OK, Workshop has almost got the car running but a pretty big problem has arisen, Funnily enough, it's with the standard magna box and starter motor (I was expecting it to be wiring + engine troubles tbh)

Anyway, using a manual starter motor too (Bosch)
Now apparently the starter motor is not engaging the flywheel, Its only been engaging by a FRACTION and as such with all the cranking has started to wear out the edges of the flywheel (read > bad)

Now, its a standard GB with a standard flywheel and standard starter motor.
What could be the cause of this? They have tested the original auto starter that was in there and this 2nd hand manual starter motor and they are both fine.
They just dont engage, what could be the problem here?
anyone? :confused:

have they/you put the flywheel on backwards?

are they concave at all? it might be reversed and further away from the starter?

otherwise i have no idea. :confused:

did u use the manual sandwich plate aswell? Might be thinner than the auto one if not.

Re trotty, i dunno about the 6cyls, but the flywheels on the 4pots have studs on them aswell as a smooth solid part on the front that is the same diameter as the toothed side...

have they/you put the flywheel on backwards?

are they concave at all? it might be reversed and further away from the starter?

otherwise i have no idea. :confused:
Nah flywheel is on right, Me and a mate off AMC put it on, it was the correct way dw!
this is as strange as hell, I would prefer them not to pull the box out


FYI everything was used from a manual car, nothing was auto. manual sandwhich plate etc etc all manual

Mate, I would put in the starter and then cable it up to a good battery independant of the car's electrics ie, new cable and earth to a new battery and then a wire from the soloniod to the battery to see if you get crank.

It is not possible to put the flywheel on backwards, the pressure plate would not bolt on then

I am also curious that it was cranking before.

Aside from that, measure the distance from where the starter bolts on to the bell houseing to the front or nearest edge of the ring gear teeth. Then have the starter thrown out (can do this with soloniod removed) and measure. Should have from memory about 10mm coverage. So if the distance is 35mm on the first measurement the distance of throw would need to be 45mm

If this is ok, remove the starter gear from the housung and hold it up to the ring gear and check that the teeth mesh.

At starter idle there is from memory about 5mm clearance to the starter ring gear, this can be measured again with the first measurement above and then measure from the face of the starter to the end of the gear. Subtract the second from the first and there is your measurement'

If these all add up, you have by pure coincidence picked up 2 bad starters.

Also on a final note, the difference between the manual and auto starters, again from memory is the distance of throw out on the starter, auto I think was less throw (has been a while since I played with a second gen starter) You can put a manual starter in an auto but an auto starter will fowl with the ring gear in a manual set up.

Can they/have they checked that the starter motor "throw" is enuf - ie: the solenoid throws the starter gear all the way out?

If its working and cranking OK, but the starter gear doesn't throw full distance, then it won't engage as much as it should. I expect this is the first thing they checked, but thought I'd state the obvious.

Is there any difference in starter motors or bellhousing etc from one model run (ie: TE to TF to TH etc) to another?

Can they/have they checked that the starter motor "throw" is enuf - ie: the solenoid throws the starter gear all the way out?

If its working and cranking OK, but the starter gear doesn't throw full distance, then it won't engage as much as it should. I expect this is the first thing they checked, but thought I'd state the obvious.

Is there any difference in starter motors or bellhousing etc from one model run (ie: TE to TF to TH etc) to another?
It's not cranking now becuase it was only engageing the flywheel a tiny bit, and has obviously stressed those outer joins and worn away at the ends, now leaving no teeth for it to grab onto.

Mal...Thanks for that info, I'll pass it onto the workshop.

by the sounds of it the Gbox will have to come out to repair half of the teeth missing anyways. This will only cause premature wear on the new starter teeth.:doubt:

I imagine the gearbox, flywheel, starter and sandwich plate would need to come from the same model Magna, to get the right mesh. Just a quess.

I imagine the gearbox, flywheel, starter and sandwich plate would need to come from the same model Magna, to get the right mesh. Just a quess.
There was only 1 model GB and was only mated to one model motor, Don't see why they would be different? Either way the whole manual conversion was off a single car.

The problem baffles me. It must be the throwout on the starter, as suggested above.

