Ok from the start:

I have a TJ VRX manual 145,000km mods include muffler, PM extractors and K&N filter. I recently bought some brand new Ralliart cams off a member on here, who really knows what hes talking about. The car has been running beautifully, service done only 3 months ago.

Now i took me car to a workshop owned by a mate of mine, hes been a mechanic for 20yrs and is very knowledgeable. He said he could install the cams for me no worries, and the only thing he would change would be the tensioner on the timing belt to a new one as he didnt wanna risk putting on an old one (im not real mechanically minded so bare with me pls).

He put his best mechanic on it, he took everything off and put the cams in no worries. The mech who put them got moved onto another car where his knowledge was required. And another mechanic was put in charge of putting everything back together, he doesnt speak great english but is a good mech.

Now for the probs:

Car started perfectly ran for 2 mins then just cut out. And it will no restart. It has spark, the battery is fine, it has fuel, and pulse. But it wont start. They have now told me the engine is flooded with fuel, and that the stock cams from a Ralliart are obviously not a drop in, and something else should have been done. He says the timing is fine and everything, but he also said that the mech may have stuffed something up when he put it back in.

So the cams should be straight drop in yes, nothing else needs to be done to make it run other than that?

What could it be that has caused this to happen? Please help as hes lost on what happened and im sure they are drop in with no other mods needed to be done to make it run. He says he thinks they have bent the valves or something :eek2:

dude wat the hell? mine have been fine so far not a prob. Do you know what he did to get them in there? they should be slid out the back of the engine and all cam seals and such should be replaced. i got my tensioner replaced with the belt so it sounds the same as my job so far. cams put in incorrectly at all? i got no idea how its possible but they are definatly a direct drop in my mech has done it before

Yeh i know im so ****ed off.

Ok im not sure the cams seals were replaced, well they didnt say directly to me they were so not 100% sure. I said what ever needs to be done just do it.

thats right, drop in and nothing else needed.

I'd be setting No 1 cyl to TDC and re-checking the cam timing as well as the cam pulley bolts. Next step = compression test.

yeah id say cam timing has a bit to do with it. so you dont have your car atm then?

Yep forgot they reckon no compression either

Looks like they are up for the extra work.

oh hell yes they are dont let them tell you its not a direct drop in dude make sure they know theyre in the wrong

**** this was not what i was especting, its just a simple job! i dont think you should have to pay for the extra work IF its there fault, which by the sounds of it, it is. make sure all the sensors and plugs are all still correctly plugged in, so nothing was nocked when being installed. as previously stated also check your timing, your seals, compression, nothing is blocked in the lines etc...

yeah id say cam timing has a bit to do with it. so you dont have your car atm then?

He says the timing is fine. Its at his workshop at the moment ****ed supposedly, and worst of all im driving a *********** Hyundai Sonata lol

how far out do the cams need to be to make the motor loose compression?

could advanceing the cams (making the exhust valve open sooner) help??

i dont know though, just suggestions.

Mmmm dont worry i wont be paying a cent over the quote for the install. He is a very good mate of mine, so im not worried about the end cost, as he will wear it. However he is basically lost on what has happened, him and his 3 mechanics spent half an hour trying to make it start and got nothing.

Any ideas on what could ahve happened to cause such sever failure?

You have no compression? Hmmm.... random....

Your in the right, pretty sure your covered for like 3 months with any mechanical work by law?

Your in the right, pretty sure your covered for like 3 months with any mechanical work by law?

Yeh i just wanted 100% confirmation that they are drop in, i knew they were.

He asked if i wanted to change the tensioner i said yes and whatever else needs to be done do it. He asked if i wanted to change the rocker cover gaskets (?) and i said if needed do it, he said they will be fine and re-used them from what i know.

These were/are brand new cams.

