EDIT: Please, don't post spam/crap/pointless messages. I'd like to seriously brainstorm these ideas and I value the experience and help of AMC members. "You hoon" is not helpful, so please don't say it.

Hi guys,

Firstly, the legal stuff - I'm not condoning, promoting or participating in illegal (and hopefully not even stupid) behaviour, the target here is motorsport and knowing the limits of our cars.
I realise that this forum could be read by any person of any age, so please remember, the best place you can learn advanced driving skills is in the controlled environments provided in defensive or advanced driving and even racing courses.
Please do not do anything that even might be illegal.

Now the real question, as per the thread title, can the AWD magna do donuts? Yes it can. :)

I've been curious if the Magna would have enough power to do AWD burnouts/donuts suitable for burnout competitions like those occasionally held at Eastern Creek.
I think it would be funny if it could be done - I'm sure the crowd would be derisive of an obviously FWD vehicle entering a burnout comp (they normally are) but imagine the surprise if it lights up all 4 wheels and spins on a central axis!
I loved seeing World Rally drivers celebrate at the end of some races! :)

I have also been interested in track days and the Eastern Creek skid pan to find the capabilities or limits of my 2003 TJ AWD Magna Sports.

I recently had the opportunity to use a private and sealed surface skid pan to test out some of the possibilities.
This was wet bitumen on an almost smooth texture - smooth enough for a skateboard.
Unfortunately the area was a bit small and the Magna had too much grip to find the limits of handling - ie: if I exceeded the limits, it would be at a speed too dangerous and probably hit something - need a much bigger area for this, so testing on the skid pan at EC is still an option.

But then I tried to do some donuts. I already knew that in the wet the car could power oversteer, but from a straight line launch it cannot break traction, so I wasn't sure what to expect.
Well gee was I surprised when on my first attempt the car broke into a long sideways slide before spinning round twice on a dime in a small cloud of smoke. I don't know if it was just spinning rears or 3 or 4 wheels. Does anyone else know what the Magna AWD does? I'm assuming it was spinning 3 since the front diff is open.

So, yes it is possible.
Now I didn't try again because there was little point. Next I have to think if I'll pursue this type of motorsport / demonstration further, I'll have to carry out more testing with observers and video camera(s), but I know that I would love to enter an AWD vehicle in a burnout comp.

The last issue I have is grip - I think that in the dry, there will be too much traction. Does anyone know if there are any rules in burnout comps? I can't imagine that there would be :) so in that case, what's the narrowest + cheapest tyre that would fit my factory 16x6 rims? I know I'll be talking to my favourite tyre retailers about this if I continue with the idea.

Oh, and learning to control the Magna in that crazy spinning environment would be a challenge, so finding another legal and safe place to practice might be important, just one that's bigger.


So again, the idea of burnouts and donuts is not a sensible one and definitely not something for the streets, but I think that in controlled places like Powercruise and Burnout competitions, it's a valid form of entertainment.
So please keep any responses out of the 'hoon' mentality and more on the knowledge and valid entertainment aspects as I would like to hear, in that light, what your opinions are.

Cheers,
Oggy.

inb4 hoon and grow up.

id be looking for smaller rims too if they fit over the AWD brakes

14 or 15". ask a tyre place what's the narrowest tyre that can fit on one of those rims.

Well the evo out of fast and the furious 3 could do it, so i dont see why not. Perhaps you could hook the handbrake up to the front left wheel only?

F&F Evo as mentioned was converted to 2wd, but it's easy enough to make even a standard AWD Evo do burnouts, but a 1700kg sedan like an AWD Magna with the power it has - I don't think so.

Yesterday I had the Prado on the beach (yes this was a legal 4WD beach for anyone asking), and it did quite decent donuts (in low 4WD mode)..... but obviously the conditions were what allowed it to do that.........

AWD Magna....... probably not enough power unless you had oil or something down on some tarmac

I've removed some posts that were spam or of no real help.

Hi guys, try and keep any replies sensible, I'm serious about this and don't need comments that don't add value and the mods don't need to be sweeping up all the time. If you've got nothing good/helpful to say, then don't even type into that box!


I'd like to add that this car can't be modified too much.

It is a road car first, not a dedicated burnout demonstration track car.
It will eventually get some exhaust mods and probably a postal SKR re-tuned ECU, but that's about the limit for power changes.
For suspension it will have a thicker rear sway bar and new springs. Koni adjustable shocks most likely if the current shocks need replacing. I think I'll make sway bar + springs a requirement before I do any more testing - a flatter car should spin better and hopefully allow better control.

