I guess after being told us auto boys are losing twice as much power as the manual fellas are ATW's ,because the box never truly locks up, I should ask the question! Can we mess with the auto's computer to make it lock up properly?Could be an easy way of claiming back some Kw's!

The manuals are definitely much more powerful.

BUT.

The gear ratios don't flatter the manual. It is actually no quicker than the auto over the quarter. All that extra power will be wasted in wheelspin.
If the manual boys want to capitilise on their power they need to change the diff ratio.

The manuals are definitely much more powerful.

BUT.

The gear ratios don't flatter the manual. It is actually no quicker than the auto over the quarter. All that extra power will be wasted in wheelspin.
If the manual boys want to capitilise on their power they need to change the diff ratio.

Yeah. fair call. So imagine if we could claim back some Kw's with a computer tickle then!:hmm:

The manuals are definitely much more powerful.

BUT.

The gear ratios don't flatter the manual. It is actually no quicker than the auto over the quarter. All that extra power will be wasted in wheelspin.
If the manual boys want to capitilise on their power they need to change the diff ratio.

Yep, you have a point there.

I find it very difficult to get a good launch in my manual, the line between massive wheelspin and bogging down is now very fine.

Even when I get a half decent launch it spins all the way through first to about 50km/h, then all the way through second to about 90km/h, then drops a big chirpy on the second to third change.

And as I have explained in other threads, it doesn't wind out in second or third. Second is all over at 90km/h and third is history at 120km/h.

But the payback is the in gear acceleration once rolling, especially 80km/h to 120km/h in third. I haven't timed this properly but I reckon my manual would leave nearly all autos for dead. Something around 3.5 seconds.

KJ.

Yep, you have a point there.

I find it very difficult to get a good launch in my manual, the line between massive wheelspin and bogging down is now very fine.

Even when I get a half decent launch it spins all the way through first to about 50km/h, then all the way through second to about 90km/h, then drops a big chirpy on the second to third change.

And as I have explained in other threads, it doesn't wind out in second or third. Second is all over at 90km/h and third is history at 120km/h.

But the payback is the in gear acceleration once rolling, especially 80km/h to 120km/h in third. I haven't timed this properly but I reckon my manual would leave nearly all autos for dead. Something around 3.5 seconds.

KJ.

Not surprised with 180+ATW's:woot:

There was a discussion on diffs awhile ago and it transpired that if you used the diff centre out of a manual Magna you would get a fairly good compromise. RPW apparently have centres for 380s on their website but i think it was Jason who pointed out they are the same ratios as the Magna.

If you go this far, KJ, you would have to get a Quaife LSD :dancin:

MEH

If I wanted to go real fast I would have brought a GT-R
I am lazy so auto rocks

but interesting how going back with a Magna diff would get better gains

I guess after being told us auto boys are losing twice as much power as the manual fellas are ATW's ,because the box never truly locks up, I should ask the question! Can we mess with the auto's computer to make it lock up properly?Could be an easy way of claiming back some Kw's!

converter lock up or torque reduction?,the converter shouldnt lock up before you are in top/ overdrive/cruise conditions anyways i think

converter lock up or torque reduction?,the converter shouldnt lock up before you are in top/ overdrive/cruise conditions anyways i think

Yes I think your right about the top gear/cruise scenario in day to day driving but in I've had a look at some drag racing sites and it seems there are gains to be had by making it lock up sooner and under load!

The manuals are definitely much more powerful.

BUT.

The gear ratios don't flatter the manual. It is actually no quicker than the auto over the quarter. All that extra power will be wasted in wheelspin.
If the manual boys want to capitilise on their power they need to change the diff ratio.

What is the ratio of 380 diffs? Is it still like the old days when all Fords had 4.11s for good take-offs, etc?

well the mercedes 7 speed auto locks the torque converter completely in sports mode so yes autos can. Whether or not the 5 speed auto in the 380 can be programmed to is another question

But the payback is the in gear acceleration once rolling, especially 80km/h to 120km/h in third. I haven't timed this properly but I reckon my manual would leave nearly all autos for dead. Something around 3.5 seconds.

KJ.


Are you absolutely, positively certain about that?


Are you sure it's not more like 5 seconds?

But the payback is the in gear acceleration once rolling, especially 80km/h to 120km/h in third. I haven't timed this properly but I reckon my manual would leave nearly all autos for dead. Something around 3.5 seconds.

KJ.

You are right about it being faster in gear but your time is off. Unless you have bolted on a turbo I seriously doubt you can get close to 3.5 seconds. That is XR6 turbo territory.

For the 380 Wheels clocked the base manual in 3rd as 80-120 in 4.4 seconds and VRX 4.5 seconds.

