Hey guys,

Trying to work out different ride height options, I've seen a couple of TL/KL AWD's with King Lows, can someone with a TL or KL AWD on King SP's possibly post a photo or two of the ride height? Trying to work out a nice balance between looks and performance atm.

If we could keep this to just the photos of cars with various suspension setups rather than a million posts on peoples individual opinions on what one should have, that'd be great, cheers.

I'm going to presume then that no one has or knows of a tl awd on sp's lol

Hey mate. Does it have to be an AWD? Type40 has a FWD on SP's. Wont look much different.

Just my opinion mate, but i think you would be dissapointed with SP's. Front wont look too different.

I've got lows with Monroe Gt's and it rides great, handles well and is still soft.

I'm going to presume then that no one has or knows of a tl awd on sp's lol

SP's are suppose to be the same height as VRX/Sports (maybe a couple mm difference, but not enough to "lower" it). Lows are your best bet (with the extra height, should be around the same as the superlows on the rada).

Hey mate. Does it have to be an AWD? Type40 has a FWD on SP's. Wont look much different.

Just my opinion mate, but i think you would be dissapointed with SP's. Front wont look too different.

I've got lows with Monroe Gt's and it rides great, handles well and is still soft.
The awd's all sit lower than the FWD equiv's, my vr-x sits roughly where Dave's TL sits now on the SP's. I'm expecting it to sit somewhere between SP's and Low's on a TL FWD. Just hoping to see a photo of how they sit before I ordered anything, just incase the drop's are different to the norm you see in the FWD models.

Life, SP's are lower than the VR/VR-X springs, quite noticeably so. Don't know where you picked up that knowledge but it's rather wrong.

Life, SP's are lower than the VR/VR-X springs, quite noticeably so. Don't know where you picked up that knowledge but it's rather wrong.

When I had them in my car, people used to seem shocked when they found out that it was not the factory setup, as there is bugger all difference really.

I've got a TL Awd with Kings lows all round. I reckon it looks good. doesn't have the big gap around the front tyre anymore. Have to be a bit careful with driveways etc though. I just went and took a pic, not the best shot of the tyre/guard gap though. pic here. http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq28/bollie7/magna.jpg

bollie7

When I had them in my car, people used to seem shocked when they found out that it was not the factory setup, as there is bugger all difference really.
Type40's looked noticeably lower than standard on the VR suspension, it's just a subtle drop, it doesn't really stand out as aftermarket because its not dumped to the ground I guess.


I've got a TL Awd with Kings lows all round. I reckon it looks good. doesn't have the big gap around the front tyre anymore. Have to be a bit careful with driveways etc though. I just went and took a pic, not the best shot of the tyre/guard gap though. pic here. http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq28/bollie7/magna.jpg

bollie7
Thanks for the photo, that doesn't look too shabby at all, although that photo on the angle you've taken it looks the same as mine is now when I look at mine side on..odd

Hey lugo.

Type40's car is decieving because of his rims. His Fwd on sp's looks similar to my AWD on lows because of his rims.

You wont be happy with sp's mate. I have sp's on a KE and it looks stock. Yes i know about the AWD extra weight argument but that is mostly noticably in the rear, not the front.

rhys, the king springs lows drop 30mm according to king springs, if the SP's are less than that its going to be so stupidly little you couldnt notice, pickup a ruler and have a look how little 15-20mm is, now put that up to your car and see how little drop it is


but i guess you know already because your telling everyone who HAS the springs in that they are wrong

SP's are suppose to be the same height as VRX/Sports (maybe a couple mm difference, but not enough to "lower" it). Lows are your best bet (with the extra height, should be around the same as the superlows on the rada).

Untrue, 10-15mm drop is on the VRX/Sports springs, whereas the King Low SPs are 30mm. Lows drop ~45mm, regardless of what the catalogue says. Call Kings & ask. I did (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60264) this research when I was getting my springs.


I've got a TL Awd with Kings lows all round. I reckon it looks good. doesn't have the big gap around the front tyre anymore. Have to be a bit careful with driveways etc though. I just went and took a pic, not the best shot of the tyre/guard gap though. pic here. http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq28/bollie7/magna.jpg

The one thing to note here, Lugo, is the standard tyre/ wheel combo. When you upgrade to 18" rims your overall diameter will drop around 20mm smaller - leaving a 10mm larger gap in the guards.

