well, dads nissan patrol 4.2L turbo diesel needs another service due to extreamly low power output.
after 2000kms since the last service.
for about the last year now, dads car has been plaged with the same problem, and keeps on getting fixed.
this time however, it needs $4000 worth of work on the fueling system.
clean/new injectors, fuel pump overhall, new filters, remove 2 tanks, to be cleaned, and lines need to be cleaned.
we took a sample of diesel. from the tank. and found this! wat is ment to be a blueish liquid, was horrible containimation with brown sludge.
dads work gets the fuel from the local BP, who is surposed to be ,mates with dad. this sample was from dads car.
the other work car was even worse, it had a layer, of what looked like water in it. which is death to diesel engines.
we decided to get the $4000 worth of repairs done, and going to send BP the bill.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn177/lowridermagna/09042009.jpg

incredible. a friend actually told me a few weeks/months ago that the BP around the corner from my house mixes water with their fuel to increase profits, i thought it was just a rumour...

never going to BP again!

Is it worth buying a litre of diesel from a couple of different BP outlets, and seeing if they're all the same? If only the fuel from the station you regularly buy from is dodgy, then either they're cutting it, or the storage tank is faulty.

we know the owner, and dont think they are cutting it, its the storage tanks, with the filth in them.
wont matter, he wont do anything about it if we tell him.

Wow, i only trust BP for petrol, never go anywhere else, no matter what the price.
Looks like they may be a bit dodgy as well.

incredible. a friend actually told me a few weeks/months ago that the BP around the corner from my house mixes water with their fuel to increase profits, i thought it was just a rumour...

never going to BP again!

Mate no petrol station does that :nuts: it can get in there from anything crack in the tank etc.

Unlucky mate hope you get money out of them, very rarely will they do anything i know i work for one. But that is some horrible looking "fuel" best of luck

sucks - but keep in mind, BP have a fuel guarentee on thier products.

you must purchase most of your fuel from a BP branded servo tho.

by the sounds of it, you get all yours from thier
ring the BP customer helpline before spending any of your own money on the patrol, they may require to inspect the vehicle otherwise they wont pay a cent for the repairs.

Doddski is correct.

Should have reported this straight to BP, as any major company can be a bastard to get money out of in cases like this.

Take a sample and send it to them, take lots of pictures, your mechanic to write a report, receipts of diesel bought there would be great aswell.

incredible. a friend actually told me a few weeks/months ago that the BP around the corner from my house mixes water with their fuel to increase profits, i thought it was just a rumour...

never going to BP again!

Whoever started this rumour is an idiot.

Water and petrol cannot, and will not mix (except for in very, very small quantities).

Doddski is correct.

Should have reported this straight to BP, as any major company can be a bastard to get money out of in cases like this.

Take a sample and send it to them, take lots of pictures, your mechanic to write a report, receipts of diesel bought there would be great aswell.

Yeh that works to a point, best bet if he has a fuel card with BP he will be able to prove how often he fills up the car there, and even better if the card monitors the odometer you should be able to prove exactly how often you fill up there. Even still will be lucky to get money from them, may get lucky and pay up to keep it quiet

Doddski is correct.

Should have reported this straight to BP, as any major company can be a bastard to get money out of in cases like this.

Take a sample and send it to them, take lots of pictures, your mechanic to write a report, receipts of diesel bought there would be great aswell.

yeah, the station they go to, is part of a buisness deal, where they get all their fuel for the fleet, there, so it can be charged to the company for tax decleration.
so the fuels cant have come from anywhere else, just sucks cuz dads car, is his own private vehicle, not the companies

Whoever started this rumour is an idiot.

Water and petrol cannot, and will not mix (except for in very, very small quantities).

exactly

petrol (unleaded etc) is LIGHTER than water, it will float above the water (if any in the tank)
the pickups for the fuel are not dead on the base of the tanks either, they are higher in the tank, to allow for any water ingression to the tank.
working at one (bp) we had 200 litres of water in the Super tank - but the manager said thats ok, coz its still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaay below the pickup and not of concern until it gets to about 350L of water in the tank!!!!

not sure about deisel tho - does it float on water? would think so being oil based.

kero floats on water so i believe deisel does too

The majority of petroleum products have a density less than water, so float on water.

All fuel storages except for aircraft contain water. As the fuel level falls and cools any water vapour in the air is condensed and forms water drops in the top of the tank. As the drops grow in size they fall into the fuel and sink.

However even if the bowser pickups are above the water level when a new load of fuel is dumped in the water and fuel emulsifies to a degree so if you get fuel within a few hours of a tanker dumping fuel you get water and sludge in the fuel you purchase. Only after the water and fuel have separated will you be free of water contamination. Water gets in too through joints in underground pipes in wet weather or if the water table is high.

