The car has been starting well enough, and I had no problems this morning, but this afternoon when I tried to start there was not even the faintest sign of life when I turned the key. Dead as a doornail. I tried to clutch it, but that didn't work, and I was lucky enough to find someone who could jump start me. I noticed an odd smell of burning rubber but saw no indications of origin or other signs to give cause for concern.

I took the car for a good run out on the highway and back into town, noticing no problems with anything, and parked outside my work to finish some things off, leaving the car out on the side of the road facing downhill just in case. I came back an hour later and again it was dead as a doornail, and it failed three times to clutch start before I reached the bottom of the hill. I called a friend who was able to give me a jump start again, and it started no problems. However this time I actually saw smoke coming up on the left side of the engine bay where the belts are, but it dissipated fairly quickly and there didn't appear to be any further issues at that time.

Having been stranded twice in one day and with the car appearing to be running for the moment, I quickly got it home (only a few kays away) since it would be much easier to work on it at home than by the side of the road! It drove fine, although I did notice an unusual high pitched sound that I hadn't heard before.

Once home I got out the multimeter and got my wife to rev the engine while I took some readings. Idle voltage and charge voltage checked out just fine, so it's certainly working in that department. The starter motor works fine, and the alternator does appear to be working after all, but the issue of the smoke is both interesting and concerning and I'm wondering what the connection might be. If anyone has any ideas on what the problem might actually be and how I might be able to more accurately pinpoint it then I would be very grateful - it's like nothing I've come across before.

Could it be possibly arcing somewhere? if its arcing maybe on the + to the starter it might be burning the rubber cap?

;1053757']Could it be possibly arcing somewhere? if its arcing maybe on the + to the starter it might be burning the rubber cap?

The starter is around on the front right side though, well away from the smoke. I was wondering whether maybe a pulley is sticking and causing the belt to smoke a little until it frees up? No idea which one of the several candidates it could be though, assuming that is even a possibility. And it would still leave the question of why the battery is dying when it appears healthy and charged? Something odd is going on somewhere under that bonnet...

Yea I've had a burning rubber sort of smell lately too, but car is running ok so just bee ignoring it.

Could it be a loose drive belt ? Slipping so burning rubber smell and smoke, possibly not driving alternator hard enuf - tho your multimeter said it was charging OK.

I'd prefer not to ignore a car with burning smells, lest I come back one day to a charred hulk. Esp if you suspect the burning smell is something electrical in origin.

Sticking pulley is a good idea too - listen for rough souinding bearings on the idler pulleys.

As for dead starting problem - check fuses, battery condition, battery clapms - remove, clean battery posts and clamps, replace clamps, grease to avoid corrosion. Check wiring connections to starter motor. Check for relays not running hot or sticking - eso those to do with starter etc.... when attempting to start, do you hear relays clicking at all?

A belt loose enough to not be charging wouldn't be tight enough to burn enough to generate smoke. Coming back to a charred hulk wouldn't necessarily be all bad though, since the insurance would probably be more than I'd get for it through sale anyway, lol. Not a lot I could check tonight anyway due to the failing (and now non-existent) light, so I'm hoping to have some ideas on what to check tomorrow when daylight returns. Sure, the usual suspects are easy to check, but this problem came out of the blue in a way that doesn't immediately suggest it is one of those culprits...hence the puzzlement.

Did the headlights work before you tried to start the car? = battery OK
Maybe the battery is dead and whilst a jump start will get it going, a push start will not generate enough alternator output to fire things up. Simply running on the alternator would give the voltage at the battery terminals you recorded, but is unwise as the battery is required to provide voltage stability across the alternator output.
Possibly a negative battery to chassis / engine earth intermittent? Often an alternate earthing via a smaller bonding conductor will overheat and cause some smoke on high current draws like starting.
Whatever it is be prepared with a portable fire extinguisher just in case.

if it clicks and doesnt start might also be the contacts in the starter motor.
Good advice from above^^^^

When I said completely dead I meant absolutely totally completely utterly dead, not so much as the slightest sign of life. No lights (internal or external), no accessories, no absolutely nothing. Dead.

The second time, when I brought it home, the car had been running for less than 5 minutes from jump start to pulling into my driveway. Prior to the jump start the battery had been in the aforementioned state of utter and absolute deadness. Upon completing the checks with the multimeter I switched the engine off and successfully restarted it twice without even the slightest sign of difficulties - no sluggishness in turning over, no delays, just turned the key and it fired up immediately. That was around 5pm, it's now 9:40pm and it's back to being very much dead.

As for starter contacts, there was no clicking whatsoever, and besides the contacts were only just replaced 18 months ago and we've done barely 10,000km since then.