Currently waiting for the seller to weigh in on the debate now, but he's offline :(

Dude get them to check that tensioner. If they put that tensioner on wrong or it let go your up for 24 new valves

you could get the cams taken out mate, put the std ones in, try 2 start, and get the ralliarts measured up make sure they are 100% accurate

hi have they checked the cam angle sensor if that got stuffed then your engine wont run

;1065378']Dude get them to check that tensioner. If they put that tensioner on wrong or it let go your up for 24 new valves

Thats what i thought, it was brand new but if they buggered the install of that then that could basically cause this hey? And he will be up for new valves and install, ralliart ones too if so lol

if there is no compression something on the timing side is wrong..

Thats what i thought, it was brand new but if they buggered the install of that then that could basically cause this hey? And he will be up for new valves and install, ralliart ones too if so lol

I have had a BRAND new tensioner FAIL on me after 1 rotation of the engine. (this is why you hand turn the motor first..)
Defiantly have that tensioner looked at. If they used a cheap one that could be a problem..

hey timmy just so you know i had my rocker cover gaskets replaced with my cam install as well. if thats any help

I'm thinking that either the cam pulley bolts were done up finger tight or the hydraulic tensioner and the adjustable tensioner pulley weren't set up right. I recently got a flood damaged vehicle running again and both cam pulleys were out by about 10 teeth due to slippage caused by the dirt & grass which had clogged up the pulley teeth. Fortunately no valves were bent.

Did not read much past the first post only in so far as you mention no compression.

In short, the ralliart cams can even be made to run in a 6G72 with little to mod,

The fact the car rand for a few mins also means this in your car, even the most simple minded mechanic would acknowledge this

Engine needs 4 things

Fuel
Spark
Compression
And all of these to happen at the right time

Here is what I think
The engine fired ran for 2 minutes, then the timing belt that had not been correctly tensioned has moved and valves have tapped pistons and then all gorne

You mention no compression, DGAF how much spark and fuel you have, no compression means no go

Most likely was the bolt that holds the timing belt tensioner idler was not done up correctly and has slipped, have seen this happen a few times before with mechanics who are not really familiar with these engines.

As for replacing the hydrolic tensioner that is a load of crap, you are good to change the belt and 2 idler pulleys but the tensioner I am yet to see a genuine one that really needed replacing.

In short, your mechanic as not anywhere as good as you think he is, well with magna's and if they are good they would not break the golden rule of all workshops, "I do not put together what I did not take apart!"

All the best with the car mate, they are up for a pair of heads to be reco'd and if they want to argue with this, I have fitted far more aggressive cams to std magna engines with no issues PROVIDED THEY WERE NOT RPW cams. As these were genuine mits cams, tell these clowns to fix your heads on their cost or you will be speaking to them through office of fair trading!

As for the rocker cover gaskets, unless they are fairly new, they have to come off so replace them FFS as the tube seals will compress and go hard, you can seal them but why bother if you are going to this extent.

Now with cams being out by 10 teeth, the engine must have had a hydrolic lock up pretty much instantly for there to be no valve damage as from memory on the front cam there is about 7 teeth grace before you have valves starting to touch bits, I can check when I am back in Melb as I do have this written down somewhere

Thanks Madmagna was waiting for you to come in here. The only reason they replaced the tensioner was he advised he wasnt overly confident about just putting the same one back in and suggested he replaced it. He made no money off it as i get parts trade price.

I am thinking as 2 different mechanics worked on this, that the second one assumed the first guy had done something which he in fact didnt and put everything back together without knowing so.

Ok just chatted to my mechanic and he partly agrees with you Mal. A lot of what he said flew way over my head. But from what i can gather they reset it and it still wouldnt work or something, like the cams were timed up properly still. He has said however there is a the chance that the mech f'ed up and if so it will be fixed promptly and at no cost obviously if that is the cse. Will find out tomorrow morning either way. He also was of the opinion that the lifters may have stuffed up or something, sorry really stressed right now and couldnt follow what he said. I just cant afford to fix this if it was a general malfunction and not their fault, if that is even possible.....

To begin with, with the lifters they will initially need to bleed off as the ralliart cams do have slightly higher lift. This will generally take a minute to occur at idle. During this time there is no chance at all that valves will even come close to touching pistons the only symptom will be a slightly rough idle.