The servo proprietor is to blame usually for this sort of problem, or if supplied by a distributor it could be the distributor has contaminated storage. Fuel companies normally filter all fuel transfers within their system.

Cheers,
Alan

exactly

petrol (unleaded etc) is LIGHTER than water, it will float above the water (if any in the tank)


not sure about deisel tho - does it float on water? would think so being oil based.Immiscible is the word you're after.

Not good to hear about your Dads Patrol.
Unfortunately contaminated diesel is quite common, take a look at some 4wd forums and you'll see what I mean.
We have often had problems with fuel suppliers at work (with our loaders & excavators) and some of these mongrels already have the fuel companies 'prepared response' regarding this.... they know about this.
Komatsu (http://www.komatsu.com.au/komatsuworld/news/genuineAdvice/Pages/Dieselfuelcontaminationandfuelfilterplugging.aspx) have some good info regarding this problem.
If you're a member you might also want to let the NRMA know about this, they might have some advice about this.
Hope it all goes well.

ok well the main issure here was the sludge, not the water, the sample we took from the tank, had 3 layers, but if shook it it would all mix into a brown goo. only after leaving it for a while, did the 3 layers of sludge, clear fluid, (which i assumed water), and brown diesiel would show.
the constant movement of the car, would keep this all mixed. and go through the engine.
if BP doesnt want to pay up for the repairs, i told dad to also slug them the cost of the constant servicing that the car has been throught for the past year, and also the fuel bill for driving down the coast when we had to leave our carravan behind, cuz the gunk had stuffed the filters, and the car didnt have enough power to bring it home.
that is amongst other, costs involved.
so if worst comes to worst, department of fair trading will come in.
cant just drive into your local servo, fill up, and be floged with a $4000 bill

The majority of petroleum products have a density less than water, so float on water.

All fuel storages except for aircraft contain water. As the fuel level falls and cools any water vapour in the air is condensed and forms water drops in the top of the tank. As the drops grow in size they fall into the fuel and sink.


:stoopid: My brother-in-law use to be pretty high up the ranks for a large petrol supplier and told me that all tanks contain water in it

but he said if you ever take a sample and try fight your case they will not accept it because the container/jar/can whatever you use would have also contaminated the product, I'll ask him what you can do to be able to get some sort of compensation from them.

Cheers,

Andrew

Distillate - the correct term for the fuel, diesel is the engine! is actually an environment that quite readily supports different bacteria and fungi. If you fill up 200 litres worth of distillate and leave it sitting in the tank for several months, the bacteria and fungi can create sludge and other nasties in the tank! The same goes for the petrol stations, although the turnover is hopefully high enough that 'diesel bug' isn't so much an issue. Google it - its not an unknown problem!

A two second quick google search lead me to this article:
http://www.oillab.co.nz/diesel_bug_explained

Diesels have a water separator that actually shows if there is water present in the fuel. I'm pretty sure its standard on the patrol and on other diesel vehicles. Of course, the fuel and water don't mix, but travelling along some mixing and uptake to the engine takes place! If there is water in the filter separation area, then an emptying of the fuel tank would be a very wise move, not just replacing the filter and cleaning the injectors and hoping for the best! The water provides an improved environment for the problematic bacteria/fungi.

There are several diesel biocides on the market, it might be an idea to keep an eye on the water separator in the future (or install one, they're inexpensive), and use a biocide in the reserve tank (a bottle general treats a large amount of fuel, like 50ml/100L).

If it is an older patrol (pre 2000), and especially if its a GQ, it is highly recommended to use an additive that is suitable for suphur fuel replacement. Distillate now is required to have very little sulphur in it, at 50ppm (some have even less), which isn't good for older engines - and even some reasonably recent engines!

Again, google the following:
low sulphur diesel fuel
low sulphur distillate fuel
low sulfur diesel fuel
low sulfur distillate fuel

The last two necessary because American's (and hence a lot of other English speaking areas) can't spell - and yes you'll get 4 sets of different search results!

Engines will require either a rebuild or use of a suitable additive. Its always the good stuff that gets banned, first lead (lead raised fuel octane), and now sulphur (seal lubrication)!

yeah, its a 2003 GU seriers 2 patrol, it is fitted with a water seperator, and a warning light does show, if water level is too high, our paticular sampple out of the patrol did not contain water, but sludge.
and it didnt come from our car cuz we use the addative that prevents the bacteria from growing. but cuz the car is being used everyday, the likely hood of the growth is very small.

:stoopid: My brother-in-law use to be pretty high up the ranks for a large petrol supplier and told me that all tanks contain water in it

but he said if you ever take a sample and try fight your case they will not accept it because the container/jar/can whatever you use would have also contaminated the product, I'll ask him what you can do to be able to get some sort of compensation from them.

