Hi guys,

my next mod is a rear sway bar, and I can't see a Sway Bar thread in the AWD section, so maybe this can become a repository for valid info - eg: opinions, experiences, sources of products and prices.

Below is my story, but first some specifics which I hope to update with latest details and keep this thread current.

Sources and prices (as at October 1, 2009 but they could vary at any time).
for an 18mm Adjustable Rear sway bar for 03/04 Magna AWD:
www.phillcomrally.com - forum link (http://www.aussiemagna.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28) Forum Link #2. NB: Prices are from 2006 so expect to pay more! (http://www.aussiemagna.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32747&highlight=AWD+Sway)
www.Selbys.com.au - actual manufacturer, approx $245 for 18mm or $270 for custom ordered 20mm adjustable rear bar.
www.onautos.com.au - $270 for 18mm adjustable rear sway bar, currently has a coupon for free shipping "EBAY".
www.Whiteline.com.au - ?
www.k-mac.com.au - Update: 20mm adjustable rear bar is $340 at Oct 2009. Adjustable on slide mounts, not 3 holes, see web for details.
And apparently Supercheap for $220 at some point in time http://www.aussiemagna.net/forums/showthread.php?t=65874&highlight=AWD+Sway


From reading as many AWD sway bar discussions as I can find, it seems that the rear sway bar is deemed the best single mod for our AWDs, probably because once understeer begins, the rear drive pushes the car forwards into more understeer (to paraphrase a Josh that put it that way :) ).

Recently I've had some private road practice in my car on wet tarmac. It can actually develop power oversteer with the factory sway bar, wheels and tyres.
I've only experienced one instance of major understeer and a few minor ones. All were corrected by lifting off the gas and waiting :)

But either way, I'm not happy with the body roll, so a bigger sway bar is more than likely going on.

I've compared onautos.com.au and Selby's direct.
Selby's was just a bit cheaper with pickup, but then I asked for a custom '20mm' adjustable rear sway bar and that would be $270.

I am not sure if an off the shelf 18mm sway bar will be enough of a difference over the factory 16mm sway bar, or if a custom 20mm adjustable bar from Selby's would be too much! Would I be going too far with 20mm considering it's a road car, not a track car? Since its adjustable, will I have enough flexibility to select a softer 'setting' ?

So, what's the behavioural differences between 16mm, 18mm adjustable or larger rear sway bars? I'd love to hear other's experiences on an AWD Magna/Verada.

Bit of imperial measurements, courtesy of a PDF from Selby's website:

Sway Bar Percentage
Diameter Stiffer than 16mm
18mm 60%
19mm 99%
20mm 144%
21mm 197%
22mm 257%

I have the 18 mm adjustable bar fitted.

Set on the hardest setting with the thicker front bar as well.

This is definitely the first modification that you should do, as long as you get a bar that has been manufactured correctly.


HOWEVER, I had a look under the car and have found several major problems because the aftermarket Whiteline bar has not been made correctly.
1) There is a big upward semicircle in the bar on the RHS, this is to clear the exhaust pipe. However it hits very hard on the front face of the spare wheel well. At rest, unladed, there is minimal clearance between the bar and the body owrk!!

2) The bar is too wide. This means that the link are not vertical.

3) The bar is not straight where it goes through the bushes. This measn that the bar "walks" sideways over time. Then the links are way off vertical. Probable risk of damage to the link ends becasue of this.

I am now going after Whitleine as this is "not fit for purpose".

Gerry

I have the 18 mm adjustable bar fitted.

Set on the hardest setting with the thicker front bar as well.

This is definitely the first modification that you should do, as long as you get a bar that has been manufactured correctly.


HOWEVER, I had a look under the car and have found several major problems because the aftermarket Whiteline bar has not been made correctly.
1) There is a big upward semicircle in the bar on the RHS, this is to clear the exhaust pipe. However it hits very hard on the front face of the spare wheel well. At rest, unladed, there is minimal clearance between the bar and the body owrk!!

2) The bar is too wide. This means that the link are not vertical.

3) The bar is not straight where it goes through the bushes. This measn that the bar "walks" sideways over time. Then the links are way off vertical. Probable risk of damage to the link ends becasue of this.

