Hey guys. Havent been here for a while. First of all Merry Xmas.
Sadly i'm coming here with not good news and i need some opinions on whats going on...

Car: TL Magna ES 2003

Heres the story...
Turned the car on. Then, 100 meteres down the road, i heard a repetitive, ticking sound. Sounded like something was stuck to the tire. So as i pulled over i realized this was not the tire as the noise was still there. So i got out of the car and heard it coming from underneath the bonnet. Popped the bonnet and heard the ticking sound was coming from the belt side of the engine. But at first, there was nothing visibly wrong. It 100% sounded from somewhere outside of the engine. Like something stuck on of the pulleys or something. First thing i looked at were the belts, but, from first looks nothing appeared unusual. Then, sound kind of became different like something was slipping or.... it was very hard to explain. So quickly shut the engine off. Had another look around but seen nothing unusual again. Mind you, i am not very mechanically orientated with this type of car so, i really didnt even know what to look for.
So i tried to start the car again, and it was cranking over but no cigar. Didnt wanna start.

So, RACV guy came out. He was puzzled too. He had a quick look around the belts, and that side of engine, and nothing noticable. So we tried starting it again. Now this is where it became interesting...
We tried starting it maybe 3-4 times. Half those times i was cranking over as per usual but didnt start... Other times, something was spinning, (assuming it is the starter motor) but sounded like a belt was slipping somewhere, but car didnt crank at all.

THEN i mentioned to him that the 90k service was done @ mitsubishi 4 weeks ago. Which included timing belt. And they also replaced the engine mount on that side since it was cracked and they had to take it off anyway to get to timing belt. So he took a few nuts of the black timing belt cover off, [SEE IMAGE 1] and had a look and feel at the belt and everything seemed ok with it, like it was new and nice and tight. So that MAY rule out the timing belt... (heres hoping)

So then we decided to give it another 2 shots at starting...
He then noticed a few things. SEE IMAGE 2. I circled the belt... which appears to be shredded. One rib missing according to the RACV dude. AND when tried to start the car... something appeared to be moving beneath that cover where i circled @ the lower bigger pulley thing. (crankshaft?).

Car is off the road. Cant get it to mitsy since they are shut till tuesday.
So what are you thoughts guys? What sort of issue/damage am i looking at here. Could it be just something loose like the pulley or could it be something more sinister like internal damage such as crankshaft or something?? THe ticking sound definitely didnt sound or feel internal. And there was no visible oil or anyting like that present.
When they replaced the timing belt did they have to touch that bottom area at all? Such as pulleys or belts?? Maybe they forgot to tighten something or.... *shrug* i'm loss for words.
I apologise about the long story, its just im very paranoid about this. Ive had the car for nearly 5 years and never evr had any issues with it. It's been so good and reliable, regulary serviced and now this happens. :s

Thanks ahead for your thoughts guys.


Image 1:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll138/HEmko/Public/Magna%20Problem/magnaproblem2.jpg

Image 2:
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll138/HEmko/Public/Magna%20Problem/magnaproblem1.jpg

i had a honda in the shop recently that someone hadnt tightened the crank shaft pulley correctly and the bolt came loose.
this resulted in a flapping noise generated by the shim between the pulley and crank sprocket hitting the timing belt cover, and at times the other shim between the engine and timing sprocket produced a rumbling/screeching noise.
it is possible that the same has happened here and the resulting production of metal filings is interfering with the crank angle sensor signal.

but i'm just guessing.... a sound byte would be nice

Considering your in Vic mate have you spoken to Madmagna?
He would be the best person to talk to or even look at it

Where abouts in VIC are you?

Thanks for the replies guys.
To Ash:
I really hope something is loose only Ash, and nothing else major. The RACV bloke also thinks there is just something loose underneath that cover. But who knows? What is the worst that can happen down there? I'm guessing the serious damage would have been if it were the timing belt slipping or breaking which is all the way up the top, which would throw the timing out internally and "adios muchachos" engine. This was my worst initial fear. As for sound-recording it... I'm not too keen on having another go at starting it in case i dig my self deeper into s***.