Cheers,

Andrew

with the amount of sludge in that sample, there is no way in hell you could seriously blame the jar being dirty. its the whole fleet of work cars, so i cant see how they could have an excuse for every car not to pay, especially when they know that the cars only recieved their fuel from that servo, and no where else

I also used to work in the fuel industry and these things can happen through nothing sinister or deliberate. I have seen customers compensated for water in fuel so it is worth making a claim.

My only tip for your dad is to avoid filling up when the petrol tanker is at the station. Any dirt and sludge in the tank is being stirred up when the fuel is being delivered and may be transferred to the bottom of your tank in the car.

When diesel engined vehicles were a "work" vehicle the owners generally knew and understood, or soon found out, the problems associated with diesel usage. Today most don't have a clue. They use it for good fuel mileage and don't understand all the extra care, maintenance and expense involved. They think diesels are tough and maintenance free. The reality is quite the opposite, particularly with modern high performance diesels. Diesels need much more regular and more costly maintenance than modern petrol engines.

The manufacturers are partly to blame too. They sell diesels as economical but don't educate buyers of the negatives. Manufacturers need to spell out clearly the need to frequently drain/clean the separator even if visually it looks OK. But how many owners would do it and put up with the stink of diesel about them for days? Same with filters, how many change them when specified? Most got diesels in the first place to save money, so spend the minimum they can get away with on maintenance.

Apparently some manufacturers don't even fit separators any more?

To find diesel free of sludge is like finding a pub full of guys drinking bottled water! Remember it takes just one drop of water anywhere in the diesel storage system to get any of about 2 dozen different nasties growing at a rapid rate. For some varieties in the right environment a single cell can grow into something approaching jelly fish size in a day. Big operators understand the implications and install special filtering on their storage facilities and then insist that before any machine is parked and shut down that the tank is filled to minimise any chance of condensation in the tank. Then the separators are drained and cleaned frequently. Even after taking these precautions they still occasionally have problems.

Cheers,
Alan

Whoever started this rumour is an idiot.

Water and petrol cannot, and will not mix (except for in very, very small quantities).

bit of a contradiction there, petroleum base and water base are immiscable as stated before, no matter the quantity.

just want to try and clear up any confusion concerning contamination and servos

water contamination in petrol is uncommon (obviously not in this case) but it does happen. although what many beleive to be cases of water contamination is simply, unrefined oil.. which is fault of the company.
as stated, water contamination is rare and ill explain why.
my old man used to work at the terminal and refinary for caltex and i was with hima few times so i have a bit of knowhow in the area.

the refining process is fairly complex to describe so ill pass on that this time, but after transport, the fuel is put into deep underground tanks under the servo. these tanks have a few features;
a) a breather or snorkel which you'll see next time you refuel poking out of the ground somewhere on the permises.
b) inline filters and water traps
c) a depth cut off system

so

A) the breather is self explanatory, it allows outside air in so you can fill up your tank without creating a vacuum in the servo's tank. The breather has spiral lines, filters and traps, for obvious reasons.

B) inline filters and water traps. Again very self explanatory.. i shouldnt have to elaborate here

C) Depth cut off system. this is the main deal. servo tanks have anywhere from 10,000L to 80,000L approx.
As you all will know, water is heavier than petrol, so it sinks below.
This system is to prevent any water that somehow gets into the tanks, getting into the lines and thus into our cars.
along with water, dirt, sludge and any other impurities sink to the bottom of the tank, as petrol is lighter than most other properties.
EG: if we have a 10,000L tank, upon reaching the final 2000L in the tank, warning alerts begin to tell the operator of the remaining amount, these alerts continue until the tank reaches 500L, at which point the station will shutdown (usually tankers arrive well before this occours) to prevent those properties reaching us.
So, the remaining 500L of petrol also contains any and 99% of the impurities existing in the petrol.
before tankers refill the tanks, the servo tanks are emptied into waste tanks that are emptied monthly.
i hope this helps.. any questions please ask :)

thats **** as!

i only buy premium, but im sure they put some cheaper **** in there to boost their profit at the expense of me :(

water contamination in petrol is uncommon (obviously not in this case) but it does happen.

Water in fuel at servos is common, and even at light aircraft refilling pumps(hence why pilots hit the water drain on their light planes before flying).

Aircraft refueling systems are much more controlled and more frequently tested, drained etc than servos. However even with those safeguards in place there are chopper pilots who will only refuel out of sealed drums.

Many servos never clean their tanks. The industry may like consumers to think otherwise, but it doesn't happen very often, if at all.

Ask tanker drivers how often they have drained a tank before dumping a new load in. If they did there would not be issues with refilling and getting dirty fuel during, or soon after, a tanker delivery.

Cheers,
Alan

Water in fuel at servos is common, and even at light aircraft refilling pumps(hence why pilots hit the water drain on their light planes before flying).