I am now going after Whitleine as this is "not fit for purpose".

Gerry

Hi Gerry, Whiteline don't make them anymore, Selby's have taken over.
There's a kit you can get to stop the the sideways movement.

Zero,
I am well aware of that.
However my bar was made by Whiteline, therefore it is their problem as in my opinion the bar "is not fit for use".
I have posted up a query on their discussion forum, also taken a snapshot in case it is "accidently" deleted to see what the reaction is.

Tuesday I will call them and let everyone know what the response is.

Also as an alert to anyone else to check a new bar against the OE one so they do not experience the same problems.

Thanks for the info, I certainly did not know about the kit.

Any info on where it can be obtained and what is is.??



Gerry

Gerry, Whiteline lol make one, Lateral movement lock kit...WO450(size)- 2X POLY RINGS and S.Steel hose clamps.

what about fitting progressive rate springs (if available) ? I have found with other vehicles i have they are a better solution than swaybars.

adjustable konis make alot of difference too

I went with k Mac, very satisfactory result and service

Totally agree on a thicker sway bar being the first MUST DO mod to an AWD.
Amazing how much it transfrorms the car.

I have the adjustable whiteline. I have had the experience of the bar 'walking from side to side' but no longer does it. Did for a few months but then stopped.
Never had an issue with the clearance with the lump to the body.

WhiteAWD, what did you get done? What parts? Did they install them too?

K-Mac gave me a price of $340 for a 20mm adjustable rear bar (and $195 for a pair of progressive rate springs) which I'm pretty sure is not fitted, but they didn't say.

I just rang ahead, I went for a non adjustable large diameter bar. Mine was templated off existing, I told Kevin I was posting about it on this forum, so he told me mine was being templated. Mid 300s including fitting. Being there with $ counts for somthing with K-MAc.

Hi Folks,
Do'nt flame me if this infio is already well known......but spent a looong time on the phone YESTERDAY from Brisbane to Sydney, trying to get my hands on a replacement Rear Swaybar for my TL AWD.

First call was to K-MAC.....Yes the guy says,....we can make you a bar...20mm fixed or 20mm 3 point adjustable......was not the easiest of people to deal with and when i said lets place an order he says i'll call u back....anyway, closing time and still no call..........SO...

Next.......i rang.......Whiteline......they do NOT make one for the AWD any longer....if they ever did.......so i kinda put the guy in the picture as to what i wanted, and he suggested i give these guys a call....

SIGNATURE SWAYBARS......Sydney....02 9453 9199.....Tony Gentilcore....

...so i did just that, after looking at their website ....www.mako.com.au .....they MAKE the bars for just about everything, including the AWD......they are FIXED...but go up from 18,20,22,24,..27!!.....and do the Front also,
....anyway, back to the story, i spoke to Tony and asked him where exactly, and who is making these bars as i thought they may be from O-seas or even K-mac....he tells me that the ORIGINAL owner of Selbys and his Son, who sold the original business over 10 years ago is the brains behind Signature Swaybars, and they do it all themselves.......this was close to closing time, but i've just banged in an order for a Fixed 20mm. you can have a choice of colours, come ready to bolt up with D Bushes in Poly etc. Freighted to Brisbane in around 5 days .....$233.88 Inclusive...($75 CHEAPER than K-mac!!)..(Freight was 25.88...bar only $208).....very good customer service, and should be one very happy customer in me. He said they do'nt prefer to deal with the big suspension companies as they like talking with the enthusiasts like us.....so i said i'd drop his info on here for anyone to use at their will.

SORRY for the epic story...

P.S.....Forgot to mention for anyone who does'nt already know.......Selby's as we know it and their most RECENT owners went BUST about a couple of months ago

Cheers,

Wayne.

Cool~~~ Thanks for the heads up Wayne! I was just about to get to the rear sway bar for my KJ2 AWD too! U saved me heaps of calling around and being given the run around. Too bad they don't do adjustable ones. But hey, at that price I'll go for fixed 20mm ones too!