The auto in drive is 5.3 seconds. I can't find a test of the auto in 3rd (most magazines leave them in drive). Either way I have no doubt that you are right about the manual.

You are right about it being faster in gear but your time is off. Unless you have bolted on a turbo I seriously doubt you can get close to 3.5 seconds. That is XR6 turbo territory.

For the 380 Wheels clocked the base manual in 3rd as 80-120 in 4.4 seconds and VRX 4.5 seconds.

The auto in drive is 5.3 seconds. I can't find a test of the auto in 3rd (most magazines leave them in drive). Either way I have no doubt that you are right about the manual.

So the stock manual is 4.4 seconds, just in case you haven't noticed KJ has approx 35 KW at the engine more than stock which would improve on that time.

So the stock manual is 4.4 seconds, just in case you haven't noticed KJ has approx 35 KW at the engine more than stock which would improve on that time.

3.5 seconds was just my 'seat of the pants' guess.

Mine is a base model, with the sunroof being the only weight adding option.

And going by my dyno figures I reckon 35kw over a stocker at the fly, around 210kw, is about right.

So maybe 3.5 was a tad optimistic, might be closer to four seconds.

S'pose I'll have to test it now after shooting off my big mouth!

KJ.

the thing is though the tmr concept car was a manual and supercharged. they had a few problems. the went through a couple clutches and blew 2 boxes while developing it. thats the reason why the 20 built are autos.

food for thought

the thing is though the tmr concept car was a manual and supercharged. they had a few problems. the went through a couple clutches and blew 2 boxes while developing it. thats the reason why the 20 built are autos.

food for thought

Indeed!

What is the ratio of 380 diffs? Is it still like the old days when all Fords had 4.11s for good take-offs, etc?

Final drive for the manual is 4.111 and 3.325 for the auto

Final drive for the manual is 4.111 and 3.325 for the auto

Thanks. They don't look too bad (compared to the old V8 days when 3.08 was standard and 3.55 was a good upgrade).

3.5 seconds was just my 'seat of the pants' guess.

Mine is a base model, with the sunroof being the only weight adding option.

And going by my dyno figures I reckon 35kw over a stocker at the fly, around 210kw, is about right.

So maybe 3.5 was a tad optimistic, might be closer to four seconds.

S'pose I'll have to test it now after shooting off my big mouth!

KJ.

I timed mine in the EVO a while ago and got 2.8s.

Edit: 2.8s punching it from 60 and timing 80-120km/h. About 3.1 if I time from punching it from 80km/h. The difference is in the turbo lag.

3.5 seconds was just my 'seat of the pants' guess.

Mine is a base model, with the sunroof being the only weight adding option.

And going by my dyno figures I reckon 35kw over a stocker at the fly, around 210kw, is about right.

So maybe 3.5 was a tad optimistic, might be closer to four seconds.

S'pose I'll have to test it now after shooting off my big mouth!

KJ.

Went for a drive along the South Eastern Freeway and the Dukes Highway yesterday evening, and tried a few 80km/h to 120km/h runs in third gear. No stopwatch or timing gear, just 'counting', but I reckon it's just about spot on 4 seconds, give or take a tenth.

Little or no difference between sitting on a steady 80km/h then flooring it, or starting from say 60km/h, as there is no lag and instant response when I floor it.

KJ.

Went for a drive along the South Eastern Freeway and the Dukes Highway yesterday evening, and tried a few 80km/h to 120km/h runs in third gear. No stopwatch or timing gear, just 'counting', but I reckon it's just about spot on 4 seconds, give or take a tenth.

Little or no difference between sitting on a steady 80km/h then flooring it, or starting from say 60km/h, as there is no lag and instant response when I floor it.

KJ.

4 seconds or so is quick mate.

Turbo lag is to give V6's and V8's a chance. ;)

I timed mine in the EVO a while ago and got 2.8s.
Edit: 2.8s punching it from 60 and timing 80-120km/h. About 3.1 if I time from punching it from 80km/h. The difference is in the turbo lag.

I'm worried that you missed the point, but at least you clarified and provided 2 measurements.

Reason: I feel that timing acceleration from one speed to another is meant to be a real road measure, ie: cruising along at 80, need to overtake so floor it. Measuring the 80-120 component of a 60-120 acceleration run misses the point IMO, but with factual numbers and having your explanation, it makes it even better - more accurate data = more knowledge.

Quick question on the EVO, if you were going up a hill at 80 in 3rd, would it have less lag? I had a L200 Ute with a Starion/Cordia turbo engine + Microtec a long time back, it would boost hard up hills and just a touch of the accelerator would make it surge powerfully. :)

I'm worried that you missed the point, but at least you clarified and provided 2 measurements.

