This question is for members using superchargers and turbo set ups with BOV's.What style of blow off valves do you use.Does it have to be a plumb back style or can it be a std trumpet style.The reason i ask is i've heard conflicting opinions saying you need the plumb back style to keep the intake system sealed so to speak so it doesn't play havoc with the MAF is this true.thanks in advance.

This question is for members using superchargers and turbo set ups with BOV's.What style of blow off valves do you use.Does it have to be a plumb back style or can it be a std trumpet style.The reason i ask is i've heard conflicting opinions saying you need the plumb back style to keep the intake system sealed so to speak so it doesn't play havoc with the MAF is this true.thanks in advance.

legally it has to be a plumb back, unless the car came out standard with a BOV (wrx, evo etc)

so if youre putting a BOV on a magna, plumb back it is. although, if youre after a trumpet i will be selling my stage 2 turbosmart trumpet soon

Not really worried about the legal side of it noise etc,more interested if its going to interfere with the MAF and cause running problems.

legally it has to be a plumb back, unless the car came out standard with a BOV (wrx, evo etc)

so if youre putting a BOV on a magna, plumb back it is. although, if youre after a trumpet i will be selling my stage 2 turbosmart trumpet soon

all must be plumbed back to be legal

wrx evo's etc come with plumb back bov's

my bad, i just started learning about all this

all must be plumbed back to be legal

wrx evo's etc come with plumb back bov's

legally they have to be plumbed in as stated ^^^

also, cars that came with BOV's WILL be affected by putting atmo vent BOVs on them, as from the factory that air is metered. Basically any MAF sensor car will be effected by an Atmo BOV, since the air that is being vented has been measured by the MAF and is destinted to be mixed with fuel, you take that air away by releasing it, you get a lot of extra fuel with no air to mix with it. Ever hear a silvia or skyline pop from the exhaust at gearchnages?

If you are running a MAP sensor this isnt an issue, as only fuel for air after the TB is injected, and your bov is usualy quite earlier in the inlet plumbing on the other side of the TB.

GFB did some official testing with a WRX showing there was no increase in emissions with an atmo bov. This testing was done under RTA testing conditions and was done for the GFB stealth, that is adjustable.

I used to run a non-plumbed in type III Turbosmart

Plumb back can also help to reduce lag on a turbo

GFB did some official testing with a WRX showing there was no increase in emissions with an atmo bov. This testing was done under RTA testing conditions and was done for the GFB stealth, that is adjustable.


of course there is no increase in emissions.. its venting fresh air! i laugh when i hear ppl say its illegal cause its venting air that hasnt been through the cat... it hasnt been through the engine! its compressed fresh air! :)

i really dunno why they're ATMO bov's are illegal... must be a noise issue??

of course there is no increase in emissions.. its venting fresh air! i laugh when i hear ppl say its illegal cause its venting air that hasnt been through the cat... it hasnt been through the engine! its compressed fresh air! :)

i really dunno why they're ATMO bov's are illegal... must be a noise issue??

Noise and emissions.

The emissions theory is not from the BOV actually venting.

Its because its meant to throw out the MAF reading, making the car run rich when the BOV opens (as it takes away air after the MAF, less air and same fuel makes it run rich). As its running rich, more unburnt fuel. Meaning more pollution.

This is the general thinking of the EPA - not mine.

Plumb back can also help to reduce lag on a turbo

Proof?

playing devils advovate here

Noise and emissions.

The emissions theory is not from the BOV actually venting.

Its because its meant to throw out the MAF reading, making the car run rich when the BOV opens (as it takes away air after the MAF, less air and same fuel makes it run rich). As its running rich, more unburnt fuel. Meaning more pollution.

This is the general thinking of the EPA - not mine.

what i said was exactly what ERS has just stated. At no point did i refer to emissions from the BOV, although i should have stated i was referring to exhaust emissions.

When the sensor is thrown out by a release of air after the metering device, a super rich mixture hits the engine for a split second. THis will cause worse exhuast emissions, but its not like turbocharged cars are super 'green' anyways.

i forgot to add it makes for some super big marshmellow roasting flames out the tailpipe

Proof?

playing devils advovate here

Technically it does but so does an atmo bov, i dont think a plumb back would have any advantages over atmo for lag just reducing noise. :ninja:

Edit: also to the OP you spelt question wrong. :doh:

Plumbing back into the system is best as the maf sensor is reading the correct amount of air entering the engine, while atmosphere apart from being illegal can not be tuned correctly and as a result will decrease power...

while atmosphere apart from being illegal can not be tuned correctly and as a result will decrease power...