Shoot me a PM, Lugo, with your email address & I'll email you some pics of my AWD on Low Sp's

i had sp's once in my TJ sports... i couldnt tell the car had been lowered. looked exactly the same as stock to me

got them changed to lows the following day and i was happy...

The one thing to note here, Lugo, is the standard tyre/ wheel combo. When you upgrade to 18" rims your overall diameter will drop around 20mm smaller - leaving a 10mm larger gap in the guards.

The overall diameter should look exactly the same for legal and speedo calibration reasons.
EDIT: My bad - ignore the "look exactly" above and replace it with "be within + or - 15mm of a tyre option on the tyre placard of your car".

The overall diameter should look exactly the same for legal and speedo calibration reasons.

Except it won't. Most people here run 235/40/18 on an 18" rim, (or 235/45/17 on a 17" rim), which will be ~20mm less than the stock wheel. (664mm vs 645mm, approx)

Nor will it be illegal to have these sizes.

AWD with Lows on 235/40/18:

http://liveimages.carsales.com.au/private/carsales/6432021.jpg

Except it won't. Most people here run 235/40/18 on an 18" rim, (or 235/45/17 on a 17" rim), which will be ~20mm less than the stock wheel. (664mm vs 645mm, approx)

Nor will it be illegal to have these sizes.

OOps - I stuffed up big time in one way - the diameter does not have to be EXACTLY the same - that's just stupid.
RTA allows 15mm diameter difference in NSW and I _think_ other states are the same.

So if those tyres are more than 15mm different to the largest and smallest diameter tyre on the placard of your vehicle, and you're checked over by a cop it's probably a canary for you.
And if it's the insurance company after an at fault incident, I'd hate to think what would happen.

Just be safe and choose the right tyres for your car or get it engineered to confirm that it's safe on the road.

Here's an excert from the VSI09_Revision 4 document from RTA.

Minor changes to wheels

Wheels up to 26mm wider than the largest optional wheel recommended by the vehicle manufacturer for the
vehicle can be fitted without the need to notify the RTA.

The outside diameter of the wheel and tyre combination must be no more than 15mm over the largest diameter
wheel and tyre combination specified for the vehicle and not more than 15mm below the smallest diameter wheel
and tyre combination specified for the vehicle.

Lows definitely look great, i'm just skeptical about bottoming out on bumpy roads. If the sp's aren't going to lower it at all there isn't much point in changing from stock because the car feels really planted and flat in the twisties already. I'll pm a couple of you soon to get some photos and so fourth. Cheers :)

Lows definitely look great, i'm just skeptical about bottoming out on bumpy roads. If the sp's aren't going to lower it at all there isn't much point in changing from stock because the car feels really planted and flat in the twisties already. I'll pm a couple of you soon to get some photos and so fourth. Cheers :)

couple of things to mention:

- if you are skeptical about lows, then go SPs, safest option. After all lowering a 4x4, just defits the purpose if you wanna go on bumpy roads.
- don't cheap out on shocks, they usually last at best till about 150000km if lucky, you've already got 128000km. Get them changed onces and for all and you have nothing to look back at.

OOps - I stuffed up big time in one way - the diameter does not have to be EXACTLY the same - that's just stupid.
RTA allows 15mm diameter difference in NSW and I _think_ other states are the same.

So if those tyres are more than 15mm different to the largest and smallest diameter tyre on the placard of your vehicle, and you're checked over by a cop it's probably a canary for you.
And if it's the insurance company after an at fault incident, I'd hate to think what would happen.

Just be safe and choose the right tyres for your car or get it engineered to confirm that it's safe on the road.

Here's an excert from the VSI09_Revision 4 document from RTA.


Here you go.... (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139924&postcount=22)

Tyre dia varies a bit between brands but to be legal it has to be within 15mm of stock dia. of tyre.


Stock 215/60 x 16 is 664 mm

235/45 x 17 is 645mm

235/40 x 18 is 645mm

245/40 x 18 is 653mm


235/45 x 17 and 235/40 x 18 are not legal. These are all Bridgestone figures.

Cheers,
Alan

Lows definitely look great, i'm just skeptical about bottoming out on bumpy roads.
I know I only have a lighter FWD, but its on Lows/KYBs and I don't have any issues on bumpy roads. I've only had it bottom out once on the highway in two and a bit years (over a massive pothole - it was so bad I was seriously worried I bent a stock 17" rim), and that's despite driving from Brisbane to the sticks a couple of times a year and going on QMD cruises through the back roads.

