Hey guys.

Just wondering if anyone has got a set of Ralliart/380(same?) cams in their AWD's?

If so, was there much improvment?

I've got a SKR tune booked in a few weeks and quickly trying to decide if its worth trying to get cams done before hand or if at all?

I have read that some think there isn't really much difference between late model(T/KJ onwards) magna's and ralliart's, cam wise.

Anyone done the upgrade in the AWD? worth it or not a huge difference?

I know Al has done it and got a huge improvment but he didn't have much luck with his previous set so its not really a good guide.
Also, what cam spec is in the KJ AWD? Being Series 2 KJ as that is when the AWD's started?

Thanks guys.

Question...

Does the fact that all the specs in the workshop manual are the same between the TJ and the Ralliart mean they had the same cams??

Same timing, overlap and duration as well as cam height and journal diam is listed when comapring the ralliart and the normal TJ specifications sheet?
I'd always understood they had different cams, but that makes me wonder?

There is a definate improvement, thats in my TJ VRX so im not sure of the effect in an AWD sorry mate. DSMAZDAGTR they are definately different cams, got mine off a ex Mits worker who is very knowledgeable. Main prob with them now is finding a set, not many left from what i heard

i scored a set yesterday, i'll let u know wots the diffrence once they are in; ;)

There is a definate improvement, thats in my TJ VRX so im not sure of the effect in an AWD sorry mate. DSMAZDAGTR they are definately different cams, got mine off a ex Mits worker who is very knowledgeable. Main prob with them now is finding a set, not many left from what i heard

I'm not doubting anyone on this as I said, I believed (believe?) them to be different also, but I just looked in the workshop manual to see what the differences are to be a useful informative person.

All I've done is read straight out of the manual 5 minutes ago, and now I want to know if someone can please explain why the specs are all the same in the workshop manual then?

Listed specs:
DAMMIT...... Why can't this forum support tables... :( Grrr....
Image attached..
Grr... No attachemtns... Image here:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7504/specsab.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/specsab.jpg/)

edit:

Now that I think about it some more, would that mean the the duration and lift is the same, but that perhaps the profile has been altered a little so as it opens and closes the valves faster / slower (ie: the slope of the cam is the difference).

A real quick and broad answer for you.

The actual production ralliart cams had the same duration as stock TJ cams only difference was approx 1.1mm more lift. Workshop manuals are pretty lame at best and most of the time the "finer" details are omitted or just plain wrong. It has been stated here many times by myself and others (ex MMAL) what the ralliart cams had over stock, its not much in the grand scheme of things but they are a better camshaft.

Nigel, I know the difference of mine now & when I bought the car is night & day.

Comparing it to what was in it before (tighe cams) & now isn't worth comparing at all.......lol.

I had mine advanced 4 degrees, to shift the torque range a bit lower, which is what I wanted. I also had extra spark added to my tune in the lower rev ranges to assist too. Car feels nearly as light as a FWD now......

It wont matter if you get the tune done before or after as Steve leaves enough room in the tune so it will step up when the cams are added. The only reason that I can see for putting the cams in first is if you were going to play around with advancing/ retarding the cams to suit your particular driving style. Then you'd save yourself extra dyno time.

Gimme a yell this weekend if you want & you can come for a spin & see for yourself.

Rather than starting another thread, I thought I might add to this one. alscall, after getting tuned by SKR, do you have to go back to them for servicing? If you service it at a Mitsi dealer, will they reset the tune?

Rather than starting another thread, I thought I might add to this one. alscall, after getting tuned by SKR, do you have to go back to them for servicing? If you service it at a Mitsi dealer, will they reset the tune?

Not according to Steve. The tune is there permanantly now.

Rather than starting another thread, I thought I might add to this one. alscall, after getting tuned by SKR, do you have to go back to them for servicing? If you service it at a Mitsi dealer, will they reset the tune?

