Hi all, I fitted the thermobloc gasket along with snorkel , K&N, lower reso and a MAF mod last night with the help of a friend a reli and a bottle of scotch!.Not sure about my results though. Temps at the TB dropped from 37to 27 and from 59 to 39 at the point were the top manifold joins the bottom one.I could not touch the manifold for more than a couple of secs before but know can touch indefinatley.These readings taken with a thermocouple on my multimeter seem quite extreme,have you guys that have fitted this gasket seen similar results or is my meter stuffed or was the scotch kicking in! RPW state that every 5 degrees temp decrease = a 1% power increase! If true,and my results correct, that would make this a very worthy mod considering the cost and ease of fittment.Cheers.Mark

I would not trust RPW, but it is true that colder air does give more power. This is because colder air is more dense then hot air, this allows more air to get in to the engine faster.

if i recall 10 degrees F( 5.55 Deg C) = +1% power and torque

Yes, I got one fitted earlier this week. I wouldn't hold my breath for power gains. It's more likely that over a period of time it'll maintain your present power level by keeping that intake charge at reasonable temperature levels.

I'm not sold on the theory.....once heat- soak has settled in I can't see it being any cooler!

I'm not sold on the theory.....once heat-sink has settled in I can't see it being any cooler!

i agree. the heat generated under bonnet would eventually sink into the manifold. weather it via the air or via the lower manifold. it still is joined via bolts that heat can go through.

Might let the car sit there running for a period of time then take some readings between the upper and lower manifold.Would you guys agree though that while the car is moving , heat sink through engine bay temp shouldn't be an issue?

Might let the car sit there running for a period of time then take some readings between the upper and lower manifold.Would you guys agree though that while the car is moving , heat sink through engine bay temp shouldn't be an issue?

when your driving the engine is under load therefore producing more heat. radiator fan blows hot air into engine bay via radiator. exhuast puts out more heat while underload.

when your driving the engine is under load therefore producing more heat. radiator fan blows hot air into engine bay via radiator. exhuast puts out more heat while underload.

Yes agreed, but I would've though all that air coming into the engine bay ,especially at speeds above 60,has to go somewhere and when it does it takes alot of heat with it.COOL air in HOT air out! Just a theory.

when sitting the manifold will collect heat, but once your moving and more air is being drawn into the engine bay and into the intake the manifold does cool down again

i drive 27km to work taking 30 - 45 minutes with both bumper to bumper and highway speeds. when i get to work if i pop my bonnet then the intake is still quite bearable to touch.

phenolic gaskets are nothing new... many a holley or even oem carby was fitted with one

here's a good article: http://www.autospeed.com/A_110474/cms/article.html

Thanks mate for that link.Just read it....nuff said I reckon! Yes definately nothing new with old V8's etc,big **** one under the quadrajet I yanked off the chev.

Thanks mate for that link.Just read it....nuff said I reckon! Yes definately nothing new with old V8's etc,big **** one under the quadrajet I yanked off the chev.
Outlaw engineering also do them and their article is worth a read. Interestingly the diagrams bear a striking resemblance (absolutely bl00dy identical!!) to the RPW ones. Mmmm.
http://www.outlawengineering.com/techframe.html
I think the jury is still out on the effectiveness of them. Definitely not on the top of the list of things to do!

if Al was such a good material for manifolds then why do modern engines have plastic plenums?.... aside from weight.... and cost

Outlaw engineering also do them and their article is worth a read. Interestingly the diagrams bear a striking resemblance (absolutely bl00dy identical!!) to the RPW ones. Mmmm.
http://www.outlawengineering.com/techframe.html
I think the jury is still out on the effectiveness of them. Definitely not on the top of the list of things to do!

Wadda ya mean jury still out! Did you go to that link? Have you read previous posts?Trust me on this ,you could fry an egg on the inlet before I fitted this!All these cheap little mods combined together are well worthwile for money outlaid.Especially if you fit the gear your self,its dead easy(20mins for thermob) Get a mate or 2 over ,have a beer or 2 and do the K&N ,90mm,bottom res mod and thermobloc all in one go. Its all good Matey!

Nothing wrong with a warm inlet manifold, in fact car manufacturers have gone our of their way to warm them as quickly as possible when the engine is cold.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is part of the thermal strategy of the engine to dissipate heat via the inlet manifold on a 380.

It could well be that an aftermarket insulator may cause an unintended hot spot under the bonnet.

My opinion is that this may be just as much a waste of time as a KN panel filter.

