A couple of weeks ago the oil was changed in my engine at it's service (5W-40 full synth due to Sprintex blower).

My car is now being converted back to N/A due to the sale and i'm wondering whether i should change the oil back to what i was using pre-blower (10W-50 semi synth), or keep using the 5W-40 that's in there now?

On another note, the spark plugs will be changed over as well. Will be using NGK PFR6J-11 Platinums so my 2000km old NGK BKR7EIX Iridiums are up for grabs for the boosted crowd.

might wanna change the oil to 10W-40

Depends how it gets driven and your climate. Personally, I'd probably run 10W-50 if it gets driven in a lot of city traffic or gets driven hard. Otherwise, 10W-40 is fine.

5W-40 should be fine. The 5W refers to the viscosity of the oil when cold. 5W or 10W when cold is ok.

Please correct me (i'm sure a number will) but wasn't the "factory fill" 5w30? so 5w40 should be fine. It comes done to the "quality" of oil you pay for, if it is quality and costs a "little" more the $20 for 5 litres then you'll get what you pay for.

I mostly used 10-40. Car does 'alot' of urban driving and often meets 5500rpm and so far no worries except for the lifters in the morning making the car rough as a lady of the night from port kembla but once the engine reaches normal running temp everything is peachy.

Just an update on this. Madmagna drained the 5W-40 oil that was in there and refilled with 10W-50 oil a few weeks go. Straight away the engine was quieter and smoother.

So 5W-40 obviously a must when going with a Sprintex blower but if N/A 10W-50 works the best, at least in my case.

I'd love to know what was in my car when I got it, it was slow to rev and not very smooth, a fresh sump of Magnetec (10W40) and it was smoother and revved out smoothly (still lost power at 5500rpm though of course)

I'd love to know what was in my car when I got it, it was slow to rev and not very smooth, a fresh sump of Magnetec (10W40) and it was smoother and revved out smoothly (still lost power at 5500rpm though of course)

I think the bloke took a piss in my old 1J when i bought the soarer, it was going through about a litre every 2-300kms thought i had some problems. After i changed to Mobil 1 it didn't use a drop untill the next change.

Nulon ESL (Engine Stop Leak) works suprisingly well if she's using oil or blowing smoke. A Ford Laser of someone I know was blowing smoke (the blue oil kind), particularly at takeoff, and it didn't matter what oil they used. After running that through it after a few hundred km no more smoke & no more oil burning! I reckon with the oil capacity of the magna you'd need two bottles though :S

Its not an oil thickner, its one of those that supposedly reconditions and softens seals, seems to work a treat. She didn't use it on the next oil change (with the same oil) and it still was fine, but since its fairly inexpensive a bottle of that goes in (as well as worn engine treatment).

like deciple said it depends on your ambient temperature too. A 5w30 for example is only good up to around 40 degrees according to mitsi handbook. We get hotter days than that in the qld sun and other states do too. 10w50 will handle the heat better than 10w40

the performance and economy difference for your everyday driver would almost be inconceivable.

the mitsi manuals also say use the thickest oil for the heat range expected

im a fan of the 10w50:happy: or a 10w70:woot:

seriously the first number doesnt mean a great deal... im running 0w-40 in my evo (different engine i no) but point is the 2nd number is wat u really interested in... do some research on what each number means and you'll understand why...

difference between 5w-40 and 10w-40 in our australian climate is nothing that you need to worry about...

the performance and economy difference for your everyday driver would almost be inconceivable.

the mitsi manuals also say use the thickest oil for the heat range expected

im a fan of the 10w50:happy: or a 10w70:woot:

Anything above 15W50 is too thick to lube when engine is cold.

The difference in economy between 5W50 and 5W/30 or 10W/30 is almost unmeasurable. In computer controlled simulations 0W/20 was worth a maximum of 2% in air temps near zero deg C.

The oil's friction modifiers can exert a bigger influence than oil grade. In fact the oil grade numbers can be quite misleading. What one company grades as 0W/40 another might grade as 10W/40, and another might call it 10W/30. Even within the same brand I've seen 5W/30 that was heavier than the same company's 10W/30.

Cheers,
Alan

seriously the first number doesnt mean a great deal... im running 0w-40 in my evo (different engine i no) but point is the 2nd number is wat u really interested in... do some research on what each number means and you'll understand why...

difference between 5w-40 and 10w-40 in our australian climate is nothing that you need to worry about...


So you reckon this should be ok for a TF:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=100%_Synthetic_5W-40_Long_Life_Petrol_and_Diesel_Engine_Oil

Its recommended for a TH (3.0L or 3.5L) or above, but I think its got to do with engine wear... 5W should be ok in an older engine?

So you reckon this should be ok for a TF:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=100%_Synthetic_5W-40_Long_Life_Petrol_and_Diesel_Engine_Oil

Its recommended for a TH (3.0L or 3.5L) or above, but I think its got to do with engine wear... 5W should be ok in an older engine?

i run a 5w-40 in my TH with 150,000kms on it...

the first number is the thickness of the oil at low temperature and is tested at -17deg Celsius .. we're in australia, the first number doesnt mean a great deal.. our oil is never at -17deg.... the 2nd rating is at 98deg Celsius.. this we are very interested in as its roughly the temp our magna's oil reaches at normally operating temp..

0w,5w, 10w. whatever..doesnt mean a great deal to us here in australia... only time id be concern about it is going too thick (as someone mentioned anything above 15w is getting to thick for a cold start)......

My region it can be get down to -5 in winter and around the 48's in summer and I reckon the 10W50 has both ends covered well.
I run Penrite (http://www.penrite.com.au/index.php) HPR10 in my TF, Penrite recommend this grade.
There are a lot of times I'm towing a trailer (and most recently during that hot spell) when going for a run into Adelaide.
Always nice to have some weight in your oil in those conditions.

i meant the second number should be higher.... my bad the first number doesnt really have too much weight (pardon the pun :happy: ) here in WA cause were lucky to even see -3 degrees... but i stand firm on 10w... refer to the Magna service manual section 12: lubrication

here's an exerpt from a technical manual:

The governing SAE standard is called SAE J300. This "classic" method of defining the "W" rating has since been replaced with a more technical test where a "cold crank simulator" is used at increasingly lowered temps. A 0W oil is tested at −35 °C (−31 °F), a 5W at −30 °C (−22 °F) and a 10W is tested at −25 °C (−13 °F). The real-world ability of an oil to crank in the cold is diminished soon after put into service. The motor oil grade and viscosity to be used in a given vehicle is specified by the manufacturer of the vehicle (although some modern European cars now make no viscosity requirement), but can vary from country to country when climatic or mpg constraints come into play.

------------------------------------------------------------

the higher the second number the better the film strength and performance at higher temps.....atleast out of the bottle.... and i'd only go for a pure synthetic for that..... unless in combating piston slap in an old banger where penrite 40w70 helps ...atleast to about -5 degrees

Oil grade numbers can mean very little, ......... sometimes. It depends on marketing as much as anything.

The truly relevant numbers for oil relate to its thickness at 100 deg C (and remember a lot of modern cars can get the oil temp well over 120-130).

Three grades of Mobil 1 0W/30, 5W/30 and 10W/30 have viscosities of 11.0, 11.3 and 10.0 respectively. So the 10W/30 is actually thinner than those supposed lighter grades.

By comparison Castrol Edge 5W/30 is very thick for a 30 grade oil at 12.2, and Edge 0W/40 is thin at 12.9, as is Edge 5W/40 at 13.1.

Mobil 1 0W/40, 5W/40, 10W/40 are 14.0, 14.9 and 13.8 respectively and Castrol Magnetic 10W/40 is correctly graded at 14.6.

In the 50 grades Mobil 1 5W/50, 15W/50 and 20W/50 are 17.3, 18.1 and 17.7 but Castrol Edge 25W/50 is over 20% thicker at 21.0 and Edge 10W/60 is 24.1; almost twice as thick as Edge 40 grade oils.

For most cars in Australia Mobil 1 5W/50 will be the best all round oil.

Cheers,
Alan

Alan - where abouts do you find that information from?

As a few people on here I run Penrite HPR5 or HPR10 - cant seem to locate that information on the bottle itself?

Does anyone on here run Mobil 1 in there magna? i've always run it in my turbo cars but i didn't think it would be a good choice for an NA magna.

On another note, which oil would be a good choice to quiet down my tappets?

On another note, which oil would be a good choice to quiet down my tappets?
Penrite HPR10 10W-50 semi synthetic

But that question is like asking what's your favourite colour, everyone has their own preference

HPR5 works quite well too, though HPR10 is slightly better (yes I've used both, back to back).

Penrite HPR10 10W-50 semi synthetic

But that question is like asking what's your favourite colour, everyone has their own preference

Yeah i know, i figured someone would tell me what worked for them and theres a pretty good chance it'll work for me too.

Does anyone on here run Mobil 1 in there magna? i've always run it in my turbo cars but i didn't think it would be a good choice for an NA magna.

I use Mobil 1 in my car, as my dad swears by it - he uses it all the cars he's owned (which up until now have all been NA).

its interesting tho... MMC delivered the magna's with a 5w30 but then recommended diamond 15w30...yet the norm is 10w30

and its a given that the synthetics are gonna be better hot or cold...they were made for it...unlike dinooil it was refined to do it

havent used the mobil 1 on a magna though ive used it on other cars and its proven itself there

apparently Amsoil kills Mobil 1 and Redline

Alan - where abouts do you find that information from?

As a few people on here I run Penrite HPR5 or HPR10 - cant seem to locate that information on the bottle itself?

Head for the Penrite website (http://www.penrite.com.au/) find the oil you're after and hit the little PDF links about Product info.

Alan - where abouts do you find that information from?

As a few people on here I run Penrite HPR5 or HPR10 - cant seem to locate that information on the bottle itself?

Quite oil companies will give access to their oil specs. Some print spec sheets for the trade etc and some have it on their web sites. There is a lot of info there and its worth doing the research to understand what all the numbers mean.

Apart from viscosity at 100 deg C other numbers worth noting are the viscosity at 150 deg C, TBN(total base number, indicates oils alkalinity, higher number means less erosion of copper/lead bearings, aluminium etc, due to acid buildup), Noack evaporation test number(faster evaporation means oil thickens more as it gets older and may not lube as well when cold).

I use Mobil 1 5W/50 in my AWD. Graham does too(special blend about 10W/40).

Cheers,
Alan

Penrite 10/something.

Seems to be running quieter.

Alan,

Ok Penrite state the following for HPR10

Viscosity @ 100 degrees celcius - 18.8, meaning its quite thick correct?

Now - real newbie question here - is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

EDIT: Alan, couple of other numbers for you:

TBN 7.5
NOACK 10.7 (expressed as a percentage of mass)

Alan,

Ok Penrite state the following for HPR10

Viscosity @ 100 degrees celcius - 18.8, meaning its quite thick correct?

Now - real newbie question here - is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

I would say a good things,as a thicker film is less likely to "shear" at higher temps,like 100 degrees,but i bet you could go to thick in viscosity and slow down oil trasnfer bewteen the vitals etc,must be a fairly fine line though

Also would like to hear Alans take on it

Steve

It also depends on the conditions that the vehicle is driven in, ambient temperatures, length of drive etc... Just note that the oils contain a viscosity modifier additive that produces a thickening effect at high temperatures (100C) but is dormant at low temperatures.

I would imagine Mobile's 17.3 versus Penrites 18.8 is not much of a difference (at 100C) when comparing to a lot of other "thicker" oils that run at 24+ viscosity.

Modern engines run very tight bearing clearances to stop engine noise so for lubrication you don't want very thick oils. Generally I prefer to see viscosity in the range of 13.8-15.8 for general road use(Mobil 1 5W/50 is actually a bit thicker than the ideal). An engine with loose copper lead bearings can use anything up to about 19.0.

However its a mistake to think that thicker is better and more shear resistant. Shear resistance is dependent on the base fluid of the product. Cheaper base fluids can be very thick but have poor shear resistance. Most mineral oils and some synthetics are made artificially thick at high temp by the addition of polymers. The polymers expand as they get hotter, so the oil gets thicker. This isn't good as polymers collapse and get "chopped up" when put under a lot of load/pressure by bearings, flat tappet cams and gears. The oil company may claim it uses shear stable polymers, and the more expensive polymers are more shear stable, but all polymers shear no matter how good they are.

Its difficult to get this sort of info from the oil companies but sometimes the tech guys will let it out to you if you phone them. Mobil 1 5W/50 has a viscosity of 17.3. The after shear viscosity drops just a little to 16.8 indicating there are no polymers present and the base fluid is very high quality and stable. Mobil 1 0W/40 likewise is 14.0 and falls to 13.4 after shear. 10W/30 is 10.0 and falls to 9.5 after shear. These are all very good numbers.

Not so good are oils that start out at say 18.0 and after shear fall to 13.0, or start out at 14.0 and after shear are down to 9.0. Oils like this tend to get worse with use, so as it gets older the worse it performs under pressure. What generally saves it though is that poor base fluids like this also generally have high evaporation rates so as these oils get older they burn off the lighter fractions and leave behind the heavy tars. During oil testing these oils finish the 64 hour test looking like molasses.

The Noack number indicates the evaporation %. Good oils like Amsoil(probably the best available but hard to get in Australia) have evap down as low as 5-7.5%. Mobil 1 5W/50 and 10W/30 are good at 6.9%. Mobil 1 0W/40 is 10.5%. Thats too high to my thinking as I live out west where its hot and I can run all day at 140kph. Because I don't do any stop/start driving I only change the oil every 25,000 km, and I don't want to have to top the oil up and I don't want it thickening as it gets older. Most of the high performance European cars, except Ferrari/Maserati, are factory filled with Mobil 1 0W/40 so they don't see a Noack of 10.5% as an issue. Of course compared to a mineral or semi-synthetic with Noacks of 15-17% a Noack of 10.5% is pretty good.

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan, in the last year i've only done 10k in my awd..have been useing Magnatec at 5k intervals...was thinking of changing to Mobil 1 5-50 when i install my new performance motor soon,how often would you suggest i change it with the sort of k's i'm doing per annum, cheers Al.

Oil change intervals are always difficult to advise on. It depends so much on how often engine starts from cold or just warm, how much time in stop/start traffic, what your climate is like eg how often does it drop under about 15 deg, how often car runs for less than 10-15 min, and engine condition(engine with little wear oil lasts longer), how hard you work the engine with cold oil etc.

My general recommendation based on using Mobil 1 5W/50 or Amsoil 10W/40 is under the most severe conditions change every 10,000 km/8 months. Or under the best conditions change every 25,000km/12 months.

Something to remember when weighing up oil change periods is to remember that compared to a tank of fuel even a good quality synthetic oil and filter is about the same money. That said I believe in getting a dollar value out of every dollar, and maybe $2 for every $1 when I can. I've pulled my engines down with very high mileages, 400,000 km and the like, and bore and bearing wear has been minimal. In fact I've put them back together with the same bearings, just switched bearing halves top to bottom, run the hone through the bores and fitted new rings. These weren't Magna engines, but having recently looked inside a 3.5 and a 3.8 they looked quite tough to me.

Sorry, forgot to add, do not to run new engine in on synthetic. Use mineral oil otherwise rings won't bed in.

Cheers,
Alan

Thanks for that Alan.

nice info there alan.
my engine has done 180,000kms
and i use Nulon 15W-40, with oil/filter changes at every 5000kms or less.
allways, let the engine warm up before driving, and if im in a hurry and my engine is stone cold, i at least let it run for a minute, to get the oil circulating, and never thrash the engine when cold.
however i do get a ticking from the engine when first start up, when cold, but it will disapear within a minute.
would you say the oil im using is too thick, 10W-40 a better option?

Oil change intervals are always difficult to advise on. It depends so much on how often engine starts from cold or just warm, how much time in stop/start traffic, what your climate is like eg how often does it drop under about 15 deg, how often car runs for less than 10-15 min, and engine condition(engine with little wear oil lasts longer), how hard you work the engine with cold oil etc.

My general recommendation based on using Mobil 1 5W/50 or Amsoil 10W/40 is under the most severe conditions change every 10,000 km/8 months. Or under the best conditions change every 25,000km/12 months.

Something to remember when weighing up oil change periods is to remember that compared to a tank of fuel even a good quality synthetic oil and filter is about the same money. That said I believe in getting a dollar value out of every dollar, and maybe $2 for every $1 when I can. I've pulled my engines down with very high mileages, 400,000 km and the like, and bore and bearing wear has been minimal. In fact I've put them back together with the same bearings, just switched bearing halves top to bottom, run the hone through the bores and fitted new rings. These weren't Magna engines, but having recently looked inside a 3.5 and a 3.8 they looked quite tough to me.

Sorry, forgot to add, do not to run new engine in on synthetic. Use mineral oil otherwise rings won't bed in.

Cheers,
Alan
Alan, I would have to say after reading most of your posts, you sound like a pretty knowledgeable fellow, but oil changes 25,000kms is simply too long, regardless of how the car is used. 10,000kms should be the limit even for a car that gets driven constantly on the highway. Of course this is also my opinion.

nice info there alan.
my engine has done 180,000kms
and i use Nulon 15W-40, with oil/filter changes at every 5000kms or less.
allways, let the engine warm up before driving, and if im in a hurry and my engine is stone cold, i at least let it run for a minute, to get the oil circulating, and never thrash the engine when cold.
however i do get a ticking from the engine when first start up, when cold, but it will disapear within a minute.
would you say the oil im using is too thick, 10W-40 a better option?

OK several things here.

First it is a mistake to let the engine warm up before driving off. That just slows up the engine getting up to temp. As soon as it starts drive off. Don't thrash it though, just moderate throttle and revs.

Second, oil pumps are only pumping a low volume and low pressure at idle. You want the engine at 2,000-2,500 rpm as soon as possible after starting to get the oil moving.

Third, lifter noise could be due to many things but most likely its taking a bit of time to get the oil up to them. That can be due to engine not been run for several hours, lifters getting a bit worn, engine revs too low to move oil quickly, possibly oil too thick(probably not with what you are using though).

The other possibility for lifter noise is worn valve guides(probably not likely with your car) and injectors clacking can sound worse when the engine's cold too, and can be mistaken for lifters.

Cheers,
Alan

OK several things here.

First it is a mistake to let the engine warm up before driving off. That just slows up the engine getting up to temp. As soon as it starts drive off. Don't thrash it though, just moderate throttle and revs.

Second, oil pumps are only pumping a low volume and low pressure at idle. You want the engine at 2,000-2,500 rpm as soon as possible after starting to get the oil moving.

Third, lifter noise could be due to many things but most likely its taking a bit of time to get the oil up to them. That can be due to engine not been run for several hours, lifters getting a bit worn, engine revs too low to move oil quickly, possibly oil too thick(probably not with what you are using though).

The other possibility for lifter noise is worn valve guides(probably not likely with your car) and injectors clacking can sound worse when the engine's cold too, and can be mistaken for lifters.

Cheers,
Alan
Again Alan, I have to disagree. 90% of engine wear occurs at start up. It is recommended to let the engine build a bit of oil pressure before taking off. Usually a 1-2 minute warm up is ideal to let the oil move around a bit inside the engine.

Again Alan, I have to disagree. 90% of engine wear occurs at start up. It is recommended to let the engine build a bit of oil pressure before taking off. Usually a 1-2 minute warm up is ideal to let the oil move around a bit inside the engine.

I do and prefer Alans theory!

Alan, I would have to say after reading most of your posts, you sound like a pretty knowledgeable fellow, but oil changes 25,000kms is simply too long, regardless of how the car is used. 10,000kms should be the limit even for a car that gets driven constantly on the highway. Of course this is also my opinion.

If you are talking mineral oil then I consider 10,000km the absolute limit for a new engine that doesn't do many cold starts and mostly no stop/start driving and idling. If the engine has a bit of age then 7,500 is safer. For stop/start driving and idling type operation then about 5,000 is the limit.