If you're worried, have you considered custom springs? Low height and a slightly stiffer springrate would be a winner IMO.


If the sp's aren't going to lower it at all there isn't much point in changing from stock because the car feels really planted and flat in the twisties already
I'd still go the SPs over stock, if just for handling... my Lows transformed the handling of my car... an AWD would have to be nuts on stiffer springs.


235/45 x 17 and 235/40 x 18 are not legal.
If you have stock 225/50R17 tyres, 235/40R18 are legal (11mm smaller). On an AWD you could always sneak a FWD VR-X/Ralliart tyre card on ;)

If you are worried about hitting the bumpstops even the slightest then don't lower your car. Mine has punched the stops on SP's...

The answer lies with the suspension supplier- if you ask the correct question- they have specified methods for measuring ride height- for eg I have been trying to find out about standard ride heightfor my TL AWD (yes very boring) Pedders have a system (for rear ride height) for their lowering kit that measures from top of guard to rim nearest the road through the centre line of the wheel- for their lower spec spring they specify a 17" rim and their measurement is 610mm (on lows). Kings have a similar system but their measurement is to the centre point of the wheel- if you can get these specs for the front end as well at least then you have some real data to base your decission on- gives you a starting point with what you have got now and an expected end point- then if it does not match your expectations when finished also gives you some point or recourse or follow up that you may not have got what you paid for!!

If you are worried about hitting the bumpstops even the slightest then don't lower your car. Mine has punched the stops on SP's...
I'm not worried about it hitting the stops if I hit a pot hole or something, that's bound to happen at some point, just don't want it hitting the bump stops if theres a slight bump in the road, like the main roads around your area for instance, the Verada was almost hitting the bump stops on every single bump driving down there at 100, that's the sort of thing I want to avoid.

Whats the opinions on resetting the factory springs to sit a little lower? I'm imagining that'd cause more issues that it'd save have the softer factory spring rate with less travel?

It was probably hitting the bumpstops because the shocks were probably shagged, Usually a 30mm lowering on SP's, wont get close to bump stops driving normally, but like anything huge potholes or carting a full boot of gear + people in the back, the likelyhood of it bottoming out is higher (obviously :P)

From my various searchings on here, looking for shocks and springs for mine, the KYB excels, and the King 30mm seem to be the popular choice for budget with Koni's being for the more track minded individual.

Resetting springs is also pretty popular with other model cars, but for me personally its something i wouldnt do, especially with aftermarket springs being fairly cheap these days.

It was probably hitting the bumpstops because the shocks were probably shagged, Usually a 30mm lowering on SP's, wont get close to bump stops driving normally, but like anything huge potholes or carting a full boot of gear + people in the back, the likelyhood of it bottoming out is higher (obviously :P)

From my various searchings on here, looking for shocks and springs for mine, the KYB excels, and the King 30mm seem to be the popular choice for budget with Koni's being for the more track minded individual.

Resetting springs is also pretty popular with other model cars, but for me personally its something i wouldnt do, especially with aftermarket springs being fairly cheap these days.
Shocks were brand new KYB's, so highly unlikely they were shagged!

If the 30mm drop with the SP's is accurate (which is what I thought it was up until I started reading this thread of people saying they couldn't tell the difference), then that seems pretty suitable for what I'm after...I'm skeptical it'll only be 10-15mm lower now though from what I've read, which is barely noticeable.

If the 30mm drop with the SP's is accurate
Remember that the figures quoted are from a standard Magna. The sport models are already about 10mm lower, so 15-20mm lower is a more realistic estimate. It could easily be 10-15mm if your suspension has sagged a bit from age.

I wouldn't discount the Lows simply because the Superlows in your Verada were hitting the bumpstops. Back when I was researching into lowering my car, the consensus seemed to be that the Lovells weren't anywhere near as firm as the Kings (be it Low or SPs).

Lugo, you will not be hitting bump stops continously on lows. I'm on holiday with a fully loaded car and on some very average NSW roads and havent hit a bump stop yet.

Also, you will never bottm out the rear. Plenty of travel there. Only ever the fronts but this will be rare.

Just my opinion dude but if you go thesp's, you will be back a week later changing to lows. As someone else said, do your shocks at the same time.

If you are worried about it hitting the bumpstops, why not get stiffer springs and shocks at the height of your choosing.