Note: There is no way in hell that I would intentionally pop a tyre. I don't need to risk panel damage that much.



More on the "how to do it/can I do it" thing:
I've got a set of 17x7" mags that currently have smaller diameter, but wider 215/50/17 rubber on. These would effectively lower the gearing of the car, but the diameter is only 2.7% or 17.5mm smaller so not a big difference.
Has anyone experimented with smaller diameter tyres and know if they are easier to brake traction? This applies to any car.
Maybe I need to get short and narrow tyres onto the stock or light weight rims to be able to reliably break traction in the AWD?
What's the 'smallest' car that has a 5-stud wheel that matches our bolt patterns?

I just thought about starting a donut with a scandinavian flick, so this is now on my list of things to test.
Hopefully I can find the right test track/skid pan to see if this is possible on a dry surface, and just how much space it needs to get started and even if the AWD Magna can do this in the dry.

Does anyone know what the burnout pad road surface is like and how big it is? I guess size would be dependant on the location.
I just thought that with all that burnt rubber being put down that maybe it will be sticky like the burnout tracks that high-end drag racers use for their launch and this might make it even harder to start and maintain wheel spin.

This is going to be months in the planning I think, but after a couple of days I'm still interested.

If anyone knows of any websites/forums where dedicated burnout machines are discussed, please let me know.
On a forum I used to hang out at was a guy with a Gemini in S.A. that did this - the prize money was actually pretty good too!

I'm assuming that Summernats still have a burnout comp, I'll lookup details of them on-line tonight, but are there any other burnout comps that are held closer to Sydney? Do they still do them at the WSID off-street meets?

Cheers!
Graham.

id be looking for smaller rims too if they fit over the AWD brakes
14 or 15". ask a tyre place what's the narrowest tyre that can fit on one of those rims.

MicJaiy, thanks for that - the AWD has the same larger brakes as the Ralliart, so I'm thinking that the 16" rims would be the smallest, but I'll have a look at the clearance between caliper and rim - maybe there could be enough space for 15"s to work.

Ffeeky + Life could be onto something.

I've seen Skyline GTRs at the drag strip do a rear wheel burnout and then a AWD launch - something electronic to make the centre diff distribute all drive to the rear wheels only.
But I think the magna has purely mechanical diffs, so that might be limited.

A handbrake on 1 front wheel could be interesting but also scarey while parking on the night :) More thinking on this will happen in my head.


Ooh, I just remembered and don't know why it hasn't been suggested. A transmission cooler will go on before further testing also!

Are there any other considerations for reliability?
What's the Magna's cooling system like? Does anyone with a 3.5L have overheating in summer?

Cheers!
Graham.

...but are there any other burnout comps that are held closer to Sydney?...Try calling a couple of the speedways - Parramatta & maybe a couple of the smaller country ones.
The Avalon speedway in Geelong (Vic) (http://www.avalonraceway.com/burnouts.asp) has a burnout skidpan in the middle. No good to you, but made me think some of the other speedways may too.

Done a few donuts on sand at Birubi beach entrance. Possible but I used every sodding inch of the carpark as she just slides all over the sand. Not quite a legit donut but it got a few very surprised looks from the local bogan force. Now for a lift kit.........

EZ Boy - your description reminds me of the best burnout competition entry that I ever saw - it was around 1995 at Oran Park - a tan/brown Datto 1600 with black bonnet - it was doing these huge circles at great speed. Very impressive control, especially when he passed 3 times within half a car width of the wall!


I've done a bit of searching and WSID apparently have a burnout comp each Wednesday night, but only a limit of 6 cars ???
Various car shows include burnout comps too and http://www.hiddenvalleydrags.com/ had a 2009 series burnout competition, but that's in Darwin, NT for any one out that way.
So I'll be checking out Sydney Powercruise for next Feb since it's just ~10km from home at Eastern Creek.

Currently my plan is to still follow up with my intended suspension mods (rear sway bar, new springs) and see what I can do with wheels & tyres in the mean time.

I'll probably also attend WSID one Wednesday. Not sure if I'll do the 1/4 mile as well or only be a spectator and investigate the burnout pad.

G.

i have seen cars in the uk have a water system installed in the wheel wells, and water is sprayed onto the tyres

MicJaiy, thanks for that - the AWD has the same larger brakes as the Ralliart, so I'm thinking that the 16" rims would be the smallest, but I'll have a look at the clearance between caliper and rim - maybe there could be enough space for 15"s to work.

hey, where bouts in NSW are you? i have a set of 16x6 inch stock TJII rims if you want to test fit them over the brakes... let me know =D, will be interested in this!!

