question for them smart car tech ppl out there...

i was told to day but an exhaust shop that they would not make a Cold air Induction pipe to plumb my filter down to front bar.(were advised by the EPA)

the reason being is that the EPA told them it would Change the cars emmisions..

i am confused on how changing my intake would effect my emmisions if i am not changing my exhaust or removing emmision controlling devices..

can someone explaine to me why it would or was the guy just lazy and didnt want to do the job

That is correct, it may alter emissions. Different temp air/density may alter emissions.

Btw - CAI on Magna's has been proven to be useless.

The EPA/DECC etc are a stupid thing...

DECC (NSW EPA) State that the exhaust and induction systems on a car must not be tampered with. Apparently the police, DECC officers and Council officers can issue fines. Even if 3 complaints accumulate against your car you are issued a fine. However, the RTA state its legal to modify intake systems as long as its a) legal/engineered and b) if it features a pod the pod is inclosed. So who knows, yes you can get screwed by DECC/EPA but in NSW the RTA say its legal :S

I have a mate who's just gone through the DECC as someone complained about his car (R34 GTS-T modified).

6 Months on, the car is finally passed and legal by the looks of it. DECC came back and said since his intake/exhaust is not standard the car cannot pass. Funnily enough, the EPA having tested the car have found it exceeds emissions standards of brand new cars.

After a meeting of a workshop owner, and the head of the DECC, the car is passed.

About 10K later aswell.

i dont want to know what is legal or what is not legal.

want to know how it changes my emmisions, as far as i can tell the maf reads the ammount of air that passes so no matter what intake u have the maf and a correct tune shouldnt burn any richer or leaner there for exhaust gasses not really being altered much if at all.

understand if i remove things such as a cat or mufflers then sure the emmisions would change

when i installed the rpw style cai and still had the single lukey exhaust setup the exhaust gas analyser read the correct a/f ratio, nox and co throughout the rev range.

i dont want to know what is legal or what is not legal.

want to know how it changes my emmisions, as far as i can tell the maf reads the ammount of air that passes so no matter what intake u have the maf and a correct tune shouldnt burn any richer or leaner there for exhaust gasses not really being altered much if at all.

understand if i remove things such as a cat or mufflers then sure the emmisions would change

Argue that with the DECC and EPA.

My mates arguement has so far lasted 6 months, cost him somewhere around 10K, and up until recently they have not allowed the car on the road, even though it exceeds all new car emissions.

They are still forcing him to change back to his MAF as his current MAP is not 'factory'.

They also claimed his engine was a high performance engine, therefore was not able to be registered - even though its the engine that came with the car (RB25).

The exhaust place is covering their **** - things are about to get real nasty with car modifying.

i understand there is a legal thing and i understand the leagal side of things.. but that wasnt the question i was asking thats why i stated i couldnt care bout the legal side of things.

i asked the technical reason on how changing my air intact would effect my emmisions.

nemesis has just stated that putting an RPW style CAI did not effect his emmisions so this is showing me that intake isnt effecting exhaust...

Ok, a pod can confuse a MAF due to how it swirls the air.

Members on here have complained about this before.

That effects emissions.

Simple enough?

Ok, a pod can confuse a MAF due to how it swirls the air.

Members on here have complained about this before.

That effects emissions.

Simple enough?
That's why you use oval pods on 3rd Gens no?

For the OP i rekon the shop you checked with prolly don't wanna do it coz of previous bad experiences. Go to another shop to get it done.

What about the intake snorkel resonator bypass option (replacing the resonator with a pipe to front bar)? Technically it isn't a CAI, the air intake is still the snorkel, the bypass just supplies additional air.

I can see that a tube alone may at times actually cause restrictions due to the length and diamater of the pipe etc. In terms of the bypass pipe pipe, the effect can only be additional :)

Mohit - one of the two.

The point is simple from the DECC, if the intake is not stock - its not technically legal (aparantly even after you pass emissions of brand new cars, in a 10year old car).

Regardless wether the modification actually changes the emissions output, the arguement is simple - unless the car came out with that modification, without testing it is considered illegal. Which to an extent I can understand, car was not complied with a CAI - so whats to say it doesnt alter emissions.

Car doesn't come with a K&N, which (supposedly) reduces air restriction thus emissions are changed!