Will decrease power when you step off the throttle?

:roflwtf:

Ummmm.... You guys know why forced induction cars have BOV's yeah??


You can get valves that do both.....plumb back and vent outside.... From memory GFB made them.
Apparently got past most of the issues with ECU's overfuelling off boost when they used MAF sensors.


Steve

the gfb item i was talking about is that adjustable one. It overcomes the fuelling issues because it only does a half vent, which in effect halves the issue, doesnt solve it.

BOVs are a touchy subject in the forced induction world. They say they prolong the turbochargers life by reducing reverberation of the inlet air, the name escapes me at the moment, but people get the 'hektic fluterz' by removing there bov's.

The argument against this theory of longevity though is, you can still buy 200oookm old ca18det silvias with stock turbo/engine. As we know, CA's didnt come factory with bovs.

Go figure.

I think you are talking about compressor surge lynel. I'd hazzard a guess and say BOVs have more to do with reducing lag between throttle openings rather then turbo life (but I'm sure theres more to it then that).

yes and no, comp surge, which i was going to voice is also a common issue on large comp.housings on small engines. Where even after the throttle closes there is still significant push via the turbo.

Ive never driven a car that was so well tuned or at its limit that i could tell the difference in lag/response because of a BOV. I figure if a car has one from factory then its there for a reason. My sr had one, so i used a turbosmart type III. Half its life it was plumb back; half it wasnt, and the only difference was when atmo venting i used to pop 3 foot flames out the rearend.

ONly ever had a 25/10, turboback, fmic, 10psi. No tune.

I think you are talking about compressor surge lynel. I'd hazzard a guess and say BOVs have more to do with reducing lag between throttle openings rather then turbo life (but I'm sure theres more to it then that).

How could a BOV possibly reduce lag if it vents off pressurized air in the system when the throttle shuts. The compressor/s take time to re compress the gasses once the BOV closes - thus producing "turbo lag".

I was always under the impression that no BOV was what you ran if you wanted minimal lag on a turbo car - not the other way around. If no BOV is fitted, then the pressure is mostly still there in the pipes when the throttle re-opens. The issue of a BOV protecting the turbo because prevents compressor surge probably only really relates to pretty high boost applications.

Realistically I could probably get away with no BOV on my car because a max pressure of 7.5 odd PSI being shared between 2 turbos is **** all for the second or so it takes me to change gears.

BLACKBEARD for a custom turbo setup, the less parts the less stress and worry. FOr anything under a full displacement of boost (14.7psi) i wouldnt bother.

BLACKBEARD for a custom turbo setup, the less parts the less stress and worry. FOr anything under a full displacement of boost (14.7psi) i wouldnt bother.

I'm sorry, did I give the impression I was looking for advice on this topic??

This is taken off the rotary forums which is a FANTASTIC Debate about the issue of BOV's (weather or not to use them etc etc)

If anyone wants a fantastic read, take a look here. (its long, but VERY informative)
Quote taken...

The pressure momentarily hits the preset WG pressure, hence it opens, then closes, and repeats this process for a few sequeces untill it can no longer unseat the WG valve.... IE fluttering noise. The noise you hear is just plain old simple air going back over the compressor vanes as it oscilates to and from, the volumes and weight of air are so insignificant that it is laughable. Enough to cause a little noise but not much else.

Even at 90lb/min or 41kg per minute, a huge 680 grams per second (weight of air) of air is forced at back past the compressor WOW what an unbelievable force of air !!!! That is asuming 900bhp worth of air flow on an instantaneouse closed throttle situation going back past the compressor wheel, what an amasing thrust loading ! No wonder thrust bearing wear out and compressor wheel snap off due to the massive accelerations involved on a closed throttle as it pulses back down to 0 pressure.
This is instantaneous load to, this quickly diminishes as the turbo slows down very very fast, within 0.5 second it will be hard pressed to deliver half of this flow amount. The loads are small the accelerations due to the WG fluttering are small, these factors are insignificant and are not worth worrying about.