Not to deter you, but being an AWD you will need allot of full lock on the steering under heavy load to get it to go around, this means you will be putting allot of strain on the front drive shafts and CV's and more importantly the front diff. The torque differential between the front drive shafts in these situations is huge, very possible to break the diff, witch can lead to gearbox damage.

Not too sure about smaller than 16" rims.

My AWD is a TJ II with the 16x6 factory rims, just 7 spoke design. So thanks for the offer Owen, but I've already got some :)

I can just squeeze my index finger between the caliper and rim surface, so there's maybe 1cm or a tiny bit more clearance. I would assume that the rim surface would be 1.25cm (half of 1") closer for a 15" rim so I think it would just touch. Only trying it will answer the question though.

If they did clear the caliper - I would think that heat disipation then might become a problem, but for a 1 minute burnout and associated driving, that shouldn't be an issue, just no extended periods of "spirited" driving.



Phonic - good point. I want a bit of fun, not a $3k rebuild :)
I've spat out a couple of drive shafts in previous cars and I'm prepared to pay for that - Previously I've learned that a pair of custom, heavy duty drive shafts was cheaper than 1 standard Daihatsu shaft!
And of course, CVs can go readily too, I've probably had to replace 8 CVs on various cars.

The biggest moment of stress will be getting it started. Once tyres are spinning, then steering input is less and all other resistances are less, except for the engine hopefully staying off the rev limiter. :)
That's assuming that I can get them spinning, which I'll have to find a nice big test track to discover if it's possible and if I can control the thing while doing it - If my skills are insufficient, I'd like to find that out with a chalk line or witches hats and not a concrete wall.

If anyone has contacts at a tyre place, let me know - I'll happily accept sponsors.

Would put a massive amount of stress on your car. Wouldn't do it any favours.
Why would you want to sacrifice a nice car.

Just go find a big grass paddock, get permission and let her rip preferably after some rain or morning dew.

Just go find a big grass paddock, get permission and let her rip preferably after some rain or morning dew.

That's what I did on my wet tarmac testing - it does go around with many wheels spinning, so I need to either say mission accomplished or take it up a notch.
I know what wet grass is like - too slippery. I had my 1.3L KE55 Corolla doing over 180kph in 5th and moving backwards! in front of a friends house. Actually, the AWD would be interesting on wet grass, damn I'm curious to find out what it does in that environment now. Grrr :)




Would put a massive amount of stress on your car. Wouldn't do it any favours.
Why would you want to sacrifice a nice car.

I agree that it will put some stress on the car - but once wheels start to spin, all that stress goes.
A 1 minute burnout would be the equivalent stress as 500-1,000kms of my driving. Seriously. So it's not that much of a big deal unless I put it into a wall. :( I'd only go out there if there's heaps of room or I know that I can control the car in that environment from prior testing.
Any mechanical breakages can be fixed, heck, I've broken CVs, Driveshafts, gearboxes, rims, hubs and 2 engines on the public road, but never anything on the track (yet). Deliveries for Pizza Hut was the worst stress on that poor car.

Cheers, G.

You'll go through a few centre diffs I'd imagine. My Mechanic warned me that the centre diff on the AWD magnas & EVOs is the component that is prone to failing with prolonged driveline abuse.

I've only ever broken traction on my AWD on grass and like yours, I can't break traction in a straight line. Even in the wet!!!

On a different and unrelated note, alot of cavemen in their Dinosaurs boast of their ability to break traction. These days I just laugh as I'd love to see them out on the twisty roads with me to see what their cars could "really" do when it matters.

Then again maybe it's just because I'm getting old :-)

You'll go through a few centre diffs I'd imagine. My Mechanic warned me that the centre diff on the AWD magnas & EVOs is the component that is prone to failing with prolonged driveline abuse.


your mechanic is incorrect

front diff's go, not centre diff's..

front diff's go in evo's frequently with abuse.. (hard launches with huge rpm is usually the main contributer).. doubt you'll ever blow one in an auto magna awd with stock power though

centre diff is in the gearbox... if the centre diff packs up its gearbox thats gota be stripped down...but evo's dont have issues with centre diff's going frequently.. infact they're quite good/issue free

i reckon with stock power, an awd magna could do donuts all day, everyday without blowing any diff's ....

your mechanic is incorrect

front diff's go, not centre diff's..

front diff's go in evo's frequently with abuse.. (hard launches with huge rpm is usually the main contributer).. doubt you'll ever blow one in an auto magna awd with stock power though

centre diff is in the gearbox...