Reason: I feel that timing acceleration from one speed to another is meant to be a real road measure, ie: cruising along at 80, need to overtake so floor it. Measuring the 80-120 component of a 60-120 acceleration run misses the point IMO, but with factual numbers and having your explanation, it makes it even better - more accurate data = more knowledge.

Quick question on the EVO, if you were going up a hill at 80 in 3rd, would it have less lag? I had a L200 Ute with a Starion/Cordia turbo engine + Microtec a long time back, it would boost hard up hills and just a touch of the accelerator would make it surge powerfully. :)

Oggy,

Good points.

No-one with a manual trans 380 is going to cruise at 80km/h in third gear, they'll be in either fifth or fourth. Mostly in fifth I suspect.

So in a 'real world' situation my tests were not particularly realistic, a realistic test would go like this:

1. Decide "I'm going to overtake, and I'm going to do it as quickly as possible" (is there any other way to overtake with max safety!)

2. Change down from fifth to third.

3. Nail it.

Which of course factors in thinking time, decision time and gear change time. The last one, gear change time, may or may not vary much between manual & auto, and with the auto whether you just kick it down or use the manual change method.

But the point of this thread was to compare max power atw between a manual and an auto and ask why the 380 auto box seems to lose so much more than the manual.

My 80 to 120 times were designed simply to illustrate that a combination of a manual transmission & relatively simple mods can give a 380 pretty good highway overtaking times, times approaching those of traditional Aussie performance cars such as later model V8 Commodores and turbo Falcons.

KJ.

the thing is though the tmr concept car was a manual and supercharged. they had a few problems. the went through a couple clutches and blew 2 boxes while developing it. thats the reason why the 20 built are autos.

food for thought

That doesnt make sense though as the 380 manual is basically the 3.5L magna manual with a lower diff ratio. Now we have people in this club that have NA and forced induced magnas putting out more power and torque than the TMR 380 and they havnt "blowen" gearboxes when they have had a decent LSD fitted.

Now i can tell you the clutch in my magna (1650kg clamp force) will take a sheetload more grunt than im putting thru it and its still a fairly nice daily drive type clutch and then the old ralliart LSD in mine and TZABOY's (and i think QMD801) have taken a hell of a beating and not yet have they gone bang and we are all putting out more power than the TMR380 had.

As steve knight said, the manual with a LSD is a stronger box than the auto BUT they can make the auto last by having it do "soft shifts" and be slushy like normal FWD autos are (this absorbs any shift shock unlike a manual that has the clucth dumped all the time).

I'm worried that you missed the point, but at least you clarified and provided 2 measurements.

Reason: I feel that timing acceleration from one speed to another is meant to be a real road measure, ie: cruising along at 80, need to overtake so floor it. Measuring the 80-120 component of a 60-120 acceleration run misses the point IMO, but with factual numbers and having your explanation, it makes it even better - more accurate data = more knowledge.

Quick question on the EVO, if you were going up a hill at 80 in 3rd, would it have less lag? I had a L200 Ute with a Starion/Cordia turbo engine + Microtec a long time back, it would boost hard up hills and just a touch of the accelerator would make it surge powerfully. :)

The reason I included both times was because the first method of nailing it from 60km/h and timing from 80-120 is how magazines time the runs. The second method I thought to be a more true indication.

As for going up a hill - I think it just feels the same.

Magazines do it that way? Woohoo, I've learned something today. :)

In that case, you saw the point far better than I did, thanks.

The 0-100 in auto versus manual would be interesting, simply due to how well traction management is handled in the manual.

I know with top quality rubber one can just flatten the pedal in the auto almost straight off (well in optimum weather conditions that is..LOL)


The 380 auto box loses more cause it does a gear change from 2nd to 3rd right on 100.
That would appear in the 80-120km/h test as a major blip smack in the middle in my opinion.

I know with top quality rubber one can just flatten the pedal in the auto almost straight off (well in optimum weather conditions that is..LOL).

Maybe if it's not modded. The standard Dunlop Sports on the VRX spin like crazy. My Falkens are much, much better but still break easily witha heavy foot.



The 380 auto box loses more cause it does a gear change from 2nd to 3rd right on 100.
That would appear in the 80-120km/h test as a major blip smack in the middle in my opinion.

2nd gear Tiptronic is a pain IMO. It's now far too short for my liking and flat out overtaking on the highway around 80kmh means the car drops into 2nd, screams it's head off, then launches after it hits third. Nothing manual changing wouldn't fix I suppose.

Maybe if it's not modded. The standard Dunlop Sports on the VRX spin like crazy. My Falkens are much, much better but still break easily witha heavy foot.
.

The TMR380 hardly spins at all is what I am told.

The 0-100 in auto versus manual would be interesting, simply due to how well traction management is handled in the manual.