Is it at all possible for any of the above/previous symptoms to be precipitated as a result of tampering from underneath while the car is parked? I'm a teacher, and at our school sports carnival today I was the unlucky sod to be on duty when two students (one expelled, one suspended) turned up and started causing lots of trouble (requiring the eventual call for police assistance to try to get rid of them). My car was parked in close proximity to where they were, and they would have had the cover they needed if such a scenario is at all plausible (and they are certainly the types to do such a thing if they had the knowledge and opportunity, which is why I'm asking). Hopefully I'm just being paranoid on this score, but sometimes the paranoia is not without good cause! :)

Nothing to do with the burning smell but if you have a maintenance type battery make there is enough distilled water in the cells. Mine was once low on water and would not start.

We had several instances of 'dead' power in a TN magna yrs back - such that I suspected the 'fusible link' in the wiring from the battery. However, it was battery terminals either not tight, or (if tight) had corrosion between battery post and clamp. Was intermittent, very like what you describe.

If you have a battery post tool, make sure you give post and inside surface of clamp a good scrape, as well as the old "hot water and washing powder" dunking.

Can't think what louts could do to cause your symptoms with power - maybe they could have shoved something up into your drive belts/pulleys if they were esp undernourished louts and got right in under the car? Should be easy to spot in good light tomorrow. Best of luck - there are some pretty slick members in AMC, maybe soem will see this overnight and give you better suggestions.

Ok, here's a theory...

I've just gone out and checked the SG of each cell, and they are all depleted to the same level - 1125, with a voltage of 3.4V between the terminals. I also had a good look around the area of the pulleys and noticed that there seems to be quite a bit of oil, although I've no idea where exactly it might be leaking from.

So...

Is it possible that the problem is caused by oil leaking onto/near the alternator pulley, thus causing the belt to slip at that point and thereby failing to charge the battery, while at the same time not making any of the usual screeching noises from slipping belts due to the lubrication of the oil; and that the smoke is caused by the friction heating the belt and the oil and causing the oil to thereby be burned off?

Am I missing anything important that undermines this theory, or does this seem likely enough to fully explain all of the aforementioned symptoms? Next step is to put the battery on the charger and fully degrease the engine, but any advice/ideas to help confirm the diagnosis would be helpful. In particular, any ideas on the most likely source of the oil leaks that could cause such a problem to arise.

De-grease/steam-clean and a decent drive may show-up the location of oil-leak - rocker-cover and camshaft seal of front engine bank could be suspects.

Check belt tension while you are in the vicinity, there are workshop manuals in PDF files - links in 3rd Gen forum now I think (was in Tech Torque, but may have been tidied-up recently) - a search of "workshop manual" should find the right thread. I have these downloaded onto laptop, but only have a PDF viewer so can't paste screen-shots from it.

Check overall condition of the drive belts while you are there, esp if the belts look oily - oil will possibly be bad for belts (tho I wouldn't expect it will be a crisis right away).

Could it just be that battery is haddit?

The belts are fairly new, so unless the oil has been enough to really stuff them they should still be fine. Maybe I'll have to replace them anyway just to be safe. Either way, the tension is certainly fine. As for the battery, unless all six cells are collapsed simulaneously then I wouldn't be suspecting the battery on its own at this point - it's always easy to suspect the battery, but more often that not electrical problems will turn out to be something else, with the battery just being the innocent fall-guy. I recently replaced the breather hose and the filler cap due to oil leaks (the breather hose was probably fine in retrospect, but it needed it anyway), but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to do the rocker cover gaskets anyway on a car this old. How much of a PITA is it to do the rear bank as well?

If you have 13-14V at the battery connections whilst idling and the battery dies twice daily I would have no hesitation in replacing the battery. Before you do though, turn off the car and disconnect the pos terminal, set your multi to current and measure the draw. Could be a short somewhere causing the battery to die.

I wouldn't be that quick to replace it though, under the circumstances - it's likely I'd just become the latest in a long line of people to waste money on replacing otherwise good batteries because they 'failed' due to alternator (or other electrical) problems. Before I even thought about replacing the battery I'd be wanting to verify that everything else in the system is working perfectly, because if I didn't then the new battery would just keep dying as well! The only confirmed battery-related problem thus far is a failure to charge, and that's not necessarily anything to do with the battery itself at all.

Ahhmm,

moderate PIA, I'd say - not too bad really. I had mine done by Mal (Madmagna) in Melb as part of a road-trip/buy-up at Adelaide Mitsi Clearout/visit friends in Melb.

The plenum to lower intake manifold gasket is a steel one, and doesn't really need to be changed - but the gaskets were $7- at Dealers in Dubbo so I had already bought 3 for our cars. As soon as he had the plenum off, Mal put a cover over intake manifold - saving dirt or small bits falling in - I think this is an ecellent idea and even stuffing decent bit of rag in would save dramas of a dropped nut etc. There's a few brackets/throtte-cable etc to detach from plenum, but its reasonably easy to guage whats involved before you start and its kinda logical the way it all goes back together.