Car is primarily tuned for 92 fuel, running 98/100 ... emissions changed

Car specified 10w-30 oil, using and advanced 5w-40 oil may change fuel economy hence emissions

** Car does not come with anything but the stock or VRX muffler, or extractors. Using a high flow exhaust/or just sports muffler = reduced restricton and therefore changed emissions.

Actually the argument they have makes basically every arftermarket performance option illegal. I'm sure that would hold up well in courts, imagine how many jobs would be lost from that!

so because the air filter allows air to pass though easyer the maf read the amount of air flowing passed telling the computer to pump x amount of fuel per x amount of air which is wrong will cause the car to run lean or rich but if doing its job right will run at right rate?

so if ur car is running at the right rate them emmisions shouldnt be changed?
and isnt that why i have a cat?

Emissions are a combination of all gear and tune of the car.

Fact is half the cars that come straight out of factory dont pass emissions (oops).

Burfadel - to a degree just about everything is illegal (read the back of most products 'for off road and race use only')

Once you modify a factory system, the onus is on you to prove its legal.

Ers you are little off topic but in what you are saying it means that if i buy a product say mmm maxxxi tyres or toyos and my car didnt come from the factory with them then my car is illegal....

your post of making it simple pod=swirling air=bad reading=emmision change doesnt work. many people add a pod to their car with out this so called "swirling air" and have got not different readings from the maf.

he did not state to me that he wasnt allowed to make a CAI for a magna just was advised they werent allowed to make them.. so your post is worthless sorry if this seems harsh but i am not looking for a i think its cause the maf gets a different reading so must create difference. or my brothers mates girlfriends hair dressers wifes father once had one and his granddaddy got busted for smashing his cat out with a pipe. as this is not the question or information i am seeking.

Ers you are little off topic but in what you are saying it means that if i buy a product say mmm maxxxi tyres or toyos and my car didnt come from the factory with them then my car is illegal....

your post of making it simple pod=swirling air=bad reading=emmision change doesnt work. many people add a pod to their car with out this so called "swirling air" and have got not different readings from the maf.

he did not state to me that he wasnt allowed to make a CAI for a magna just was advised they werent allowed to make them.. so your post is worthless sorry if this seems harsh but i am not looking for a i think its cause the maf gets a different reading so must create difference. or my brothers mates girlfriends hair dressers wifes father once had one and his granddaddy got busted for smashing his cat out with a pipe. as this is not the question or information i am seeking.

Mate,

Pull your head out.

Mohit backed my post up, certain pods affect the MAF readings. Want to argue that aswell?

Your comparison to tyres is about as childish as they come. Every car was complied with the factory intake and exhaust, the EPA and DECC have no way of knowing that your CAI (as pointless as it is) does not affect your emissions, so basically its illegal until proven otherwise (at your expense).

I've read through some 20 pages of DECC reports as to why a car that passes emissions is still illegal due to intake/exhaust modifications - so how about pulling your head out, I didnt make the rules.

Furthermore - if you think you are so much smarter than the DECC and EPA combined. Slap on your CAI, turn up to the DECC and argue with them. You wont get very far.

Mate,

Pull your head out.

Mohit backed my post up, certain pods affect the MAF readings. Want to argue that aswell?

Your comparison to tyres is about as childish as they come. Every car was complied with the factory intake and exhaust, the EPA and DECC have no way of knowing that your CAI (as pointless as it is) does not affect your emissions, so basically its illegal until proven otherwise (at your expense).

I've read through some 20 pages of DECC reports as to why a car that passes emissions is still illegal due to intake/exhaust modifications - so how about pulling your head out, I didnt make the rules.

Furthermore - if you think you are so much smarter than the DECC and EPA combined. Slap on your CAI, turn up to the DECC and argue with them. You wont get very far.

dude, freaking relax...

he's said 4 times that he doesnt car if it's legal or illegal. Thats his choice isnt it? relax with the DECC and EPA stuff. christ you'd think you're working for them.