To Roberto:
Nope, i dont even know who Madmagna is. Haven't spoken to anybody yet, and haven't had anybody look at it other than the racv dude, since ironically mitsubishi shut for the xmas break 15 minutes before my break-down and majority of the mechanics in the area have done the same. So i was forced to tow it home. It's going to mitsubishi (heidelberg) tuesday morning to see what they say. Thats where the timing belt + all services on the car so far have been done.

To Magna Diver:
I'm in thomastown, northern melbourne suburb.

Mate,
I'm in Mornington so a bit far to travel. If your'e mechanically minded you can check if the bottom crank pulley retainer bolt is loose by removing the drivers side front wheel and removing the round plug on the inner plastic guard. This will give limited access/ visability to the crank pulley retaining bolt. If it's loose and you can get your hand onto it the bolt may unscrew.

Cheers

Mate,
I'm in Mornington so a bit far to travel. If your'e mechanically minded you can check if the bottom crank pulley retainer bolt is loose by removing the drivers side front wheel and removing the round plug on the inner plastic guard. This will give limited access/ visability to the crank pulley retaining bolt. If it's loose and you can get your hand onto it the bolt may unscrew.

Cheers

Sweet.
I may have a go at that today mate. Thanks for that.
When you say crank pulley, i wanna make sure we're talking about the same one here... It is the bigger pulley, on the right of the circled bit in my PHOTO 2, correct? We sort of pushed and nudged that (with the racv bloke) and it didnt appear to be loose. Well, not at first anyway. But i will check again today.

Yep that's the one. You'll find the pulley bolt has provision for a half inch square drive extension bar to fit into the end of it.

Cheers

Had a go at it today. And cannot reach the bolt inside. The pulley its self does not appear/feel to be loose, and neither does the belt going around it. However, the belt is definitely shredded as i've seen. Is there anything behind that black cover around the pulley area that could have come off loose?? You mentioned a crank angle sensor, would this be it ?
And also, when they replaced the timing belt, would they have disturbed that area behind that cover etc ?

Had a go at it today. And cannot reach the bolt inside. The pulley its self does not appear/feel to be loose, and neither does the belt going around it. However, the belt is definitely shredded as i've seen. Is there anything behind that black cover around the pulley area that could have come off loose?? You mentioned a crank angle sensor, would this be it ?
And also, when they replaced the timing belt, would they have disturbed that area behind that cover etc ?

The timing belt is behind the black cover. the belt/s you see on the outside is for the alternator, power steer etc. To change the timing belt, the outside belts, the bottom pulley (crank pulley) and the black covers have to be removed, just to get to the timing belt.

bollie7

Items located behind the black covers which may come loose if removed and not tightened properly during the timing belt change are:

The crank angle sensor - depends on whether or not they took it off so they could check / replace the front crankshaft oil seal
Cam pulley bolts - depends on whether or not they took them off so they could replace the camshaft oil seals
Cam belt idler pulley
Cam belt tensioner pulley
Cam belt hydraulic tensioner

Cheers

Remove the shredded belt and check that the idler pulley - the wheel on the left of your mark in the pictures - still rotates freely. If it is seized, replace it. Start the engine with the belt off, and listen for noises. If the cart won't start, the shredded belt has done some damage under the cover and it needs a mechanic to investigate further, unless you want to try yourself . . . .

If the Mitsu dealer did something wrong when changing the timing belt, they MAY like to fix it for free! Ring them up and negotiate, politely of course!

Sounds a lot like the crank angle sensor has come loose, assuming this engine runs one.

Download the tj/th manual here for free http://www.lisho.net/?page_id=3

The engine is the same and it should give you some good pointers

It'll rub on the timing belt and once out of place it wont start.

If so its probably the fault of the people that did the service.

If it is it isnt a major problem as long as its all in one piece.

Definately give madmagna a pm and ask him to look at this thread.