For both instances you are far better off to introduce more cold air by opening the bottom of the filter box to allow more air in.


More cold air in...cooler inlet manifold....cost?...zero dollars.

By opening the bottom of the airbox you mean the lower resonator mod yes? Yeah I agree,nothing wrong with a warm manifold,but not a steaming hot one and the thermal stategy theory would possibly be hard to prove.At the end of the day these little mods add about 20hp(K&N 3 of that),add the thermobloc and bring the for every 10d drop in inlet air temp = 1% increase in power&torque equation into it and well I guess its up to you !But I'm happy as a pig in ****.Those hp readings were on a dyno and I suspect on the road with more airflow on a cool day the inlet mods would be even better hp wise. Oh and welcome mate.

If you've done it on a dyno...then my apologies..can't argue with it at all in that case.

In fact it's worth a longer look indeed.


edit: lower resonator mod...yep

I've got it stuck in my head that every 3 degrees celsius is worth 1hp - not a percentage.

I don't think these insulators would make much of a difference because what you are measuring the temperature of is the manifold, not the air.
The air is coming from outside the car at 20C. It goes through the intake to the manifold which was 59C. It's there for 0.1 seconds before being used for combustion in a cylinder. In that time it may have heated up to 22C?? If this is true, then reducing the temp of the manifold to 39 would mean the inlet air would only heat up to 21C (assuming that every 20C hotter the manifold is will introduce a 1C increase in induction air temperature)

I know nothing as a fact here, just speculating, but Blackstar's theory of it being an intentional method of cooling the engine makes more sense to me than this providing significantly colder air into the engine as the air shouldn't have time to heat up anyway.

My opinion is that this may be just as much a waste of time as a KN panel filter.


Firstly, welcome to AMC.

Secondly, you might find by searching that a lot of what you are discussing has been posted in the last two years or so and it's worth finding out about what has gone before.

Specifically, the K&N does add some hp but more importantly it helps throttle responsiveness.

There are some dyno results - Post #34

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52831&page=4

thanks for the welcome.

yeah...read all that, even after finding the wood through the trees....LOL

Agreed about the intake snorkel, but the KN filter?...nah...nothing to rave about me thinks.

Better to put the 100 bucks towards the exhaust.

BTW...can tell you the TMR teams don't use KN filters...they use stock....

Agreed about the intake snorkel, but the KN filter?...nah...nothing to rave about me thinks.

Better to put the 100 bucks towards the exhaust.

BTW...can tell you the TMR teams don't use KN filters...they use stock....

Well the exhaust is probably the first thing I would mod so you are right there. But the K&N is worth it with the 90mm intake. I'm not sure if you have that yet. If not, get them together.

Don't worry about TMR and the 380; our experience is they are mediocre with their setup.

Did any one that bothered to go to the Outlaw site think that the dyno results were legit or BS? Did anyone look at other sites and there results? I don't believe everything I read but when your not an engineer with a dyno to use but you see alot of people saying the same thing then I will take it on board when making a decision.I don't dismiss things because I think there BS unless I've done my homework.ie reading forums before I post and spending time on the internet to see experts/dheads opinions.This is the beauty of forums and the www in general, to decipher BS from fact and make an informed decision.I've gone with the spacer cos I've done my homework,lots of people say its worth 5-10 tested hp,and I'm happy to believe that.Why don't you believe them ,what is your experience/background in this field to say otherwise?I'm more than happy to eat humble pie if you can show me something to say all these guys are tossers!Otherwise your just guessing!

Wadda ya mean jury still out! Did you go to that link? Have you read previous posts?Trust me on this ,you could fry an egg on the inlet before I fitted this!All these cheap little mods combined together are well worthwile for money outlaid.Especially if you fit the gear your self,its dead easy(20mins for thermob) Get a mate or 2 over ,have a beer or 2 and do the K&N ,90mm,bottom res mod and thermobloc all in one go. Its all good Matey!
Now that's what I am after. Someone who has done it and seen results. I am a cynical creature by nature as there are so many people out there spruiking BS about there product. Did you get the RPW thermoblock? Did it include one for the throttle body? Any probs with the stud lengths with it?

Nothing wrong with a warm inlet manifold, in fact car manufacturers have gone our of their way to warm them as quickly as possible when the engine is cold.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is part of the thermal strategy of the engine to dissipate heat via the inlet manifold on a 380.

It could well be that an aftermarket insulator may cause an unintended hot spot under the bonnet.