I power challenged car may and I mean may benifit from the minor gain in compressor turbine speed retained by the use of a BOV on a gear change (closed throttle) but I am telling you common sence and people's experience after disconecting the BOV shows that this gain is very marginal. With objective data logging I could not measure a difference in responce on a 13BT running a hybrid turbo or a TO4.

The school of thought about silencing the turbo during gear shifts etc as the original design purpose of a plumback BOV makes the most sence and also accounts for why they were never adopted in F1 as a significant responce/reliability item......... anything else just sounds like a nice story :)

I see GTR700 does not run a BOV reading the latest Zoom, surley his turbos would snap into 1000 pieces after lifting off at the end of a 1/4 run given the hugh boost levels ???????

http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=17113&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=40

In particular read RICE RACING's posts.

Also on this subject I have a GFB 1002 BOV for sale...

...

Realistically I could probably get away with no BOV on my car because a max pressure of 7.5 odd PSI being shared between 2 turbos is **** all for the second or so it takes me to change gears.

:s umm my bad?

Anyways to the OT im sure there will be other issues arising before one caused by having/not having a BOV raises its head. Good luck

I believe the OP's original question has been answered, however this is my understanding of what a BOV is used for.

When you step off the throttle there is little exhaust gas to keep the turbo spinning. You still have pressure in the intake manifold which acts on the compressor wheel, slowing it down.
The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold, reducing the back pressure on the compressor, allowing the turbo to free wheel maintaining as many RPM as possible. Therefore when you accelerate again the turbo is still spinning, reducing lag.

This is my understanding of a BOV.

When you step off the throttle there is little exhaust gas to keep the turbo spinning. You still have pressure in the intake manifold which acts on the compressor wheel, slowing it down.
The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold, reducing the back pressure on the compressor, allowing the turbo to free wheel, maintaining as many RPM as possible. Therefore when you accelerate again the turbo is still spinning, reducing lag.
no, because it vents the pressure, it takes time for the system to fill up with air again, thus, lag.

and the debate rages....

this is how it goes on every car forum when talking about FI

http://forums.turbosmartonline.com/viewtopic.php?id=6

i'd say they have a bit of an idea of what they do.

I have to have a bov on my set up... for supercharger setups its refferred to more as a bypass valve.. but in reality is pretty much the same, releases all the pressure build up in the system when off throttle, or the pressure is too high. ie. if i cruise on half throttle my bov's (I now have 2) are releasing the unused air...

as to whether its needed or not... I had one... it blew my intercooler apart.. I now have 2.. to release more excess air. both plummed back into the intake.

http://forums.turbosmartonline.com/viewtopic.php?id=6

i'd say they have a bit of an idea of what they do.

Read what was quoted from Ausrotary (RICERACING's post).

Even though I cant stand the guy, he has more technical knowledge in his testicle hair than most people in the industry.

Read what was quoted from Ausrotary (RICERACING's post).

Even though I cant stand the guy, he has more technical knowledge in his testicle hair than most people in the industry.
Interesting, why?

If you spent enough time on that forum you'de understand why he is severely disliked by 99.9% of the forum.

That being said, he is extremely technically minded, designs engine parts, can back anything up with proper tests (be it dyno, bench flow, or complicated mathematics)

I believe the OP's original question has been answered, however this is my understanding of what a BOV is used for.

When you step off the throttle there is little exhaust gas to keep the turbo spinning. You still have pressure in the intake manifold which acts on the compressor wheel, slowing it down.
The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold, reducing the back pressure on the compressor, allowing the turbo to free wheel maintaining as many RPM as possible. Therefore when you accelerate again the turbo is still spinning, reducing lag.

Thanks Mitch..
Nailed it on the head...

I'm rather surprised how many people.... (Not saying all people here on AMC) really haven't got a clue what the purpose of a BOV is...

Share the knowledge I say!!

Tufftr, sorry matey.... lag is caused by that wall of air when the throttle butterfly(s) shut having nowhere to go, causing the turbo to slow very very quickly.... then when the foot is back on the turbo it takes a little time to spool up again...... THAT is Lag!!!

Steve

Thanks Mitch..
Nailed it on the head...

I'm rather surprised that most people.... (Not saying all here on AMC) really haven't got a clue what the purpose of a BOV is...

Share the knowledge I say!!