However a good quality synthetic like Mobil 1 and Amsoil is a completely different category of product. The base fluid doesn't break down like mineral oil base. What eventually happens is that the additive package gets used up so before that happens the oil needs to be changed. Big operators like transport, mining, airlines cannot afford to lose expensive engines(millions in the case of jet engines) and have equipment out of use from poor maintenance. They base their oil changes on oil monitoring. So they regularly send a sample off to the lab and you will find some operators getting a years running and more between changes.

I too am a skeptic, and when Mobil began making what I and a lot of other knowledgeable tuners though was simply outrageous claims about oil change intervals it put me off their product. However in time I got to see inside very high mileage engines that had long change intervals, and I made contact with some big transport operators using synthetic and the lack of engine wear changed my hardheadedness.

That's a long time ago now and since then I've personally run my engines, and I work them quite hard, 400,000 km and still had machine marks visible. At 400,000 I just reversed the bearings, give the cylinders a light hone to help the rings bed and fitted new rings. Even at 400,000 the oil consumption was less than 1.5 ltrs between oil changes.

I know what Amsoil 10W/40 and Mobil 1 5W/50 and 15W/50 works like for me, and 25,000km is well inside the window of full protection. (Graham uses a Mobil 1 not available through the usual channels that is close to a 10W/40 grade and he runs 25,000 km change intervals too). I am quite unimpressed by some other synthetics from what we observed during dyno pulls, but have no real knowledge of their long term stability. We were only looking for a HP advantage without engine failure, or excessive wear, ring sticking, oil consumption etc in 24 hour race engines.

Cheers,
Alan

Again Alan, I have to disagree. 90% of engine wear occurs at start up. It is recommended to let the engine build a bit of oil pressure before taking off. Usually a 1-2 minute warm up is ideal to let the oil move around a bit inside the engine.

90% of engine wear does not occur at start up. Most cylinder wear occurs in the first 15 min after startup. Idling the engine just adds to that high wear warm-up time.

If the engine has regular use an oil film remains to protect cam, lifters, bearings etc. Increasing the warm up period means more time on rich fuel mix, so more fuel into sump and more oil dilution and acid. Plus the low rpm means very little oil throw up the cylinders to lube the bores, and very little oil flow to valve gear.

You say "It is recommended to let the engine build a bit of oil pressure before taking off."

Who recommends that?

Oil pressure builds almost instantly.

Cheers,
Alan

Exactly what i do. Start up and drive away but usually there's 30 seconds between starting up and driving away as i buckle up, set my ipod, etc. Best way to "warm up" an engine is to drive it sedately for the first few mins.

90% of engine wear does not occur at start up. Most cylinder wear occurs in the first 15 min after startup. Idling the engine just adds to that high wear warm-up time.

If the engine has regular use an oil film remains to protect cam, lifters, bearings etc. Increasing the warm up period means more time on rich fuel mix, so more fuel into sump and more oil dilution and acid. Plus the low rpm means very little oil throw up the cylinders to lube the bores, and very little oil flow to valve gear.

You say "It is recommended to let the engine build a bit of oil pressure before taking off."

Who recommends that?

Oil pressure builds almost instantly.

Cheers,
Alan
it feels wrong to just start the car and drive off, all the oil has drained to the bottom of the pan, and is not on the moving parts, you at least want some oil to be moving again.
i dont let the engine go to normal operating temp before i drive, but i do like it to warm up a little.
you were talking about how engines have such small tolerances, well engines are made of metals, which expand, the engine was designed to run at its set opterating temperature.
so when the engine is hot, all the components change size and expand,
when they are cold they are smaller and could lead to extra ware on the components.


after your car has been off for a few hours, take off the oil filler cap and start the car, you should be able to see the rocker arms ect, you will not get any oil splashing out, for at least a minute.
i was courious one day how long it took for the oil to reach the heads, and even when i noticed the oil comming to the top, it was very minimal, and slowly started to build up, which then i had to place the cap back on to stop it from all comming out. this is showing how the oil pressure is not there, and needs to build up.
as far as the tapping, my mate thinks its disapearing when the oil finally gets to the heads, which takes about the same amount of time to do, granted its not a brand new engine so the classic tapping magna engine is to be expected.

dad had a pajero 3.0L engine, allways tried to warm it up before driving, very frequent oil changes, it well over 300,000kms, with no engine noise, no smoke, didnt use any oil.
same for my old 3.0L engine in my magna, 285,000kms with some engine noise, but it was like that when i got it, as the preious owner was a little slack on their servicing

90% of engine wear does not occur at start up. Most cylinder wear occurs in the first 15 min after startup. Idling the engine just adds to that high wear warm-up time.

If the engine has regular use an oil film remains to protect cam, lifters, bearings etc. Increasing the warm up period means more time on rich fuel mix, so more fuel into sump and more oil dilution and acid. Plus the low rpm means very little oil throw up the cylinders to lube the bores, and very little oil flow to valve gear.

You say "It is recommended to let the engine build a bit of oil pressure before taking off."

Who recommends that?

Oil pressure builds almost instantly.

Cheers,
Alan


interesting to note that my mates citroen handbook states that the car does not need a warm up period and that citroen recommends that long idle periods be avoided and immediate driving upon startup is recommended....

cant remember exact wording but its along those lines.. i was amazed to read this as i was always bought up being told it is best to let a cold engine idle for a few minutes before driving it..

can possibly scan this page if i anyone is interested and i can get my hands on it....

now that car is designed to operate in pretty cold weather... so to me thats really saying something....

interesting to note that my mates citroen handbook states that the car does not need a warm up period and that citroen recommends that long idle periods be avoided and immediate driving upon startup is recommended....

cant remember exact wording but its along those lines.. i was amazed to read this as i was always bought up being told it is best to let a cold engine idle for a few minutes before driving it..

can possibly scan this page if i anyone is interested and i can get my hands on it....

now that car is designed to operate in pretty cold weather... so to me thats really saying something....

lol mabey they just want you to buy a new car off them sooner lol

lol mabey they just want you to buy a new car off them sooner lol

probably!
:dancin:

interesting to note that my mates citroen handbook states that the car does not need a warm up period and that citroen recommends that long idle periods be avoided and immediate driving upon startup is recommended....

cant remember exact wording but its along those lines.. i was amazed to read this as i was always bought up being told it is best to let a cold engine idle for a few minutes before driving it..

can possibly scan this page if i anyone is interested and i can get my hands on it....

now that car is designed to operate in pretty cold weather... so to me thats really saying something....
Citroens' are well known for their reliability too. Oh wait, no they're not. :facejump:

Citroens' are well known for their reliability too. Oh wait, no they're not. :facejump:

point taken :D

in saying that... the car im talking about has done 240,000kms now (its not even that old... 2002 model).... and has been a very good car

in saything that... id never buy a citroen in my life! lol

it feels wrong to just start the car and drive off, all the oil has drained to the bottom of the pan, and is not on the moving parts, you at least want some oil to be moving again.

The engine is still running whether your driving or not though, driving it straight from cold and getting the oil pump going will get the oil circulated faster than sitting there at idle

it feels wrong to just start the car and drive off, all the oil has drained to the bottom of the pan, and is not on the moving parts, you at least want some oil to be moving again.
i dont let the engine go to normal operating temp before i drive, but i do like it to warm up a little.
you were talking about how engines have such small tolerances, well engines are made of metals, which expand, the engine was designed to run at its set opterating temperature.
so when the engine is hot, all the components change size and expand,
when they are cold they are smaller and could lead to extra ware on the components.


after your car has been off for a few hours, take off the oil filler cap and start the car, you should be able to see the rocker arms ect, you will not get any oil splashing out, for at least a minute.
i was courious one day how long it took for the oil to reach the heads, and even when i noticed the oil comming to the top, it was very minimal, and slowly started to build up, which then i had to place the cap back on to stop it from all comming out. this is showing how the oil pressure is not there, and needs to build up.


So are you saying that cold components wear more than hot ones? and that after they expand engine parts wear less?

How is valve train wear related to how long the engine sits still before you take off? The loads/wear on the cams, rockers etc aren't greater when the car starts moving. The head is last in line to get oil, so until the main gallery feeding the bearings fills/pressures up there is little flow to the head.

The reason for driving off asap is to get the bores, rings and pistons up to heat asap, and to get heat into the oil asap. Oil lubes best above 70 deg C up to about 110 deg C. Below 70 it does a very poor job of keeping parts separated. The extra revs from driving also throw oil into the cylinders to get some lube up to the rings and top of the cylinder.

Those who want to live in the past when cars had carbys and chokes and needed a warm up to make jerk free/stall free driving possible can do so. Back then you had to change the oil every 1,000 mile too because it was so diluted/contaminated by all the fuel that got past the rings when the choke was pulled on.

Cheers,
Alan

alot of owners manuals warn against idling for extended periods and state that it is best to drive straight away

i like to wait about 30 seconds to ensure good flow

alot of owners manuals warn against idling for extended periods and state that it is best to drive straight away

i like to wait about 30 seconds to ensure good flow

All car manufacturers and oil tech departments will tell you the same thing.

Engine wear is much higher in stop/start traffic and the oil and filter need changing more frequently, from excess idling.

When idling oil pump flow is poor and pressure low. Also there is no pressure from combustion to push the rings against the cylinder wall to seal effectively. This gives rise to bore glazing/polishing and heavy blow-by that dilutes/wrecks the oil with water and acid, and also fuel if the engine isn't at operating temp.

Some claim their engines don't use any oil. That is utter rubbish, all engines use some oil. The level on the dipstick may not have dropped but that shows that the oil has burned off has been replaced by other nasties that have got down past the rings. Give the engine a hard workout though for several hours and the oil will get up to temp and boil off quite a lot of those contaminants and suddenly the oil level drops 1 ltr in 500-600km.

Cheers,
Alan

All car manufacturers and oil tech departments will tell you the same thing.

Engine wear is much higher in stop/start traffic and the oil and filter need changing more frequently, from excess idling.

When idling oil pump flow is poor and pressure low. Also there is no pressure from combustion to push the rings against the cylinder wall to seal effectively. This gives rise to bore glazing/polishing and heavy blow-by that dilutes/wrecks the oil with water and acid, and also fuel if the engine isn't at operating temp.

Some claim their engines don't use any oil. That is utter rubbish, all engines use some oil. The level on the dipstick may not have dropped but that shows that the oil has burned off has been replaced by other nasties that have got down past the rings. Give the engine a hard workout though for several hours and the oil will get up to temp and boil off quite a lot of those contaminants and suddenly the oil level drops 1 ltr in 500-600km.

Cheers,
Alan


As above, but with a little more explaination

If you are running semi synth or mineral oil, your oil level will generall not change/change only a little bit because the hot moisture will mix into the oil, While Oil will not mix with water, hot oil and hot steam/water will mix a little. This then leads to another issue as the blow by contains sulphur, mix this with water and you end up with h2so4 or sulphuric acid. This does mix with water and is the main culprit in bearing wear etc.

An engine at idle, as above will not have sufficient compression to push the rings against the bores and will cause glazing etc BUT also think about a car cruising at a lazy 60kmh at low revs, the odo is turning and clocking up miles. The same car, sitting in traffic for extended time is still causing similar if not worse wear but there is no record of it. THis is in part why a car that has been in the country is a more honest car in so far as mileage goes than the car in the city sitting in traffice for extended times.

With the post about taking your oil cap off for a minute, get your rocker rails cleaned out asap, when you take your oil cap off in a third gen, you should get a spray of oil almost instantly. If not you have issues that need fixing

my perspective is that i like my oil galleries to be full of oil before i get moving also like to listen for any new noises

30 secs aint long anyways: find a mint, select a track, check mirrors, belt up, switch on headlights...go

Alan/Mal - another question.

Mal has said "If you are running semi synth or mineral oil, your oil level will generall not change/change only a little bit because the hot moisture will mix into the oil"

This does not happen with Full Synth oils?

I'd say literally getting in the car, starting, and driving off a fraction of a second after its started can't be good for it either - I have seen people do that. I would let it run for a few seconds at least. 5w-40 should be okay for the 6g72, 6g74, & 6g75 as its one of the oils recommended by the oil recommendation guide on the Nulon website. I have to admit I'm quite impressed with Nulon's other products so thought I'd give the oil a try. If you select a TF on the recommendation site it actually excludes their high end 5w-30 and 5w-40, but thats more due to taking in to account a worn engine. If the engine has been well maintained, then there is no reason why you can't run it, also considering its recommended for the 6g72 in the TH.

I guess the next stage of the debate - even though its been covered before somewhat, is using an oil stabiliser. The one I am questioning about is this one:
http://www.lucasoil.com.au/content/view/12/66/
Which I haven't actually seen in the shops!

Then there's Nulon Worn engine treatment/performance engine treatment, auto transmission treatment, power steering treatment, ESL (not a thickener, a seal rejuvinator!), and that german moly-sulphide stuff which is a friction reducer as well (apparently not needed with the nulon AAT oils, which work on the same principal and not PTFE like the peformance/worn engine treatments).

An ultimate oil treatment, going by product claims, would be the nulon 5w-40 (the fully synthetic one, $59.95) + nulon performance engine treatment + esl (only required say every 2 years), lucas synthetic oil stabiliser.

Or for other oils without the moly base, the same as above but with the moly additive.

The Performance engine treatment is supposed to reduce friction, but particularly startup friction.

The above is more of a question than a factual statement, its just good to hear peoples arguments for and against! - and they are valid points for this thread!

The engine is still running whether your driving or not though, driving it straight from cold and getting the oil pump going will get the oil circulated faster than sitting there at idle
but if there is no oil to begin with, higher RPM means the components have moved more times in the same amount of time, all im saying is, have had one engine done well over 300,000kms with zero problems, and another with 280,000kms and still running strong.
were ive seen/herd of others doing way less than this, clearly im doing somthing right

With the post about taking your oil cap off for a minute, get your rocker rails cleaned out asap, when you take your oil cap off in a third gen, you should get a spray of oil almost instantly. If not you have issues that need fixing

ok i think i may have exadurated a little, but around 30 seconds it will be at full spray,
i cant see how you could expect a full blast, instantly, when an engine that has not been used overnight, with the oil drained into its sump
my other engine did this too, and owned it for a few years with no issues?
does anyone else have any experience with their engines?

ok i think i may have exadurated a little, but around 30 seconds it will be at full spray,
i cant see how you could expect a full blast, instantly, when an engine that has not been used overnight, with the oil drained into its sump
my other engine did this too, and owned it for a few years with no issues?
does anyone else have any experience with their engines?

I always leave my car running for a minute or so, only because I'm doing something at the time, like checking mirrors etc... However when it comes to oil changes, when in doubt, change your oil frequently, use a good quality oil filter, and also change/clean your air filter.

but if there is no oil to begin with, higher RPM means the components have moved more times in the same amount of time, all im saying is, have had one engine done well over 300,000kms with zero problems, and another with 280,000kms and still running strong.
were ive seen/herd of others doing way less than this, clearly im doing somthing right

There is oil there to begin with. Haven't you ever pulled an engine down, or had the rocker covers off?

Haven't you been reading my posts? I've done 400,000 km and not needed a rebore or bearing replacement, just a hone for the rings to bed in. Not just on one engine either.

Have you actually pulled any of your engines down to measure the wear?

Cheers,
Alan

There is oil there to begin with. Haven't you ever pulled an engine down, or had the rocker covers off?

Haven't you been reading my posts? I've done 400,000 km and not needed a rebore or bearing replacement, just a hone for the rings to bed in. Not just on one engine either.

Have you actually pulled any of your engines down to measure the wear?

Cheers,
Alan

no need to be a smart ass about it, im on this fourm to learn not talk down to ppl
i have pulled down an engine actually, but i have yet to examin the bottom end.
just saying, starting your engine and driving off instantly goes against everything ive ever been told, im just trying to look into your theory here, hense this discussion in a discussion fourm

I always leave my car running for a minute or so, only because I'm doing something at the time, like checking mirrors etc... However when it comes to oil changes, when in doubt, change your oil frequently, use a good quality oil filter, and also change/clean your air filter.

yep, change oil/filter every 5000kms and not using the cheap stuff

no need to be a smart ass about it, im on this fourm to learn not talk down to ppl
i have pulled down an engine actually, but i have yet to examin the bottom end.
just saying, starting your engine and driving off instantly goes against everything ive ever been told, im just trying to look into your theory here, hense this discussion in a discussion fourm

I dont think Alan was being a smart ass about it, just this discussion on wether or not driving straight away is bad on an engine is going in circles.

Bottom line for mine is driving away instantly is no good for an engine because of the different tolerances of the metals in the block. Cast iron will expand at a different rate to aluminum which will be different again to steel. Also, high load on a cold engine is not good, neither is high RPM.

Alan > :headbange o.p. > :fruitcake :rofleek:

Has anyone noticed the difference in driving off straight away v/s letting it idle for 30 or so seconds before driving off?

To me driving off straight away the engine sounds harsher whilst letting it idle for a few seconds it is that much smoother.

This holds true for me for starting the car first thing in the mornings. If the engine is warm to start with, the harshness is much less and it settles once the engine is up to operating temperatures.

Oil related?

Bottom line for mine is driving away instantly is no good for an engine because of the different tolerances of the metals in the block. Cast iron will expand at a different rate to aluminum which will be different again to steel. Also, high load on a cold engine is not good, neither is high RPM.
totally agree with you there mate

Which is what I think Alan is basically stating.

Since there are different tolerances, at idle your piston rings do not seal effectively, so getting the engine up to temp asap is the best thing for it. Not saying to thrash it, but drive it sedately.

Which to me still makes more sense than people who warm up their car, then trash it down the street - at which point in idling up did you warm up your diff/gearbox?

Turbo cars are slightly more sensitive as to warm up/cool down procedures - as are rotaries.

I just think there are to many threads on this forum were people jump down each others throat to much for no reason

no need to be a smart ass about it, im on this fourm to learn not talk down to ppl
i have pulled down an engine actually, but i have yet to examin the bottom end.
just saying, starting your engine and driving off instantly goes against everything ive ever been told, im just trying to look into your theory here, hense this discussion in a discussion fourm

I'm not talking down to anyone. You say you are on the forum to learn, well that's fine but learning means listening and asking questions, and a willingness to take new ideas on board.

I've already stated that the best course is to drive off after the engine starts without sitting there idling for minutes. I also made it clear not to rev the engine, accelerate hard etc. because oil doesn't lube well until it gets to 70 deg. The idea is to get the engine and oil up to temp asap.

You seem to think that somehow it takes minutes to get oil moving. I asked if you had seen in an engine because surely you observed all the oil puddling around. That oil sitting there will lube the cam in most OHC engines long before oil gets pumped there after startup. The cam, rockers etc aren't the important thing anyway. The critical parts most prone to cold wear due to rich fuel mix, lack of oil and cold oil are the cylinders and rings. Their condition affects long term engine performance more than anything else (except the condition of the ex valves/seats, and they are by comparison with bores and rings easy and cheap to recondition anyway).

I've already stated the idea of running an engine to warm it up before driving off goes back to the days of poorly tuned cars with carburettors, points in distributors etc. Most couldn't be driven straight off without jerking, stalling etc. In that era oil was changed every 1,000 mile and rings and cylinders were unlikely to be in good shape at 100,000 miles. Lots of engines needed reconditioning at 60,000 miles and on the way needed a pint of oil every 500 miles.

You seem to be taking offense at the idea of a belief of yours being wrong. You won't find any car manufacturer, oil company, or knowledgeable experienced professional engine builder/developer that advises idling for minutes after startup. Whether you accept that basic truth is up to you. However remember whether you accept it or not does not alter the facts.

I don't intend to offend anyone. However I will not back away from stating what is correct to appease those who want to hold onto some pet idea/theory that's incorrect. Plus I think with 50 years experience engineering/developing a wide variety of engines and at my age, probably old enough to be your grandfather/great grandfather I could expect a little respect.

Cheers,
Alan

Bottom line for mine is driving away instantly is no good for an engine because of the different tolerances of the metals in the block. Cast iron will expand at a different rate to aluminum which will be different again to steel. Also, high load on a cold engine is not good, neither is high RPM.

The best course as we do for race engines and standby gen sets is to preheat the engine, oil and water before startup.