My opinion is that this may be just as much a waste of time as a KN panel filter.

For both instances you are far better off to introduce more cold air by opening the bottom of the filter box to allow more air in.


More cold air in...cooler inlet manifold....cost?...zero dollars.
The inlet manifold is never intended and should never be intended as a heat sink. If the motor depends on this to cool it as opposed to the capillery oil and water system then it would be courting disaster. I am about to get the 3" snorkel and have already opened up the bottom of the resonator chamber. I have run that for a few tanks with a pleasing result. I will assess the 3" snorkel for around the same period before going further. Ps why do you beleive the K and N filter is a waste of time? Have you tried it? Do you have any figures to back it up? I know that TMR run paper elements in their race cars due to alleged erratic performance on the K and N, but the general consesus here would indicate and increase in performance. We are talking apples and oranges here. A race built motor regardless of mods is a totally different animal to a standard motor. We are all after "the best" we can do, but it is prudent to back up opinion with data. Your opinion is appreciated.

By opening the bottom of the airbox you mean the lower resonator mod yes? Yeah I agree,nothing wrong with a warm manifold,but not a steaming hot one and the thermal stategy theory would possibly be hard to prove.At the end of the day these little mods add about 20hp(K&N 3 of that),add the thermobloc and bring the for every 10d drop in inlet air temp = 1% increase in power&torque equation into it and well I guess its up to you !But I'm happy as a pig in ****.Those hp readings were on a dyno and I suspect on the road with more airflow on a cool day the inlet mods would be even better hp wise. Oh and welcome mate.

cheers back to you. Love this site!! Great for bouncing ideas around. Some nice rides out there!! Mind you I was happy to pick up my 2006 VRX with 69000 for $13800. Thats a lot of depreciation in a short time!

Now that's what I am after. Someone who has done it and seen results. I am a cynical creature by nature as there are so many people out there spruiking BS about there product. Did you get the RPW thermoblock? Did it include one for the throttle body? Any probs with the stud lengths with it?

They only supply the manifold gasket as the 380 throttle body isn't heated & doesn't require the phenolic gasket. Stud length is fine too.

They only supply the manifold gasket as the 380 throttle body isn't heated & doesn't require the phenolic gasket. Stud length is fine too.
Excellent! It has just climbed the list a bit:facejump:

The inlet manifold is never intended and should never be intended as a heat sink. If the motor depends on this to cool it as opposed to the capillery oil and water system then it would be courting disaster.
.

Sometimes the overall design of a piece of equipment is so finely tuned that aspects aren't always apparent with a cursory glance.

Remember that teams of engineers were involved in the engine design and drivetrain placement, the acoustics,the relevant compliances etc etc.

I find it beggars belief that they would have overlooked a simple thermal gasket or an air filter as giving such an improvement.

More likely there will be a particular situation that you and I haven't considered, that is a part of good engineering design, in a particular climate, or in a country with specific emmissions standards...etc etc etc.

When Iook at the final product, it's placement under the bonnet, the performance ...I see a well engineered solution.

Now who would I trust...an aftermarket company or the original design team?...I think I'll run with Mitsubishi.

In terms of your insistance that the manifold isn't part of the thermal solution...all situations aren't glaringly obvious until you start designing something.

Would you be happy with a car that will not start if you took it overnight to the snow fields for example?

The inlet manifold would indeed be part of the overall temp dissipation solution, in the modelling they would have had to do it would have been displayed as part of the air flow through the engine bay.


Another thermal dissipator is the exhaust and associated manifold.




I am about to get the 3" snorkel and have already opened up the bottom of the resonator chamber. I have run that for a few tanks with a pleasing result. I will assess the 3" snorkel for around the same period before going further..

My experience is that these are the best mods one can do without compromising the warranty.

But...if you increase air in...you need to increase it out...the exhaust is the priority.

Those who do the exhaust attest to it.


Ps why do you beleive the K and N filter is a waste of time? Have you tried it? Do you have any figures to back it up?.

Yes...tried it and found it wasn't worth it.

Got the snorkel, sounds great...the sound makes me think it's got improved throttle response....
Will I dyno it to prove it? Nope....


I know that TMR run paper elements in their race cars due to alleged erratic performance on the K and N, but the general consesus here would indicate and increase in performance..

It comes down to who's opinion you want to accept.
If a guy has already bought a KN filter, he doesn't want to know it's a waste of cash.

I just say, don't bother cause the difference wasn't measurable except in the ear drums.