Mitsi dealers cant wipe the tune on the magna/verada ecu's, they have very very limited access to any ecu parameters (not like ford and holden dealers can do lol)

i scored a set yesterday, i'll let u know wots the diffrence once they are in; ;)

Set them up 8 deg advanced from stock to help bottom and mid range grunt. Stock are 6 deg retarded. Retard helps smooth the idle and lowers emissions due to more ex gas recirculation but hurts power at all rpm.

Cheers,
Alan

Set them up 8 deg advanced from stock to help bottom and mid range grunt. Stock are 6 deg retarded. Retard helps smooth the idle and lowers emissions due to more ex gas recirculation but hurts power at all rpm.

Cheers,
Alan

This would only benefit street fighter owners then since there is no way to retrofit the egr mechanism

Thanks guys.

Don't think i will get a chance to get some cams at this stage.

Will be interesting to have a drive Al and compare now and after tune. You having ralli cams and me not.

Thanks again guys.

This would only benefit street fighter owners then since there is no way to retrofit the egr mechanism

huh? what does this have to do with the cams???

This would only benefit street fighter owners then since there is no way to retrofit the egr mechanism

No. Any time a cam is retarded it gives EGR effect by leaving ex valve open later. Allowing ex gas to be drawn back into the cylinder under certain operating conditions.

Cheers,
Alan

This would only benefit street fighter owners then since there is no way to retrofit the egr mechanism

SF owners dont even benefit from the SF itself let alone the addition of cams.

Set them up 8 deg advanced from stock to help bottom and mid range grunt. Stock are 6 deg retarded. Retard helps smooth the idle and lowers emissions due to more ex gas recirculation but hurts power at all rpm.

Cheers,
Alan

8 degrees, huh? Mine are only at 4 adv.

I'll have a play with this as soon as I hit the dyno again.

8 degrees, huh? Mine are only at 4 adv.

I'll have a play with this as soon as I hit the dyno again.

When we were playing around with Graham's high lift cams we checked clearances and the Ralliarts have huge valve to piston clearance so more advance is safe. Most cams need at least an actual 2 deg advance and up to about 8 deg. This depends on cam duration, engine operating rpm, lobe separation angles etc. We reckoned about 2-3 deg was about right for a mild cam like the Ralliart. With mild cams a lot of extra advance doesn't help much.

On V8 supercars with long duration cams ground on 98-102 deg lobe separation we generally run about 6-8 deg adv depending on how well the car gets it power down out of corners. Less adv cuts low rpm HP/torque so reduces wheelspin.

Cheers,
Alan

When we were playing around with Graham's high lift cams we checked clearances and the Ralliarts have huge valve to piston clearance so more advance is safe. Most cams need at least an actual 2 deg advance and up to about 8 deg. This depends on cam duration, engine operating rpm, lobe separation angles etc. We reckoned about 2-3 deg was about right for a mild cam like the Ralliart. With mild cams a lot of extra advance doesn't help much.

On V8 supercars with long duration cams ground on 98-102 deg lobe separation we generally run about 6-8 deg adv depending on how well the car gets it power down out of corners. Less adv cuts low rpm HP/torque so reduces wheelspin.

Cheers,
Alan

Even the 270 cams in my donkey engine are advanced 3 and 5 degrees. We played around with more advance and less advance and what we settled on seemed to work the best overall

huh? what does this have to do with the cams???

I was referring to this comment "Retard helps smooth the idle and lowers emissions due to more ex gas recirculation but hurts power at all rpm."

Surely without the exhaust gases recirculating, the idle would improve or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

I was referring to this comment "Retard helps smooth the idle and lowers emissions due to more ex gas recirculation but hurts power at all rpm."

Surely without the exhaust gases recirculating, the idle would improve or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

EGR is just an emission related thing. It reduces the combustion temperature which lowers NOx emissions.

nevermind, i am just babbling and got Alan's comment out of context

Hey guys.

Just wondering if anyone has got a set of Ralliart/380(same?) cams in their AWD's?

If so, was there much improvment?

I've got a SKR tune booked in a few weeks and quickly trying to decide if its worth trying to get cams done before hand or if at all?

I have read that some think there isn't really much difference between late model(T/KJ onwards) magna's and ralliart's, cam wise.