From my various searchings on here, looking for shocks and springs for mine, the KYB excels, and the King 30mm seem to be the popular choice for budget with Koni's being for the more track minded individual.

Resetting springs is also pretty popular with other model cars, but for me personally its something i wouldnt do, especially with aftermarket springs being fairly cheap these days.

I've got KYB's in mine (TL Awd on Kings lows) and I've been very underimpressed with them. I don't know what spec they are. I fitted them at around 50K Klm and I couldn't tell the difference between them and the OEM units. I don't reckon the OEM units were that good. Now got about 158K klm on them and I reckon its getting close to replace time.

re resetting springs. Most of the cost in a spring is in the heat treatment after the coil is wound. Its usually easier to just get a new spring made than get the old one reset. There is not much difference in the price. Keep in mind to get a coil reset correctly it has to heat treated twice. Once to anneal it so it can be reset and then again to turn it back into a spring rather than a coil of thick wire.

bollie7

I have an AWD Sports.

Hilly part of Sydney, close to home a big dip to go over a local stream. However in the bottom of the dip there is a secondary undulation.

WHen the car was standard I could bottom the front suspension out, driver only, at around 60 kph.

Now have King's SPs and Konis. The limit is now around 80 kph.

Tried Lows, INMHO just do not work on an AWD on rough roads. I found that I could bottom out onto the bump stops too easily.

Changed to SP's about a year ago. Ride height is much better, now don't scrape the exhaust on speed bumps, handling is much improved.

Also the AWD does not really like too much negative camber either front or rear. Inside edge tyre wear then becomes excessive and the car is a bit nervous.
Just as Alan TJ advises, run a tad of negative say 0.75° at the front, also after I lowered the car I also adjusted the rears to be back in spec.

Just goes round corners without dramas now.

Gerry

Can someone tell me if the AWD's run a different alignment spec to the FWD's?

Does the alignment machine have a seperate spec for AWD magna's?

Also, i thought the magna's were not camber adjustable without adding a kit. Is this right?

run a tad of negative say 0.75° at the front,

I'd suggest going all the way to -1.0° on the front. I ran this on my Magna and front tyre wear was still even (some have run more, but I found 1° to be enough. On stock camber settings the outer edge of the tyres used to scrub out.

So are we talking tow here or camber?

Can someone who knows tell us weather stock magna's/awd's come with camber adjustment on front or rear?
My understanding was that they don't.

So are we talking tow here or camber?

Can someone who knows tell us weather stock magna's/awd's come with camber adjustment on front or rear?
My understanding was that they don't.

No camber adjustment from stock, need to add camber bolts or strut tops for camber adjustment.

So are we talking tow here or camber?

Can someone who knows tell us weather stock magna's/awd's come with camber adjustment on front or rear?
My understanding was that they don't.

Camber can only be adjusted through the use of aftermarket kits.

Whiteline do a camber bolt for the front - it fits AWD & FWD. There's a kit that can correct too much neg camber on the rear but I'm unsure if it's discontinued or not. It also suits AWD & FWD.

Directly from King

SP are 30mm
Low are 45mm

Family Wagon has the SP in his KE and has Lows in the front of the AWD with SP in the back end (due to the heavy gas tank in the boot)

Aside from the flex pipe on the headers coping a little scrape he has had not issues that I am aware of on either cars with bottoming out. I should know as I work on all 3 of his cars lol.

Now some around here will never be happy with any suspension no matter what fitted however those wanting to know about the lows, these are a great allround spring for both ride height, looks, handling and well as ride comfort. If you were to go SL then bump stops will be an issue however with lows, while you may occasionally hit them on a real bad road or hitting a gutter, you will generally not touch them with normal driving let alone cardigan driving.

FamilyWagon has been very happy with his lows in the KJ AWD and after the gas was installed we then put the SP's into the back end to compensate for the gas tank wich again levelled the car nicely

Family Wagon's AWD does ride nicely, when is his car, only thing too low with 3 of us in the car was the mud flaps touching the speed bumps

Well said Mal.
Yeah the front mud flaps to get a bit of a work out over speed bumps but its only a soft scrape, nothing harsh and at least you know you are not doing any damage.

I have messed around with spring/shock combos enough through the 3 rada's.

SP's look fairly stock to me and even ride firmer than the lows.
Pedders are just shit all round.
And the lows are the best of all in my opinion.(stock rims) Softer than SP's and even cope with some roads surfaces better than the origional springs.
The Monroe GT GAS help being a soft shock most of the time but firm when required.