Hey, I am Madmagna and your resident mits specialist lol

If you belt is still tight that does not mean all is still safe as Mits do not replace the idler and tensioner pulley, these can be an issue

I have had a few of late from dealerships where the crank pulley is loose, also had one where the CAS was also loose and was destroyed by the pick up plate. This confused me a little as Mits did not need to remove it as again they generally do not replace seals either (not sure why to be honest, just seems that if the book does not state it they dont do it)

The above would explain why it will not start now as well as without the CAS you will not have a running engine

I would leave it be, take it back to Mits on Tues and get them to look at it. If they come up with some rubbish about it being something else and costing you, let me know first and I will let you know if this is possible. Also if it is their work that has been stuffed up, make them pay for the tow. After all, with the amount of money you would have been overcharged it is the least they can do

I would leave it be, take it back to Mits on Tues and get them to look at it. If they come up with some rubbish about it being something else and costing you, let me know first and I will let you know if this is possible. Also if it is their work that has been stuffed up, make them pay for the tow. After all, with the amount of money you would have been overcharged it is the least they can do

Hey Mad.
Nice meetin'
To be honest with you i'm not fussed about towing costs, RACV will pay for it anyway. Even if it is their fault, i just want them to fix it, and fix it properly this time. Thats all. So i can have my car back.

What i'm more worried about is them, attempting to pull a shifty on me and (assuming it is something they did or didnt do to cause this fault), say it is something that just happens and would have happened regardless of their service on the car or not. This is whats concerning me the most, especially if "whatever" happened, caused more damage(internally?). As i said i am not too mechanically minded about this engine, and they can pull all sorts of lies on me without me even knowing. Thats why i'm here and thanks to you guys im sort of getting an idea of whats happening in there so that on tuesday they dont try and screw me over. I understand, things do happen and things do break, and fair enough i dont mind paying for it. As ive mentioned in start of thread, ive had the car for a few years now and it has been absolutely flawless. An awesome car. But if it is something they contributed to cause this, how am i to know. After all they are dealership servicing, and have had them try and pull shifties on me before. I"m willing to bet my last cent they will blame it on something else, even if they do find that they didnt do something right.

But all will be releaved on tuesday i guess.

Hey guys.
Had a family friend over who is an ex-diesel mechanic, so he would not know much about these cars. Howeverhe had a very quick look and made a phone call to one of his mates, and they think there is no sensor under that cover since there is a distributor on the top or something :hmm:. He was talking in real tech/mechanical terms so, i was lost from the first minute. :nuts:

Is this possible? I assusmed all engines would have to have CAS-es ?
Cars going to mitsy tommorow so .... :eeek: . nervous.

Maate,
in photo one there is a black cable that runs from within the timing case cover to a connection plug on the inlet manifold. That cable is from the CAS so if is unplugged, damaged (wires broken, CAS defective) etc the vehicle will not start.

Cheers

While the distributor houses the cam angle sensor the crank angle sensor is on front of engine behind lower timing belt cover

Suspense! Car going to repairs tommorow morning. *crosses fingers*
LOL. I know i sounds like a little girl but being without my magna for last 5 days has left me feeling like a naked man on the street with no $! I love that car, it's always been so smooth and reliable until ... this. :wtf:

Anyways i wanted to ask, if engine is running and the crank angle sensor falls off/stops working. Will the engine keep on working? Or is CAS purely for starting purposes ?

Mate, your mate had the best intentions but it does have a CAS

Remember, if they try and charge you, contact me first

Suspense! Car going to repairs tommorow morning. *crosses fingers*
LOL. I know i sounds like a little girl but being without my magna for last 5 days has left me feeling like a naked man on the street with no $! I love that car, it's always been so smooth and reliable until ... this. :wtf:

Anyways i wanted to ask, if engine is running and the crank angle sensor falls off/stops working. Will the engine keep on working? Or is CAS purely for starting purposes ?

If the crank angle sensor falls off/stops the engine wont run as its what telling the injectors when to fuel.

Well the cars at Mitsubishi from early this morning. It's a waiting game to see what they come up with.

Finally picked it up. And some good news. :facejump:
They fixed it under warranty of service/timing belt change.
Cause:
For *unknown* reason, the power steering belt got shredded and then it loosened up, causing another pulley, to make the timing belt skip at the bottom :eek2: . The guy i spoke to/picked it up from, knew only so much since all the other boys who knew more about it, left home by then. They seemed pretty good and understanding about it.
However driving home i'm noticing, a rather distinct burning smell/oil smell. I cant work out what it is, i hope its just the belts, etc wearing in. So i will keep an eye (well, nose) out on it.

Parts replaced:
1 x V-Belt power steering
1 x Belt Timing
1 x Cover-ASSY-TI
1 x Blade-CRANKSH

Once again, thanks for the advice and info guys :)

Mate, you got lucky then. When my power steering belt "shredded", seconds later it took the timing belt and engine with it...