I also made it clear not to rev the engine, accelerate hard etc. because oil doesn't lube well until it gets to 70 deg. The idea is to get the engine and oil up to temp asap. Sitting there idling doesn't achieve that.

Cheers,
Alan

The best course as we do for race engines and standby gen sets is to preheat the engine, oil and water before startup.

I also made it clear not to rev the engine, accelerate hard etc. because oil doesn't lube well until it gets to 70 deg. The idea is to get the engine and oil up to temp asap. Sitting there idling doesn't achieve that.

Cheers,
Alan

Thats what the performance engine treatment PTFE (primarily Teflon based) I 'asked' about is meant for, it supposedly significantly reduces startup friction. The Molybdenum disulphide (disulfide to the poor spelling Yanks) additive (used in nulon AAT oil) reduces temperature when the engine is hot, and is supposed to work as a very efficient friction reduces up to and beyond 350C.

Thats what the performance engine treatment PTFE (primarily Teflon based) I 'asked' about is meant for, it supposedly significantly reduces startup friction. The Molybdenum disulphide (disulfide to the poor spelling Yanks) additive (used in nulon AAT oil) reduces temperature when the engine is hot, and is supposed to work as a very efficient friction reduces up to and beyond 350C.

You mean like slick 50 etc?,teflon was NEVER meant to see the inside of an engine,it clogs oil filter etc and leaves baked on deposits,not good stuff

You mean like slick 50 etc?,teflon was NEVER meant to see the inside of an engine,it clogs oil filter etc and leaves baked on deposits,not good stuff

I mean this product:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=Performance_Engine_Treatm ent

And this product:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=Worn_Engine_Treatment

I mean this product:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=Performance_Engine_Treatm ent

And this product:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=Worn_Engine_Treatment

Yep,that the stuff,same as slick 50 etc,No doubt it will make a engine slippery as a car salesman if it can get to the vitals and who knows for how long,but like i said,never made to be in an engine,fry pans etc yes,engines no,clogs galleries etc over time and clogs filters like i said,plenty on the subject to read about on the net

I have been reading a site called CARBIBLES.com - which is kinda "automotive engineering 101" and I reckon its info is pretty good basic intro to how the various systems and components making up our vehicles work.

It has a page on "Additives" which might make interesting reading...... basically the author doesn't recommend additives, as most oils etc already contain the compounds which the additives are said to be based on. Also, in USA several additive companies have been restricted and made to pay damages for extravagent claims which could not be substantiated.

im not a fan of additives in all but the most dire cases... ie oil flushing on a sludged motor in order to maybe get the customer another year out of their defunct engine

the best case ive ever seen on a car was an ol datto 120y (30 years old at the time).... tore it down and reconned it to find that there wasnt even a lip on the bores... original spec rings etc.

that thing had a life of warming up for 10 mins and driving 2km to the shops twice a week, with regular oil changes and once a month it would see a run from northam to perth

Yep,that the stuff,same as slick 50 etc,No doubt it will make a engine slippery as a car salesman if it can get to the vitals and who knows for how long,but like i said,never made to be in an engine,fry pans etc yes,engines no,clogs galleries etc over time and clogs filters like i said,plenty on the subject to read about on the net

I'd believe that for the products listed in the article on carbible, considering the size of the PTFE they were referring to (larger than 20 microns). In the article it says oil filters can filter to particles down to 20 microns in size. The Nulon products are stated (E20 being performance engine treatment):

Nulon E20 contains PTFE particles ranging from sub-micron in size up to several micronshttp://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=Performance_Engine_Treatm ent

(The product is a nice blue colour :))!

With the information on the page when you click 'detailed information'.

The article on the carbible website clearly states any particle smaller than 20 microns isn't filtered by the oil filter, meaning the submicron (less than 1 micron) and even up to the few micron as stated on the nulon site (4 or 5 micron) could easily pass through the filter. The product information also states that its the sub-micron teflon particles that impregnate friction surfaces, which is a different claim than the other manufacturers. There's friction on the surface due to uneveness in the metal - and if you think thats bull then you're misinformed.

A CPU heatsink is a good example of this. You should always use thermal paste as the metail surfaces on the heatsink and cpu are not flat. If you do not use a thermal paste your CPU will still overheat under load (sometimes even under normal conditions) even with the cpu heatsink. This is true even for the perfectly polished contact surfaces such as found on the top end zalman fans (they are a perfect copper mirror, perfectly flat) and if you polish the surface of the cpu to a 'perfect' mirror (I forget the name).

Despite polular belief you should uses as little thermal paste as possible (as its just there to fill the microscopic gaps) and use a good new generation one. The ones that you generally find in stores aren't good (generic brands like Unick), and even silver based ones such as Artic silver are no longer the best and can conduct electricity (which can be very bad if you use too much). My point is, the best ones work because they fill the gaps in what seems a perfectly polish mirror. The metal parts inside your engine aren't mirrors either, if you looked at it under a microscope you'd find all surfaces with pitting etc. The teflon in these products is meant to get trapped in those gaps, and come in contact with the moving parts instead of the walls of the gaps. The main problem with the additives mentioned on carbible is they use large teflon particles, that do get trapped in the filter, and are too big to get trapped in the needed areas. Its the same principle as getting a floor wet, the water fills the gaps in the surface of the tiles (or other surface) reducing friction and making it slippery!

Being an Australian company and the product being manufactured in Australia, it would have to meet the strict Australian standards. Imported products don't have to meet these standard (or seemingly any standards from half the stuff I've seen around). So, you're saying all you'd have to do is spend $12 on a bottle, run it for a month, then take Nulon for court for false claims and damaging your engine through clogging your filter? Easy way to make a few million ;)

The article also doesn't cover Molybdenum Disulphide

I mean this product:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=Performance_Engine_Treatm ent

And this product:
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=Worn_Engine_Treatment
Both these products you have linked have PTFE Teflon in them.

I remember when I was a young fella & Nulon first came out, they drove a car around Australia with no oil in it after being treated with the Nulon additive. I used to live in Maryborough & remember going to see it the day it came through as that was BIG news for Maryborough at the time.

id just like to remind ppl that in your magna you have no way of telling where your oil temps are at..


temp gauge in your magna is water temp.. water temps come up alot quicker than oil temps..so just because your gauge is at "normal" doesnt mean your oil has reached a good operating temp..

example for you from my evo with aftermarket water and oil temps... i watched my gauges in my car closely this morning to see what hits "normal" at what point in time...

cold start.... after about about 5mins of driving water temps hit 85degress (where my evo sits 95% of the time on the street) and my standard dash temp gauge is at "normal"... (FYI my TH takes nearly the exact same amount of time to get to normal on its factory water temp gauge aswell)

without the oil temp guage id presume the car has reached temp. and is now ready for a bit of a harder time..

glance across at my oil temps.. 48degress.....

after 12mins of softer driving my oil hits 75degress... then after about 15-20mins it reaches its normal temp of 85deg...

so guys just because your cars temp guage has hit normal doesnt mean your oil has come up to a safe temp to start giving the car a hard time....

further to this i agree with mal and alan that idle would take forever to bring up the oil to good temp... if it takes me 12mins of driving to get it to 75degress, it must take like 25mins at idle to do the same...

im with alan, start the car, put your seatbelt on and drive off is my opinion on this one... and dont give the car a hard time for like 10-15mins.... or even better, ppl who really cant wait to plant there foot into it, buy an oil temp guage :D

cheers

**pics added... left is oil temp, centre is water temp..

5mins driving:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3504/coldl.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coldl.jpg)

20mins driving (this is my "normal temps that i see 95% on the street.. only gets higher than this if hard on street or during track work)

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4817/optemp.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=optemp.jpg)

also, just for your info... on the track water temp hardly moves no matter what.. might get up to around 90deg but thats.. oil on the other hand hits about 110-115deg... just shows how much harder the oil has to work under track conditions....

nice read there mate

Both these products you have linked have PTFE Teflon in them.

I remember when I was a young fella & Nulon first came out, they drove a car around Australia with no oil in it after being treated with the Nulon additive. I used to live in Maryborough & remember going to see it the day it came through as that was BIG news for Maryborough at the time.

I remember reading about that, its a bit more impressive than the examples gave in the carbible guide. The examples there where it says it doesn't make a different were engines at idle without load for a short period, not a full size car driven at highway speeds (including stop/start, hills etc) like the Nulon example. I'm sure with their example it would have had to have been examined by the proper authorities to ensure they weren't conning the public.

If your oil got to the temperature where the teflon melts I'd be much more worried about the oil burning and damaging the engine.

id just like to remind ppl that in your magna you have no way of telling where your oil temps are at..


temp gauge in your magna is water temp.. water temps come up alot quicker than oil temps..so just because your gauge is at "normal" doesnt mean your oil has reached a good operating temp..

example for you from my evo with aftermarket water and oil temps... i watched my gauges in my car closely this morning to see what hits "normal" at what point in time...

cold start.... after about about 5mins of driving water temps hit 85degress (where my evo sits 95% of the time on the street) and my standard dash temp gauge is at "normal"... (FYI my TH takes nearly the exact same amount of time to get to normal on its factory water temp gauge aswell)

without the oil temp guage id presume the car has reached temp. and is now ready for a bit of a harder time..

glance across at my oil temps.. 48degress.....

after 12mins of softer driving my oil hits 75degress... then after about 15-20mins it reaches its normal temp of 85deg...

so guys just because your cars temp guage has hit normal doesnt mean your oil has come up to a safe temp to start giving the car a hard time....

further to this i agree with mal and alan that idle would take forever to bring up the oil to good temp... if it takes me 12mins of driving to get it to 75degress, it must take like 25mins at idle to do the same...

im with alan, start the car, put your seatbelt on and drive off is my opinion on this one... and dont give the car a hard time for like 10-15mins.... or even better, ppl who really cant wait to plant there foot into it, buy an oil temp guage :D

cheers


also, just for your info... on the track water temp hardly moves no matter what.. might get up to around 90deg but thats.. oil on the other hand hits about 110-115deg... just shows how much harder the oil has to work under track conditions....

Thanks for that detail. Very useful info. Typically when being driven it takes about 1 min to get 4-5 deg sump temp. rise depending on whether the engine has tight or loose bearings , and perversely heavy oil tends to heat more quickly than the thin grades(due to higher pumping friction, more friction in bearings and poorer heat transfer rate).

I run my oil level about mid-way between high and low to speed warm-up. Incidentally Graham advocates running at the low mark. We originally did that in stock engine race classes, where oil surge wasn't a problem, to pick up HP by reducing windage losses.

On the subject of additives.
They are not necessarily bad, some are, but a total waste of money. Spend the money on a better quality oil. Get moving soon after the engine fires and keep revs around 2000-2500 as much as possible for first 5 min to get oil throw up the bores, but don't use much throttle and don't lug the engine.

The only time good oil needs extra help is when running in a new cam. Cam lube applied to the lobes or 140 hypoid gear oil on the lobes will ease break-in. To protect the CAT and pass many certification tests modern oil doesn't have much/any zinc or sulphur. Zinc in particular helps with cam/lifter lube.

Cheers,
Alan

The Performance engine treatment works well as a cold engine lubricant (effectively a lubricant), so for $12 extra per oil change its not an excessive amount to provide that little extra protection. I've seen power steering systems on friends car that undeniably quieten after using the Nulon Power steering treatment (after going through a few different brands of the correct spec oil trying to find one that worked) and also seen automatic transmissions become smooth after using the auto treatment. Actually it was on the same car, and about 2 months after both fluids were change.

There was also someone with an oldish Ford Laser that blew a bit of smoke - and it did receive on time servicing, where the Nulon Engine Stop Leak (not stop smoke, completely different) completely stopped the smoking issue after a week, not to mention its been running ever since (even after 2 oil changes I'd say by now) without smoking. These two things are the reason that got me on to the Performance Engine treatment, and yes I did know about the Teflon issue and filters, but thats only with low quality proucts that use large teflon 'chunks' sometimes over 50 micron in size (hence blocks the 20 micron filters) whereas the Nulon product is mostly below 1 micron.

I would never use an additive I wasn't sure about, and I certainly wouldn't use a product like slick50 where the 50 probably stands for 50 micron not 50 weight :)

I was always told that after i started my car, it was best to drive it straight away but softly for like 5 minutes....so that is what i do mostly, not that i know much about these things.

Also i have my oil services every 5,000kms, not sure what oil is being used but i am charged $180 to change my oil & filter & was told my oil was very good quality. At my next service i will ask them what oil is being put in. Then i will post it here so someone can tell me wether tis good. :)

I was always told that after i started my car, it was best to drive it straight away but softly for like 5 minutes....so that is what i do mostly, not that i know much about these things.

Also i have my oil services every 5,000kms, not sure what oil is being used but i am charged $180 to change my oil & filter & was told my oil was very good quality. At my next service i will ask them what oil is being put in. Then i will post it here so someone can tell me wether tis good. :)

Well, they're not likely to say 'the oil we use is crap, so you have to come back for regular services'. You can take your own oil there, as long as you trust the place enough that they don't keep your good oil themselves and give you the crap lot.

Have another mate who had a 2nd gen magna years ago, was clueless about local servicing places (as he was a student from singapore at the time, now an Australian resident), he was actually a mechanic but didn't have time to do it himself initially when he bought it, he replaced the sparkplugs with Denso Iridium's and took it to MIDAS, not only did they replace his brand new spark plugs with crappy standard ones, they flogged the oil that he provided then charged him for the oil they put in. When he questioned them they flatly lied and said the sparkies were old and needed replacing, and I was with him the whole time from when he put the sparkies in to driving to the place to get it serviced the same morning.

To cut a long story short, (and there are other examples like that above), you can't always trust certain places. It gets me wondering why MIDAS doesn't have RAA approval?...

Shalimar.

Good oil costs $50-60 (semi-sythn, or synthetic).

Filter costs around $30?

Time: 30minutes max.

Tools required: drip tray ($5)

Rag: Free

24mm socket + wrench: $30

Next service if you do it yourself is $125, from there on in its $90. Just a thought.

Shalimar.

Good oil costs $50-60 (semi-sythn, or synthetic).

Filter costs around $30?

Time: 30minutes max.

Tools required: drip tray ($5)

Rag: Free

24mm socket + wrench: $30

Next service if you do it yourself is $125, from there on in its $90. Just a thought.

I agree, learn to do your own oil change...buy your supplies when the stores have their 20% off sales and save even more....

I was always told that after i started my car, it was best to drive it straight away

This alone is good advice, starting the engine and leaving it idling for 10-15 mins is actually more damaging than driving it straight away. At idle in a cold engine, oil circulation is quite poor until the pump has come up to operating levels. Driving a car straight away with the engine moving between 800-2500rpm allows oil circulation to improve at a faster rate.

Shalimar.

Good oil costs $50-60 (semi-sythn, or synthetic).

Filter costs around $30?

Time: 30minutes max.

Tools required: drip tray ($5)

Rag: Free

24mm socket + wrench: $30

Next service if you do it yourself is $125, from there on in its $90. Just a thought.

Okay thank you for that Ers, :)

But i am afraid i am at the mercy of the mechanics....i dont know what to do. Whenever i get a flat tyre i have to call the nrma to change it for me, i tried once but i didnt have the strength to lift the spare wheel out of the boot, sheesh i couldnt even get the wheel bolts to move to undo the wheel. Sorry i am pretty clueless about the technical side of things. :redface:

But if you can recommend me a really good oil then i will buy it take it to the mechanics & if it is only 30 mins to do i can sit & watch while they do it, the bit where you sit you can actually see most everything they do. With the filter would it be best to buy that from mitsubishi or should i buy it elsewhere?

Thank you for helping. :)




he replaced the sparkplugs with Denso Iridium's and took it to MIDAS, not only did they replace his brand new spark plugs with crappy standard ones, they flogged the oil that he provided then charged him for the oil they put in. When he questioned them they flatly lied and said the sparkies were old and needed replacing, and I was with him the whole time from when he put the sparkies in to driving to the place to get it serviced the same morning

burfadel

Now you have me worried, i hope he is not doing that to me. :sick:

burfadel

Now you have me worried, i hope he is not doing that to me. :sick:

Finding a good mechanic is probably the most imporant thing, there's a Repco thats really close to where I am (actually its the closest garage to me) which are exceptionally good. Going with an RAA (NRMA/RACV or equivalent) approved mechanic is half the key, generally the good ones are. Going with a chain like Ultratune or Repco can be advantageous too, although out of the two I think Repco ones are better. These are independent places, but they do get trained at the same place (well Repco do anyway) and the last thing Repco or Ultratune would want is to get a bad name for themselves. I have heard of someone having problems with an Ultratune which resulted in a change of management at that particular place, however in general they are a safe choice (and I think Repco is probably safer again, but thats based on my experience with one particular place).

If you do servicing yourself, I'd definitely still take it to a good mechanic say, every second service. They'll pick up things that you'll miss, especially since they can hoist the car up and they know what to look for. If you get any parts replaced, its your right to ask to see the parts taken out. Probably one of the main things that people miss themselves are the CV boots etc, things that saving on service Labor isn't worth it when you consider the repair bill of those things if you end up doing damage to them!

Just buy a Ryco filter from Repco, shouldn't be more than $15. Any synthetic oil (say Penrite 10W-40, Mobil 1 5W-50, Castrol Magnatec) will be fine. Magnatec is like $30 for 5 liters.

Is Castor oil Magnatec fully synthetic? :)

Is Castor oil Magnatec fully synthetic? :)
Castor oil is actually a vegetable oil from a castor bean, but the Castrol stuff is semi-synthetic, which is fine for our Magna engines.

IMO castor oil would be better than magnacrap

IMO castor oil would be better than magnacrap
I'll bite... Why? :ninja:

Castor oil is actually a vegetable oil from a castor bean, but the Castrol stuff is semi-synthetic, which is fine for our Magna engines.

I know that :) its a dig at Castrol (particularly Magnatec), because Castrol not only sounds like castor oil, its a poison to the engine like ricin is to us which is made from the castor bean :D

Okay thank you for that Ers, :)

But i am afraid i am at the mercy of the mechanics....i dont know what to do. Whenever i get a flat tyre i have to call the nrma to change it for me, i tried once but i didnt have the strength to lift the spare wheel out of the boot, sheesh i couldnt even get the wheel bolts to move to undo the wheel. Sorry i am pretty clueless about the technical side of things. :redface:

But if you can recommend me a really good oil then i will buy it take it to the mechanics & if it is only 30 mins to do i can sit & watch while they do it, the bit where you sit you can actually see most everything they do. With the filter would it be best to buy that from mitsubishi or should i buy it elsewhere?

Thank you for helping. :)


burfadel

Now you have me worried, i hope he is not doing that to me. :sick:

Penrite HPR5, or Penrite HPR10 are what I currently use, and has been recommended by a few people.

Will be switching to a Penrite Synthetic soon.

Mobile 1 Synthetic is well liked by Alan J, he has more knowledge about this than most people on here.

I personally use Ryco filters.

If you really, really want - depending on your location, I can give you a hand with the basic service (oil, filter, air filter). Not really that hard to do.

ive had cars come thru work that the owners have insisted on using magnacrap
those (approx 20) were serviced religiously and on 6 of them (including my own car(previous car)) they all ended up with metal filings in the sump and a rumbling in the block at moderate revs when under light load

of course hpr40 helped to reduce the noise... and i will never recommend magnatec
and in the industry i am clearly not alone.

but each to their own....

ive had cars come thru work that the owners have insisted on using magnacrap
those (approx 20) were serviced religiously and on 6 of them (including my own car(previous car)) they all ended up with metal filings in the sump and a rumbling in the block at moderate revs when under light load

of course hpr40 helped to reduce the noise... and i will never recommend magnatec
and in the industry i am clearly not alone.

but each to their own....

so what you're saying is...it damages engines? i'm calling b. s. on this one!

the evidence looks clear to me.... you can call whatever you like.... but im never using it again

the evidence looks clear to me.... you can call whatever you like.... but im never using it again

Looking at this with an open mind...and considering the technical specification for MagnaTec is very similar to other competitive oils on the market (when comparing the same/similar specification characteristics) I also find it difficult to imagine that it will cause damage to engines under normal use. Surely in your case there would be other factors that would need to be considered other than just the oil by itself.

dad never uses magnatec, he used it once, said it was horrible never touched it again,
biggest gimmmic of an oil.

seeing as everyone has put there 2cents in. i'll put in mine

5-40 is fine for magna. i never warm my car up. it runs very well, not noisy, doesnt burn a drop. mind you only has 35'000 k's

i probably would warm my car up a little if i had to hit the highway/freeway straight away, but as soon as i pull out the garage, i pretty much run down hill for 3 k's, with basically no accelaration

after 12mins of softer driving my oil hits 75degress... then after about 15-20mins it reaches its normal temp of 85deg...

so guys just because your cars temp guage has hit normal doesnt mean your oil has come up to a safe temp to start giving the car a hard time....