My bad, I was refering to the external diff at the front (not the one in the transmission). My Mechanic is correct. It was I that was Incorrect. And yes, I've seen a couple of Evos blow them in rallies before and I was warned that that was was the part most prone to failing. Not that I have any intention of hard launching any time soon :-)

My bad, I was refering to the external diff at the front (not the one in the transmission). My Mechanic is correct. It was I that was Incorrect. And yes, I've seen a couple of Evos blow them in rallies before and I was warned that that was was the part most prone to failing. Not that I have any intention of hard launching any time soon :-)

cool cool :)

I know that the power quotiant is totally different, but the issue of AWD donuts is covered pretty well by Ken Block with his very heavily modified Subaru- and his AWD slid control is really something else- well worth a look- go to youtube, seach Ken Block- I think look for the Gymkarnar video- might give you some inpiration as to what is possible in the extreme with AWD

I know that the power quotiant is totally different, but the issue of AWD donuts is covered pretty well by Ken Block with his very heavily modified Subaru- and his AWD slid control is really something else- well worth a look- go to youtube, seach Ken Block- I think look for the Gymkarnar video- might give you some inpiration as to what is possible in the extreme with AWD

ken blocks STi =/= awd auto magna

True, Ken Blocks STI is not the same as an AWD Auto Magna.
But I just want to be able to drive my Magna a bit like he drives ;)

You have made me think a bit more though.

Similar to my wet surface experiment which showed that donuts are possible in a low grip situation, I did the same test in the dry. From a standstill, turn the steering to lock and plant the accelerator.
End result: just as it started to break traction, the huge body roll, soft suspension and big profile tyres made the other tyres grip up and the test was over. Basically, any excess power being sent to the wheels was absorbed by all of these flexible components.

So, having seen a few Ken Block videos, I know that his car sits Very flat while turning about - minimal suspension movement means less grip.
So a heavy rear sway bar will help with that, but to get the AWD magna sitting as flat, it will probably need the front to be very rigid and flat as well with another big sway bar.

I do plan to get lower front springs and adjustable rear sway bar done, so I'll do this and see how flat the car will sit.
I've also got some 17" rims with smaller diameter rubber, much lower profile than the stockies so might help on the rigidity side also.

I'm guessing that this won't be enough though.
I don't think I want to put a strong front ant-sway bar on, especially as they are painful to remove in the AWD and this needs to be an everyday car as well.
So I will plan to resort to narrower tyres. That combo of springs, sway bar + tyres might just be enough, but I've got to stop talking and start modding so that I can do that next test.

Cheers,
Oggy.
ó¿ó

Additionally, the AWD handles and recovers very predictably at high speed. Eg, when avoiding a car merging into my lane right on top of me at 120kph, evasive action saw my car moving at 30deg to the direction of the road - 2x turns on the wheel had the car fully corrected. It did take a lot longer for my heart rate to return to sub 100bpm thou.

And FYI a Raptor powered AWD owns a std WRX - it did yesterday ;)

Similar to my wet surface experiment which showed that donuts are possible in a low grip situation, I did the same test in the dry.

I've done them in snow - which doesn't really count. It broke traction easily, but I've found it very hard to break traction on dirt, from standstill. I don't think it every has. Mind you I like it like that. Good for Wombeyan caves road / Barry way runs.

+1 for total lack of wheel spin on dirt and mud. My inlaws live in the country up a dirt road and long dirt drive way that turns to car sticking mud at the first sign of rain. Have "floored it" with all 4 wheels in deep mud and no wheel spin it just goes :happy:. Can't wait to get it into the snow next year, have driven the old man's forester (same AWD set up) a fair number of times in the snow and it is a weird sensation feeling the torque move around.

Oh before I forget again, there was a you tube video a year or so ago of a AWD Verada on a oval doing silly stuff. Can't find it anymore.......

Oh before I forget again, there was a you tube video a year or so ago of a AWD Verada on a oval doing silly stuff. Can't find it anymore.......
I've got it at home.

Bit of thread mining but something happened today that made me go hmmmm... It has been raining very heavily out here (out near Cowra NSW) at the inlaws. Anyway they have a looooooonnnnnnnng dirt drive way that has a low point. slowed down for the dip, all 4 wheels in deep mud, hit the go pedal and....... wheel spin (yes in a AWD) first thought was oh no bogged in a metre of mud with little princess in the car, but a second and a half later felt a push up from behind as obviously the rear wheels found traction. So yes you can get all 4 wheels to spin for a very short time but being a mechanical AWD you have to "wait" for the transmissions to work. Hopefully the rain eases off tonight so we don't get "flooded in". But otherwise AWD rocks in mud / dirt roads so much more stable for those that drive on such roads.