Steve

are you being sarcastic or do you really believe that guys description of what a blow of valve does?

are you being sarcastic or do you really believe that guys description of what a blow of valve does?

That is what a Blow off Valve does....

After being in the modified car game for over 15 years and a qualified Aircraft Engineer for over 16 years....
Jeez we even used to rebuild and balance turbos for many race teams at work....


Dude I know....

Steve

If you still doubt what is being said.... read this


http://forums.turbosmartonline.com/viewtopic.php?id=6



Except that instead of air being forced back through the turbine wheel it's forced back through the Compressor wheel... small typo

Steve

That is what a Blow off Valve does....

After being in the modified car game for over 15 years and a qualified Aircraft Engineer for over 16 years....
Jeez we even used to rebuild and balance turbos for many race teams at work....


Dude I know....

Steve

you have to be kidding me right?

"When you step off the throttle there is little exhaust gas to keep the turbo spinning. You still have pressure in the intake manifold which acts on the compressor wheel, slowing it down.
The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold, reducing the back pressure on the compressor, allowing the turbo to free wheel maintaining as many RPM as possible. Therefore when you accelerate again the turbo is still spinning, reducing lag"


"When you step off the throttle you still have pressure in the intake manifold"
..no you dont!!! as soon as you step off the throttle the intake manifold goes straight into vacumm!! hence why a vacumm hose goes from the intake manifold to your bov.. the bov is forced open by the vacumm created in the intake manifold when you back off the throttle

"The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold"
..once again there is no "pressure" in the intake manifold.. the intake manifold has gone into vacumm once the throttle is closed... the excess pressure the bov needs to get rid of is on the otherside of the throttle body in your intake hoses/pipes

"reducing the back pressure on the compressor"
interesting words to use, "back pressure" but idea is correct.. the bov vents the air in the intake pipes to attempt to prevent compressor surge which will damage a turbo charger...

blackbird, what have i got wrong seeing as your the expert?

you have to be kidding me right?

"When you step off the throttle there is little exhaust gas to keep the turbo spinning. You still have pressure in the intake manifold which acts on the compressor wheel, slowing it down.
The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold, reducing the back pressure on the compressor, allowing the turbo to free wheel maintaining as many RPM as possible. Therefore when you accelerate again the turbo is still spinning, reducing lag"


"When you step off the throttle you still have pressure in the intake manifold"
..no you dont!!! as soon as you step off the throttle the intake manifold goes straight into vacumm!! hence why a vacumm hose goes from the intake manifold to your bov.. the bov is forced open by the vacumm created in the intake manifold when you back off the throttle

"The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold"
..once again there is no "pressure" in the intake manifold.. the intake manifold has gone into vacumm once the throttle is closed... the excess pressure the bov needs to get rid of is on the otherside of the throttle body in your intake hoses/pipes

"reducing the back pressure on the compressor"
interesting words to use, "back pressure" but idea is correct.. the bov vents the air in the intake pipes to attempt to prevent compressor surge which will damage a turbo charger...

blackbird, what have i got wrong seeing as your the expert?

**** man... sorry... mis read that the inlet manifold had positive pressure.... my bad......:silenced:

I'll read better next time

again sorry...

Total ownage....

Steve

**** man... sorry... mis read that the inlet manifold had positive pressure.... my bad......:silenced:

I'll read better next time

again sorry...

Steve

:) sweet as.. as i was typing all that i kinda realised thats prob what u mis read..
cheers

:) sweet as.. as i was typing all that i kinda realised thats prob what u mis read..
cheers

Geez i suck.... can't believe I mis read that.... I need a vacation!!! Hahahahaha

BACK TO THE OT!!!!!


:redface:

Lol, yes. Miss-worded. I meant the ducting between the turbo and the throttle butterfly. My bad. :doh:

you have to be kidding me right?