Interesting thread and it's teaching me things (which is good). But a specific response to gremlin's comment above; it explains to me why my engine has the rev counter at around 2500-2600 @ 100kmh for around the first 15ish minutes when I drive to work in the morning, then it drops back to 2100-2200 for the rest of the drive. I've always though "ah, now the engine is at it's correct operating temperature" - good to see I'm on the right track.

Regards, Tony

Interesting thread and it's teaching me things (which is good). But a specific response to gremlin's comment above; it explains to me why my engine has the rev counter at around 2500-2600 @ 100kmh for around the first 15ish minutes when I drive to work in the morning, then it drops back to 2100-2200 for the rest of the drive. I've always though "ah, now the engine is at it's correct operating temperature" - good to see I'm on the right track.

Regards, Tony

Not neccesarily,more to do with the trans being warmed up and dropping in to overdrive,thats why the revs drop,but hopefully the engine is at optimum operating temp too

i've got magnatec in mine at the moment. First time i've used it, figured i'd try it... Cant say i've noticed any difference in performance / noise. Probably back to penrite next service. its less controversial, more tried and tested... I doubt magnatec will hurt my car in 7500kms...

Hmm... i was gonna use Castrol Magnatec in my next oil change tomorrow! Looks like I'll dump that and go try Mobil 1 5/50W instead. Looks like there's guys here with good feedback about Mobil 1 5/50W but none about Castrol Magnatec.

:facejump:

i've done nilly 20000'ks since i've brought my sports and i used magnatec, i'm nilly up to my 4th oil change and never had a problem with the oil

i've done nilly 20000'ks since i've brought my sports and i used magnatec, i'm nilly up to my 4th oil change and never had a problem with the oil15000kms on one sump of Magnetec (only let it go that long because it's only coming up to 6 months now most of it was interstate highways, about to change it) no problems none burnt either

15000kms on one sump of Magnetec (only let it go that long because it's only coming up to 6 months now most of it was interstate highways, about to change it) no problems none burnt either

i kinda do my oil change right on the 5000k mark , but 15000 thats insane.

Heh... no, no it's not. 6 months is the normal minor service interval anyway, and given the constant operating speeds the engine was operating under for Adelaide-Melbourne-Sydney-Gold Coast-Sydney-Sunshine Coast-Sydney-Melbourne-Adelaide... not a highly strung engine either, is it?

i kinda do my oil change right on the 5000k mark , but 15000 thats insane.

Depends on the driving, the service interval (for my TW) is 6 months or 15000km's? But I change mine every 7500km or so.

i kinda do my oil change right on the 5000k mark , but 15000 thats insane.

Depends on the driving, the service interval (for my TW) is 6 months or 15000km's? But I change mine every 7500km or so. Gives me something to do every 3-4 months.:facejump:

Couldn't get a Mobil 1 5/50W in time... so stuck with the Magnatec 10/40W for this servicing. I read through this entire thread and it seems like most guys here use a 10/50W oil. Which brands do you guys recommend? Semi-syn or full syn?

Seems like i can't find full syn 10/50W ones from autobarn, only 10/50W semi-syn Penrite ones. Also saw a Castrol Sports 10/60W (full syn) and Penrite 10/70W (full syn, what the hell?!?).

Couldn't get a Mobil 1 5/50W in time... so stuck with the Magnatec 10/40W for this servicing. I read through this entire thread and it seems like most guys here use a 10/50W oil. Which brands do you guys recommend? Semi-syn or full syn?

Seems like i can't find full syn 10/50W ones from autobarn, only 10/50W semi-syn Penrite ones. Also saw a Castrol Sports 10/60W (full syn) and Penrite 10/70W (full syn, what the hell?!?).

Go with Penrite HPR10,cant go wrong

Im currently running Penrite HPR5 in the "donkey" engine. Will probably change over to full synthetic once its got some more Kms up on it.

IVe read bits and pieces here, so im sorry if I repeat what someone has said in the past.

Gremlin is very right bout the first number of oil meaining next to nothing, in most Australia conditions. He is also very right about oil temps coming up alot slower than water temps. Ironically, the better oil you have, the slower it comes up to temp, but the better it is under hot track work.

I think you guys are over chaning you oil. Its not a bad thing, but, its a waste IMO considering most of you have pretty standard magnas. I service my sisters magna. LAst week I changed the oil after about 12,000km. The oil was Full Synth Valvoline, which, is only decent, ie, it has no Molly in it. Now, looking at the oil when it came out, it was very clean. Wouldnt supprise me If i could of pushed easily another 5,000km out of it. Now, I didnt get an oil analysis test done in the oil, but, I would of easily used it again, even in a hi performance car.

I believe that a decent synthetic oil should be able to easily last 15,000km in 90% of Magans on this forum. If you dont believe me, then get an oil analysis done on the virgin oil, and then the oil when it comes out, and see if its old, or still fresh.

The 5,000km oil change idea was pretty much developed for the old oil cooled turbos, where the oil would have a very hard time due to the huge heat cycles it had to go through. What are mitsubishis servicing specs ? From memory I think its 15.000km oil changes (this might be wrong, long time since i read the servicing book).

Just for the record, a few oils that I have loved over the years include Motul 300v, and Reline. Both have massive moly counts. Royal Purple is another fairly good oil. The new castrol Edge looks promising, and ive used it one a few occasions, seems very similar to Royal Purple in oil analysis, and, is cheap when on special.

u say sythetic oils need a change, at 15,000
wat about mineral oil?
i change mine every 5000 and its black

u say sythetic oils need a change, at 15,000
wat about mineral oil?
i change mine every 5000 and its black

Oils turning 'black' could be the detergents going black, might not mean that the oil is bad.

Which oil are you using? Is it thick when you drain it?

Ers is right. Black oil dosnt always mean the oil is bad. The inverse however is true, ie, a clean oil pretty much means the oil is good (for street cars, heat cycles can kill them with track work)

To be honest, im not sure how long a mineral oil would last in a Magna. Dont have much expericnce with them, I tended to use Semi-synthetic, and leave it in their for between 10-15,000km. Mind you, these cars wernt driven very hard.

Lots of things can upset oil. The big two are heat, and heat cycles. Lots of short driving to the shops and back, is something that oils dont like. In cases like this, perhaps a sooner change, or a higher quality oil should be used.

using nulon high Km engine oil 15W-40
in my 180,000km engine.
its not too thick, i do drive it hard tho, and i usally do short trips, as it my everyday car, dad has allways changed his every 5000kms now so do i.
and yeah as you say, black oil isnt bad oil, this is the reason why i change it, so it doesnt get a chance to become bad in the first place.
or mabey im just too anal

Lowrider there's plenty of advice in this thread as to 'good' oils.

Im a penrite person, HPR5 or HPR10. I do 99% of my driving stop start, most of the time for not any longer than 5minutes. Change oil every 7500km, oil does not thicken, doesnt smell burnt.

About to switch to Penrite fully synthetic.

Mobil 1 seems to be the go aswell.

somthing wrong with nulon?

Not sure.

However if you are worried as its going black, and if its getting slightly thicker, as you do a lot of driving - a semi synthetic or fully synthetic might be a better option.

hmmm ill keep that in mind, i origanlly switched to the Nuon in my old 3.0L engine as it was getting the tap tap tap.
syndrome, the high kms nulon product worked best to keep the noise down, this new engine doesnt make the noise, so mabey a semi syn is to be considered, i hear good things about penrite.

Just came back from my mechanics and he had a 05 TW in the corner with the bonnet up, asked whats with the magna? he said the bearings had minced themselves, the pickup was clogged with metal shavings and about 3cm of oil sludge in the bottom of the sump! Slack servicing I ask, nope, castrol and these motors don't mix it appears, checked the odo and it had 86k on the clock!

The above could be caused by alot of things.

I read a few people that dont seem to like castrol here, but ill say one thing. Nick from APC in QLD personally uses Castrol edge in all the cars he builds. This includes an evo that puts out 450kw at all four wheels.

So your trying to tell me that the 6g74 is such a high tech, different motor, that castrol oil in a stock engine is going to cause problems ?

The above could be caused by alot of things.

I read a few people that dont seem to like castrol here, but ill say one thing. Nick from APC in QLD personally uses Castrol edge in all the cars he builds. This includes an evo that puts out 450kw at all four wheels.

So your trying to tell me that the 6g74 is such a high tech, different motor, that castrol oil in a stock engine is going to cause problems ?

Not saying the engines are high tech etc, just saying what I saw and what the mechanic told me about the car being serviced with castrol most of it's (short) life. He was hoping the crank was still ok etc etc, was gonna pull it down this arvo, as far as I know, the main reason bearings go like this is lack of oil and\or quality\quantity.

What oil filter was used ? OEM, a decent aftermarket, or something rubbish ? A block filter, aswell as a bad one could cause it. Many other things aswell, but think of it this way.

The crank pretty much swims in oil, the heads dont. The chance of a crank/bearings dying from poor quality oil is extremly low in comparison to the heads dying first.

Ill still use and suggest Castrol Edge for many applications, as I am yet to see any failings due to this oil, even in extreme situations.

The crank pretty much swims in oil

if your crank swims/baths in oil then you got problems.....

Oils turning 'black' could be the detergents going black, might not mean that the oil is bad.

A high detergent oil goes dark, can look black depending on the light but is generally brown. That indicates its doing its job of cleaning inside the engine.

As the engine wears more the oil goes dark sooner. Not necessarily an indication the oil is needing to be changed.

Some competition oils contain very little detergent. These if used in a road engine they stay clear like new oil but the engine would be full of sludge even with frequent oil changes. Pulled down an engine that had 3,000km changes on Castrol R30, the guy liked the smell and the idea of using "real racing oil". The engine had only done 15,000km and the sludge was 5-6mm thick in the sump and head.



Ers is right. Black oil dosnt always mean the oil is bad. The inverse however is true, ie, a clean oil pretty much means the oil is good (for street cars, heat cycles can kill them with track work)

Lots of things can upset oil. The big two are heat, and heat cycles. Lots of short driving to the shops and back, is something that oils dont like. In cases like this, perhaps a sooner change, or a higher quality oil should be used.

The big killer of oil is cold running and idling. Both conditions quickly use up the additive package and leave the engine relying on the base fluid to provide lubrication, resist sludge, oxidation etc.

Heat cycles don't have a significant effect on high quality oils. If the oil is overheated ie. above about 130 C for synthetic, oxidation is more rapid. If kept below 120 deg C and not subjected to cold shear then heat cycles have minimal impact. Mineral oils don't like it much above 110 deg and in 64 hr 150 deg load tests turn to tar.

Cheers,
Alan

A high detergent oil goes dark, can look black depending on the light but is generally brown. That indicates its doing its job of cleaning inside the engine.

As the engine wears more the oil goes dark sooner. Not necessarily an indication the oil is needing to be changed.

Thats what my Penrite oil looks like - really dark in some light, put it out into the sun and its a light/dark brown combo. Thats at the 7500km mark.

A high detergent oil goes dark, can look black depending on the light but is generally brown. That indicates its doing its job of cleaning inside the engine.

As the engine wears more the oil goes dark sooner. Not necessarily an indication the oil is needing to be changed.

Some competition oils contain very little detergent. These if used in a road engine they stay clear like new oil but the engine would be full of sludge even with frequent oil changes. Pulled down an engine that had 3,000km changes on Castrol R30, the guy liked the smell and the idea of using "real racing oil". The engine had only done 15,000km and the sludge was 5-6mm thick in the sump and head.

The big killer of oil is cold running and idling. Both conditions quickly use up the additive package and leave the engine relying on the base fluid to provide lubrication, resist sludge, oxidation etc.

Heat cycles don't have a significant effect on high quality oils. If the oil is overheated ie. above about 130 C for synthetic, oxidation is more rapid. If kept below 120 deg C and not subjected to cold shear then heat cycles have minimal impact. Mineral oils don't like it much above 110 deg and in 64 hr 150 deg load tests turn to tar.

Cheers,
Alan

So Alan would u recommend using Mobil 1 5/50W in a magna/verada? I seriously think 10/60W or 10/70W is overrated... 10/50W is alright but i can't find any synthetic oils for those...

So Alan would u recommend using Mobil 1 5/50W in a magna/verada? I seriously think 10/60W or 10/70W is overrated... 10/50W is alright but i can't find any synthetic oils for those...

I don't have any issues with Mobil 1 5W/50 in our climate. Its the best all round oil, reasonably cheap and easy to get in most places. I use it in my AWD. Its borderline on being too heavy but unfortunately there's no Mobil 1 5W/40 here. The 0W/40 is a good oil too. A bit expensive though and the evap rate is a bit high for my liking, but then you can't have everything I guess, and its factory fill in many of the European exotics.

10/60 and 10/70 should never be used in a road engine. Maybe a competition engine with very loose bearings would be OK, or perhaps if there were serious cam/lifter destruction issues. The only other place is for blown drags/hillclimb using extreme overfuelled alcohol to cool piston/head where oil dilution due to fuel down past the rings is a problem.

Cheers,
Alan

I don't have any issues with Mobil 1 5W/50 in our climate. Its the best all round oil, reasonably cheap and easy to get in most places. I use it in my AWD. Its borderline on being too heavy but unfortunately there's no Mobil 1 5W/40 here. The 0W/40 is a good oil too. A bit expensive though and the evap rate is a bit high for my liking, but then you can't have everything I guess, and its factory fill in many of the European exotics.

10/60 and 10/70 should never be used in a road engine. Maybe a competition engine with very loose bearings would be OK, or perhaps if there were serious cam/lifter destruction issues. The only other place is for blown drags/hillclimb using extreme overfuelled alcohol to cool piston/head where oil dilution due to fuel down past the rings is a problem.

Cheers,
Alan
Tell me Alan, with this statement of yours then, why does one of the premium EVO tuners in Australia, Neal Lowe, recommend and use Penrite SYN 10W-70 for all EVOs? Neal Lowe has been tuning race cars and road cars for about 40 years, and has been tuning EVOs since their inception about 17 years ago. He's payed by racing companies to go to places like Malaysia and China to tune their cars. He tuned my EVO and uses Penrite SYN 10W-70. Why do you say it can't be used in a road engine?

surely 10w/70 is over-doing it in a street car?!? If it is tracked a lot then yeah I guess so...?

Tell me Alan, with this statement of yours then, why does one of the premium EVO tuners in Australia, Neal Lowe, recommend and use Penrite SYN 10W-70 for all EVOs? Neal Lowe has been tuning race cars and road cars for about 40 years, and has been tuning EVOs since their inception about 17 years ago. He's payed by racing companies to go to places like Malaysia and China to tune their cars. He tuned my EVO and uses Penrite SYN 10W-70. Why do you say it can't be used in a road engine?

Ive spoken personally to Neil Lowe. Not a real fan. He suggests running boost so high on a stock turbo, thats its off the compressor map. He also is a big fan of motec, mainly because of his profit margin on them.

Ive also spoken to Nick from APC, who says anything more than a 50weight in a stock (non rebuilt) is pushing the limits. Given ive seen the amount of cars come out of APC, ill take their word.

Personally, I have only done minor things to evos, so I cant quite tell you what works best. I only go off what the industry experts say.

Tell me Alan, with this statement of yours then, why does one of the premium EVO tuners in Australia, Neal Lowe, recommend and use Penrite SYN 10W-70 for all EVOs? Neal Lowe has been tuning race cars and road cars for about 40 years, and has been tuning EVOs since their inception about 17 years ago. He's payed by racing companies to go to places like Malaysia and China to tune their cars. He tuned my EVO and uses Penrite SYN 10W-70. Why do you say it can't be used in a road engine?

ive always been sceptical about neal lowe's opinion on this one... have u heard it from his mouth urself or through ppl? just wondering if it was for one particular engine he recommended it for and ppl have taken it as being ok for any evo.. i certaintly would never fill my evo with 10w-70..... have u man?

FYI im currently running 0w-40 in my evo on the street.. castrol edge atm.. but i change to thicker when going track... 10w-50 for track is what i use.

hmm currently using 10w-40 magnatec oil simply because that is what the previous owner was using, should I be changing this for a fully synthetic oil? Most of my trips are less than 10mins long so the oil doesn't really have a lot of time to heat up...

Just came back from my mechanics and he had a 05 TW in the corner with the bonnet up, asked whats with the magna? he said the bearings had minced themselves, the pickup was clogged with metal shavings and about 3cm of oil sludge in the bottom of the sump! Slack servicing I ask, nope, castrol and these motors don't mix it appears, checked the odo and it had 86k on the clock!

good ol' castrol sludge...think thats a feature of their mineral oils... not good for any car i think
to date ive seen damage on toyota celica 98, calais 95, rover-75, landrover discovery, daewoo lanos 2000 model, magna 3rd gen, lancers/mirage/proton equivalents with mitsubishi engines.

i dont know about their full synthetics cause i'm not prepared to risk my customers cars and my reputation
but in light of recent discussion on this thread i'm gonna trial mobil 1 on my magna/verada clients and get their feedback...and on my magna next oil change

Ive spoken personally to Neil Lowe. Not a real fan. He suggests running boost so high on a stock turbo, thats its off the compressor map. He also is a big fan of motec, mainly because of his profit margin on them.

Ive also spoken to Nick from APC, who says anything more than a 50weight in a stock (non rebuilt) is pushing the limits. Given ive seen the amount of cars come out of APC, ill take their word.

Personally, I have only done minor things to evos, so I cant quite tell you what works best. I only go off what the industry experts say.
He doesn't suggest running enormous amounts of boost at all. He ran a very safe 1.6 BAR peak on mine with upgraded fuel pump, which is about standard for all bolt on EVOs. He's a fan of motec not because of the profit (he sold mine to me at the price he gets from his supplier - I checked) He's a fan of motec because it has everything you could possibly need in an ECU for an EVO and he's been tuning them since you were wearing nappies.

APC are a good tuning house, but ask anyone on the EVO forums in QLD where they take their EVOs for a service and to get upgrades done and it's Neal Lowe everytime. I've personally been to Neals workshop when they were repairing cars tuned by APC.


ive always been sceptical about neal lowe's opinion on this one... have u heard it from his mouth urself or through ppl? just wondering if it was for one particular engine he recommended it for and ppl have taken it as being ok for any evo.. i certaintly would never fill my evo with 10w-70..... have u man?


Himself, and the young guy that works with Neal, Nick. When you get your EVO serviced there, that is the oil they use and recommend. I've been using it in my EVO for about 18 months, and we use it now in my missus' Ralliart Colt. Both engines are supremely smooth, and with the 70 weight I know the engine will be protected even when oil temps reach 150c and beyond (if that's even possible with the EVO)

I mean, you're talking about a guy with more years experience tuning and working on EVOs gremlin, than you and I have probably known they existed... I'm gonna trust him on this one.

I'm not interested in arguing with anyone on this point, so if you have any further questions, please contact Neal Lowe.

Neal Lowe Motorsports Pty Ltd

Neal Lowe
21 Brennan Street
Slacks Creek, 4127
Brisbane
Phone/Fax: (07) 3808 3048
Mobile: 0419 727 623
Email: nlm@bigpond.com
Speciality: Road, Race and Rally, Engine Tuning,
SE Asia, China
ECU Dealer

He doesn't suggest running enormous amounts of boost at all. He ran a very safe 1.6 BAR peak on mine with upgraded fuel pump, which is about standard for all bolt on EVOs. He's a fan of motec not because of the profit (he sold mine to me at the price he gets from his supplier - I checked) He's a fan of motec because it has everything you could possibly need in an ECU for an EVO and he's been tuning them since you were wearing nappies.