Anyone done the upgrade in the AWD? worth it or not a huge difference?

I know Al has done it and got a huge improvment but he didn't have much luck with his previous set so its not really a good guide.
Also, what cam spec is in the KJ AWD? Being Series 2 KJ as that is when the AWD's started?

Thanks guys.

I have done the whole Ralliart addition to my AWD VRX, I was lucky enough to work at Mitsi's and knew the right people and got my AWD built with a Ralliart motor.
Going on the other Dyno thread mine would appear to have much more than standard AWD's (including those with SKR re-tunes)
Mine has also had a SKR re-tune which has finally got me 125.6KW atw using 95RON.
I am sure that Ralliart cams would improve any stock motor but a SKR re-tune will give more. (so do both !!)

CHEERS

You have 125.6kw atw? That sounds like a hell of a lot.

I have now got ralliart cams in mine. Made a huge difference.

I have HM headers, hi flow cat, sports exhaust, and skr tune and put out 107kw atw.
It was the hightest AWD output wih these mild mods at the moment. I havent been back to steves since cams but expect to get maybe to 112kw.

Where did you get your's dyno'd? 125 seems a little high. May just be a different ramp rate.

You have 125.6kw atw? That sounds like a hell of a lot.

I have now got ralliart cams in mine. Made a huge difference.

I have HM headers, hi flow cat, sports exhaust, and skr tune and put out 107kw atw.
It was the hightest AWD output wih these mild mods at the moment. I havent been back to steves since cams but expect to get maybe to 112kw.

Where did you get your's dyno'd? 125 seems a little high. May just be a different ramp rate.

There was an issue with Steves dyno that read high on the rear wheels for some reason. I know it has been fixed now and the numbers it gives are more realistic.

Oh ok, so that 125kw reading was from steves?

Cool, makes me feel better that we ae not missing something.

You have 125.6kw atw? That sounds like a hell of a lot.

I have now got ralliart cams in mine. Made a huge difference.

I have HM headers, hi flow cat, sports exhaust, and skr tune and put out 107kw atw.
It was the hightest AWD output wih these mild mods at the moment. I havent been back to steves since cams but expect to get maybe to 112kw.

Where did you get your's dyno'd? 125 seems a little high. May just be a different ramp rate.

Howdy,
Remember mine engine is a full Ralliart not just cams. (Engine Kw's closer to 180kw)
I had mine dyno'd at Graham West before SKR tune and it was getting consistent 119Kw's
So it is about right that I would get an extra 7 kw's from Steve's tinkering.
Remember I still only run 95 RON....so still have room to play if I want to run 98 only.
As per normal, I would always like more but this car is a daily drive and I want it to be practical.

btw: HM Headers do bugger all, you are better off getting some better aftermarket pipes which help the motor to breath. Trust me I was involved in the approval of these headers and they did not give any increase into the dyno results on test.

cheers

I would disagree that HM headers do nothing.

I have put them, but also hi flow cat, ralli cams and had a steve tune done.
I did them all at different times and I would say that the biggest improvment in power out of everything by a long shot was due to the HM headers.

I have heard that there isnt a huge difference to the FWD with hedders but a huge difference with the AWD due to its poor rear bank setup.

btw: HM Headers do bugger all, you are better off getting some better aftermarket pipes which help the motor to breath. Trust me I was involved in the approval of these headers and they did not give any increase into the dyno results on test.

cheers

THANK YOU!! For all the tools that have been up me for the rent on recommending ANYTHING over HMs, especially a set of Hurricanes; there it is in black and white.

For any folks interested, my AWD has a Ralliart spec motor (with additional head work, balancing, etc etc), and will be naturally aspirated for another week at least. If you want to know how this setup runs send me a pm and I'll get you behind the wheel if we can. Newcastle NSW.