We are talking apples and oranges here. A race built motor regardless of mods is a totally different animal to a standard motor. We are all after "the best" we can do, but it is prudent to back up opinion with data. Your opinion is appreciated.

It's all about opinions, and I appreciate yours as well.

Agreed, most people here would love to have race car performance without all the expense of a race prepped car.

So....if the race team say it's a waste, why not divert the $100 to the exhaust instead?

The single biggest improvement to a 380 is the exhaust, I see it posted time and time again.

Pretty sure a member here "Foozrcool" has done more mods than anyone, reading his posts he says pretty much the same thing....

You got me thinking with the air flow and manifold....I reckon some bonnet scoops would be a good addition.

You dont have to dyno to prove it,it been done,proven.Why are you trying to disprove the proven?If MMl engineers were so smart why they have to put a snorkel for a 4cylinder on a 6 to get into the country.You have basically said all aftermarket is shit? If factory was so good why is the aftermarket industry worth billions?Exhaust is aftermarket yes?but you seem happy to do that!What race team? Go tell all the commie boys that had the first lot of Canadian built chevs how good factory engineering is.LOL Hey nice pic

Nice car!

that would have being the DC 380 as it bring in the current design cues from all the MMC sedan platforms

OH I wish OH I WISH

I so want it bad!

that would have being the DC 380 as it bring in the current design cues from all the MMC sedan platforms

OH I wish OH I WISH

I so want it bad!



LOL.....its a photoshop cut....found it on a forum where you couldn't understand what they were saying...

Looks like a bit of Evo and a bit of ford XB bonnet scoops.

I am seriously thinking of doing that bonnet mod.


Can anyone work out whether the Evo scoop is available as a spare part?

LOL.....its a photoshop cut....found it on a forum where you couldn't understand what they were saying...

Looks like a bit of Evo and a bit of ford XB bonnet scoops.

I am seriously thinking of doing that bonnet mod.

If only they did make them look like that I think they might have been better received by the press and public alike.Copped abit over styling or lack off! I would buy that car for sure! Definately looks menacing.kinda makes the whole headlight thing work I reckon.

If only they did make them look like that I think they might have been better received by the press and public alike.Copped abit over styling or lack off! I would buy that car for sure! Definately looks menacing.kinda makes the whole headlight thing work I reckon.

For sure but would need AWD & a bit more go to match the looks (about 12PSI boost should do it) :happy:

LOL.....its a photoshop cut....found it on a forum where you couldn't understand what they were saying...

Looks like a bit of Evo and a bit of ford XB bonnet scoops.

I am seriously thinking of doing that bonnet mod.


Can anyone work out whether the Evo scoop is available as a spare part?
Hey! It looks like he is running his sprint tyres!! lol

Sometimes the overall design of a piece of equipment is so finely tuned that aspects aren't always apparent with a cursory glance.

Remember that teams of engineers were involved in the engine design and drivetrain placement, the acoustics,the relevant compliances etc etc.

I find it beggars belief that they would have overlooked a simple thermal gasket or an air filter as giving such an improvement.

More likely there will be a particular situation that you and I haven't considered, that is a part of good engineering design, in a particular climate, or in a country with specific emmissions standards...etc etc etc.

When Iook at the final product, it's placement under the bonnet, the performance ...I see a well engineered solution.

Now who would I trust...an aftermarket company or the original design team?...I think I'll run with Mitsubishi.

In terms of your insistance that the manifold isn't part of the thermal solution...all situations aren't glaringly obvious until you start designing something.

Would you be happy with a car that will not start if you took it overnight to the snow fields for example?

The inlet manifold would indeed be part of the overall temp dissipation solution, in the modelling they would have had to do it would have been displayed as part of the air flow through the engine bay.


Another thermal dissipator is the exhaust and associated manifold.




My experience is that these are the best mods one can do without compromising the warranty.

But...if you increase air in...you need to increase it out...the exhaust is the priority.

Those who do the exhaust attest to it.



Yes...tried it and found it wasn't worth it.

Got the snorkel, sounds great...the sound makes me think it's got improved throttle response....
Will I dyno it to prove it? Nope....



It comes down to who's opinion you want to accept.
If a guy has already bought a KN filter, he doesn't want to know it's a waste of cash.

I just say, don't bother cause the difference wasn't measurable except in the ear drums.




It's all about opinions, and I appreciate yours as well.

Agreed, most people here would love to have race car performance without all the expense of a race prepped car.