"When you step off the throttle there is little exhaust gas to keep the turbo spinning. You still have pressure in the intake manifold which acts on the compressor wheel, slowing it down.
The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold, reducing the back pressure on the compressor, allowing the turbo to free wheel maintaining as many RPM as possible. Therefore when you accelerate again the turbo is still spinning, reducing lag"


"When you step off the throttle you still have pressure in the intake manifold"
..no you dont!!! as soon as you step off the throttle the intake manifold goes straight into vacumm!! hence why a vacumm hose goes from the intake manifold to your bov.. the bov is forced open by the vacumm created in the intake manifold when you back off the throttle

"The BOV dumps the pressure from the intake manifold"
..once again there is no "pressure" in the intake manifold.. the intake manifold has gone into vacumm once the throttle is closed... the excess pressure the bov needs to get rid of is on the otherside of the throttle body in your intake hoses/pipes

"reducing the back pressure on the compressor"
interesting words to use, "back pressure" but idea is correct.. the bov vents the air in the intake pipes to attempt to prevent compressor surge which will damage a turbo charger...

blackbird, what have i got wrong seeing as your the expert?

The vacuum line isnt there to open the BOV when you step off the throttle, its there to equalise the pressure either side of the BOV (assisted by a spring) when on boost.

Mitch79 - read what TUFFTR quoted. I'de read it, re-read it, and memorise it.

Compressor surge is also sometimes refered to as compressor stall. Which can damage a turbo in theory.

While a PRV (its actuall a pressure release valve, not a BOV) is said to eliminate this - I would say RICERACING is spot on the money as to why manufacturers use PRV's. That being said, it is possible that in the early days of turbo's, manufacturers used PRV's to extend the life of turbo's.

Nowadays - with full ball bearing turbo's, I highly doubt there is much of a need for a PRV.

As RICERACING has said, there is still bugger all 'force' on a turbo once you slam that throttle shut. He was also working off a 900bhp of airflow....a hell of a lot more than the majority of cars on the road.

As for a PRV reducing lag - eh, as its been said - fine it may reduce the amount a turbo slows down - what about the extra air that has now been decomressed?

The vacuum line isnt there to open the BOV when you step off the throttle, its there to equalise the pressure either side of the BOV (assisted by a spring) when on boost.

ummm no mate, that is incorrect... yes the bov needs the vacumm line there to equalise pressure when on boost.. but if it wasnt there to open the bov then they would run the vacumm line from the otherside of the throttle body.. the other side of the throttle body wont go from boost pressure to vacumm the second u step off the throttle.. the intake manifold does.. reason is, it needs to in order to open the bov when u back off the throttle

i THINK i know what your thinking of but your still wrong even about that type of bov... the bov's your thinking of have 2 vaccum lines... one coming from the intake manifold and one coming from inlet pipes (so you have a vacumm line going to the bov from either side of the throttle body).. on boost and throttle open the pressure is equal at either side of the valve so it wont want to move.. the spring will keep it shut as it should... BUT when you step off the throttle the intake manifold will go into vacumm and so will the vac line going to the bov coming from the intake manifold... the bov will then be forced open because one side of the valve is under pressure and the other is in vacumm...

the above is also true for single vacumm line bov's...
the single vaccumm line, from the intake manifold, is there to open the bov once the intake manifold is under vacumm... while the car is open throttle and on boost the intake manifold and the bov (inlet side) are both seeing the same pressure .. the spring is holding the bov shut and there is no force on the spring as pressure is the same on either side of the valve... BUT once you step off the gas pedal, throttle body shuts, intake manifold goes into vacumm and then one side of the bov is under pressure the other (side attached to the vac line from intake manifold) goes into vacumm and the bov opens...


how did you think the bov opens and shuts? by the spring? what would make a spring want to move around on its own? it needs the change in pressure on one side of the bov to want to open....

when pressure is the same on either side of the bov the spring will keep the bov shut.. this could be when the car is off, when your holding the bov in ur hand out of the car or when the car is under open throttle and boost situations... once pressure changes on one, side the bov will open...

ummm no mate, that is incorrect... yes the bov needs the vacumm line there to equalise pressure when on boost.. but if it wasnt there to open the bov then they would run the vacumm line from the otherside of the throttle body.. the other side of the throttle body wont go from boost pressure to vacumm the second u step off the throttle.. the intake manifold does.. reason is, it needs to in order to open the bov when u back off the throttle

i THINK i know what your thinking of but your still wrong even about that type of bov... the bov's your thinking of have 2 vaccum lines... one coming from the intake manifold and one coming from inlet pipes (so you have a vacumm line going to the bov from either side of the throttle body).. on boost and throttle open the pressure is equal at either side of the valve so it wont want to move.. the spring will keep it shut as it should... BUT when you step off the throttle the intake manifold will go into vacumm and so will the vac line going to the bov coming from the intake manifold... the bov will then be forced open because one side of the valve is under pressure and the other is in vacumm...