Hey no worries.........i thought about an adjustable one, but the last one i got i never took it from the intermediate setting anyway, so i think 20mm is a good bet..........just one tip when u order online.......you have to go up one size as the catalogue lists the original size......so...if u want a 20mm....specify, Rear...type 4(A)....and put down 20mm also.

Wayne.

Hey no worries.........i thought about an adjustable one, but the last one i got i never took it from the intermediate setting anyway, so i think 20mm is a good bet..........just one tip when u order online.......you have to go up one size as the catalogue lists the original size......so...if u want a 20mm....specify, Rear...type 4(A)....and put down 20mm also.

Wayne.

Ok! Sounds good, how about 22mm/24mm rear sway bar then?

Interesting to note that those guys have the same front swaybar listing for the FWD & the AWD. Whiteline & Selbys had a different bar listed before they stopped making them.

Original bar is Type 4 (18mm)
20mm bar '' 4 (a)
22mm '' 5
24 '' 5(a)
....and so on........if you have a look at the online catalogue, it shows you the original listed for each vehicle, both front and rear...with the code for the original also, when ordering, it says to increase code up by increments as u want larger in size.

As for Whiteline and Selbys having a different part number for the FWD/AWD FRONT bar, i would only imagine that COULD be to attempt to have us believe that we needed a different bar?.......like i said in my original post, Signature Swaybars is the ORIGINAL Selby owner..(not to be confused with the people that just went broke a couple of months ago) ......and from what i can gather, they seem to do business the old fashioned way, ....keeping it simple, and keeping the costs down for everyone.

at the end of it though, that's only my guess, but i'm happy to get a good bar at that price, so will let you know how it looks when it's here, and once fitted,

Cheers,

Wayne.

I am not sure if an off the shelf 18mm sway bar will be enough of a difference over the factory 16mm sway bar, or if a custom 20mm adjustable bar from Selby's would be too much! Would I be going too far with 20mm considering it's a road car, not a track car? Since its adjustable, will I have enough flexibility to select a softer 'setting' ?

So, what's the behavioural differences between 16mm, 18mm adjustable or larger rear sway bars? I'd love to hear other's experiences on an AWD Magna/Verada.

I'd be interested in knowing the differences different swaybars make to the handling, as when I get around to buying one, I'd like to get the best size I could.
Is "the biggest you can get" the best for our cars or is there some point that is the 'sweet-spot'??

I suspect that the rear bar, if not adjustable, should be 20 mm in size.
I have the adjustable 18 mm bar on the hardest setting as it suits my driving style.

If you are always going round roundabouts or going through traffic calming!! slaloms or driving on nice windy country roads then this works great.

Gerry

I have a 19mm adjustable on hard setting, with standard springs it made a noticable difference, but it leaves me wanting more!

Original bar is Type 4 (18mm)
20mm bar '' 4 (a)
22mm '' 5
24 '' 5(a)
....and so on........if you have a look at the online catalogue, it shows you the original listed for each vehicle, both front and rear...with the code for the original also, when ordering, it says to increase code up by increments as u want larger in size.

As for Whiteline and Selbys having a different part number for the FWD/AWD FRONT bar, i would only imagine that COULD be to attempt to have us believe that we needed a different bar?.......like i said in my original post, Signature Swaybars is the ORIGINAL Selby owner..(not to be confused with the people that just went broke a couple of months ago) ......and from what i can gather, they seem to do business the old fashioned way, ....keeping it simple, and keeping the costs down for everyone.

at the end of it though, that's only my guess, but i'm happy to get a good bar at that price, so will let you know how it looks when it's here, and once fitted,

Cheers,

Wayne.

The bar IS different. The bar has to bend up over the tailshaft, which is non existent in the FWD.

Yes,.....you can go TOO big.....which will cause the car to be very 'Taily', and oversteer...................not what u want unless you're into Drifting.........or the odd Rally stage...lol....

As for the front bar being different, maybe email them....could just be an error on their part......either way i'm sure they can make one if needed....

Yes,.....you can go TOO big.....which will cause the car to be very 'Taily', and oversteer...................not what u want unless you're into Drifting.........or the odd Rally stage...lol....

As for the front bar being different, maybe email them....could just be an error on their part......either way i'm sure they can make one if needed....