OP, adding a CAI (like ERS said) decreases the temp of the air and increases the density because its coming from a higher flow area. think of it like turbo-ing. the airs cooler (put through IC) and its more dense so it *supposedly* adds kW. but having the cooler denser air, regardless of how much fuel is being put in, changes the fuel burn inside the cylinder and as such changes the factory emissions readings. It does make sense but is just a stupid rule.

as said by burfadel, technically, running 98 in a car tuned for 92 (what i do always) does the same thing. mate, go somewhere else and have your CAI done. if you have a pod make sure it's shielded and the setup doesnt look dodgy. you'll probably never get stopped anyway, lets face it you drive a magna:P

EDIT: I am in no way saying a CAI acts like a turbo nor am i saying it gives power gains. just using an example, last time i checked that wasnt against the rules...

I am relaxed.

Just sick of the tired old crap on these forums.

I gave two examples of how an CAI can affect emissions. Then the reply comes as "your post of making it simple pod=swirling air=bad reading=emmision change doesnt work. many people add a pod to their car with out this so called "swirling air" and have got not different readings from the maf. "

If had pulled his head out, perhaps he'd know that a POD can affect MAF readings. Not saying it will all the time, but it can. Thats all that matters. Fact is any intake and exhaust modification has the possibility of effecting emissions output, be it better or worse.


the reason being is that the EPA told them it would Change the cars emmisions..

i am confused on how changing my intake would effect my emmisions if i am not changing my exhaust or removing emmision controlling devices..

Any modification to the induction or exhaust has the possibility of effecting emissions.

Wether it does or not, is another matter.

CAI and Pods can change how the air flows to the MAF, including round pods incorrectly distributing the air around the MAF giving false readings. This effects your emissions.

Anything done on EITHER side of the combustion process can alter your emissions.

I am relaxed.

Just sick of the tired old crap on these forums.

I gave two examples of how an CAI can affect emissions. Then the reply comes as "your post of making it simple pod=swirling air=bad reading=emmision change doesnt work. many people add a pod to their car with out this so called "swirling air" and have got not different readings from the maf. "

If had pulled his head out, perhaps he'd know that a POD can affect MAF readings. Not saying it will all the time, but it can. Thats all that matters. Fact is any intake and exhaust modification has the possibility of effecting emissions output, be it better or worse.

indeed. Now, if you desperately want a pod, i've been told there's a way to minimise the swirling effect into the pipe which also reduces turbulence. Make a sort of smoothed over inlet, much like a trumpet. i'm told this helps reduce it.

btw in my post after 'youd think you worked for the' there was supposed to be a ':P' but i missed putting it in. hahaha

i wasnt saying you were wrong or that things were going to be legal or not or that i was going to do it.. what i wanted to know was how and what technically happened with the emmisions and how they were increased.

i did not ask was it legal to put a pod on and am i going to get in to trouble with it.

i was hoping someone could and would explaine what was going to change and how it was going to change rather than the way u explained it with ur pod=swirling air= different emmisions.

it sounds like you/your mate has had a bit of a bad run with your/his car and you have learnt a lot and its good to share that i am not putting what you know down it just isnt what i want to know.

exhuast shops i know will do the work but wont install it, I have a "hi - flow" cat sitting in the garage with a pipe in it. IF you put it on and get busted, your in fault not the exhaust shop. If you want an exhaust place to do it pm me mate i will give you the details

Some workshops wont do work of this nature, because of adr / epa rules will screw them over and the fine they impose will ruin the workshop.

If you get busted / epa notice, return car to stock, get it checked. Get notice passed, then bolt back on. It is easier than trying to fight it.

God i love NZ law!!!!!!!!!!!! strait through canon, gutted cat, totally legal. sorry but damn you guys have it tough!!!

If you get busted / epa notice, return car to stock, get it checked. Get notice passed, then bolt back on. It is easier than trying to fight it.

Thats kinda the reason, people abusing the laws.

Makes me want to get into the EPA, I'd force the person to weld the exhaust on. Any change and slap on a fine.

Sorry, but as much of a hassle dealing with the DECC is, fact is the cars should be legal - as should all modifications.

Mate, 95 percent of modified cars would fail due to exhuast noise, pollution set ups, mods etc. It is part of the scene. If you are worried about getting done dont do the mods. If you want to make your car going faster, some ppl are going to break the laws.

Thats kinda the reason, people abusing the laws.

Makes me want to get into the EPA, I'd force the person to weld the exhaust on. Any change and slap on a fine.

