn't, so to make sure it was properly warmed up and everything I basically went for a decent drive, along the way pulling into some empty streets to simulate city traffic conditions, like basically moving a metre, stopping for a minute, moving another cpl metres, stopping for another few minutes. And not a single issue, as in, it stopped my car from dying, which in turn meant I wouldn't have starting issues, since the car was not dying to not be able to start it. Cycled it on/off also, while it reached its highest operating temp, and all good..

All I can say is, try it if you haven't already, if your symptoms were anything like mine anyway...