With my 17's my car was pretty well balanced (mind you it had Maxxis up front and Nankangs on the rear)... after adding front strut brace, rear swaybar and 20's in one weekend, it has begun to understeer a bit around some corners. I have put it down to nankang rubber on these wheels and stock springs. Hopefully ill get in some king low springs and KYB's that i've got at a great price this weekend and it might make a difference

BTW, nothing wrong with drifting... I used to own a 3.9L EA 'Coon and that was great in the wet lol

Confirm,
The AWD front bar is different.
Yes it has to go over the tailshaft as previously described.

BTW it is NOT easy to fit as you will have to remove the exhaust, then the tailshaft and do a lot of wiggling to get it in.

Rear bar is a 20 minute job. Front bar will take about 3 hours at home!!

Do the rear bar first as this gives the biggest improvement, the stiffer front bar I reckon should be paired with stiffer front springs and shocks.

Gerry

Confirm,
The AWD front bar is different.
Yes it has to go over the tailshaft as previously described.

BTW it is NOT easy to fit as you will have to remove the exhaust, then the tailshaft and do a lot of wiggling to get it in.

Rear bar is a 20 minute job. Front bar will take about 3 hours at home!!

Do the rear bar first as this gives the biggest improvement, the stiffer front bar I reckon should be paired with stiffer front springs and shocks.

Gerry

I reckon the 24mm front sway bar is more than sufficient. Any stiffer and it will outweigh the benefits from the upgraded rear sway bar.

.........I'm not going to bother doing the front bar myself.......i think Camber bolts and Strut-brace will just about do me after the SP's go in.........ALthough.....( Dreams away to self whilst typing)......Bullit Supercharger hanging off a '75' would be a nice addition for the odd track day.......geez.....then i'd have to look at better brakes......(Dream crashes into pillow and comes to abrupt halt)..lol

I've just fitted the 18mm rear bar to my AWD and there is a noticeable difference. Its worth doing as the car is a lot more enjoyable to drive now. IMO for a street car I don't see any point in going any larger. Cheers

I have the 18 mm flexible bar fixed.
Set on the toughest establishing with the wider front side bar as well.
This is definitely the first adjustment that you should do, provided that you get a bar that has been produced correctly

Would someone please confirm that the stock KL AWD Rada has a rear sway bar fitted and what size it is?
Also, there is no stock front sway bar?

I want to reduce body roll a bit and I'm led to believe that a larger sway bar may be the best strategy.
I think larger rims (18's) and lower profile tyres would be too harsh whereas 17's wouldnt provide enough benefit.
Similarly stiffer springs would be too harsh.

Thank you

I should add that body roll is not a big issue on my KH. I think the AWD just brings too much weight for the stock suspension setup.

My limited knowledge is that all AWD Magnas run an 18mm rear bar.

Body roll could be a few things, I'd start at tyre pressure and work my way up before shelling out for a rear bar.

I've upgraded the rear bar on my AWD to a 22mm bar from Mako - not exactly an inexpensive upgrade. Worth it? I think so, but I'm they guy who shelled out the cash. Car is sharper and understeer is reduced, steps out more if you're ham-fisted in the wet.

I found that upgraded springs and dampers (Lovell & Boge/Sachs in my case) noticeably reduced roll and tightened handling without seriously degrading ride on 215/60R16 tyres. I ended up deciding that I wouldn't try upgrading the rear swaybar as I didn't think there was going to be enough benefit to offset the risk of getting caught by unanticipated oversteer in treacherous conditions, especially as the upgraded springs did reduce the tendency to understeer anyway.

Even though I've gone through 225/50R17 (98 load rated) to 225/45R18 (which is at my limit for ride quality), I sometimes think I should go back to 225/55R16 on 16x7 wheels for most of the driving I do with the suspension setup I have.

Thanks guys, I'm currently following the duscussion over here. (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104692)

I am hoping to find some comments concerning the fitting of an 18mm non adjustable MAKO rear sway bar for AWD.

Have those who have had theirs for a significant time had any issues like what happens to those with Whiteline adjustable rear sway bars, such as subframe cracking or poor fitting?