I'm gonna pose the throwout on the starter issue to them tomorrow, if not, reckon the GB has to be pulled? :(

What engine mate?? (or what engine was the gearbox originally on?),Ill check in my books tomrrow at work,Magnas cause alot of greif in regards to starters as with the 2.6 engines,if it has a bosch,you must use this,and if its jap,same again,auto and manual starters (bosch and jap)starters only differ in one area,thats out of mesh clearance,they are very different between the two,this sounds like your problem (this is measured from the locating flange to the end of the pinion gear at rest)

Steve

What engine mate?? (or what engine was the gearbox originally on?),Ill check in my books tomrrow at work,Magnas cause alot of greif in regards to starters as with the 2.6 engines,if it has a bosch,you must use this,and if its jap,same again,auto and manual starters (bosch and jap)starters only differ in one area,thats out of mesh clearance,they are very different between the two,this sounds like your problem (this is measured from the locating flange to the end of the pinion gear at rest)

Steve
3.5L DOHC From Mitsubishi Debonair
Gearbox from 1995 KS Touring wagon.
I dont mind forking out for more starter's Just really strange.

can you measure the out of mesh clearance on the one that just touches at all?

can you measure the out of mesh clearance on the one that just touches at all?
I'm gonna go into the workshop tomorrow and see what's up (If it doesn't hold them up)
Whats the "out of mesh" clearance? is that distance from starter gear to flywheel? when not engaged?

No, It`s the distance from the locating flange (the circle with a step on the face of the starter) to the very edge of the teeth,one will be 15mm approx,the other will be 9mm approx,this could be the difference between meshing and not meshing reckon you have the 9mm one and need the 15mm type

Steve

No, It`s the distance from the locating flange (the circle with a step on the face of the starter) to the very edge of the teeth,one will be 15mm approx,the other will be 9mm approx,this could be the difference between meshing and not meshing reckon you have the 9mm one and need the 15mm type

Steve
:shock:
Still not understanding that as honestly I havent done much with starter motors these last few months :doubt: BUT I will chase that up tomorrow :D

I've seen problems like this in the past, ended up being the starter itself not throwing out properly. Not always the case but worth looking in too. I'd do what Madmagna said, hook the starter up to another battery and try, if no luck maybe even remove the starter, hook it up and see if its throwing out right on a bench.

No dramas,let me know what you find out,I do this for a living (Auto elec parts interpreter),so if you need any more help,give me a holla,BTW,its hard to explain,i have to do it over the phone everyday,and people are still stumped,so dont worry

']...Gearbox from 1995 KS Touring wagon...:shock: Someone wrecked a KS Touring Wagon! - Damn, there wasn't many of them to start with. :doubt:

OT, I hope some of the above posts help you - having something like this go wrong now sux.

Slick - When I talked to the shop they said they bench tested both starter's and they were fine. So I'll have a chat with them and throw some of this info at them too see what they say.

I'm honestly really stumped, As It's just a magna GB and magna Starter....Couldn't see why they wouldn;t mesh but then again, I'm not the one working on it!

Thanks for the info anyway guys....
Hopefully all sorted soon....All ready to fire up now :(

Puck - Actually no....Was JETBLK's GB From the wagon...He just dropped KB's motor and box in as one:)

good luck mate,so to recap is the manual Gbox from a 2.6 or 3.0 litre?

Ta

good luck mate,so to recap is the manual Gbox from a 2.6 or 3.0 litre?

Ta
3L mate, 2.6L only bolts up to a 2.6L:D

Cheers,I wouldnt know!!!!:redface:

See the pic of the starter down the bottom left?,out of mesh is that distance from the flat "flange" to the top of the gear or cog (where the black line is),on that one its 30mm (maybe enlarge it for a good look),the amount this gear potrudes from the nose cone at rest,dictates how far it engages into the flexplate/flywheel when you hit the key to start

Hope that helps
Steve

So Paul, in effect if you get the first measurement that I initially listed you will then know which starter you need to use. The distacnce between the mount on the gear box to the edge of the ring gear. Take this measurement and compare to the stationary distance on the starter and should be within a few mm.

Im at work and just checked my book,by the looks of it the jap starters can suit both auto and manual but run different out of mesh clearances to suit though, and the bosch one autos only, the jap type are the same units with different pinion at rest values,the one you need has an out of mesh of 19mm at rest,this is manual jap type,if he has both out of the vehicle, i reckon its easier to measure the starter to be honest,either way,if you have a bosch unit,that is not suitable!,and possibly the jap one aswell if its an auto one with 9mm out of mesh

so to recap,if you use my method,it needs to be 19mm at rest on the starter,Madmagna`s will work aswell,i just deal with starters themselves, so i measure them this way,no difference though