Regards,

Ian

Hi all- the knowledge base on this site is really amazing- my question is simple- living in SE QLD, who or where should I go to to see about what appears to be- for someone with this experience- a fairly simple modification, that is getting some advance on the cams- in line with what Alan is suggesting for my TL AWD?- I imagine the local Mistsu dealer service section would not want to know anything about this type of dark magic. Also an estimate of likely cost for it to be done would be good? The car is just coming due for 90k timing belt- so is it likely that the cam adjustment could be done at the same time and save a few $ along the way and still pick up a few extra ponies?

Adjustable cam gears. The 90k service is the BEST time for it. $300+ for cam gears, good luck tracking down ralliart sticks.

THANK YOU!! For all the tools that have been up me for the rent on recommending ANYTHING over HMs, especially a set of Hurricanes; there it is in black and white.

For any folks interested, my AWD has a Ralliart spec motor (with additional head work, balancing, etc etc), and will be naturally aspirated for another week at least. If you want to know how this setup runs send me a pm and I'll get you behind the wheel if we can. Newcastle NSW.

Regards,

Ian

Hey mate. Did you read my post before your one?

I have done the following to my AWD.

HM Extractors;
Hi flow cat;
sports exhaust system;
ralliart cams;
steve knight tune.

Out of all those mods which were done one by one, the HM extractors made the biggest improvment in power and torque by FAR over any of the others so the statment that HM extractors do nothing isjust plain FALSE!

As i said before, this may be true with the FWD versions as they already have a good flowing exhaust but the stock AWD setup is appaling.

And also, the HM setup is much neater that anything else. Bolt straight on without any mods/cutting/welding needed. Very neat fit indeed which also allows heat shields to go back on which is important.

Also, peope that have done exactly the same mods as mine in theoir AWD's but with other brands of extractor are not putting out as much power. Everything else is the same bar the extractors. Maybe this also says something!!

Howdy,
Remember mine engine is a full Ralliart not just cams. (Engine Kw's closer to 180kw)
I had mine dyno'd at Graham West before SKR tune and it was getting consistent 119Kw's
So it is about right that I would get an extra 7 kw's from Steve's tinkering.
Remember I still only run 95 RON....so still have room to play if I want to run 98 only.
As per normal, I would always like more but this car is a daily drive and I want it to be practical.

btw: HM Headers do bugger all, you are better off getting some better aftermarket pipes which help the motor to breath. Trust me I was involved in the approval of these headers and they did not give any increase into the dyno results on test.

cheers

Hey there Derry.
You said you were involved with the approval of these? I'm guessing you are refering to the Ralliart Magna's as these are the only magna's that run HM headers as stock.
Many people have said there is little gain with extractors on a FWD magna due to the very well flowing factory setup to start with.
The AWD on the other hand is a very different situation. It has a very restrictive flowing front setup due to the rear bank join to the front bank. This is very well known, which is why everyone with an AWD said the first mod should be different extractors over stock.

As to the effectivness of different brands, thats a different situation.

Nige.

btw: HM Headers do bugger all, you are better off getting some better aftermarket pipes which help the motor to breath. Trust me I was involved in the approval of these headers and they did not give any increase into the dyno results on test.

cheers

Not correct. On the AWD the HMs add 5-7kw all the way from 4500 to 7000rpm. Below 4000rpm its 3-4kw. When Ralliart rallied the production class AWD they used off-the-shelf aftermarket HM headers. They tried other headers and custom build as well and decided on the HM as best.

On the 3rd gen FWD any header is a waste of money with stock cams or Ralliart cams as the stock manifold and secondary pipes flow OK. Apart from the secondary pipe collector/join failing there isn't much wrong with them. Thats why when testing for the Ralliart Magna the HM only gained 2kw at the very top end. However it was a bit better than that lower down.

Cheers,
Alan

Why do people always just talk about power improvements. What about torque. From memory, reading articles on the development of the ralliart. The addition of the HM Headers improved the torque throughout the rev range, especially, down low.

Why do people always just talk about power improvements. What about torque. From memory, reading articles on the development of the ralliart. The addition of the HM Headers improved the torque throughout the rev range, especially, down low.

Torque and power are interrelated. If the torque improves through the rev range then so does the power.