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84244&highlight=subframe

Is it common to need to replace the links(note- not the "d" bushes) that look like 2 x steering tie rod ends joined together, or are these relatively trouble free?

How would I tell when the links need replacing, as I am only familiar with earlier model cars that have older style rubber donut type sway bar bushes?

18mm? That's the standard diameter rear bar.

I have a 22mm rear bar - Mako - that's been on the car for over 20000km. In combination with Coilovers.

No problems with dead links, cracks or dead bushes. Haven't even had to replace the bushes. Everything down there is fine.

I do run swaybar locks - to keep the swaybar centred. Not sure that makes a big difference.

Not wanting to shoot myself in the foot here, but I'm beginning to think the "big rear bar = cracked control arm/dead links" is a myth. Sure, I reckon anything greater than 24mm and you'd be pushing it.... but, even then, the M8 fasteners back there would fail before the control arm bracket did (my theory).

I also ran a 22mm rear bar on a FWD Magna, again without issue.

On the AWD is start at 22mm as far as upgrading the bar goes. On the FWD a 22mm rear bar was great... in the dry/good road conditions, a bit taily otherwise.

18mm? That's the standard diameter rear bar.



Mako catalogue

part # SM71R

suit TJ-TL Magna AWD

states "18mm" in their list:

http://www.mako.com.au/ibm_docs/mako/product_images/2014SwayBarCatalogue.pdf

I would be assuming that is the measurement of the bar that they are selling, not the size of the bar that is being replaced.



I measured my standard rear bar the other day with my digital calipers, and it was 16mm.....not 18.

Really, 16mm? That's different to the rear bar that I pulled from my AWD - 18mm, as well as the rear bar I pulled from my GTVi.

Anyway, maybe I got it wrong.

The rates for the three swaybar sizes;
16mm dia. = 70 lbs/inch
18mm dia. = 110 lbs/inch
22mm dia. = 247 lbs/in

These rates are for the bar alone, the motion ratio of the suspension alters the effective rate of the rear bar.

16mm is the standard size I put an 18mm Mako bar on my TJ AWD Stopped the understeer Mako is made by the original selbys owner in Nowra I dont think i would go bigger than 20mm....Might get a little tail happy

16mm is the standard size I put an 18mm Mako bar on my TJ AWD Stopped the understeer Mako is made by the original selbys owner in Nowra I dont think i would go bigger than 20mm....Might get a little tail happy

Still miffed I got that bar diameter wrong.

But, running 22mm on my AWD and it's great. No oversteer, even in the wet. Understeer = zero.... measured it myself, so it could be more or less.

Do you still have either of these bars on hand?

Are they 18mm?

Or 16mm?

If either of them are 18mm, they may have been installed by whoever owned the car before you did?

If either are 18mm, I might buy it off you at a reasonable price if you are interested.

Of course, if they are standard 16mm, please disregard.

Running an adjustable whiteline rear sway bar on mine, and the welded tab on the rear control arm broke off, where it attaches to the link...replaced it with another control arm...been good for a few years now. Although I now run it on a softer setting. For what its worth.

Do you still have either of these bars on hand? Are they 18mm? Or 16mm? If either of them are 18mm, they may have been installed by whoever owned the car before you did? If either are 18mm, I might buy it off you at a reasonable price if you are interested. Of course, if they are standard 16mm, please disregard.

No, sorry, I turfed the old bars in a recent house move. But, I'm second guessing my measurements now anyway. Sorry chief.

Running an adjustable whiteline rear sway bar on mine, and the welded tab on the rear control arm broke off, where it attaches to the link...replaced it with another control arm...been good for a few years now. Although I now run it on a softer setting. For what its worth.

I'm wondering if there's other contributing factors to this issue. Maybe a suspension / rear bar combo that increases chances of failure.

The last Magna, and the current AWD, both ran 22mm bars. Never had an issue.

Any idea of how many k's in after installing the rear bar, that the control arm lug broke? What's your suspension setup? No Dukes of Hazard jumps on your daily commute?

OK, thanks anyway.