That would appear in the 80-120km/h test as a major blip smack in the middle in my opinion.100km/h in the longer-geared Magna manual is ~6500rpm (105 if you go to the limiter). Can a 380 manual even do 100 in second?

The TMR380 hardly spins at all is what I am told.

Do the TMR's have a LSD?

Do the TMR's have a LSD?

Not as far as i know.

100km/h in the longer-geared Magna manual is ~6500rpm (105 if you go to the limiter). Can a 380 manual even do 100 in second?

No.

My manual maxes out at 80 in second and 130 in third, on the limiter (6250rpm) both times.

My old TE 3.0 manual, admittedly Unichipped so that it revved out better & higher than stock, used to max out at 110 in second and 150 in third.

KJ.

Do the TMR's have a LSD?

Nope. No "performance" auto magna or 380 had a LSD. They have all used the traction/trace control as a lame way of cutting wheelspin and aiding traction

No.

My manual maxes out at 80 in second and 130 in third, on the limiter (6250rpm) both times.

My old TE 3.0 manual, admittedly Unichipped so that it revved out better & higher than stock, used to max out at 110 in second and 150 in third.

KJ.

I didnt think adding a piggyback allowed revlimit increases?

I know my magna goes past 120 in second only because the factory revlimiter has been increased to 7800rpm

No.

My manual maxes out at 80 in second and 130 in third, on the limiter (6250rpm) both times.

My old TE 3.0 manual, admittedly Unichipped so that it revved out better & higher than stock, used to max out at 110 in second and 150 in third.

KJ.
80km/h in second in a 380 with the engine it has is a travesty. It should be revving to around 105-110km/h IMO.

80km/h in second in a 380 with the engine it has is a travesty. It should be revving to around 105-110km/h IMO.

Yeah but thats the issue when the limiter is set at 6250 and the car has a low diff ratio.
I reckon they shouldve stuck with the magna diff ratio (as the torque of the engine wouldve pulled it no worries) and put the lower first gear ratio in the gearbox like the 3L magna had, that way it wouldve got off the mark ok and had still had better overall crusing revs/economy due to the overall taller gearing from the taller diff.

I didnt think adding a piggyback allowed revlimit increases?

I know my magna goes past 120 in second only because the factory revlimiter has been increased to 7800rpm

All I know is before I had the Unichip fitted the TE hit the limiter at around 6,300 rpm, but after the Unichip was fitted it revved out to 7,200 rpm no problems.

I can only assume that the tuner who fitted the Unichip somehow programmed it, or it was already pre-programmed, to override the stock ECU rev limiter. This was back in 2001.

Makes me wonder whether a piggyback ECU on my 380 can be programmed to override the rev limiter.

But I also wonder whether the G675 will handle 7,000+ rpm with stock internals or would it have problems?

Maybe Foozrcool or Knotched who have piggyback ECUs on their 380s can shed some light.

KJ.

All I know is before I had the Unichip fitted the TE hit the limiter at around 6,300 rpm, but after the Unichip was fitted it revved out to 7,200 rpm no problems.

I can only assume that the tuner who fitted the Unichip somehow programmed it, or it was already pre-programmed, to override the stock ECU rev limiter. This was back in 2001.

Makes me wonder whether a piggyback ECU on my 380 can be programmed to override the rev limiter.

But I also wonder whether the G675 will handle 7,000+ rpm with stock internals or would it have problems?

Maybe Foozrcool or Knotched who have piggyback ECUs on their 380s can shed some light.

KJ.

Factory limiter on the 3L and 3.5L TE onwards magnas was 6750rpm + - 150rpm also if your going by the factory tacho then they arnt all that accurate after 6000rpm, mine in my TH (which is using the gauge cluster out of a TJ vrx) is out by 200rpm at 6500rpm,it reads 6500 but engine is only doing 6300 and by the time the car is banging the 7800rpm limiter its showing 7400rpm

Maybe Foozrcool or Knotched who have piggyback ECUs on their 380s can shed some light.

KJ.

As far as the Exede goes, it doesn't change any parameters for the ECU, so rev limit is the same.
Unless you were to do the cams there would be no point going past it.
Having been up there a few times (willowbank raceway) there is no useful power past 5700.

Jason is on the money re the diff. If you were to do this, you might be looking at a serious time for the 1/4 and it would save you fuel, tyres and transmission.

No.

My manual maxes out at 80 in second and 130 in third, on the limiter (6250rpm) both times.

My old TE 3.0 manual, admittedly Unichipped so that it revved out better & higher than stock, used to max out at 110 in second and 150 in third.

KJ.

hmm, my Hyundai Accent was able to do 100kmh in 2nd. What was Mitsubishi thinking when they were testing the manual for the 380?