APC are a good tuning house, but ask anyone on the EVO forums in QLD where they take their EVOs for a service and to get upgrades done and it's Neal Lowe everytime. I've personally been to Neals workshop when they were repairing cars tuned by APC.


Fair enough. I may have been wrong, so i take back my comments. As I said, I dont have have a hole deal of evo experience, especially when it comes to QLD workshops.

DO you mind to elebrate on the APC point ? Im quite interested actually. PM me if you wish

For what its worth, I have run Mobil 1 5/50 in my TWII VRX AWD since break in at about 20,000km. I change it at 15,000 as per book and it looks fine coming up to 120,000km. Consumption is essentially zero. I bought a TJ1 for each of my girls last year and have weaned them onto the same diet. Both coming up 130,000km and no consumption of leaks or noises either.

Some years ago, before no 2 daughter, I used to play with an R100 Mazda. RX7 12A, 5spd, 4 discs, etc. My first car that I kept for 17 years. I had the engine professionally rebuilt once and when collecting it I was told by the builder that no warranty would apply if I had a problem and they found that I was still using Castrol, in it. I asked how they knew that that was what I had used, and they said they could tell by the sludge and wear inside. Stayed away from it ever since. Their recommendation was Mobil or Valvoline.

The rotaries are also very critical of operating temp and contingent wear The way to get them warmed up is like Alan J says, start them and drive them with as few revs as possible until properly warm, which was about 20 km. I used to get 120,000 - 140,000 per engine doing this where as others with similar builds were lucky to get 50,000. It'd run to 9,000 rpm too, but not until warm. I've adopted this strategy ever since on all my vehicles and look for 400,000 plus out of my cars and utes before I turn them over. Engine wear is never an issue.

One of my other interests is bikes, and I have a couple of Husaberg dirt bikes. The old 501 grew up on a diet of Mobil 1 Racing 4t, a bike specific blend that I've also used in my road bikes with no problems. The Bergs are a high performance 4 stroke and have a very lumpy cam that even has a concave up ramp. Very hard on valve gear. Service interval for changing out the roller followers is about 100 hours. I let them go a bit far and the cam got scuffed too. Bummer. After a new cam and followers I also switched to Caltex Delo 400 on the recommendation of a Husaberg luminary in the US who was also a petrochemist with Chevron in a previous life and was involved in the oils' development. Now over 300 more hours and still fine with no sign of wear in the valve gear at all. Oil change interval on the Bergs is 5 hours. Dunno what it all means, but in the Bergs, the Delo 400 is great. The theory seems to be that the Delo 400, a 15/40 semi synth works better with roller and needle bearings because its not too thin and slippery and forces the bearing elements to rotate, whereas the full, and thinner synthetics can allow the rolling elements to skid rather than forces them to turn. Not an issue in a plain bearing motor.

Steve

Tell me Alan, with this statement of yours then, why does one of the premium EVO tuners in Australia, Neal Lowe, recommend and use Penrite SYN 10W-70 for all EVOs? Neal Lowe has been tuning race cars and road cars for about 40 years, and has been tuning EVOs since their inception about 17 years ago. He's payed by racing companies to go to places like Malaysia and China to tune their cars. He tuned my EVO and uses Penrite SYN 10W-70. Why do you say it can't be used in a road engine?

What Neil Lowe and those who follow his advice do is their business. I've been doing it for 50 yrs, and at all levels of engineering and development, but that argument is about as sound as kids arguing "my father's the smartest".

However there are many reasons why a 60 or 70 grade oil shouldn't be used in a road car as I have already elaborated. I don't know anything about Penrite 10/70 any I'll not waste my time to find out. Many Penrite products have viscosity modifiers(read polymers) which in spite of all claims made are not shear stable. That's likely why the heavy grade oil recommendation.

The idea is just plain wrong. A good synthetic doesn't need a VI improver. If it does there is an issue with the base fluid. With few exceptions highly modified and race engines do not need/should not have 70 grade oil. The only time a 70 grade is used is for race engines with extreme high clearance bearings, extreme cam/lifter loads from flat tappet cams lifting big heavy valves at 8,000-10,000rpm(however even in flat tappet NASCAR engines we never went higher than 50 grade and qualified on 0W/20 with 21mm valve lift and 10,000rpm; some teams qualified on 0W/7.5 and engine changes were not allowed after qualifying, and oil temps and water temps were around 140 and more with nearly all air blocked off for max downforce, and then they have to run another 500-600 miles at 9,500 rpm), or a blown engine non-intercooled with massive oil dilution from extra rich alcohol/nitro overfuelling.

In racing you'll find only Top Fuel and Top Alcohol using 60 and 70 grades.

Probably 20 yrs ago the Walkinshaw Jag V12s used Castrol 10/60 for 24 hr races but that was the exception. From memory that may have been the only grade the old Castrol R synthetic was made in and with Castrol backing the team to the tune of several million that had to be used. The oil of choice for endurance stuff is a Mobil 1 competition blend rated 15W/50. For other competition the oil will be a 20, 30 or 40 grade depending on how the builder sets up his engines.

Road engines have very tight bearings so should not have heavy oil. Most manufacturers specify a 20 or 30 grade in USA(eg Mitsubishi specify 0W/20 for the 3.8 6G75 for fuel economy, here they recommend 5W/30 for the same engine), in Europe most specify 0W/40 as their cars may spend a lot of time at 200kph(generally 140-160 in the slow lane).

Some pontificate about oil shear with lower grades without knowing anything, just parroting someone else's ideas. The highest shear area in cars is at the hypoid diff gears. Prior to synthetics the gear oil of choice for competition was Castrol R40. That was for the place where there is more load/shear than anywhere in the engine and a 40 grade oil did the job with no worries, easily handling massive shear loads from 1000HP turbo cars weighing 1.5 ton.

Cheers,
Alan

I don't know anything about Penrite 10/70 any I'll not waste my time to find out.
*snip*

Cheers,
Alan
You sound like that cash for comment guy... John Laws. "Hey people, Mobil 1!" :facejump:

Thanks, I'll stick to what i've got and trust the guy who tunes MY car and has MY interests at heart.

Disciple, with all due respect - what Neil advises in his customers cars is his business. Coming in here and stating that he advises you to use XYZ oil and therefor everyone else is wrong (even in the face of actual facts and experience) is a little childish imo.

ninja edit: Basically, if a tuner advises you that for your car 70W oil is what you should use. Then good.

For the other 99.9999999999999% of cars on the road, 70W oil is wrong.

You sound like that cash for comment guy... John Laws. "Hey people, Mobil 1!" :facejump:

Thanks, I'll stick to what i've got and trust the guy who tunes MY car and has MY interests at heart.

John Laws did Valvolene.....wonder what else you're wrong about!

One of my other interests is bikes, and I have a couple of Husaberg dirt bikes. The old 501 grew up on a diet of Mobil 1 Racing 4t, a bike specific blend that I've also used in my road bikes with no problems. The Bergs are a high performance 4 stroke and have a very lumpy cam that even has a concave up ramp. Very hard on valve gear. Service interval for changing out the roller followers is about 100 hours. I let them go a bit far and the cam got scuffed too. Bummer. After a new cam and followers I also switched to Caltex Delo 400 on the recommendation of a Husaberg luminary in the US who was also a petrochemist with Chevron in a previous life and was involved in the oils' development. Now over 300 more hours and still fine with no sign of wear in the valve gear at all. Oil change interval on the Bergs is 5 hours. Dunno what it all means, but in the Bergs, the Delo 400 is great. The theory seems to be that the Delo 400, a 15/40 semi synth works better with roller and needle bearings because its not too thin and slippery and forces the bearing elements to rotate, whereas the full, and thinner synthetics can allow the rolling elements to skid rather than forces them to turn. Not an issue in a plain bearing motor.

Steve

Hi Steve, good to learn of your experience. Are these Rotax engines? Do they have solid or hyd cam/lifter?

Rollers are a big problem with all types of oil, especially synthetic or heavy mineral. With hyd lifters skidding is reduced and rev kits in push-rod engines pre-loads the cam and lifter when on base circle. However if your bike had a solid lifter without pre-load mechanism skidding would be an issue. As the lifter goes from base circle to the ramp it would load up and skid. Some engines also have the rollers set off cam center line, like the Magna, and this adds a bit more load.

Rollers are another good reason to keep clear of heavy oil. The heavier the oil the bigger and thicker the "bow wave" in front of the roller. The roller skids trying to cut into the wave.




You sound like that cash for comment guy... John Laws. "Hey people, Mobil 1!" :facejump:

Thanks, I'll stick to what i've got and trust the guy who tunes MY car and has MY interests at heart.

I don't appreciate sarcasm, and at my age and with my experience is it asking too much for a little respect. I get no money from anyone for my comments. I tell it how it is. If you can't accept that that is your problem.

Before making baseless accusations do some research into the subject of lubrication and see what people who really know about oil say.

Actually if you had read my comments you would have noted I prefer Amsoil, naturally thats because they pay better.

Yes, I've used and recommend Valvoline syn too. Their semi-syn is quite good as well.

It seems this forum has a number of very small-minded people who can't stand to have some pet idea proved wrong so start throwing abuse and sarcasm to defend their pathetic beliefs. If the idea has merit then present it in an adult mature manner please.

Cheers,
Alan

Disciple, with all due respect - what Neil advises in his customers cars is his business. Coming in here and stating that he advises you to use XYZ oil and therefor everyone else is wrong (even in the face of actual facts and experience) is a little childish imo.

ninja edit: Basically, if a tuner advises you that for your car 70W oil is what you should use. Then good.

For the other 99.9999999999999% of cars on the road, 70W oil is wrong.
Yes, but I didn't say it was right for every car, I said it's what I use, and what was recommended to me by the tuner of my car, who happens to be one of the premier EVO tuners in Australia. Penrite 10W-70 IMO is good for my car, but may not be good for others. I wouldn't use it in my Magna that's for sure.

Zero - You missed the joke.

Alan - I'm sorry you take things so seriously. I don't appreciate being called small minded and don't take too kindly to being told I have pathetic beliefs. If mine don't line up with yours, that's fine. Learn to take a joke, know you or I don't know everything and move on.

Cheers.

For the benefit of forum members willing to learn I have just added this quote from Penrite.

"Even our own SIN 0, 5 and 10 will suffer some shear due to viscosity modifier shear".

As I stated before a good syn oil does not need to have a VI improver added. Only mineral oils and low grade semi-syn normally have VI improvers. Some mineral oils don't use them either because of expensive base fluid.

Previously Disciple mentioned his engine being protected at 150 deg by 10W/70 oil. Ordinary light grade mineral oils will do that. All API rated oils have to pass a 64 hr test with the sump oil temp maintained at 150 for the entire 64 hrs. Manufacturers also do track tests at similar oil temps, particularly manufacturers of motor bikes, that run continuous for days at maximum speed.

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan,

The Bergs run a 4V SOHC with forked rockers and screw tappets with 'elephants' feet and needle roller followers, ie solid lifters. They are of Swedish origin and came about after Husqvarna moved to Italy in about 1988, started up by the redunded Swedes. They are currently owned by KTM since about 1986 who cloned their cylinder head and valve gear design for their 2000 and subsequent models. Other boutique European manufactures have also cloned their designs, the heads especially. VOR and Sherco come to mind, but I'm sure there are one or two others too. They are currently made in Austria but R&D still happens in Sweden. Their 09 models have reinvented the dirt bike with crankshafts on top of the gearbox, plastic subframes and closed loop EFI. My 07 650 weighs 122kg ready to ride, toolbag and all fluids and puts out 63hp at the wheel on the dyno. Its a hoot.

Bit off topic, but whatever,
Steve

Hi Steve, good to learn of your experience. Are these Rotax engines? Do they have solid or hyd cam/lifter?

Rollers are a big problem with all types of oil, especially synthetic or heavy mineral. With hyd lifters skidding is reduced and rev kits in push-rod engines pre-loads the cam and lifter when on base circle. However if your bike had a solid lifter without pre-load mechanism skidding would be an issue. As the lifter goes from base circle to the ramp it would load up and skid. Some engines also have the rollers set off cam center line, like the Magna, and this adds a bit more load.

Rollers are another good reason to keep clear of heavy oil. The heavier the oil the bigger and thicker the "bow wave" in front of the roller. The roller skids trying to cut into the wave.





I don't appreciate sarcasm, and at my age and with my experience is it asking too much for a little respect. I get no money from anyone for my comments. I tell it how it is. If you can't accept that that is your problem.

Before making baseless accusations do some research into the subject of lubrication and see what people who really know about oil say.

Actually if you had read my comments you would have noted I prefer Amsoil, naturally thats because they pay better.

Yes, I've used and recommend Valvoline syn too. Their semi-syn is quite good as well.

It seems this forum has a number of very small-minded people who can't stand to have some pet idea proved wrong so start throwing abuse and sarcasm to defend their pathetic beliefs. If the idea has merit then present it in an adult mature manner please.

Cheers,
Alan

Alan,while i think you have wealths of info,much like Madmagna, demanding respect is never a good look IMO,as at your age,you would well know that it is earnt and not given,and that comes with time,and the abilty to take other people opinions and admit defeat IF and WHEN your wrong,cos as a famous saying goes "Humility makes good men twice honorable”,and at the end of the day,we are on a discusision forums,where people wont always agree and will challenge you as you have found out with what they believe to be right and have freedom of speech,I have had people tell me cos they have had 20 years in the field that im automaticly wrong and try to talk me down,but at the end of the day i was right and they were wrong,but thats life,some people cant be humble,not much you can do about it either,but never forget,you learn new stuff everyday,oh,and by me saying this, i am not assuming your wrong either

Keep up the good work mate as i really enjoy all your info and so does the rest of the forum,so dont take it to heart mate,thats all im saying

Steve

Previously Disciple mentioned his engine being protected at 150 deg by 10W/70 oil.

evo wont hit 150deg cel. in australia.. even on the track... the car has factory engine oil cooler.. highest i saw at the track in feb (bloody hot day) was 115deg for a brief moment.. rest of the day it sat at 110 all day..


or have i missed the point of the 150deg comment?

Hi Alan,

The Bergs run a 4V SOHC with forked rockers and screw tappets with 'elephants' feet and needle roller followers, ie solid lifters. They are of Swedish origin and came about after Husqvarna moved to Italy in about 1988, started up by the redunded Swedes. They are currently owned by KTM since about 1986 who cloned their cylinder head and valve gear design for their 2000 and subsequent models. Other boutique European manufactures have also cloned their designs, the heads especially. VOR and Sherco come to mind, but I'm sure there are one or two others too. They are currently made in Austria but R&D still happens in Sweden. Their 09 models have reinvented the dirt bike with crankshafts on top of the gearbox, plastic subframes and closed loop EFI. My 07 650 weighs 122kg ready to ride, toolbag and all fluids and puts out 63hp at the wheel on the dyno. Its a hoot.

Bit off topic, but whatever,
Steve

OK thanks Steve, good to know about that design and its history. Being solid lifters without preload is a big problem for rollers. Once load is taken away on the base circle they stop or at least slow down, then on hitting the opening ramp have to get moving rapidly on a slippery slope so to speak.

Cheers,
Alan

evo wont hit 150deg cel. in australia.. even on the track... the car has factory engine oil cooler.. highest i saw at the track in feb (bloody hot day) was 115deg for a brief moment.. rest of the day it sat at 110 all day..


or have i missed the point of the 150deg comment?


I've been using it in my EVO for about 18 months, and we use it now in my missus' Ralliart Colt. Both engines are supremely smooth, and with the 70 weight I know the engine will be protected even when oil temps reach 150c and beyond (if that's even possible with the EVO)

I mean, you're talking about a guy with more years experience tuning and working on EVOs gremlin, than you and I have probably known they existed... I'm gonna trust him on this one.


Disciple said in an earlier post heavy 70 grade was needed for protection at 150 deg. My point was that all API rated oils have to pass a 64 hr test at 150 deg oil temp in a fully loaded engine on dyno to carry a SL/SM etc tag. Even fairly poor mineral oils pass, so there is no benefit using 70 grade.(Most oil companies run syn oil for 128 hrs during development tests).

In endurance races we have had to run at 170-180 temps for hours due to oil cooler damage on 15W/50. There was no damage, but its not recommended as tri-metal bearings can fail above about 130 deg. Silicon Al are OK way above 150 though.

Cheers,
Alan

evo wont hit 150deg cel. in australia.. even on the track... the car has factory engine oil cooler.. highest i saw at the track in feb (bloody hot day) was 115deg for a brief moment.. rest of the day it sat at 110 all day..


or have i missed the point of the 150deg comment?

lol, if it won't hit 150 in Australia, where else on the planet will it? Australia is one of the hottest countries on earth by average...

lol, if it won't hit 150 in Australia, where else on the planet will it? Australia is one of the hottest countries on earth by average...

middle east


so Alan with you wealth of knowledge... what would you recommend for engine and trans oil temps on a 3rd gen 3.5 4sp auto

lol, if it won't hit 150 in Australia, where else on the planet will it? Australia is one of the hottest countries on earth by average...

good point.. woops :)

lol, if it won't hit 150 in Australia, where else on the planet will it? Australia is one of the hottest countries on earth by average...

That temp. would be like a safety margin thing.

There are some ppl with real knowledge on here and then................
I would like to make a few comments.
Magnatec, used it in my TS V6 and stopped using it. I did regular oil changes and found ticking hydraulic lifters and varnish at 140000km . So won't use Magnatec again. (new lifters and a change of oil meant I sold the car at 308000km with a quite motor). Before it was called Magnatec it was called Magnetic. The 'magnetic' or whatever modified claim they make today does not add up. Many people believe it is Synthetic...It is not. Is it semi-syn? I am not anti Castrol and have no problem using Castrol SYNTHETICS.

Be careful with semi-synthetics. How much synthetic must be added to mineral oil to call it semi-synthetic?

Penrite make good oil and I have used their products. They provide detailed specs on their product, something most manufacturers don't. Penrite veer towards specifying higher viscositiy oil than all or most companies. Go on their website and see what they specify for Magnas. Do they still have the articles extolling the virtues of higher viscosity oils? After much research i have concluded that prefix 5 or 10 and suffix 40/50 is way to go for most cars under Australian conditions. Unfortunately the oil I wish to use is not always available in the exact ...W... I want or is too expensive.

With modern cars, one should start and then drive off smoothly. I have never thrashed a cold moto (wait until it has warmed up properly before accelerating hard. My uncle was correct in going out 10 minutes before leaving work and starting the engine of his old Alfa (1960/1970 vintage...not a modern car )for a 10 minute idle, before moving off.

Coolant warms up heaps quicker than oil. Ask anyone who has an oil pressure gauge.

I know someone who stuffed a V6 KS by using Magnatec, then neglecting oil changes (and filters), letting car stand for months. She called me and I said needs new oil. First thought oil was too thin (looking at oil on dipstick), but later learned oil in bottom of sump was a lot thicker. Of course there was a lot of noise and you guess, the oil pressure light was long gone. Used a jackhammer to clean the oil pick up and diesel etc to clean top end. Fitted an oil pressure gauge, ran some cheap oil through, did filter change and put in good quality oil. I thought we had saved the motor. She would start fine and run OK, but after 20 minutes, the oil pressure took a dive and noises started. So I scouted around for 'thick' oil and filled her up with Penrite.

Be weary of oils with huge differences between numbers (for example 5W70). In mineral oil this is achieved by using viscosity modifiers, which break down. Viscosity modifiers are expensive and some are better than others (more stable). This is why I use full syn (let's say the oil is chosen to be right, not made to be right by adding long/medium/short chain polymers. It doesn't take long for the long chain polymer to be a med, then short one.

You will notice within a Mobil etc with big range is more expensive than one with narrow range. This is because it is more difficult and expensive to engineer/make. The old monogrades were simple only one figure was quoted..what happened when the oil was cold/got hot?