It is clear that the mechanic has made a mistake and this is evident in what he has told you and trying to push this off to the lifters it is him trying to avoid the very costly repair job for himself. The fact the engine is not running now despite him having allegedly retimed the cams says that either a) he has not retimed the cams correctly or b) He has done some very serious damage internally which simply not able to occur if the engine is only at idle.

I have seen these engines dropped timing belts while at low RPM and only resulted in a slight engine missed at idle due to only 1 or 2 bent valves as the engine will come to a very sudden stop if the belt lets go at idle.

Thanks a lot for your advice mate, really good to hear i didnt bugger up anywhere. Am printing this off and throwing it at him tomorrow morning lol he wont have a problem with the money, well off bloke. More just annoyed i dont have my car, feel weird without it

haha next time go and see dave from RPW, he'll look after you lol
haha nah unlucky about the car timmy, hopefully its all sorted soon ;)

haha next time go and see dave from RPW, he'll look after you lol
haha nah unlucky about the car timmy, hopefully its all sorted soon ;)

Hahahah dave from RPW :eeek:

All will be good, just means i dont have my car for a while :(

Sorry to hear dude. I was going to say that doesnt sound very good, but you know that already.

Best of luck on getting it running soon dude :)

Damn...... really sorry to hear that, hope it works out ok :(

Ok the saga continues.

Mechanics back working on it, the timing is perfect and the pistons didnt hit the valves but it still wont start. They have compression in the back 3 cylinders but not the front three :confused: he thought it might be the front lobe of the cam could be wrong, but these are stock Ralliart cams from Mits so that isnt possible. Also the the lifters may ahve got "stuck up" and that could be the problem.

Still not sure, and i still dont have my car back. But he as reassured me that i wont have to pay a cent, so its just time now.

Magna's are great until mechanics (some) touch em :D

All better now, was thought there was bigger probs but good.

sorry to here mate, if you need any help let me know anyways, best of luck getting it back on the road, and i hope it all turns out well for you. I have never heard of this before, i always though ralliart cams were the same...

There is a thread on fitting ralliart cams to the 3.0 engines, pics included. http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61109. When you get the cams back it would be worth while doing a side by side comparison to a standard set.

Cheers

ouch..... thats not coool

i believe its all soughted now guys! timmy will post up later.

All sorted now the cam cog sheared the dowel off the camshaft, so the cam gear was 45degrees out throwing the cam itself out. Thats why it looked like the timing was correct but it wouldnt start!

So basically will all be good this arvo

All sorted now the cam cog sheared the dowel off the camshaft, so the cam gear was 45degrees out throwing the cam itself out. Thats why it looked like the timing was correct but it wouldnt start!

So basically will all be good this arvo

Swweeet. Good to hear its all ok! Bet your happy!

Swweeet. Good to hear its all ok! Bet your happy!

Yeh after the day i have had, needed some good news! Cant wait to get back into it now :woot:

Maaate good to hear. Looks like smiles all round.

Good to hear timmy, let us know how it drives :) i bet you will have some sexy time with your mana after this!

Yeh for sure hey, was getting to me there for a bit lol all done now, from what i understand the 2nd mech who worked on it put the front cam gear on incorrectly (45 or 90 degrees out) so therefore the cam was in the worng position, and that also made the timing look correct as the belt was in the right place still. So it had compression on the rear back of cylinders, but none on the front. Weird mistake guy has done a fair few major magna services so he knows about the cam gears and belt setup, he just ****ed up basically.

But all good in the end, get it back tomorrow when i get back to work :woot: then i finally get to see how it drives with them working!

Complete noob with mechanics but was wondering what would happen if you upgrade the cams like you have done? more HP?

good to hear the magna's back on the road, shall have to make it to a meet to have a look soon haha
cheers mate

Complete noob with mechanics but was wondering what would happen if you upgrade the cams like you have done? more HP?