Front flex pipe has had a few light grazes due to the flex being ever so slightly lower(1 to 2mm) lower than the chassis rail.
Never use to scrape at all before i put the hedders on. Not a big issue really.

I'd suggest going all the way to -1.0° on the front. I ran this on my Magna and front tyre wear was still even (some have run more, but I found 1° to be enough. On stock camber settings the outer edge of the tyres used to scrub out.

Wheel alignment is more a driver/road thing than car specific. Also remember every tyre is different so what works with one tyre will not necessarily work with another. More km on twisty road + sporty driver = needs more neg camber and possibly up to 2-3mm toe out if no adjustment for more caster. Mostly straight roads + steady driver = 0 neg camber and 0 toe.

Most commonly if you want good tyre wear/life then 0.7-0.9 deg neg front and 0 neg rear, and zero toe front and rear will suit for general driving. Personally I don't like toe in. Some reckon there is better braking stability but I've never felt it, cross wind stability is better though with up to 1mm toe in. If you drive with an oversteery style then toe in can help slow rear end slides on wet roads.

For faster drivers on twisty roads you want up around 1.5 neg front and zero toe. If wearing outer shoulders add toe out, up to 3mm. At rear it depends if you like a car to oversteer. If just want minimal understeer then about 0.7-0.9 deg neg rear and zero toe, but if you like oversteer add toe out. THIS CAN BE DANGEROUS ON WET ROADS OR VERY HIGH SPEED DRY CORNERS as the car can very quickly flick into oversteer so is best reserved for track days. Particularly if your style is to lift off into corners rather then drive into them.

Cheers,
Alan

Apparently from the research I've done the drop measurements by King are based off a standard Magna, so with the VRX's already slightly lower suspension, I'm to expect a 15-20mm drop from SP's and 30-35mm drop from the Low's, which seems to match up with what you guys have been saying.

I'm no expert when it comes to things like toe and camber so I think I'll just let my mechanic align it back to standard when its fitted, then perhaps make a few minor adjustments when I've got a better understanding of what each adjustment will do, and how it will affect the car in comparison to how it drives stock.

I've still got a week or so to wait until I order the suspension anyway, so I'll use that time to hopefully do a little actual comparing thanks to the offers made by a couple of members and make a definitely choice from there, but at the moment the King Low's seem to be the suitable choice, which just leaves me with shockers to decide on, but I'm already pretty settled on what I want there.

Wheel alignment is more a driver/road thing than car specific. Also remember every tyre is different so what works with one tyre will not necessarily work with another. More km on twisty road + sporty driver = needs more neg camber and possibly up to 2-3mm toe out if no adjustment for more caster. Mostly straight roads + steady driver = 0 neg camber and 0 toe.

Most commonly if you want good tyre wear/life then 0.7-0.9 deg neg front and 0 neg rear, and zero toe front and rear will suit for general driving. Personally I don't like toe in. Some reckon there is better braking stability but I've never felt it, cross wind stability is better though with up to 1mm toe in. If you drive with an oversteery style then toe in can help slow rear end slides on wet roads.

For faster drivers on twisty roads you want up around 1.5 neg front and zero toe. If wearing outer shoulders add toe out, up to 3mm. At rear it depends if you like a car to oversteer. If just want minimal understeer then about 0.7-0.9 deg neg rear and zero toe, but if you like oversteer add toe out. THIS CAN BE DANGEROUS ON WET ROADS OR VERY HIGH SPEED DRY CORNERS as the car can very quickly flick into oversteer so is best reserved for track days. Particularly if your style is to lift off into corners rather then drive into them.

Cheers,
Alan

I probably did drive a little more aggressively in cornering then some, but regardless of the tyres I ran (always 225/45/17s) I always had outer edge tyre scrub with the factory alignment and Pedders springs that sat 30mm lower then factory. By the time I sold the car I had the front camber set to -1.0 Deg with factory toe settings and a rear 22mm adjustable sway set to the hardest setting with rear alignment set to factory too. For my driving style this was a massive improvement over stock. The dead spot near centre was no longer evident and turn in was sharp, very little understeer ever. Driven smoothly it never had snap oversteer, if it did it was always progressive and predictable.

It actually had a fairlly higher grip threshold then my Clubsport (stock suspension), just didn't ride anywhere near as smoothly (compromise I guess).