the above is also true for single vacumm line bov's...
the single vaccumm line, from the intake manifold, is there to open the bov once the intake manifold is under vacumm... while the car is open throttle and on boost the intake manifold and the bov (inlet side) are both seeing the same pressure .. the spring is holding the bov shut and there is no force on the spring as pressure is the same on either side of the valve... BUT once you step off the gas pedal, throttle body shuts, intake manifold goes into vacumm and then one side of the bov is under pressure the other (side attached to the vac line from intake manifold) goes into vacumm and the bov opens...


how did you think the bov opens and shuts? by the spring? what would make a spring want to move around on its own? it needs the change in pressure on one side of the bov to want to open....

when pressure is the same on either side of the bov the spring will keep the bov shut.. this could be when the car is off, when your holding the bov in ur hand out of the car or when the car is under open throttle and boost situations... once pressure changes on one, side the bov will open...

Ok i didnt explain myself properly.

What i meant was the MAIN objective of the vacuum line is to hold the piston in the BOV shut when on boost, the BOV would still open without the presence of vacuum on the other side when you close the throttle. The vacuum would most certainly assist in lifting the piston but the pressure behind it would force its way out without that help.

Ok i didnt explain myself properly.

What i meant was the MAIN objective of the vacuum line is to hold the piston in the BOV shut when on boost, the BOV would still open without the presence of vacuum on the other side when you close the throttle. The vacuum would most certainly assist in lifting the piston but the pressure behind it would force its way out without that help.

even though we are agreeing on the bov function i disgaree with the way your explaining..

Putting the vacuum line on the wrong side of the throttle would result in the BOV piston always being stationary as the pressure (or vacuum) on both sides would always be equal. Essentually closing the valve as if it was never there.

Which lead me to this idea, what if you wanted to change from "flutter" to "sshhhhh" with the flick of a switch, you could fit an electronic valve switching the signal line from one side of the throttle to the other?

Works in my head anyway!

EDIT: Patent Pending.....

how did you think the bov opens and shuts? by the spring? what would make a spring want to move around on its own? it needs the change in pressure on one side of the bov to want to open....

when pressure is the same on either side of the bov the spring will keep the bov shut.. this could be when the car is off, when your holding the bov in ur hand out of the car or when the car is under open throttle and boost situations... once pressure changes on one, side the bov will open...

Like gremlin is saying the vacuum line (like in nearly all cases) simply is a pneumatic switch. Depending on the pressure in the manifold it will make the PRV open or close.

In regards to that turbosmart article i have a problem with it.

It mentions cavitation as a major cause of damage to the turbos. Yet cavitation is when a liquid flows in a pump past something like a turbine blade or in high occurance a ships propeller.
When this occurs the liquid moves from high to low pressure around the blades causing very small air bubbles to form which will then move to a higher pressure area and implode. The implosions can be quite damaging and you'll clearly see this if you type "cavitation" into google pics.
So how does this relate to an air pump?? Compressor surge surely doesnt sound like cavitation at all.....

Like ER's said with the use of a BOV the turbo now needs to do alot more work to recompress the gas it just released.

So its down to sound then.

BOV's sound pretty gay except for a few, but imho compressor surge sounds awesome!!!

the vacuum line (like in nearly all cases) simply is a pneumatic switch. Depending on the pressure in the manifold it will make the PRV open or close.


"pneumatic switch"..just the words i was looking for!

your two lines explain it spot on... cheers mate

Wow this thread has really stirred the pot!! Carry on gentleman. :happy:

Read what was quoted from Ausrotary (RICERACING's post).

Even though I cant stand the guy, he has more technical knowledge in his testicle hair than most people in the industry.


read it. this is an agree to disagree situation.

you trust info from his ball hair and i'll trust info from the industry pros. :cool:

read it. this is an agree to disagree situation.

you trust info from his ball hair and i'll trust info from the industry pros. :cool:

He is an industry pro.

I'll take the word of a guy who builds engines, designs engine parts and is willing to put his money where his mouth is :)

He is an industry pro.

I'll take the word of a guy who builds engines, designs engine parts and is willing to put his money where his mouth is :)

Or his balls where your mouth is :facejump:

Sorry mate had to do it