A good oil starts with a good base oil, then addition of the appropriate additives (always a compromise) and some companies do this better than others. A cheap oil will always be just that, then one needs to spot the BS and realise good oil =$ (jsut choose the right one for your application).

I believe a good oil used in the correct application will not benefit from additives that I add. Additives that I add will alter the characteristics that the oil blender has carefully designed into the oil. Some fix it products in a bottle can help temporarily, but often create new problems, which users don't realise.

Flushing has it's place. I prefer regular changes of oil and filters to prevent probs. Some motors sludge more easily than others, so take care.

Many ppl are careful about the oil they use, but use any old filter. I am picky and will pay for a good filter. My mate at Auto 1 thinks I am crazy and says things like the local mechanics us this item all the time and are happy. Sh-t if I did take my car to most mechanics they would not care whether the filters/oil etc mean I get 100 000 km out of the motor or 400 000. In fact they would be happy if I told them I need a rebuild. Maintenance = insurance. I don't want to rebuild another motor in my life, but oil changes are almost a pleasure (and cheap).


For my TJ I use Valvoline Synpower 5W40 full synthetic. 5 to get oil to the lifters etc quickly at start up and 40 is good for high speed drivng/idling in a row of cars on a hot day. It is fine in winter also. This car could well stay in the family to beyond 300 000km and all I expect to do to the engine other than cam belt and water pump is valve stem seals once, which I will do. I do about 40 000km/year in this car. Change oil and filter (found Mitsubishi made in japan...happiness) every 7500km. Feel 10W would be fine, but Feel W30 would be too low viscosity for the way I drive.

For my wife's 1600CC Nissan pulsar N15 (1998 WITH 90 000 KM) using Castrol Edge 5w30 full syn. Change oil and filter every 5000km or 1 year (which occur at about the same time). 5 again to get oil to top, which is important for this engine and for her driving I think we can get away with W30 (no high speed freeway long distance/ not much sitting in city traffic and no towing). She drives at a good speed (I tend to go a little harder), but she still starts off at the same pace with a cold motor.

Would like comments from people who have knowledge on the following.
What do you think of Valvoline Synpower
What do you think of Castrol Edge.
Mobil seems to be great oil (might change to Mobil at some stage.....availability of Valvoline poor, sometimes Castrol also)
I wonder about changing filter every 5000 or 7500 km. If oil is changed regularly filter interval could go to 10/15000??? After 10000/15000 the filter would be far from blocking.
I often think of extending the oil change intervals (SOME PPL SAY CAN EASILY GO 15000 WITH FULL SYN), but we are not talking huge bucks and I prefer to be cautious. Comments please.

middle east


so Alan with you wealth of knowledge... what would you recommend for engine and trans oil temps on a 3rd gen 3.5 4sp auto

Engine oils work best at 90-110 deg C. For mineral oils anything over 95-100 is a bit risky long term as the oil oxidises faster. For synthetics though I always aim for 100-105 as that is around the best for less friction and pumping losses and gives a margin of safety for climbing another 10-15 deg without any worry about losing copper lead bearings. Over about 120 with synthetic oxidation rates increase rapidly too so for road cars you want to avoid that.

During API oil testing oil is run at 150 deg because that is the sort of temp that typical engines can get to under sustained loads, such as towing or high speed, without the benefit of an oil cooler, and many motor bikes get up there even with a cooler(gear churning and aeration is part of the reason). In competition cars when the oil cooler was damaged or blocked we typically see oil temps rise 60-80 deg (160-180)even with some cooling as oil traveled through the car to rear oil tank and there was a 10-12 ltr oil supply which gave some time for cooling before oil returned to go through the engine. Plus the system uses a centrifuge to get air out of the oil. Air, apart from wrecking bearings, badly affects oil retaining heat(heavy grades hold onto heat more too). Road car oil coolers are a lot smaller because the engine can't be held at big loads for long and generally pull temps down 20-40 deg.

Auto trans oil works best at 70-90 deg C. 75-85 is best for fluid life, and anything above about 90-95 halves fluid life. As delivered with the in-radiator cooler many cars run way above that if worked just a bit hard with fast driving on twisty roads or towing. Then temps will get to 105-115 and cut fluid life to 15,000-25,000km. Fluid that has turned brown and smells burnt shows that it has been at that sort of temp.

Cheers,
Alan

Engine oils work best at 90-110 deg C.

hey alan mate, my evo oil temp, under street normal driving sits at about 85degress. doesnt quite hit 90deg unless i give it a bit/its on boost.. it returns to 85deg within a few mins of off boost driving again. is that ok? 5deg lower not a big deal?

on the street, driving it "hard".. it'll creep to 95ish briefly... never quite gets to 100 even when really doing long periods of spirited driving.....

is this ok u reckon? any side effects of oil running to cool



Coolant warms up heaps quicker than oil. Ask anyone who has an oil pressure gauge


hey mate, i presume you meant oil temp gauge... ? pressure wont help here.....

and yes coolant warms up a stupid amount quicker than oil.. if you flick back a few pages in this thread you'll see my example, with pics, of the evo which has aftermarket oil and water temp gauges

There are some ppl with real knowledge on here and then................


Would like comments from people who have knowledge on the following.
What do you think of Valvoline Synpower
What do you think of Castrol Edge.
Mobil seems to be great oil (might change to Mobil at some stage.....availability of Valvoline poor, sometimes Castrol also)
I wonder about changing filter every 5000 or 7500 km. If oil is changed regularly filter interval could go to 10/15000??? After 10000/15000 the filter would be far from blocking.
I often think of extending the oil change intervals (SOME PPL SAY CAN EASILY GO 15000 WITH FULL SYN), but we are not talking huge bucks and I prefer to be cautious. Comments please.

Synpower vs Edge. Syn power is imo, a pretty rubbish oil for the price (I only use it because I get it super cheap). It contains pretty much NO MOLY in it at all, with the overall additive pacakge being average. Moly is one of the most important oil additives in an oil that gets driven half hard. Motul 300v has Moly levels up around the 6-800 mark. Royal purple and castrol Edge have moly around the 100mark.

You can see Virgin oil reports from http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/


They honestly are the experts in oil, you need to learn something, theyll be the ones to tell you.

The best two (street) oils that are easy to get in Australia would be Redline, and Motul 300v. They are also the most expensive, but really, nothing comes close to them in terms of additive packages incl moly, aswell as the general quality of them.

One last thing ill mention, is there are many different types of Synthetic oil. Synthetic oil is not all the same, ie, there are cracked ester types etc etc. Theres alot of info on BTOG, aswell as google.

hey alan mate, my evo oil temp, under street normal driving sits at about 85degress. doesnt quite hit 90deg unless i give it a bit/its on boost.. it returns to 85deg within a few mins of off boost driving again. is that ok? 5deg lower not a big deal?

on the street, driving it "hard".. it'll creep to 95ish briefly... never quite gets to 100 even when really doing long periods of spirited driving.....

is this ok u reckon? any side effects of oil running to cool



hey mate, i presume you meant oil temp gauge... ? pressure wont help here.....

and yes coolant warms up a stupid amount quicker than oil.. if you flick back a few pages in this thread you'll see my example, with pics, of the evo which has aftermarket oil and water temp gauges

OK one thing to remember here is that the gauge is reading sump oil temp. Not what is happening at the engine bearings or turbo bearings.

Ideally 85 C is too cold, 5 either side of 100 is the best!

I am not at all in favor of engine oil coolers on road cars without a thermostat. Cold oil ie under 70 C kills engines. 85 is OK but a bit less than ideal. In my hoony young days I had to run an oil cooler on my almost full race road car engines and reliable oil thermostats were not around then so I had to stick a bit of al sheet in front of the oil cooler for ordinary 80-90mph running and get out and pull the blocker out of the way when I wanted to give it a bit of stick.

You might want to try the same. The blocker can be in front or even behind the cooler if it fits up tightly. Now with more experience, and probably brains too, I should have set the blocker on a hinge with a wire attached so that I could swing it up to block flow or drop it down to let air through. That mightn't work on your EVO with less space but you may be able to use a letter box slot style blocker that slides into place, or louvers like on trucks.

What we could do way back without speed limits doesn't apply any more so you may find you only need the oil cooler on track days. Run with the oil lines bypassed normally; connected only on track days?

Cheers,
Alan

Alan / Gremlin - there's quite a few good oil cooler kits out there today with thermostats. Run a 90/10 bypass system, when oil is cold - 90% circulates through the engine, 10% through the cooler. When it starts to get over temp, 90% through cooler, 10% through engine. Think B&M have one of these available for a couple hundred dollars.

Friend of mine has bought one for his rotary if memory serves me correctly.

T
Modern cars, Start and drive off smoothly. I have never thrashed a cold motor. My uncle was correct in going out 10 minutes before leaving work and starting the engine of his Alfa for a 10 minute idle.

Coolant warms up heaps quicker than oil. Ask anyone who has an oil pressure gauge.
.

You see, I don't agree with this statement. I am a firm believer of driving a car as soon as the engine is switched on. Oil all the way down in the sump will take a while to circulate up through the oil galleries for lubrication of critical components. Leaving a car idling will extend this time, meaning parts are not being lubricated properly whilst it is stationary. having the car move through the rev range for the first few minutes of a cold engine being switched on will cause the oil to circulate faster to necessary places.

Be weary of oils with huge differences between numbers (for example 5W70). In mineral oil this is achieved by using viscosity modifiers, which break down. Viscosity modifiers are expensive and some are better than others (more stable). This is why I use full syn (let's say the oil is chosen to be right, not made to be right by adding long/medium/short chain polymers. It doesn't take long for the long chain polymer to be a med, then short one.

You will notice within a Mobil etc with big range is more expensive than one with narrow range. This is because it is more difficult and expensive to engineer/make. The old monogrades were simple only one figure was quoted..what happened when the oil was cold/got hot?


A good oil starts with a good base oil, then addition of the appropriate additives (always a compromise) and some companies do this better than others. A cheap oil will always be just that, then one needs to spot the BS and realise good oil =$ (jsut choose the right one for your application).

The addition of polymers is not just an issue with mineral oils. In fact many semi-syn and supposed 100% synthetic use polymers to thicken the oil when it gets hot. A wide viscosity range unfortunately is not a reliable identifier either. Some oil companies are open about the use of viscosity index(VI) improvers and others will do all possible to hide their inclusion.

Sometimes by phoning the tech line you can get the info you are after, but if that doesn't give you the answers you are seeking do a bit of detective work.

Note this statement from Penrite regarding their SIN 0, SIN 5, and SIN 10. "SIN....is made from.......meeting the latest specifications and shear stable viscosity modifiers......." When stating the improved lubrication protection available with alternate Penrite product they say "Even our own SIN 0, 5 and 10 will suffer some shear due to viscosity modifier shear".

Then for example if you look at the viscosity data you find Penrite 10W/70 SIN 10 loses over 8% viscosity after shear at 100 deg C(dropping from 29.2 to 26.8 cSt). That indicates the polymers are being chopped up by shear, and after each shear event the viscosity will continue to degrade. Once damaged polymers do not recover.(Good oils suffer viscosity loss due to shear too but it should be less than about 4% and if they don't have VI improvers they will generally not degrade further, or only a small amount with later shear loads).

A good quality synthetic base stock should not need to have VI improvers, and some very high grade mineral base oils don't either. Such good mineral base fluid is becoming rare and is very expensive, in fact a full synthetic base is often cheaper to manufacture. There are 0W/40 and 5W/50 oils on the market with no polymers added. On the other hand there are 10W/30 and 20W/40 oils about that are loaded with VI improvers. So just looking at the numbers can be misleading.

Prior to polymer technology becoming available relatively cheaply without excessively degrading oil, oils had just a single number, so called monograde oil. However even though the oil may have carried a single 40 grade rating its true grade if compared beside multi-grade oils may have been in the range of 10W/40 if from the best base stocks and 30W/40 if from cheap base oil. Oil companies never mentioned this as they wanted public acceptance of cheaper to produce, but in many cases inferior, supposed "you-beaut" multi-grade. To run-in race cams many cam manufacturers still specify the use of a monograde oil because multi-grades with polymers can't hack itunder heavy cam and lifter loads. Also prior to good diesel synthetics becoming available many big transport operators would not use multi-grade. Many race engine builders also specify the use of monograde oil.

The very best base stock, whether mineral or synthetic, thickens less when cold and thins out less when hot. The poor quality cheap base fluids thicken more when cold and thins more when hot. The only way to counter this when using poor base oil is to start with a relatively thin product that is perhaps only 20 grade when cold and load it with polymers so that it will thicken to 40 grade when hot.

But a good base fluid isn't the only consideration. The quality of the additive package and the quantity of additive also plays a major role. The best oils have a high quality base fluid and a sufficient quantity of a high quality additive package. That adds up to more $, but paying top $ does not guarantee top quality oil. Small oil producers have a lot more cost involved so an inferior product may cost big $. Conversely big operators can produce more ltrs for less $, and pay distributors a smaller margin.

Plus there is the issue of spoilage. In all production operations things can go wrong. Like in the wine industry "dilution is the solution" so a big refiner can offload inferior product into other products. So 10,000 ltrs of expensive oil that was messed up in production isn't destroyed and lost. It will be added as a % to the base of other products over a period of months. A small produce doesn't generally have this option. At best he may be able on-sell the spoiled product at big loss fire sale price to a big refiner.

Cheers,
Alan

Alan J,

Does this test hold any water?

http://www.motorswaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=432

Cheers
Steve

Steevo, if those tests hold true then the results are quite surprising!

Alan J,

Does this test hold any water?

http://www.motorswaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=432

Cheers
Steve

Steve rubbish tests like this being done with engine oils really make me angry. It is blatant misinformation.

The Timken OK test was only ever intended to test the suitability of extreme pressure (EP) additives for inclusion in gear oils and greases. It was never intended as an oil test, much less an engine oil test. Even Timken representatives D.V. Culp and J.E. Leiser at the 40th annual meeting of the National Lubricating Institute over 30 years ago in 1972 debunked the “Timken hypothesis that gear oils with a higher Timken OK figure provide superior lubrication”. They further stated “there is little correlation between Timken OK numbers and what is experienced in actual service”. In other words the test is a nonsense, even for gear and roller bearing situations where EP quality is of vital importance. According to the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers the Timken OK test is “questionable for use in evaluating levels of EP”, obviously making its use as a means of testing engine oils even more questionable.

The test is about as valid as measuring the tread depth of a tyre and then asserting that those with the most, or perhaps the least depth, will be the superior product/s. The pointlessness of the Timken OK test is obvious when some of the best engine lubricants are right at the bottom, not by a few percent, but by thousands of percent? Oil companies have at their disposal many materials that will provide characteristics that the base fluid alone cannot give. EP additives are relatively inexpensive so it is not an issue to add more when needed. However some can poison the CAT so oil companies are careful not to get on the wrong side of car makers.

Just look at the info on an oil container. There you find the letters API classification SJ, SM etc, or ACEA classification A-3, B-3 or JASO VTW. Why would car makers require oil companies make oils to pass these tests, and then subject their oils to these tests at considerable expense, if all that was required was to run the Timken OK test which by comparison costs almost nothing? Old cooking oil thrown out from the fish and chip shop would, with the addition particularly of sulphur and zinc compounds, register an impressive Timken OK number, but the engine would probably die with minimal loading.

Cheers,
Alan

Steve rubbish tests like this being done with engine oils really make me angry. It is blatant misinformation.

The Timken OK test was only ever intended to test the suitability of extreme pressure (EP) additives for inclusion in gear oils and greases. It was never intended as an oil test, much less an engine oil test. Even Timken representatives D.V. Culp and J.E. Leiser at the 40th annual meeting of the National Lubricating Institute over 30 years ago in 1972 debunked the “Timken hypothesis that gear oils with a higher Timken OK figure provide superior lubrication”. They further stated “there is little correlation between Timken OK numbers and what is experienced in actual service”. In other words the test is a nonsense, even for gear and roller bearing situations where EP quality is of vital importance. According to the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers the Timken OK test is “questionable for use in evaluating levels of EP”, obviously making its use as a means of testing engine oils even more questionable.

The test is about as valid as measuring the tread depth of a tyre and then asserting that those with the most, or perhaps the least depth, will be the superior product/s. The pointlessness of the Timken OK test is obvious when some of the best engine lubricants are right at the bottom, not by a few percent, but by thousands of percent? Oil companies have at their disposal many materials that will provide characteristics that the base fluid alone cannot give. EP additives are relatively inexpensive so it is not an issue to add more when needed. However some can poison the CAT so oil companies are careful not to get on the wrong side of car makers.

Just look at the info on an oil container. There you find the letters API classification SJ, SM etc, or ACEA classification A-3, B-3 or JASO VTW. Why would car makers require oil companies make oils to pass these tests, and then subject their oils to these tests at considerable expense, if all that was required was to run the Timken OK test which by comparison costs almost nothing? Old cooking oil thrown out from the fish and chip shop would, with the addition particularly of sulphur and zinc compounds, register an impressive Timken OK number, but the engine would probably die with minimal loading.

Cheers,
Alan

No dramas Alan,cheers for the info,didnt think it looked like a fair dinkum test of what happens inside an engine,maybe more a lost oil pressure scenario at best?,anyways,any opinion or data on the BP visco 5000 oil,I have used it for a while now and have read some very good reports on it

No dramas Alan,cheers for the info,didnt think it looked like a fair dinkum test of what happens inside an engine,maybe more a lost oil pressure scenario at best?,anyways,any opinion or data on the BP visco 5000 oil,I have used it for a while now and have read some very good reports on it

No worries Steve, you might want to do some personal research on the Timken OK test for your own benefit when you get a spare minute.

Regarding Visco 5000 its hard to keep track of all the oils available and do the necessary research to form an accurate opinion. Some years back we spent several days dyno testing all the top rated syn oils for engine HP output only. Visco 5000 was one of those tested and came through OK , but it was down on HP compared to many other oils so we never tested any further.

What oil you feel comfortable with is a personal thing. My main recommendation is to use a full synthetic and keep away from heavy grade oils and those with VI improvers. But all that is pointless unless the oil is got up to temp quickly and changed as per operating conditions.

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan, have you heard about Amsoil engine oil? What's your take on this brand? i had ran some Amsoil 5w30 on my 380 and it has improve my mileage to 12L/100km on petrol and 14L/100km on LPG. I used to get 14-15L/100km on petrol.

Steve rubbish tests like this being done with engine oils really make me angry. It is blatant misinformation.

The Timken OK test was only ever intended to test the suitability of extreme pressure (EP) additives for inclusion in gear oils and greases. It was never intended as an oil test, much less an engine oil test. Even Timken representatives D.V. Culp and J.E. Leiser at the 40th annual meeting of the National Lubricating Institute over 30 years ago in 1972 debunked the “Timken hypothesis that gear oils with a higher Timken OK figure provide superior lubrication”. They further stated “there is little correlation between Timken OK numbers and what is experienced in actual service”. In other words the test is a nonsense, even for gear and roller bearing situations where EP quality is of vital importance. According to the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers the Timken OK test is “questionable for use in evaluating levels of EP”, obviously making its use as a means of testing engine oils even more questionable.

The test is about as valid as measuring the tread depth of a tyre and then asserting that those with the most, or perhaps the least depth, will be the superior product/s. The pointlessness of the Timken OK test is obvious when some of the best engine lubricants are right at the bottom, not by a few percent, but by thousands of percent? Oil companies have at their disposal many materials that will provide characteristics that the base fluid alone cannot give. EP additives are relatively inexpensive so it is not an issue to add more when needed. However some can poison the CAT so oil companies are careful not to get on the wrong side of car makers.

Just look at the info on an oil container. There you find the letters API classification SJ, SM etc, or ACEA classification A-3, B-3 or JASO VTW. Why would car makers require oil companies make oils to pass these tests, and then subject their oils to these tests at considerable expense, if all that was required was to run the Timken OK test which by comparison costs almost nothing? Old cooking oil thrown out from the fish and chip shop would, with the addition particularly of sulphur and zinc compounds, register an impressive Timken OK number, but the engine would probably die with minimal loading.