What many incorrectly mean by more torque is an engine that has good grunt at lower rpm and pulls hard in higher gears. But there needs to be a balance. Diesels have loads of torque but diesels that are non-turbo don't want to rev out so they seem sluggish.

Then there are engines that have less torque but rev a zillion rpm so make a lot of power. That is OK on the race track but tiring on the road.

HP = torque x rpm/5252

Cheers,
Alan

Thank you Alan for your reply.

Nice to hear from someone who REALLY knows what they are talking about.

There is nothing better than personal experience and expertees rather than just opinions and theorys as i have found out myself.

Hey there Derry.
You said you were involved with the approval of these? I'm guessing you are refering to the Ralliart Magna's as these are the only magna's that run HM headers as stock.
Many people have said there is little gain with extractors on a FWD magna due to the very well flowing factory setup to start with.
The AWD on the other hand is a very different situation. It has a very restrictive flowing front setup due to the rear bank join to the front bank. This is very well known, which is why everyone with an AWD said the first mod should be different extractors over stock.

As to the effectivness of different brands, thats a different situation.

Nige.

Nige,
Yes you are correct I was involved in the Ralliart motor development and part approval.
Yes again, the HM Headers did bugger all for the Ralliart motor on Dyno, we did not test the AWD version because it was never an option. The increase on the Ralliart was only 1-2kw and at the end of the day management left them on because they looked better for the image they were trying to present.
Can't comment on the improvement for AWD (should have stated that in the earlier post....sorry)

cheers

HM Perry headers & Y pipe were the first performance upgrade that I did on my AWD and yes it's a definite and noticeable improvement. Low down torque improved corresponding to sharper off idle throttle response. Initially I thought maybe a 2kw difference but could be more due to crappy and restrictive stock AWD "Y" pipe.

So I can vouch for the HM perry upgrade being an essential first stage upgrade. I would put it ahead of even a sports rear muffler for the AWD's even going as far as to say that it would be the most essential upgrade to do if you had to choose just one.

I know some members would disagree with that statement and perhaps put rallart cams, SKR tune or a 6G75 conversion ahead, but IMO what's the point of going to the trouble of these other mods when the stock AWD exhaust flow is so restrictive due mainly to the stock y pipe??

My reasoning is simply to gain power by addressing the weak links first to free up power before doing other mods or upgrades.:io:

Hey Guys,
Just had Headers installed. They are have proven to be a big improvement in performance on my TL AWD. Straight bolt up is a huge benefit too.

Mods before headers were:
-Modified throttle body
-Sard adjustable fuel pressure regulator increased to 4 bar pressure copared to factory 3 bar. Any more pressure and there seemed no benefit
-200 cpi hi flow stainless steel cat converter

After HM Headers now the engine is far more responsive and I've been able to increase fuel pressure by another .5 bar to 4.5. that is an increase in fuel pressure of 40psi over standard. The engine is a standard 3.5V6 and now loves the extra fuel and can handle it giving more torque throughout the rev range all the way to 6000rpm. It used to change gears under hard throttle in drive at 5700rpm. Now goes to 6000rpm and it sounds freer. Not constricted like it used to.
Will be going for 380 6g75 motor, 3.0v6 stall converter and skr tune for 98 ron fuel in the future.
After

I thought I'd just put a message in here, cause I had noticed that the previous owner of my verada put ralliart cams on it for me (bonus) and umm yeah I was wondering why my veradas been so damn sexy to drive, there was a few surprises in it that the dealer didn't even know about thank god

So I'm all for ralliart cams!

how long does it take to swap over the cams ? What else is required to be replaced/upgraded when doing the swap i.e valve springs ?

how long does it take to swap over the cams ? What else is required to be replaced/upgraded when doing the swap i.e valve springs ?

Depends if you are doing it or getting a mechanic to do it. I got a mechanic to do it plus full servicing and transmission flush. Was almost a whole day job (dropped of at 9:30am and picked up at 4:30pm).

I only just swapped the cams. Nothing else was changed. I guess it depends on how old your engine is.