These on their own wont net me a big gain i dont think, but will be a very useful mod when i get the car tuned. However still hoping for 5kw atw the gain anyway, not sure if i will get it but we will see. From what i have read they allow the car to rev a bit higher without loosing power, and slightly more torque accross the rev range.

ohh okay then sounds pretty cool haha, really need to pay attention in automotive at school haha

PHEWWW! beauty mate.

Ok car is now all done, just bout to go for the first proper drive :woot:

One thing seems tho, to be idling too high. Starts at about 1500rpm then drops to about 1000-1100rpm, not sure if that will change after i run it in for a bit or not, but we will see. Just hope this is the end of the problems!

have you reset the ecu?

Ok car is now all done, just bout to go for the first proper drive :woot:

One thing seems tho, to be idling too high. Starts at about 1500rpm then drops to about 1000-1100rpm, not sure if that will change after i run it in for a bit or not, but we will see. Just hope this is the end of the problems!

Screw the idle screw in mate until it gets to about 800RPMish.

;1066766']Screw the idle screw in mate until it gets to about 800RPMish.

Figured that would be the fix, its still doing it so will investigate that soon. So im a right n00b with this stuff, where is the screw located, throttlebody or something?

its on the throttle body
if standing on the passenger side of the car looking at the throttle body its in the bottom right hand corner
its a screw with a nut on it

Cheers Rob, my mechanic is going to do a base idle reset on monday so all will be good. Another problem turned up today tho, horn doesnt work :confused: another job for my mate on Monday lol

wat the hell is with your car lol it doesnt like mods! well at leasy you got it running now tho thats a good thing did you notice any difference in your drive? mine idles the same but feels a bit rough, nothing compared to mike's of course!

wat the hell is with your car lol it doesnt like mods! well at leasy you got it running now tho thats a good thing did you notice any difference in your drive? mine idles the same but feels a bit rough, nothing compared to mike's of course!

mine rough? nah what you talking about fool, im pondering about going bigger, ill decide once tuned :)










once the manual is in of course :woot:

lol just gonna drive around a big black vibrator then? do they do ones bigger then what you have already?!

i want the road to vibrate from a kilometre away lol

i got the equivalent to stage 2 cams, i was thinking 272 degree duration or 282, nothing to crazy lol

wat the hell is with your car lol it doesnt like mods! well at leasy you got it running now tho thats a good thing did you notice any difference in your drive? mine idles the same but feels a bit rough, nothing compared to mike's of course!

Yeh dude car is running sweet check my members ride thread


lol just gonna drive around a big black vibrator then? do they do ones bigger then what you have already?!

How do you know Mike has a big black vibrator kenny lol

coz we can hear him COMING from a mile away!! hahahaha

Yeh dude car is running sweet check my members ride thread



shouldnt you put a smile next to your ralliart cams title now?

coz we can hear him COMING from a mile away!! hahahaha

:bowrofl:


shouldnt you put a smile next to your ralliart cams title now?

Mmmm good point lol

Got 2 nice aesthetic mods coming next month, free ones as well!

All sorted now the cam cog sheared the dowel off the camshaft, so the cam gear was 45degrees out throwing the cam itself out. Thats why it looked like the timing was correct but it wouldnt start!

So basically will all be good this arvo

Sorry I haven't had the computer running for a week. Too busy to get to it so missed your message and plea for help.

The dowel shearing off is not a cam fault. Its the fault of the clot who fitted the cam! It means he/they didn't tension the cam sprocket correctly. The dowel only locates the sprocket to ensure correct valve timing. It doesn't transmit drive. They only way it can shear is if the bolt isn't tensioned correctly. It is clamping friction between the sprocket and nose of the cam that actually drives the cam.

That is a worry as it means the other cam bolt and the crank pulley bolt probably haven't been correctly tensioned either. I would suggest that you get them tensioned by someone who knows what they are doing. The service manual (available here on the forum) lists the tensions.

You were fortunate that you didn't get the front bank valves bent this time round, but you may not be so fortunate if the rear bank dowel shears. Or if the harmonic balancer comes loose you could wreck the crank. The harmonic balancer can come right off and rip through the firewall, the bonnet etc, just like a flywheel exploding.

Cheers,
Alan