Aircraft refueling systems are much more controlled and more frequently tested, drained etc than servos. However even with those safeguards in place there are chopper pilots who will only refuel out of sealed drums.

Many servos never clean their tanks. The industry may like consumers to think otherwise, but it doesn't happen very often, if at all.

Ask tanker drivers how often they have drained a tank before dumping a new load in. If they did there would not be issues with refilling and getting dirty fuel during, or soon after, a tanker delivery.

Cheers,
Alan

aircraft use a different fuel.. its a high purity kerosene, commonly known as JET A1, which is used in many craft from your light cessnas to 74s, so its a completely different story..

the tank drivers dont do the draining/'cleaning' its external contracters that do that dirty job.

however, i do agree there are too many lies and or coverups in the oil industry and the neccessary cleaning that SHOULD be done, is done on a much less-than-regular basis..
needless to say, no matter how precise and particular we get.. we'll never please everyone

thats **** as!

i only buy premium, but im sure they put some cheaper **** in there to boost their profit at the expense of me :(

They do, some people refer to it as being watered down! Overseas they add benzene to the fuel to improve its properties - and its cheap, however its also carcinogenic. Australian refined fuels aren't allowed to add it, but for imported fuels its fine. BP fuel is imported!

Australia does have high standards, but only for locally made products. This extends to food products as well, with most imported foods grown with pesticides and the like that are banned in Australia. The banned pesticides are also the cheapest, so it means we get cheap imported food. There is still a small amount of testing done, for a limited amount of chemicals, but its pretty much a joke. Imported food for example can contain trace amounts of DDT, and thats fine! :S

Whats even worse is, Australian made products using imported ingredients have the same issue, its ok as long as the Australian constituents meed our standards. You wouldn't want to know whats in the orange juice you drink, as most is imported these days (and taste foul as orange juice doesn't reconstitute well). One example of many, the same goes for fuel.

Not all aircraft use jet a1!
Jet A1 is only used in turbine engines (which is on a high grade kero)
avgas is used in piston engine aircraft (avgas is about 100 octane or better & low lead)

water and even organisms (yes diesel is an organic liquid capable of supporting basic life forms) living in fuel can also be a result of cracks in the tanks or supply lines and is very common

aircraft use a different fuel.. its a high purity kerosene, commonly known as JET A1, which is used in many craft from your light cessnas to 74s, so its a completely different story..


Light aircraft do not use Jet A1. They use Avgas 100/130. A high octane fuel with a heavy dose of lead. Even the blue LL(low lead is very heavily leaded). Most Racing 100 is in fact Avgas 100/130.

Only jet and turbines use Jet A1.

Cheers,
Alan

getting back to the origonal post, if you drain almost any tank of a vehicle with a few Klm's on it you will get water at the bottom of the fuel. It sits there until it get sturred up when you refill the tank. Then separates again and sits on the bottom. Your own tank creates moisture through condensation all the time. This is why Diesel vehicles have water separators as part of the filter system. The water would be below the pick-up, so the only time you should get water in the mix is straight after you fill up. And the searator should remove it, if is serviced regularly.
I would imagine that Sevo's get blamed all the time when water is found in a customers fuel tank. But it wouldnt only effect one customer. It should effect everybody that bought fuel being drawn from the suspect tank.

Well the entire fleet of cars at work are effected. But water was not the main issue.

Well the entire fleet of cars at work are effected. But water was not the main issue.

Water is the issue.

As is well known by the industry it only needs a tiny particle of water, and the right atmospherics, and depending on the particular "bug" perhaps the presence of the right amount of sulphur, and a bug that has been lying in the pores of the vehicles fuel tank, hoses, pumps etc for maybe months will explode to life and create big slime deposits, or begin "eating" bits of the fuel system.

Once a fuel system is infected it can be "cleaned" but there are no guarantees that it will be got rid of. Hospitals have been trying to get rid of some bugs for decades with only limited success. The same in the wine and meat industry.

If the entire fleet has been affected then the business needs to thoroughly research the problem and then put in place a preventative maintenance program. Phone the oil company's tech line for assistance, and complaints line too if you are certain the servo has dirty tanks. If hes a franchise operator they can take samples and force him to pump his tanks out.

Cheers,
Alan

before tankers refill the tanks, the servo tanks are emptied into waste tanks that are emptied monthly.
i hope this helps.. any questions please ask :)

Dont know who told you this mate, but i have worked in a lot of petrol stations, for many different owners and i can assure you i have never ever seen this happen. The only waste tanks that i have ever heard of on site at a petrol station are for mechanic workshops, in which waste automotive oil is stored.

Also i have never heard of an alarm which signals the tank is running low, the only way to know is to do a physical dip test.

I also disagree that water in tanks is a common problem, i literally just went and tested the tanks at my work to see, and only one of 4 had traces of water, and even that was very minor.