Cheers,
Alan

Wow i stand corrected! Quick question Alan, between Purple Royal 10/40W and Mobil 1 5/50W which would u recommend?

Hi Alan, have you heard about Amsoil engine oil? What's your take on this brand? i had ran some Amsoil 5w30 on my 380 and it has improve my mileage to 12L/100km on petrol and 14L/100km on LPG. I used to get 14-15L/100km on petrol.

Where are you buying it and how much?

I actually like Amsoil but its hard to get easily and some importers get it in bulk and then decant it into used containers for sale.

Have a look on the pack and give me the full description of the label as Amsoil make a few different brews of 5W/30.


Wow i stand corrected! Quick question Alan, between Purple Royal 10/40W and Mobil 1 5/50W which would u recommend?

We tested Royal Purple in the big run of HP tests a few years back. The engine survived but was down on power so we never investigated Royal Purple any further. But like many oils its a very hyped up trendy product and in my mind overpriced.

For general heavy duty use Mobil 1 5W/50 is hard to beat. Mobil 1 0W/40 is the HP king by quite a margin but is a lot more expensive, it loses more viscosity in shear and it evaporates faster at high temp.

Cheers,
Alan

Where are you buying it and how much?

I actually like Amsoil but its hard to get easily and some importers get it in bulk and then decant it into used containers for sale.

Have a look on the pack and give me the full description of the label as Amsoil make a few different brews of 5W/30.

Cheers,
Alan

I got it from performancelub.com as i used to get my redline lightweight shockproof gearoil and NGK iridium plugs from them for my Territory too. The Amsoil 5w30 is going for $17.50 per qt, i bought 6qt and left 1qt. Expensive but fuel consumption is good.

The Amsoil look like this
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u18/trex_101/P28-04-09_1759.jpg

Anyone have any opinions on Red Line oils?

I got it from performancelub.com as i used to get my redline lightweight shockproof gearoil and NGK iridium plugs from them for my Territory too. The Amsoil 5w30 is going for $17.50 per qt, i bought 6qt and left 1qt. Expensive but fuel consumption is good.

OK. Is that oil product code ASL?

Did they give you a price for good old 10W/40 AMO, or 5W/40 AFL?

Cheers,
Alan

OK. Is that oil product code ASL?

Did they give you a price for good old 10W/40 AMO, or 5W/40 AFL?

Cheers,
Alan

Yes i think so, it's stated as $17.50 per quart all types, anyway it's best you just call or email Harold on your enquiry, i'm sure he would be more than happy in answering your question. You can get him at 0414369926

Amsoil 100% series available with: ASL 5w30, ATM 10w30, AFL 5w40, AMO 10w40 & ARO 20w50

http://www.performancelub.com/Amsoil%20pricelist.htm

Yes i think so, it's stated as $17.50 per quart all types, anyway it's best you just call or email Harold on your enquiry, i'm sure he would be more than happy in answering your question. You can get him at 0414369926

Amsoil 100% series available with: ASL 5w30, ATM 10w30, AFL 5w40, AMO 10w40 & ARO 20w50

http://www.performancelub.com/Amsoil%20pricelist.htm

All Amsoil full synthetics will do a good job, better than most other brands of oil.

I personally like AMO 10W/40. It suits most applications and is the best all round oil you can buy. Its like Mobil 1 5W/50 in the Amsoil scheme of things but a much superior product.

The new AFL 5W/40 is getting a good reputation but I am yet to be convinced that its a better product.

The ASL 5W/30 you are using is a good oil too. Personally I'm not a fan of light grade oils. They are being pushed in the USA for fuel economy. My experience has been that compared to heavier mineral oils there is an economy gain, or in short trips where the oil doesn't get time to heat there is an economy gain, but if you generally do runs of more than 20 min the economy difference between say 5W/50 Mobil 1 and 5W/30 Mobil 1 is immeasurable.

In the extensive dyno testing I've done, and this was on rigs where we could see a difference of only 1 HP in a 800HP engine not like the 1-2% variation common in ordinary dynos, of the ordinary commercially available lubes Mobil 1 0W/40 consistently made the most HP by about 1% over 0W/20 Royal Purple and 1.5% over Castrol R(Edge) 10W/60 and Amsoil 10W/40. Mobil 1 5W/50, 10/30 and 0/20 was close behind and the other brand 0/20, 0/30 and 5/30 oils were all making less HP and that included Castrol Edge 0/30 and 5/30. These tests were carefully controlled to ensure same oil temp, and fuel was purchased in a single lot to last a full years testing plus some.

The power differences between oils generally indicate a difference in drag reduction, friction, and perhaps piston ring sealing ability. But friction is probably the main reason for HP differences. That means that most of the thinner oils were not reducing friction in the engine as well as some of the thicker grades. The 10/60 Castrol HP numbers were a real surprise. Less friction to make more HP also means less friction to save fuel so I don't see a fuel economy benefit simply from switching oil grades.

Unfortunately in America for an oil to get a fuel economy pass it must be graded either 0/20 or 0/30, nothing else qualifies for a fuel economy rating even if actual tests prove that a particular synthetic 10/40, 10/50 etc gives better economy than a mineral 0/20.

Europe is different which is why you see their fuel economy oils tend to be 0/40 or 5/40 grades.

What is not understood by most is that oil grading has very little to do with what actually takes place inside an engine. Oil grades are an artificial measurement of how an oil flows through a small hole. With heat and pressure in an engine the artificially numbered oil grade means little. In that environment molecules change shape and character (some change into different compounds, this was a big issue early on with synthetics suddenly breaking down and reverting back to their original pre-synthesised molecular structure which may have been animal fat for example, and is still not anything like fully understood. I still have an aversion to ester based, as opposed to PAO based, synthetics for this reason). This is what in fact makes castor bean vegetable oil such an incredible lubricant. The hotter it gets and the more shear loading its exposed to, the more the molecules change to provide higher and higher level of lubrication, resistance to shear. Sadly its incredibly dirty and produces massive amounts of varnish.

Cheers,
Alan

All Amsoil full synthetics will do a good job, better than most other brands of oil.

I personally like AMO 10W/40. It suits most applications and is the best all round oil you can buy. Its like Mobil 1 5W/50 in the Amsoil scheme of things but a much superior product.

The new AFL 5W/40 is getting a good reputation but I am yet to be convinced that its a better product.

The ASL 5W/30 you are using is a good oil too. Personally I'm not a fan of light grade oils. They are being pushed in the USA for fuel economy. My experience has been that compared to heavier mineral oils there is an economy gain, or in short trips where the oil doesn't get time to heat there is an economy gain, but if you generally do runs of more than 20 min the economy difference between say 5W/50 Mobil 1 and 5W/30 Mobil 1 is immeasurable.

In the extensive dyno testing I've done, and this was on rigs where we could see a difference of only 1 HP in a 800HP engine not like the 1-2% variation common in ordinary dynos, of the ordinary commercially available lubes Mobil 1 0W/40 consistently made the most HP by about 1% over 0W/20 Royal Purple and 1.5% over Castrol R(Edge) 10W/60 and Amsoil 10W/40. Mobil 1 5W/50, 10/30 and 0/20 was close behind and the other brand 0/20, 0/30 and 5/30 oils were all making less HP and that included Castrol Edge 0/30 and 5/30. These tests were carefully controlled to ensure same oil temp, and fuel was purchased in a single lot to last a full years testing plus some.

The power differences between oils generally indicate a difference in drag reduction, friction, and perhaps piston ring sealing ability. But friction is probably the main reason for HP differences. That means that most of the thinner oils were not reducing friction in the engine as well as some of the thicker grades. The 10/60 Castrol HP numbers were a real surprise. Less friction to make more HP also means less friction to save fuel so I don't see a fuel economy benefit simply from switching oil grades.

Unfortunately in America for an oil to get a fuel economy pass it must be graded either 0/20 or 0/30, nothing else qualifies for a fuel economy rating even if actual tests prove that a particular synthetic 10/40, 10/50 etc gives better economy than a mineral 0/20.

Europe is different which is why you see their fuel economy oils tend to be 0/40 or 5/40 grades.

What is not understood by most is that oil grading has very little to do with what actually takes place inside an engine. Oil grades are an artificial measurement of how an oil flows through a small hole. With heat and pressure in an engine the artificially numbered oil grade means little. In that environment molecules change shape and character (some change into different compounds, this was a big issue early on with synthetics suddenly breaking down and reverting back to their original pre-synthesised molecular structure which may have been animal fat for example, and is still not anything like fully understood. I still have an aversion to ester based, as opposed to PAO based, synthetics for this reason). This is what in fact makes castor bean vegetable oil such an incredible lubricant. The hotter it gets and the more shear loading its exposed to, the more the molecules change to provide higher and higher level of lubrication, resistance to shear. Sadly its incredibly dirty and produces massive amounts of varnish.

Cheers,
Alan

Wow Alan, this is too technical for me but this Amsoil 5w30 is currently giving me the best fuel economy ever couple with the increase in power i think(butt feel).

so the moral of the story is a magna is better off with amsoil 10w40 or if you cant get it mobil1 5w50?

so the moral of the story is a magna is better off with amsoil 10w40 or if you cant get it mobil1 5w50?

Yes, personally I think Amsoil 10W/40 is the better product, particularly for those who either hold onto their cars for 10 yrs or more, or do a lot of city stop/start and short runs of less than 20 min. That applies to basically any car with the usual production clearances, not just Magnas.

I currently use Mobil 1 5W/50 because I couldn't easily get Amsoil when I came back to Australia, and I don't particularly like Mobil 1 0W/40 except for use in competition engines. In a warm climate like here 5W/50 the best of the rest, generally easy to get and reasonably priced.

Cheers,
Alan

yeah after looking at the data im switching my family's cars over to mobil1 5w50..... any tradies know how much it is at trade?...retails at abou $80/5Lt

yeah after looking at the data im switching my family's cars over to mobil1 5w50..... any tradies know how much it is at trade?...retails at abou $80/5Lt

It is hard to get a better price at trade than getting it on special at Supercheap or sometimes Repco. Generally $65-70 normal and up to 20% discount is the best you will do. When its on special buy up enough.

$80 seems expensive, generally that is what 10W/30 and 0W/40 retail for. Maybe price has gone up recently with poor Euro to $ exchange.

Cheers,
Alan

that was the shelf price at repco
but hey ~$80 for 1 year on Mobil1 vs ~$70 for 1 year on Penrite HPR10.... who's gonna argue?

Nulon ESL (Engine Stop Leak) works suprisingly well if she's using oil or blowing smoke. A Ford Laser of someone I know was blowing smoke (the blue oil kind), particularly at takeoff, and it didn't matter what oil they used. After running that through it after a few hundred km no more smoke & no more oil burning! I reckon with the oil capacity of the magna you'd need two bottles though :S

Its not an oil thickner, its one of those that supposedly reconditions and softens seals, seems to work a treat. She didn't use it on the next oil change (with the same oil) and it still was fine, but since its fairly inexpensive a bottle of that goes in (as well as worn engine treatment).

How much oilcan a magna take? I usually put 3.8 -4lts in

that was the shelf price at repco
but hey ~$80 for 1 year on Mobil1 vs ~$70 for 1 year on Penrite HPR10.... who's gonna argue?

Yes exactly. As I keep saying, good oil is about the cheapest thing you can do for your car.

However be careful of long oil drain periods. I do mine every 12 mths/25,000 km, but I don't do many short runs under about 20 min, no stop/start traffic and very little idling, and the engine is in very good condition with low blow-by. Also I've had the oil analysed after draining to check its condition so know that the oil is still in good shape at 12 mths/25,000km.

Cheers,
Alan

well i do 20000km/year and most is cruising above 80km/hr
the insides of my engines are varnish free and the oil is never gummy, caramelised, foamy or smells burnt at a change
and my TJ is a LPG drinker now so things should only be better

Yes exactly. As I keep saying, good oil is about the cheapest thing you can do for your car.

However be careful of long oil drain periods. I do mine every 12 mths/25,000 km, but I don't do many short runs under about 20 min, no stop/start traffic and very little idling, and the engine is in very good condition with low blow-by. Also I've had the oil analysed after draining to check its condition so know that the oil is still in good shape at 12 mths/25,000km.

Cheers,
Alan

Alan, one question. I have read from BITOG that Amsoil has exceptional long life and i would like to do a once a year oil change on my 380. Is there anything i should worry about? yearly mileage estimate around 20k max.

I'm also sold after reading this article: https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1343.pdf

Alan, one question. I have read from BITOG that Amsoil has exceptional long life and i would like to do a once a year oil change on my 380. Is there anything i should worry about? yearly mileage estimate around 20k max.

I'm also sold after reading this article: https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1343.pdf


Oil life is part oil quality, part driving conditions, and part engine condition.

An engine in good condition with little blow by, operated for trips over about 20 mins mostly, with little idling and stop/start driving, generally above about 15 deg C air temp at start up and using a good synthetic will last 12mths/20,000 quite easily. Big operators like transport, airlines, mining etc do oil analysis to determine oil change intervals, and they routinely go over 12 mths between changes. In that time the engines have done huge km/hours operation.

For what I would call severe operation; short trips, stop/start traffic, lot of idling, cold weather, worn engine etc, I would say 10,000-15,000km/6-8mths. With the worst conditions the lower numbers. Good mineral oils would be totally exhausted at 3,000km/4mths in the same bad environment.

Cheers,
Alan

Another vote for Amsoil. I've used it in my Harley for years. I can use it in all 3 holes which is great. 1 oil fits all haha.

SA member the Amsoil rep is in Tailem Bend, he does regular deliveries to Adelaide, will post up details in the SA thread.

Another vote for Amsoil. I've used it in my Harley for years. I can use it in all 3 holes which is great. 1 oil fits all haha.

SA member the Amsoil rep is in Tailem Bend, he does regular deliveries to Adelaide, will post up details in the SA thread.

Hey Ange, how much does he charge for the Engine Oil? Do you reckon you could even arrange a group buy with us South Aussies and get it at a good price? But please post up details anyway in the SA Registry for all to see...Cheers.

Hey Ange, how much does he charge for the Engine Oil? Do you reckon you could even arrange a group buy with us South Aussies and get it at a good price? But please post up details anyway in the SA Registry for all to see...Cheers.

+1 :happy:

Hey Ange, how much does he charge for the Engine Oil? Do you reckon you could even arrange a group buy with us South Aussies and get it at a good price? But please post up details anyway in the SA Registry for all to see...Cheers.

Will do Bill. Sometimes when i change the oil i think "Damn i should re bottle it!"lol.

Another vote for Amsoil. I've used it in my Harley for years. I can use it in all 3 holes which is great. 1 oil fits all haha.

SA member the Amsoil rep is in Tailem Bend, he does regular deliveries to Adelaide, will post up details in the SA thread.

Hey Ange a harley would leak more than it burns though Hehehehe

Hey Ange a harley would leak more than it burns though Hehehehe

Too right, my old Shovel had more leaks than a Two Bob Hooker. My Evo is as tight as a Frogs Bung hole.:happy:

stupid question but i shall be doing an oil change on my tf in the next few days, where is the plug for it? i remember my dad doing it on his old falcons, but since he isn't around anymore im not sure :( cheers

stupid question but i shall be doing an oil change on my tf in the next few days, where is the plug for it? i remember my dad doing it on his old falcons, but since he isn't around anymore im not sure :( cheers


its under the engine, around the bottom edge the sump pan...

And to save you asking, its a 24mm plug. :)

And to save you asking, its a 24mm plug. :)

which is annoying because my socket set only went up to 20mm :(

so you might needa buy one from repco etc

Hey guys, what oil would you recommend for a tj sports with 120k on the clock doing very short trips all the time (5-10mins or 4.5km down the road to work, sit for 7hrs and come back) I do that 5 times a week at least.

I'm currently using magnatec 10w40, but I was thinking something lower might help to heat the engine up a bit quicker? I'm also getting pretty bad economy rates but I assume that is to do with my short trips.

Cheers Schplade.

Try 5w20 oil then, see if there's any FC gain.

Hey guys, what oil would you recommend for a tj sports with 120k on the clock doing very short trips all the time (5-10mins or 4.5km down the road to work, sit for 7hrs and come back) I do that 5 times a week at least.

I'm currently using magnatec 10w40, but I was thinking something lower might help to heat the engine up a bit quicker? I'm also getting pretty bad economy rates but I assume that is to do with my short trips.

Cheers Schplade.

Best economy comes from friction modified synthetic oil, but driving such short runs won't have much effect on economy. You need a good quality oil such as Mobil 1 5W/50 to reduce engine wear as short trips are a killer for rings and top of cylinders. As the engine has only a few km you should try filling to just above the low line on the dipstick to reduce oil volume and help the oil heat up more quickly.

Cheers,
Alan

Best economy comes from friction modified synthetic oil, but driving such short runs won't have much effect on economy. You need a good quality oil such as Mobil 1 5W/50 to reduce engine wear as short trips are a killer for rings and top of cylinders. As the engine has only a few km you should try filling to just above the low line on the dipstick to reduce oil volume and help the oil heat up more quickly.

Cheers,
Alan

From what i have read from BITOG, w20 oil is the best for short trip since the oil can hardly ever heat up to temperature. 5w50 start up viscosity is too thick and will cause alot of drag thus inefficiency during this short period of travel. Is this theory about right?

Mobil 5w50
cSt@40'c - 104.6
Mobil 5w50 (http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-50.asp)

Redline 5w20
cSt@40'c - 55
RL 5w20 (http://www.redlineoil.com/pdf/4.pdf)

You see, I don't agree with this statement. I am a firm believer of driving a car as soon as the engine is switched on. Oil all the way down in the sump will take a while to circulate up through the oil galleries for lubrication of critical components. Leaving a car idling will extend this time, meaning parts are not being lubricated properly whilst it is stationary. having the car move through the rev range for the first few minutes of a cold engine being switched on will cause the oil to circulate faster to necessary places.

no. no. no.

the oil pump generates oil pressure as soon as engine spins, you driving it or the car idling has no effect on how soon the oil may get to the rest of the engine.

if you are so concerned with the speed in when your engine gets all the oil, you must rev the thing silly when its cold, which is no good for the engine.
sure the oil pressure will increase with rpm, but i don't think that difference matters.

It's fine to drive it right away, just be gentle for about 10 mins, that way the car can get to "normal operating temperature".

Where are you buying it and how much?

I actually like Amsoil but its hard to get easily and some importers get it in bulk and then decant it into used containers for sale.

Have a look on the pack and give me the full description of the label as Amsoil make a few different brews of 5W/30.



We tested Royal Purple in the big run of HP tests a few years back. The engine survived but was down on power so we never investigated Royal Purple any further. But like many oils its a very hyped up trendy product and in my mind overpriced.

For general heavy duty use Mobil 1 5W/50 is hard to beat. Mobil 1 0W/40 is the HP king by quite a margin but is a lot more expensive, it loses more viscosity in shear and it evaporates faster at high temp.

Cheers,
Alan

Alan, you sound like you know your shlt... :thumbsup:
But i find it hard to believe that you change every 20,000kms, isn't that too much.

I was a Mitsubishi mechanic for a year, and yes their goal is to make money, but 20,000 is a standard driver's one year term! Unless you drive a lot, but still 20?!

I was told by someone who worked in the oil industry, that MOBIL make 'the best oil'. Even best petrol, he said.
I bought Mobil 3000 semi syn to try out, what do you think of that one?

Every single dealership i've worked in used Castrol Magnatec, it wasn't off the shelf stuff, but it was semi synthetic. with diff viscosity.

I actually have a therostat switch wrapped around my oil filter, and it is wired into a circuit with an LED.

When the thermostat reaches 70C it cuts the circuit, hence turning off the light. I am very proud of it, but seems that 70 is not enough?

I can take photos and post more info for people who want to make one. its really simple.