I have had all four spinning on wet grass quite easily. I also took it down a dirt road today, but the potholes and 20's made for a bumpy ride :( no fun was had

I tested a dirt road in the dry once. from a stand still, hit 100% throttle in a straight line and it didn't do anything more than the equivalent of chirping the wheels and accelerating normally.
I now know that if you add lateral forces into the equation (cornering), there's isn't nearly enough grip compared to the amount of power available :)

Obviously I still haven't done anything since the previous tests I posted.

Done the foot deep in wet mud/clay thing as posted earlier. Car won't go further and all 4 wheels started to spin due to mud build up at the front. Was able to reverse out of my way. On loose gravel/dirt road, it is amazing how stable the car is. E.g. the dirt road section that leads to Waitpinga beach in SA, near the dam, doing the bends at 100km/hr with no signs of losing grip. Also managed to sping the car around in a dry dirt private car parkt by holding the steering wheel at just under full lock, left foot on brake, right foot slightly on acc to get to 1000rpm and then mash the acc while letting go of the brake.

I have had all four spinning on wet grass quite easily. I also took it down a dirt road today, but the potholes and 20's made for a bumpy ride :( no fun was had
Stock engine in a straight line? You need better tyres :P I've made many attempts to test the limitations of the grip straight line, and thus far I'm yet to find a surface the car can't handle with ease.

Tend to get a bit of shit from mates for having a car that can't do burnout's and so fourth, it's only those who act like adults who seem to appreciate the benefits of not being able to lose traction on any surface without really trying.

Stock engine in a straight line? You need better tyres :P I've made many attempts to test the limitations of the grip straight line, and thus far I'm yet to find a surface the car can't handle with ease.

Tend to get a bit of shit from mates for having a car that can't do burnout's and so fourth, it's only those who act like adults who seem to appreciate the benefits of not being able to lose traction on any surface without really trying.
from memory, his 20's are wrapped with Nankangs.. IMO that's 'nuff said

Tend to get a bit of shit from mates for having a car that can't do burnout's and so fourth, it's only those who act like adults who seem to appreciate the benefits of not being able to lose traction on any surface without really trying.

Well said mate.

theres a clip on a silver KJ AWD verada on hear doing donuts on a football feild, ill try and find it

i have had my tjII on a well maintained small dirt speed way track both in the dry and wet, and it was the most fun you could have in a car while driving :}
four wheel drifting the whole way round, holding the steering wheel almost in the same opposite lock position and just using the throttle to control it round the bends :happy:
i did get it to go round a few times but it didnt react like a subi awd the power seemed to be all sent to the rear so almost just felt like doing it in a commo or falcon :doh:

This is a good thing to reduce severe understeer that subi's can suffer from.

i have had my tjII on a well maintained small dirt speed way track both in the dry and wet, and it was the most fun you could have in a car while driving :}
four wheel drifting the whole way round, holding the steering wheel almost in the same opposite lock position and just using the throttle to control it round the bends :happy:
i did get it to go round a few times but it didnt react like a subi awd the power seemed to be all sent to the rear so almost just felt like doing it in a commo or falcon :doh:

Yep. That is how it behaves. Can easily make it do a spin on dirt/gravel. You'll find that it is partly due to the use of an open diff at the front.

Have always wanted to see what an AWD Verada would be like in the dirt but love my paint too much to try it out........

I work in beaurepairs and the narrowest tyre I've seen in stock was 195/60/16

I'd also advise some lowly generic brand such as Durun, Nankang or Triangle. The cheaper the better. But. Make sure that when you are on street with those you drive like a grandma. Price will mean that they grip bugger all which is what you really want on a skid pan but exactly what you DON'T want on a public road. Hope that helps :)

I can't break traction in a straight line. Even in the wet!!!


This comment alone, says it all, this is exactly why the AWD was created in the first place. MMAL made sure, when they built these things for the general public, that breaking transaction is the last thing that would ever occur. This is something all AWD'ers should be proud of.

Now if only we had some snow, then it would get fun.

This comment alone, says it all, this is exactly why the AWD was created in the first place. MMAL made sure, when they built these things for the general public, that breaking transaction is the last thing that would ever occur. This is something all AWD'ers should be proud of.

Now if only we had some snow, then it would get fun.

Lucky the new rear wheel drive cars at work have traction control as when I drive them like the Verada the traction control works overtime. Too much wheel spin and not enough forward action especially in the wet when you are not used to driving a non-awd car anymore