Keep an eye on it - chances are valves and pistons said hello to each other! Maybe have just been a gentle kiss, but I would be inclined to have an independent compression test done and be very very aware of any misfiring and idle unevenness.

A very minor bend in a valve may allow it to run "ok" for a while, but sooner rather than later any tweaked valve is going to burn its seat out.

Yet another reminder of why I fix my own cars, even though I can afford "mechanics".... :(

Keep an eye on it - chances are valves and pistons said hello to each other! Maybe have just been a gentle kiss, but I would be inclined to have an independent compression test done and be very very aware of any misfiring and idle unevenness.

A very minor bend in a valve may allow it to run "ok" for a while, but sooner rather than later any tweaked valve is going to burn its seat out.

Yet another reminder of why I fix my own cars, even though I can afford "mechanics".... :(

Doesnt sound too good. But thanks for the heads up. It's a very funny oily smell. Hard to describe i'm not a mechanic. Kind of smelt the same after their last service, but eventually it went away. And after i picked it up i drove it around for 30-45 minutes and the car seemed fine as did the engine no dramas with idling or any sort of unusual activity, apart from the smell. But yes i will definitely keep an eye and nose out on it.

The smell will just be greasy paw prints burning off the engine as it gets hot - dont stress about that. Did it ever make any knocking/ticking noises when the belt skipped? If not, you might have been (very very very very) lucky ;)

Wouldn't stress too much - they already admitted fault in the belt job, so if it pops a valve now you will get a new motor ;)

The smell will just be greasy paw prints burning off the engine as it gets hot - dont stress about that. Did it ever make any knocking/ticking noises when the belt skipped? If not, you might have been (very very very very) lucky ;)

Wouldn't stress too much - they already admitted fault in the belt job, so if it pops a valve now you will get a new motor ;)

Yes but i'd rather not since. 1. Inconvenience 2. I kinda feel bad.
And when the initial fault happened there was no knocking or engine rumblng or shaking. It sounded definitely on the outside, within that plastic cover. Its as if you stuck a piece of plastic into a bike wheel spoke while the wheel is turning. I think i got lucky since i shut the engine off in time.

I wouldnt feel bad if they were up for a new motor!!! Timing belts are pretty basic jobs for workshops and not one that should be got wrong! Hope they pay more attention to brakes and steering work... :(

But as you say, it seems you shut the motor down in time. And were lucky! Seen a few Renault engines that shredded the accessory belt and took out the timing belt with it - usually means a destroyed motor regardless of what make of car it is... Renault stipulate that a new accessory belt must be fitted whenever the timing belt is done (most dead engines are result of someone skimping on a $50 accessory belt...) - I would apply this logic to Magnas and anything else as well. (you did get a new acc belt on it right?)

Come to think of it, I would expect a new timing belt on it too, not just the old one retimed. Who knows how many teeth were unduly stressed by being dragged over pulley cogs? Its a cheap part, and not one you skimp on.

Come to think of it, I would expect a new timing belt on it too, not just the old one retimed. Who knows how many teeth were unduly stressed by being dragged over pulley cogs? Its a cheap part, and not one you skimp on.

They did put a new timing belt on.


(you did get a new acc belt on it right?)

Sorry i dont recall they mentioning an accessory belt.

They changed the timing and power steering belt.

Power steering belt = one of the 2 accessory belts. They are the 2 belts you can see moving when the engine is on. Between them they run the power steering pump, aircon compressor and alternator. The power steering one is, IIRC closest to the timing case.

Seems like a recurring problem - the accessory belt is put on incorrectly, with one of its ribs riding the edge of the pulley. It shreds, and bits of the shredding belt enter the timing belt space and muck something up under the cover - either the CAS or causing jumping the timing belt teeth. Something to check and watch out for if those outer belts are ever disturbed/replaced by the home mechanic or dealer. I have checked mine, several times! It's worthwhile to check the condition of these belts everytime you lift the bonnet (hood for you USA readers).

Ill be keeping an eye out on it. Don't worry about that. After last week.