Sorry, but as much of a hassle dealing with the DECC is, fact is the cars should be legal - as should all modifications.

But the fact DECC laws contradict RTA laws is stupid. You dont know who to believe. Eg I could spend thousands getting my car engineered for RTA standards only to be screwed over by DECC standards. There needs to be uniform standards - not conflicting ones hence making "staying legal" difficult because we dont know who to believe. Dont get me started on DECC - a lot of the things they implement they seem to be clueless about.

Easiest way to stay legal is to buy a segway

I wish i had a segway.........

Btw - CAI on Magna's has been proven to be useless.

Can we see results of these tests?

From threads I've read on I've read throughout AMC's history (and my own experience) the standard snorkel provides a slight restriction in the intake. I guess the Cold Air part isn't really important, but there are defiantly improvements to be had by replacing the stock snorkel.

Madmagna has a post around somewhere of some dyno work with stock filters and stock snorkels. Cant find it though

Haven't seen them, but there are a few threads with dyno results that provide results to the contrary. :P

But the fact DECC laws contradict RTA laws is stupid. You dont know who to believe. Eg I could spend thousands getting my car engineered for RTA standards only to be screwed over by DECC standards. There needs to be uniform standards - not conflicting ones hence making "staying legal" difficult because we dont know who to believe. Dont get me started on DECC - a lot of the things they implement they seem to be clueless about.

Easiest way to stay legal is to buy a segway

See thats where things went bad for my mate.

His car was RTA and EPA compliant. Exceeded all emissions standards, noise, etc. Only thing was a semi-enclosed pod filter (which was fair enough, will get a proper box now).

The issue was someone complained to the DECC, which have a backward retarded view of things. I'd love to see the DECC match the EPA/RTA regs.

Fact is majority of people that get pulled over wont be sent to the DECC, it will be an EPA/RTA issue. Its only when you hit the DECC thats when you're in trouble.


Mate, 95 percent of modified cars would fail due to exhuast noise, pollution set ups, mods etc. It is part of the scene. If you are worried about getting done dont do the mods. If you want to make your car going faster, some ppl are going to break the laws.


So that makes it ok?

Mate these are the retarded views that make things very hard for the people that actually modify within the law. People like you are the reason my mates car has been off the road for 6 months dealing with red tape, why? because 'oh its just part of the scene'.

God you dont get it at all, people whinge about getting defected/harrassed etc and cry that the police are targetting them. Yes they are, why? because you keep breaking the law with no regard for anything or anyone.

I hope someone reports you to the DECC:angry:

See thats where things went bad for my mate.

His car was RTA and EPA compliant. Exceeded all emissions standards, noise, etc. Only thing was a semi-enclosed pod filter (which was fair enough, will get a proper box now).

The issue was someone complained to the DECC, which have a backward retarded view of things. I'd love to see the DECC match the EPA/RTA regs.

Fact is majority of people that get pulled over wont be sent to the DECC, it will be an EPA/RTA issue. Its only when you hit the DECC thats when you're in trouble.




So that makes it ok?

Mate these are the retarded views that make things very hard for the people that actually modify within the law. People like you are the reason my mates car has been off the road for 6 months dealing with red tape, why? because 'oh its just part of the scene'.

God you dont get it at all, people whinge about getting defected/harrassed etc and cry that the police are targetting them. Yes they are, why? because you keep breaking the law with no regard for anything or anyone.

I hope someone reports you to the DECC:angry:

I have to deal with them on a regular basis in my line of work and all I can say is look at their Biobanking policy. Its as clear as mud

it is crazy that you guys have to spend so much money and time to do simple modifications, and i agree it is bizarre that DECC and RTA dont have the same standards. In NZ we have to get an engineers cert for structual or major mods but things like exhaust or intake changes, or suspension mods/ adding coil overs etc are fine. as long as it passes your WOF check, your good.