Are you due for rear platinum plugs anytime soon? Also, would be wise to check for any evidence of oil on the spark plug insulators as a guide to how well your plug tube seals are doing. Could roughly guage condition of rear based on front bank. In any case, if you go ahead to do rear rocker cover gasket - then get those 3 plug tube seals as well (can get a kit at parts stores, bit exxy for what it is, but what can you do). Plug seals are a kinda flared round seal which sits on a flange of the tube, and gets squashed against the underside of rocker cover whe that goes on.

Rocker covers are kinda like two pieces of steel pressing, with the gap bewteen the pieces forming the "well" the rocker cover gasket sits into. Clean that carefully of crud, oil and any old pieces of gasket (they can sort of 'cook-on' in places and break up as you pull old gasket out). make sure the rocker cover and that gap isn't distorted by bolts being done up too tight.

Get new gasket sitting in nice and square, then position carefully, check gasket hasn't bulged/fallen-out anywhere and do up cover bolts in sequence and in gradual stages. The sequence should be from the "middle" of the cover on either side and then working out towards ends, do one side then the other as you go, and do it it 3-4 stages, so that no end of cover is really tight before the whole cover.

Overall, bolts should be firm not tight, good even tension on gasket, def no distortion of steel cover or you'll encourage leaks rather than fix them. Word on these forums seems to be that no "gasket goo" is reqd on the rocker cover gasket at all. Or plug seals, if memory serves.

Belts: If they are fairly new, I'm with you - a bit of oil can't have done them too much harm.

Battery: They usually go at one end cell or the other, don't they - cathode/anode one goes first - you're the teacher, you'd better refresh my memory!! EDIT: Just saw your reply about battery - agree also. Wonder what the regulator in alternator is doing - that not oil-soaked, by any chance??

Hope the check-up of oil leak etc goes well. I'd better go put some speakers in dash of a TR, or find why my fuse #7 in KJ keeps going!!

Before I even thought about replacing the battery I'd be wanting to verify that everything else in the system is working perfectly, because if I didn't then the new battery would just keep dying as well!

That's what I said LOL...I musn't have made my point clear.

If it will start 2 or 3 times straight after being run, it is being charged. If it fails to start later that day it's either a battery that won't hold it's charge, or it's being drained by a faulty component in the car. I still vote measure draw with the car off.

I've just put it on the charger, and checked the voltage again - 7.6V. Tends to reinforce the idea of the charging system in general rather than the battery specifically.

I'll let that sit on the charger until later this evening, and then tomorrow make sure the engine is nice and clean before taking it for a spin and checking for leaks. I'll also check the voltage again (before and after) and see how the battery is performing. Hopefully that will deliver some results!

As for the gaskets, I'll obviously have to fix whatever is leaking when I work out where it is coming from, but I'll only do the rear if that is the actual source. At this stage I don't have the time to do anything other than essential work, so if it ain't broke I wont be fixing it just yet. Good one to keep in mind for the holidays tho.

Well, I'm about ready to just blame the battery anyway, if only through no ideas as to what else it could be!

I had it on the charger for about 6.5 hours and it seemed fairly stable at 12.6V this afternoon when I finally had the time to go out and check. After cleaning the engine thoroughly yesterday, and giving it another spray to dislodge a few bits of degreaser gunk that hadn't been dislodged, I was happy that the engine was as clean as I was going to make it - certainly clean enough to spy any leaks sufficient to cause the aforementioned troubles.

The engine started easily enough, although it was blowing copious quantities of white smoke at first. I took it for a short spin once around the block, and the smoke had ceased (possibly just water in the exhaust?). I checked the voltages without switching off the engine and everything checked out, so I then took it for a 10-15 minute drive around town, keeping a fairly consistent speed and the revs high. When I got home I checked everything again and once again the engine was perfectly clean everywhere that oil could, if leaking, possibly make it on to the belt - so that would seem to rule that out. The only signs of any oil leaks were around the front bank rocker cover, so that will still need to be done anyway.

Except for when the fan kicked in, the battery voltage was fairly steady around 13.6V with the engine running, although once I started fiddling with accessories this dropped down to around 13.2-3V steady. When the fan kicked in (or I turned on something like the demister) the steady voltage dropped about 0.4-0.6V. With the engine off, the voltage sat around 12.6V but the engine still started without any hesitation. I will check it later tonight after it has sat for a while and see how it looks then.

I do have a 'new' battery that I bought a while back when having starter problems, but didn't end up needing at the time. It's dropped a bit of its charge but I have it on the charger now and will put it in tomorrow and give it a trial run. The charging system seems fine, the oil leaks aren't an issue (at least in terms of this problem), and there's no signs of any other electrical gremlins, so that really does pretty much just leave the battery. Still not sure about the smoke, but I suppose it could have just been coincidental that some generic engine gunk just happened to end up on the belt and got smoked up at the same time the battery decided to chuck it in. Haven't seen any other signs of concern in this respect, so I guess I'll just have to keep a close eye on things for a bit just to be sure.

If anyone has any better ideas then I would certainly welcome them, but for now I'll just try the battery swap and see how it goes from there. Fingers crossed...