Finally picked it up. And some good news. :facejump:
They fixed it under warranty of service/timing belt change.
Cause:
For *unknown* reason, the power steering belt got shredded and then it loosened up, causing another pulley, to make the timing belt skip at the bottom :eek2: . The guy i spoke to/picked it up from, knew only so much since all the other boys who knew more about it, left home by then. They seemed pretty good and understanding about it.
However driving home i'm noticing, a rather distinct burning smell/oil smell. I cant work out what it is, i hope its just the belts, etc wearing in. So i will keep an eye (well, nose) out on it.

Parts replaced:
1 x V-Belt power steering
1 x Belt Timing
1 x Cover-ASSY-TI
1 x Blade-CRANKSH

Once again, thanks for the advice and info guys :)

Mate, if the belt slipped far enough to stop the engine, chances are you have bent valves, if you want to be safe drop over and I will at least test the front 3 cyl

The reason the belt came off in parts is either that it was due for replacement and they did not replace as is the usual case or was over tightened, either way their fault.

You are damned lucky it did not take the timing belt right off as often happens. TWW had this happen but his mechanic tried to charge him as well, not sure what the outcome ended up being

If you are smelling burnt oil the chances are the front oil seal was damaged, this for some reason is something Mits are petrified of replacing and would rather leave a leaking one there.

What is it with the fear if replacing oil seals...? Come across this many times, and it really makes me question the training parts exchangers, I mean mechanics.., are getting these days! It's basic basic stuff!

Rear main seals are a good one - had one mechanic try to tell me it's not worth replacing it routinly when doing a clutch!!! A $10 seal you have to remove the gearbox to get at! Why on earth would you not... If you can't reliably fit an oil seal, you have no business doing a clutch....

Good point about the rear oil seal however remember in some Magna's the sump also needs to be removed to get the carrier out as the seal goes in from the other side thus the labour cost increases greatly.

To be perfectly honest, I do not generally do the rear main seal with a clutch, to be honest again these are not an issue on the thrid gens as they were on the second gens.

BUT having said that, most of the clutch replacements have been with manual conversions, no dust in there from the torque converter to damage the seal anyway

With the 100k service all Mits change is the belt only, I do not generally believe that doing the water pump at 100k is really needed unless there is obvious bearing noise, leakage or issue, seals however are not netotiable, they should be done for the extra 40 mins effort

Hear what you're saying about hassles with seal carriers and sumps - its still waaaay easier when the gearbox is already off, and plenty of rear mains (brand of car notwithstanding - theyre all the same basic type of seal) have gone without warning. If a car is more than a couple of years old, youre going to feel very silly if it leaks a little while after you had the box out anyway :)

Inclined to apply this theory to timing belt driven waterpumps too... A seized pump will take out an engine in the same way as a shredded pwr steering belt can!

Anyway - mild hijack to rant ;) I think we can all agree Emko has had a close shave here!

Mate, if the belt slipped far enough to stop the engine, chances are you have bent valves, if you want to be safe drop over and I will at least test the front 3 cyl



Hey Mad. Thanks for the offer mate. I will see how the car goes over the next few days etc... before i get paranoid.
As you mention here about belt stopping engine. The belt didnt stop the engine when it occured. After i popped the bonnet and hearing the noise getting louder,i was the one who turned it off. And lucky i did.

Been driving around lots today, in melbournes heat. And the smell is all but gone. Even with the bonnet popped, i can smell very very little of whatever is burning compared to yesterday. Almost nothing compared to yesterday. But other than that the car is very smooth idling and driving, even with air-con on. SO maybe it was the stuff burning off as someone suggested here. *shrug*

Sure hope so but when the belt is changed there is no reason oil will leak unless they have changed the seals this time and been careless with moping up the spilt oil which is really slack for a dealer

hey Guys.
Happy New Year first of all :facejump:

It was mentioned here about the 2 accesory belts.

Are these the 2 as seen in this photo.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll138/HEmko/Public/Magna%20Problem/magnaproblem1.jpg

So the belt, circled one in photo and the one around the crank pulley, lower right of photo ?? Are the the 2 accesory belts???

If they are, then yes they were both replaced as well as the timing belt. I took a good look today and both of them are brand new. And the smell i mentioned is now all but gone. Can hardly smell anything and the car is running like clockwork. *knocks on wood*.