I wish i had a segway.........

segways are illegal in Australia. you can't use them on the footpath (more than the allowed power), and they can't be registered for the road.

the DECC... wow, just wow. surely they should defer to the RTA/EPA on actual testing etc... I can see them being a stakeholder in the regulation process (i.e. make recommendations towards emissions limits and testing), but to be a separate party which duplicates testing, that's retarded.

our tax $$ at work... :nuts:

segways are illegal in Australia. you can't use them on the footpath (more than the allowed power), and they can't be registered for the road.

the DECC... wow, just wow. surely they should defer to the RTA/EPA on actual testing etc... I can see them being a stakeholder in the regulation process (i.e. make recommendations towards emissions limits and testing), but to be a separate party which duplicates testing, that's retarded.

our tax $$ at work... :nuts:

In this case it basically went like this:

Complaint was lodged by a neighbour about the car, directly to the DECC, higher up than the regular complaints section.

DECC sent the car toe EPA/RTA inspections, it failed on several things (one was noise.....by about 1dB).

Was tuned for emissions - passed
Anything that was 'defected' was rectified (except the custom plenum, throttle body, turbo, injectors)
Emissions - passed again.

DECC sends car for more inspections.

Fails the car due to:
- engine check light being on (non standard ECU, so factory ecu trips the checklight)
- MAF instead of MAP sensor
- non standard ECU
- partially open airbox

Basically, the car is engineered within the law. EPA/RTA passed it, but since it was technically a DECC matter, the RTA/EPA could not interfere with the DECC decisions. Luckily the head of the DECC has seen some sense, considering this car is more road legal than a brand new car :tired:

aside from the check engine light (remove the bulb) wouldn't an engineer be able to sign off on all those things? then it just needs to meet RTA emissions (which the engineer needs to sign off).

I hate these "dob in a criminal" type services... it's so subjective and falls down when some neighbour with too much time and an axe to grind decides to report you because they think you might be breaking a law.

Engine check light should come on during IGN for 5seconds?, then turn off (providing there's nothing wrong).

Thats nothing more than a timed relay. Easy fix.

The airbox - will be a proper airbox.

MAF/MAP sensor......thats the hard one, DECC says 'the car isnt stock so its illegal'. EPA says 'car exceeds emissions of brand new cars'. DECC replies 'car has to have the stock sensor'. Not sure what the outcome of that arguement will be.

The DECC said 'we dont care about the engineers certificate' basically, it means SFA to these guys.

Basically my mate annoyed a neighbour which happens to know someone at the DECC. Its the first I've heard of a case like this......my mates come close to selling the car numerous times - 6 months off the road, thousands poured to make it comply to DECC regs......

Ers; we don't have the DECC down here in Vic. Just letting you know.

Ers; we don't have the DECC down here in Vic. Just letting you know.

Thats fortunate.

Except your EPA/VIC roads regs are basically in line with how the DECC view modifications (especially intake/exhaust)

I've been looking at the DECC site and I noticed the following...


Smoke from wood heaters is a major cause of air pollution. In fact, during winter, wood heaters can produce up to seven times as much particle pollution as cars.

amazing... you means cars aren't the worst polluters...?

I've been looking at the DECC site and I noticed the following...



amazing... you means cars aren't the worst polluters...?

i think youll find power stations take this trophy..... by a huge margin

Guys, this is a tech section, back on topic please, do not care about DECC or other cars in here

If you are answering the question asked, post away, if not open a members lounge discussion if needed

So that makes it ok?

Mate these are the retarded views that make things very hard for the people that actually modify within the law. People like you are the reason my mates car has been off the road for 6 months dealing with red tape, why? because 'oh its just part of the scene'.

God you dont get it at all, people whinge about getting defected/harrassed etc and cry that the police are targetting them. Yes they are, why? because you keep breaking the law with no regard for anything or anyone.

I hope someone reports you to the DECC:angry:

Dont worry about me mate, your mate spending 10k to fight the epa /decc or whatever is stupid. Spending 10 k fighting epa over a 15k skyine what is the point of that?? Bet your mate gets pulled over when he gets it on the road because 95% of modded skylines wont pass epa regs anyway.

Dont worry i have had my share of epa notices, canaries but do i care, no. It is simple way around it return to stock and it wouldnt cost me 10k. if your mate boosts his skyline, are you going to dob him onto the epa too? Because that will effect the emissions. What if he drops an exhaust on it? that too will change the db reading of the car. What if he lowers the vehicle? that would affect the way the vehicle handles. There is that much you can get done for you just have to cop it sweet.