You see, I don't agree with this statement. I am a firm believer of driving a car as soon as the engine is switched on. Oil all the way down in the sump will take a while to circulate up through the oil galleries for lubrication of critical components. Leaving a car idling will extend this time, meaning parts are not being lubricated properly whilst it is stationary. having the car move through the rev range for the first few minutes of a cold engine being switched on will cause the oil to circulate faster to necessary places.

no. no. no.

the oil pump generates oil pressure as soon as engine spins, you driving it or the car idling has no effect on how soon the oil may get to the rest of the engine.

if you are so concerned with the speed in when your engine gets all the oil, you must rev the thing silly when its cold, which is no good for the engine.
sure the oil pressure will increase with rpm, but i don't think that difference matters.

y.

I actually have a therostat switch wrapped around my oil filter, and it is wired into a circuit with an LED.

When the thermostat reaches 70C it cuts the circuit, hence turning off the light. I am very proud of it, but seems that 70 is not enough?

I can take photos and post more info for people who want to make one. its really simple.

I'd be interested in this wonderful temp sensing device you have made and installed...Please post the details.

I'd be interested in this wonderful temp sensing device you have made and installed...Please post the details.

ok, i'll talk first.

go to jaycar and buy:
opening circuit thermostat
wiring
led (your choice of colour)
resistor to suit 12V to led (they can work it out)
coil spring with looped rings at each end.

solder LED and resistor to wiring
i think i hooked mine up to ignition(reds)
so just tap into power
run wiring through firewall
run to oil filter
solder to thermostat or connect, as long as its secure
wrap thermostat around oil filter with coil spring (its never fallen for me and my car is low and has an awful ride)
hopefully you ran 2 wires thorugh the first time..
the 'returning' wire will be earth/ground

as mentioned, coolant temp is designed to warm up as fast as possible (emissions/economy) with the aid of the themostat(coolant).

the engine oil doesn't have such a control system, so on a normal day, it can take up to 10 mins to 'warm' to a decent temp.

tell family and friends to go easy in 1st 10 mins, and in most cars, guage is only coolant temp in dash.

Just to comment on the viscosity range of oils, although I'm no petro-chemical expert ...

For a multi-grade oil, the first number indicates the viscosity at low temperatures, the second indicates the viscosity at high temperatures. So, the lower the first number, the thinner it is at low temperatures (to help with cold start-up), & the higher the second number is, the thicker it is at high temperatures (to keep the lubrication quality).

So, for example, a 10w30 is thicker at low temperatures and thinner at high temperatures than a 5w50.

I wouldn't just rely on the technical viscosity range though, because oils are not all created equal. Mobil 1 5w50, for example, is likely to be a heap better than a budget alternative with the same rating. Generally, you get what you pay for.

Just to comment on the viscosity range of oils, although I'm no petro-chemical expert ...

For a multi-grade oil, the first number indicates the viscosity at low temperatures, the second indicates the viscosity at high temperatures. So, the lower the first number, the thinner it is at low temperatures (to help with cold start-up), & the higher the second number is, the thicker it is at high temperatures (to keep the lubrication quality).

So, for example, a 10w30 is thicker at low temperatures and thinner at high temperatures than a 5w50.

I wouldn't just rely on the technical viscosity range though, because oils are not all created equal. Mobil 1 5w50, for example, is likely to be a heap better than a budget alternative with the same rating. Generally, you get what you pay for.

Not true, you have to see which temperature you are interested in? Let have an example

Mobil 1 10w30
cSt@40'c - 62
cSt@100'c - 10
VI - 147
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_10W-30.asp

Mobil 1 5w50
cSt@40'c - 104.6
cSt@100'c - 17.4
VI - 184
http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-50.asp

Using this program: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3655/VI.html
You could estimate the Viscosity at certain temperature, let's say 5'c

Mobil 1 10w30 @5'c - 416cSt
Mobil 1 5w50 @5'c - 606cSt

Mobil 1 10w30 still flow faster than Mobil 1 5w50 @ 5'c

Let's calculate at -10'c
Mobil 1 10w30@-10'c - 1332cSt
Mobil 1 5w50@-10'c - 1709cSt

Mobil 1 10w30 still flow faster at -10'c

Even though the viscosity curve is not linear, it's still quite good an estimate using this program. According to SAE testing, 5w must meet certain flow limits at -30'c and 10w at -25'c, so on theory 5w should flow better at -30'c while 10w.

Alan, you sound like you know your shlt... :thumbsup:
But i find it hard to believe that you change every 20,000kms, isn't that too much.

I was a Mitsubishi mechanic for a year, and yes their goal is to make money, but 20,000 is a standard driver's one year term! Unless you drive a lot, but still 20?!

I was told by someone who worked in the oil industry, that MOBIL make 'the best oil'. Even best petrol, he said.
I bought Mobil 3000 semi syn to try out, what do you think of that one?

Every single dealership i've worked in used Castrol Magnatec, it wasn't off the shelf stuff, but it was semi synthetic. with diff viscosity.

I actually have a therostat switch wrapped around my oil filter, and it is wired into a circuit with an LED.

When the thermostat reaches 70C it cuts the circuit, hence turning off the light. I am very proud of it, but seems that 70 is not enough?

I can take photos and post more info for people who want to make one. its really simple.

As I've said many times its not distance that kills oil. The industry needs a simple number that anyone can understand and then advise that as the correct oil change period.

To see the foolishness of such a notion compare the rpm at 100kph of a V8 and a little 4 cyl car. The V8 might be doing 1500rpm and the 4 cyl 3000rpm, but both will be assigned the same 15,000 km oil change period in all probability. This, even though the little engine has turned over twice as many times, and with modern long stroke 4s, the pistons/rings have traveled close to twice distance too. Plus the little engine is working hard all the time.

Also as I've said many times 15,000 km is too far for ordinary mineral oils. For most cars it should be 7,500km/6 mths maximum. Those doing mainly highway running with a unworn engine can go 10,000/9 mths.

I actually change my oil at 25,000km/12mths. Again as I've said many times I don't do any city driving, no stop/start, no short trips under 20 min, no idling etc, so life is pretty easy for the engine and the oil. Plus I have had it analysed so I know what condition the oil is in, and in fact it could go longer. I use a good synthetic with no polymer VI improvers and a top rate additive package. Thats why when I've pulled them down with 400,000km on them I've only just lightly honed the bores, fitted new rings, turned the bearings over and put it all back together.

What hurts oil the most are cold starts, so the more frequently you start an engine with cold oil the faster the oil depletes its additive package. Plus the engine wears faster so even with less km on the clock its knocking the oil around faster like an old engine because of increased blow-by.

Its a rather bold statement "the best" without any qualification. Mobil 1 oils are good.... but. If you want power then 0W/40 is the drop for you, BUT its not the best all rounder. Something like 10W/40 would be, BUT blended using similar base to 5W/50, not the base used in 0W/40. The closest we've got in Australia is 5W/50. Thats OK for our warmer climate. It what I use, BUT if I could get it more easily I'd be using Amsoil 10W/40(AMO).

Your oil temp switch is a good idea. Oil begins to work satisfactorily at 70 deg C, so at that temp you can start leaning on the engine a bit more. However the ideal for wear/HP/economy is closer to 95-105 C.

Cheers,
Alan

Just to comment on the viscosity range of oils, although I'm no petro-chemical expert ...

For a multi-grade oil, the first number indicates the viscosity at low temperatures, the second indicates the viscosity at high temperatures. So, the lower the first number, the thinner it is at low temperatures (to help with cold start-up), & the higher the second number is, the thicker it is at high temperatures (to keep the lubrication quality).

So, for example, a 10w30 is thicker at low temperatures and thinner at high temperatures than a 5w50.

I wouldn't just rely on the technical viscosity range though, because oils are not all created equal. Mobil 1 5w50, for example, is likely to be a heap better than a budget alternative with the same rating. Generally, you get what you pay for.

The numbers game! Sometimes doesn't mean much. Please go back to my post #19 in this section for more details so I don't have to repeat them.

Cheers,
Alan

As I've said many times its not distance that kills oil. The industry needs a simple number that anyone can understand and then advise that as the correct oil change period.

To see the foolishness of such a notion compare the rpm at 100kph of a V8 and a little 4 cyl car. The V8 might be doing 1500rpm and the 4 cyl 3000rpm, but both will be assigned the same 15,000 km oil change period in all probability. This, even though the little engine has turned over twice as many times, and with modern long stroke 4s, the pistons/rings have traveled close to twice distance too. Plus the little engine is working hard all the time.

Also as I've said many times 15,000 km is too far for ordinary mineral oils. For most cars it should be 7,500km/6 mths maximum. Those doing mainly highway running with a unworn engine can go 10,000/9 mths.

I actually change my oil at 25,000km/12mths. Again as I've said many times I don't do any city driving, no stop/start, no short trips under 20 min, no idling etc, so life is pretty easy for the engine and the oil. Plus I have had it analysed so I know what condition the oil is in, and in fact it could go longer. I use a good synthetic with no polymer VI improvers and a top rate additive package. Thats why when I've pulled them down with 400,000km on them I've only just lightly honed the bores, fitted new rings, turned the bearings over and put it all back together.

What hurts oil the most are cold starts, so the more frequently you start an engine with cold oil the faster the oil depletes its additive package. Plus the engine wears faster so even with less km on the clock its knocking the oil around faster like an old engine because of increased blow-by.

Its a rather bold statement "the best" without any qualification. Mobil 1 oils are good.... but. If you want power then 0W/40 is the drop for you, BUT its not the best all rounder. Something like 10W/40 would be, BUT blended using similar base to 5W/50, not the base used in 0W/40. The closest we've got in Australia is 5W/50. Thats OK for our warmer climate. It what I use, BUT if I could get it more easily I'd be using Amsoil 10W/40(AMO).

Your oil temp switch is a good idea. Oil begins to work satisfactorily at 70 deg C, so at that temp you can start leaning on the engine a bit more. However the ideal for wear/HP/economy is closer to 95-105 C.

Cheers,
Alan

thanks for that.

it does make sense. then your blood will boil when cars come in for service only on time schedules then.(i.e. little mileage, but time passing by).

my switch is a cheap alternative to a guage.

would you suggest a higher cut off switch? i must admit i have opened up the taps soon after ~70C.

thanks for that.

it does make sense. then your blood will boil when cars come in for service only on time schedules then.(i.e. little mileage, but time passing by).

my switch is a cheap alternative to a guage.

would you suggest a higher cut off switch? i must admit i have opened up the taps soon after ~70C.

Yes very sad. Even sadder is the fact so few mechanics/service managers know any different to set the customer straight and tell them to come in sooner and just change the oil and leave the full book service to due time.

In the bad old days of race car engines the instructions to drivers was always to the effect of "run around bedding brakes, etc and keep the revs and engine load down until the oil temp goes above 70 C. After that you can get into it." That was fairly good advice as engines were a lot more "loose" then. (Now top line race engines are preheated before they are even turned over. Some are not even be manually turned over without preheating and some are kept heated even when in the transporter and back at the workshop to avoid head/block movement/seal issues). With modern "tight" engines I think you want the oil closer to 80-85C before you give it any stick on mineral oil. With a mid weight full synthetic(10W/40, 5W/50) the oil will do a good job much cooler so the old 70C figure before working the engine hard is not a bad idea.

Cheers,
Alan

go to jaycar and buy:
opening circuit thermostat
wiring
led (your choice of colour)
resistor to suit 12V to led (they can work it out)
coil spring with looped rings at each end.

solder LED and resistor to wiring
i think i hooked mine up to ignition(reds)
so just tap into power
run wiring through firewall
run to oil filter
solder to thermostat or connect, as long as its secure
wrap thermostat around oil filter with coil spring (its never fallen for me and my car is low and has an awful ride)
hopefully you ran 2 wires thorugh the first time..
the 'returning' wire will be earth/ground


thats a really good kit you got goin there mate
can i add a suggestion, of would it be worthwhile attaching the (normally closed) thermostat to the oil filter housing, by heatsink cement? or by even attching it behind the sump pan, (facing the rear of the car), as this has a nice flat surface to attach the thermostat to,

thats a really good kit you got goin there mate
can i add a suggestion, of would it be worthwhile attaching the (normally closed) thermostat to the oil filter housing, by heatsink cement? or by even attching it behind the sump pan, (facing the rear of the car), as this has a nice flat surface to attach the thermostat to,

that's not bad... as the contact will be more thorough.

cb stuffed atm though. my high mount has fallen off for months now, haven;t had time to do anything.!

I use full synthetic oil and do oil changes every 7500km and change the oil filter each time. 50% of my driving is in heavy traffic and the rest is realtively easy, driving home late at night, so not stop start, but some idling at lights. Question is why not change oil filter every 1500km?? Surely by 7500km the filter is not really dirty. I understand that if a filter gets clogged, the by-pass wil operte, which is bad news.

If a motor is in good condition, can a filter go 15000km?

Actually you need some mileage on the oil filter for maximum filter efficiency, your filter actually work best after certain mileage. Let me do a search, see if i can find the actual efficiency graph.

if you are so concerned with the speed in when your engine gets all the oil, you must rev the thing silly when its cold, which is no good for the engine.


hell no :nuts:

I use full synthetic oil and do oil changes every 7500km

in my opinion thats over servicing the car.. a full synth oil will last 15,000km under the conditions you described

in my opinion thats over servicing the car.. a full synth oil will last 15,000km under the conditions you described

Over servicing? :roflwtf:

Explain to me how changing the oil more frequently is going to be to the detriment of the car?

I think Gremln means over servicing as in wasting money, like you wouldnt change a semi syn at 3500km, so why change a fully syn at 7500km?

Dry start after the oil change. You do notice that everytime you startup after fresh oil change, it takes a couple of seconds before the oil pressure symbol is off.

I think Gremln means over servicing as in wasting money, like you wouldnt change a semi syn at 3500km, so why change a fully syn at 7500km?

exactly


its going to do no harm at all to the car... just a waste of money

hell, service the car every 1000kms if u really want... your just throwing away perfectly good synthetic oil, in my opinion

and polluting the earth with waste oil or the residual unrecycable components of the oil

Doing the math on synthetic oils it would appear that they are better value for money all round if you are doing longer trips. I am now convinced and am changing over (another hard headed stubborn, cynical old coot has seen the light).They may be twice the price or thereabouts but you get more than twice the distance out of the synthetic than you do out of mineral oil and better protection to boot. On top of this you lessen your costs of downtime and labour. I have been running up until now Magnatec and changing it between 8000-12000 km depending on the driving (mainly highway k's). I have also been running Nulon PTFE additive with each change. This bonds to the friction running surfaces to create a coating to lessen wear. I recently sold a 4 cylinder nissan that had done 375000 km. Compression tests prior to sale showed it had retained excellent and even compression across all cylinders for its age (sorry I cant find the figures). As I had geographically embarrassed my compression tester I had to drop into the local mechanics workshop (and no I am not a rep for Nulon!). He was really impressed and did a double take on the mileage. I guess the point is that saving money on cheap oil and not doing oil changes when necessary is false economy. Engine rebuilds are very costly and mean that you will be without your vehicle for some time.
I would have liked to have pulled the old girl down to have a look at the bore, rings and bearings to see what they were like!!

I have just dropped some Nulon 10w40 Hi fllow synthetic into the 380. As per normal I will add the E20 nulon additive too. I like supporting an aussie company and have always found their products very good. We will see if it stacks up to Alan J's 20,000 oil change idea. It was around $64 for 6 litres from supercheap. It will be interesting to note any changes.

If you are going to run synthetics and take advantage of the extended drain intervals they offer, can I suggest you change the oil filter at the usual oil change intervals? I am suspicious of the tiny filter on these cars and I am almost certain my TW goes into bypass on the oil filter at around 10k kms. I run synthetic oil so change it out at 15k kms, but I am now changing the filter at 7500kms, mid oil change interval.
The reason I suspect the oil filter was clogging and bypassing is that since I have started changing the filter at 7500kms, the noisy lifters when hot thing is not happening any more......
My next step is a remote filter with a big, old fashioned Z9 filter or similar (or maybe even a dual filter kit). You can get a longer filter for the stock Magna filter pad, but it's only 20mm or so longer, not worth the hassle.
Another advantage of going to a Z9 or similar filter is you can buy 12 packs of Purolator Pure One filters in this size for $40 to your door.
As for changing oils on time intervals, it is necessary on engines that don't do long runs or do a lot of commuting. Oil breaking down is not the only issue with regards oil changes. Contaminants and condensation need to be evaporated out of the oil during normal operation (that's what the PCV system is for) and cars that do short trips often do not get the engine up to temperature, and if they do, they aren't there for long enough. Even when an engine is just sitting there doing nothing, the changes in atmospheric temperature outside the engine can and do cause condensation inside the engine.
This is one of the biggest causes of sludge formation in engines. As an example, my motorcycle and Volvo never do more than about 6-9k kms a year. Both get the oil changed autumn and spring, for the reason I mentioned above. They both live on diesel mineral oil, due to the fact they never get even close to causing excessive viscosity or additive depletion in their oils, but are changed to remove contaimniants, on a time rather than mileage schedule.

Regards, Andrew.

Found this article after trying to research the benefit of PTFE used in motor oil, interesting read: http://www.carbibles.com/snakeoil.html

Those additives in the article have teflon which is still pretty chunky, the Nulon one is significantly smaller. Unlike imported products which seem to be able to have significantly lower quality than local products#, Australian products for legal reasons kind of have to live up to their claims!...

#Imported products don't have to meet the same standards as Australian products. The worst example of this is food items. where you can go to Woolies and Coles and buy fish grown in sewage water from Vietnam, or get oyster sauce (that contains oysters of course) that was grown in industrial effluent outlet waters. Funny thing is the oyster industry gets shut down in the cleaniest water area of Australia on an occasion or two, as oysters are very susceptible to water quality. Imported food can have chemicals in them that are banned in Australia, and these filter through to the consumer either as fully imported products or products that are essentially imported products packages here (like that crappy reconstituted orange juice which most OJ is). Food can even have trace amounts of DDT and other nasty chemicals, if they're imported...!

This relates to additives as they are not all the same, you just have to separate the companies that are in it to (mostly) just make a profit or genuine companies that have the philosophy of both providing the best products for the consumer and making a profit :)

ie.
Natures Organics Shampoo/conditioner --> High quality, low cost, Australian made & owned. You're not paying 100 percent markup for the brand. Its actually better than stuff that costs 4x as much as a female friend of mine found out :)

Apart from all that rubbish about imported crap, the oil you buy of the shelf should be fine without excess additives, otherwise they would have been added to the oil and sold as a better version of the oil a huge markup

Hi all, thought I would add my latest experience.

Had my TL serviced 7 weeks ago and used Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 and found my engine got very tappety and noisy, after being quiet prior.

I dropped the oil today and replaced it with Penrite Everyday 10W40 100% synthetic and no noise and runs really well, and at $49 not hard on the hip pocket compared to other 100% synthetic oils, and even semi synths like HPR, Motul, etc.

I feel more confident now when I go on a road trip with a 10 weight and from my experience I felt for my car the 5 weight was too thin.

i do find the 5w's a little thin when cold and not drive for a couple of days, i get tappet noises in my TL with 107000km but didn't have any noise in my previous TF with 186000km when i sold it.

i've been putting 5w or 10w and had no problems at all.

i've been putting 5w or 10w and had no problems at all.

i got 5w-30 in the TL, its only after a couple of days of not driving that i'll get noise for about 20-30 secs at most, otherwise its alright. But like mentioned earlier had 5w-50 in the TF and no noise, I just wondering is it partly due to the slightly more aggressive cams in the TL that may play a small part. Perhaps someone with knowledge may shed some light on that.

I runs Penrite HPR5 5W-40, engine seems to like it. It rattles for a second or two on a cold start and it ticks when warm but that's because the lifters are buggered, not the oil.

I use Penrite HPR10... engine is smooth as a .............. <- fill in blank

I'm probably going to run Mobil 1 5w50 in mine like Alan suggested. I've done 1,500km on the "Aegis" oil supplied by the mechanic who did the presale service on my car. Now I only have to decide what filter to use. Any suggestions guys?

5w are the cold viscosity and in fact the lower the better (0w) which improve startup protection, the thickness of the oil are the number behind. Be it a 0w40 or a 15w40, they are still a 40 weight viscosity oil at 100'c engine operating temperature.