When looking at replacing the rear sway bar, has anyone found that their drop links were worn, or are they a long lasting part?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-REAR-Sway-Bar-Links-For-MITSUBISHI-MAGNA-97-04-/180854828355

Being a ball joint type link, I imagine they would wear out over time similar to control arm ball joints or outer tie rod ends.

When looking at replacing the rear sway bar, has anyone found that their drop links were worn, or are they a long lasting part? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-REAR-Sway-Bar-Links-For-MITSUBISHI-MAGNA-97-04-/180854828355 Being a ball joint type link, I imagine they would wear out over time similar to control arm ball joints or outer tie rod ends.

It's my understanding that the links are a wearing part. As for how long they are supposed to last, I'm not sure.

My usual check is to look for grease leaking from the ball joints at either end. Then, disconnect the link from the bar and feel for free play and to check the movement feels firm and clean.

Correct installation would be key though, and I think it's why I put the swaybar locks on mine. I found the bar "walked" left to right over the course of a few hundred kilometres. This is the Mako bar I'm talking about. And as a result, my links would lean over. I don't know if this leaned over angle increased wear, or chances of failure, but I put the locks on to be sure.

On the GTVi, and the whiteline bar, I don't remember having the same "walking" rear bar issue.

Just with the Mako bar, I found the shackles used to hold the bar to the rear subframe to be light and cheap looking. And, due to the size of the bar/D bushes/shackle I have to use socket head bolts to tie them down - couldn't reuse the original hex heads. I don't think you'll have that issue at 18mm, but it's something to look out for.

Let me confirm this, but I'm pretty sure the bushes supplied with the Makp bar are Ford Falcon bushes (XD - XF?) and "should" be easily found. Like I said, let me check this statement.

16mm is the standard size I put an 18mm Mako bar on my TJ AWD Stopped the understeer Mako is made by the original selbys owner in Nowra I dont think i would go bigger than 20mm....Might get a little tail happy

Thanks for steering me in the direction of Nowra.

I have lived near there for almost 3 years, but I never knew about this.

Doing homework for this led me to Selby Suspension at Nowra,

http://www.selbysuspensionnowra.com.au/

who is now just a retailer/wholesaler of suspension/brake parts, but I got a slightly better deal on my new 18mm bar than going direct to the manufacturer who is, as you know, also in Nowra.

The 2 places are separate businesses.

Thanks again.

I got a better purchase price than from MAKO, and I don't have to pay freight as I will pick it up when I go to Nowra for other shopping.

$250 all up.

I'm wondering if there's other contributing factors to this issue. Maybe a suspension / rear bar combo that increases chances of failure.
The last Magna, and the current AWD, both ran 22mm bars. Never had an issue.
Any idea of how many k's in after installing the rear bar, that the control arm lug broke? What's your suspension setup? No Dukes of Hazard jumps on your daily commute?

King Lows, 1 year after installation, spirited hill runs during the occasional AMC meets. ;)
Have done the same, but on the soft setting, and several years later no probs. Could have been a dud lug.

Whiteline rear bars where the ones that broke the lugs

Time sure does fly,...... looked at my original posting on the subject at just over 5 years ago and touch wood I've had zero problems with the upgraded replacement rear sway bar :happy:
....... can't say that of too many aftermarket products I've purchased in the past.

Cheers,

Wayne

Thanks for steering me in the direction of Nowra. I have lived near there for almost 3 years, but I never knew about this. Doing homework for this led me to Selby Suspension at Nowra, http://www.selbysuspensionnowra.com.au/ who is now just a retailer/wholesaler of suspension/brake parts, but I got a slightly better deal on my new 18mm bar than going direct to the manufacturer who is, as you know, also in Nowra. The 2 places are separate businesses. Thanks again. I got a better purchase price than from MAKO, and I don't have to pay freight as I will pick it up when I go to Nowra for other shopping. $250 all up.

What was the quality of the paint like?

My swaybar works great, can't fault it there, but when it arrived it looked a a daycare Center painted it then threw it down an elevator shaft. Packaging was good, so I can only assume it left the shop in that condition.

It's still about 2 weeks away.

I will post a piccy when it arrives.

Mine was painted badly also had to grind out the link end slighty