So....if the race team say it's a waste, why not divert the $100 to the exhaust instead?

The single biggest improvement to a 380 is the exhaust, I see it posted time and time again.

Pretty sure a member here "Foozrcool" has done more mods than anyone, reading his posts he says pretty much the same thing....

You got me thinking with the air flow and manifold....I reckon some bonnet scoops would be a good addition.

I appreciate all you say but again they, in my belief and many people here, stuffed up with the air intake. If they were so smart why didnt they put the 90mm snorkel on as standard. For that matter why the hell didnt they use the mivec engine instead. and while we are at it why did they design 2 heads, one with valves and seats that wont run LPG and one that can. Why bother with the expense of the 2 setups? No, I dont have much faith in them at all. I have proved a great improvement in efficiency by the snorkel and opening of the resonance chamber. PS I have a car that wont start overnight at the snowfields...its a bl00dy subaru and it needs to warm up before it can be started. grrrr esp on powder days. You cant get away from the fact that the exhaust gets hot so i guess it stands to reason that it would serve to dissapate heat as well as exhaust gases. We dont know that the race team say that it is a waste we only have someones word on that. Apparently for them it gave erratic lap times. I guess a fly by night company like K and N who have sold over 20 million filters since 1969 (according to them and I am not about to doubt it) have a product that doesnt work, so it would appear that 20 million people over 40 years have all been duped into thinking that it actually does something! or you could run with what someone says TMR says without any figures. The exhaust is a serious consideration but I dont want a noisy exhaust so will have to make sure of what I am getting before I go ahead. I think that the berklee one got louder as it got older from what I have been told by one who fitted it.

Guys,

Check out the 380 dyno thread, I might be able to shed some light on some of these arguments.

While Steve Knight was dynoing my car I asked him lots of questions, and in summary his answers were:

K&N panel - no better than the stocker for power. MMAL toyed with two different filters and in the end chose the less restrictive one for the 380, and it's pretty good.

Straight through muffler - definitely worth doing, makes a big difference, the stocker is very restrictive.

Extractors - definitely worth doing, the two pre-cats in the stock exhaust manifolds are very restrictive. Even better if the 3rd 'pretend' cat is replaced with a high flow cat.

90mm intake snorkel - definitely worth doing. Not a huge benefit, but worthwhile in combo with the previous mods.

Cut lower resonator - doubtful if it achieves much per my dyno tests, but might be worthwhile for others who have done only the basic mods.

POD intake - waste of time & money, too much engine bay heat (but not your set up Fooz!).

Thermobloc gaskets (plenum and/or throttle body) - waste of time & money, don't do anything useful.

Piggyback ECU - not needed if you run 98 RON.

Of course these are the opinions of just one Mitsu tuner who hasn't done a lot on 380s, but he is ex MMAL and is very well respected in SA.

KJ.

Guys,

Check out the 380 dyno thread, I might be able to shed some light on some of these arguments.

While Steve Knight was dynoing my car I asked him lots of questions, and in summary his answers were:

K&N panel - no better than the stocker for power. MMAL toyed with two different filters and in the end chose the less restrictive one for the 380, and it's pretty good.

Straight through muffler - definitely worth doing, makes a big difference, the stocker is very restrictive.

Extractors - definitely worth doing, the two pre-cats in the stock exhaust manifolds are very restrictive. Even better if the 3rd 'pretend' cat is replaced with a high flow cat.

90mm intake snorkel - definitely worth doing. Not a huge benefit, but worthwhile in combo with the previous mods.

Cut lower resonator - doubtful if it achieves much per my dyno tests, but might be worthwhile for others who have done only the basic mods.

POD intake - waste of time & money, too much engine bay heat (but not your set up Fooz!).

Thermobloc gaskets (plenum and/or throttle body) - waste of time & money, don't do anything useful.

Piggyback ECU - not needed if you run 98 RON.

Of course these are the opinions of just one Mitsu tuner who hasn't done a lot on 380s, but he is ex MMAL and is very well respected in SA.

KJ.


My thoughts exactly.



.

My thoughts exactly.



.

Good point!I would like to see the results of the before and after dyno testing with the thermobloc!

Good point!I would like to see the results of the before and after dyno testing with the thermobloc!

Wouldn't you like to see them too Blackstar?

Wouldn't you like to see them too Blackstar?

Yep...having a number from the Dyno is all important.

If the improvement is very large then we rush out and get one.

If the improvement is small, then it comes down to bang for buck...and I for one look elsewhere.