steve

Im at work and just checked my book,by the looks of it the jap starters can suit both auto and manual but run different out of mesh clearances to suit though, and the bosch one autos only, the jap type are the same units with different pinion at rest values,the one you need has an out of mesh of 19mm at rest,this is manual jap type,if he has both out of the vehicle, i reckon its easier to measure the starter to be honest,either way,if you have a bosch unit,that is not suitable!,and possibly the jap one aswell if its an auto one with 9mm out of mesh

so to recap,if you use my method,it needs to be 19mm at rest on the starter,Madmagna`s will work aswell,i just deal with starters themselves, so i measure them this way,no difference though

steve

Thanks a ton for that info, super helpful stuff there.
now my other question is, whats a part number for this one with the bigger out of mesh clearance (if that is the one I need) and is there a chance they were fitted to aus magnas? I know a wreckers just down the road with nemerous Manual V6 2nd gens and auto's so I can go have a looksies.

Steevo, thanks for the help mate. Went and got the starter so I'll drop by the workshop today and see how things panned out. 3 year warranty aswell for the discounted price. Pretty sweet dude thanks again.

Something interesting the fellow told me there (Ashdown Ingram) is that you cannot replace a Bosch starter motor with a non bosch starter motor.......and visa versa......Never knew that....

Yeah about the bosch i think i found that out the hard way, I put a bosch in and it dosnt soud great, must get it checked out

Yeah about the bosch i think i found that out the hard way, I put a bosch in and it dosnt soud great, must get it checked out
Well....We both learned something! Not that I care cause if this starter motor works fine It should go well for another 10+ years really.

Also...If your gonna get one...go to Ashdown Ingram....$165.....Which is pretty good considering they had one on the shelf and everything no waiting.

OK Well good news! That starter motor has apparently fixed the issue!







Shame the crank angle sensor died :rant: :rant: :doubt:
If it's not one thing stopping the car from starting, It's another. FFS!!!

Good stuff Paul!,glad it worked out mate,pity about the sensor though,with your luck,if you fell into a barrel of nipples,you would come up suckin your thumb!!

Steve

So the bosch starter motor is wrong and will eat itself, so i found out, now the million dollar question is what stripped, the teeth on the starter or on the other bit on the motor. Will hopefully find out today.

So the bosch starter motor is wrong and will eat itself, so i found out, now the million dollar question is what stripped, the teeth on the starter or on the other bit on the motor. Will hopefully find out today.
Well....if its what happened to me it'll strip the ring gear (Flywheel)
so that means GB out job to replace the ring gear. :(
I was lucky....It caused damage but not TOO much damage...

Steevo....Is it possible to do a small write up with what starter motors suit what cars? Might be a good sticky to save people having to go through this.

got it out, it only wore away about 2-3mm of the bosh starter, luckily the teeth of the bosch sit roughly 10mm below the standard mistubishi one so theres still plenty of teeth left on the ring gear (i hope). i put the original one back in for now which i was told was dead so i could swap the wreckers bosch one and it turned out the old one still cranked, didnt start the car cos of a loose connection or battery issue im guessing. didnt get a chance to fix it as it started to pour down rain.

']Well....if its what happened to me it'll strip the ring gear (Flywheel)
so that means GB out job to replace the ring gear. :(
I was lucky....It caused damage but not TOO much damage...

Steevo....Is it possible to do a small write up with what starter motors suit what cars? Might be a good sticky to save people having to go through this.

Yeah mate,ill see what i can do

']go to Ashdown Ingram....$165.....Which is pretty good considering they had one on the shelf and everything no waiting.
So this is what you paid for the mitsubishi model? my old starter said on the top

m117 2583
12v 5522
G

Thinking of getting a new one, v6 manuals are hard to find at wreckers and the starter is a pain in the ass to get out when the wheels have been taken off.

hey man,yep the same thing happend to me,had me stumped for a while,so me and a mate were under car trying to work this one out,and noticed that we had the starter in and bolted but there was a small gap between the starter and the gear box,but it was tight,so we took it out and looked in the hole,and i could see the plate between the engine and box come in slightly on one side,so we should of changed the plate,and i wasnt going to take the box out again,so i got a long plain driver and knocked the plate back on an angle and i kept doing that until the starter went all the way home ,and that was it problem fixed,and knocking the plate back wont hurt it at all,it mite be easyer if you put a slit in the middle but whatever works,also for my car i had to change all my mounts,they looked the same but they were different,for the manual v6 sits about two inches foward than the auto,so the manual diff clears the chass or steering rack,well that was the deal with the 1g,so yea hope this helps,:nuts: :happy: