can someone explain why it is so hard to supercharge our Magnas?

does anyone have idea how much it would cost to make a custom inlet manifold?
anyone know what sort of internals are needed if you were to run low boost?
What sort of Engine Management are needed?
In comparison to Turbo, how much would supercharging cost?

i was quoted $8500 for a supercharger
and $7500 for a big single mofo turbo

Yeah turbo setups always seam to come in cheaper

Due to the placement of the charger. Turbo's have more freedom as they run off the exhaust gas whereas superchargers are off the crank.

I read an article not long ago about using an imported centifugel supercharger off a Toyota in Japan. I can't remember the specifics but the code was a 1G supercharger. Basically it is no good for larger capacity engines and not much can be tuned from it, but I read that you at least get 30 boosted Kw which would be enough for some pretty decent times.

If anybody was seriously interested, i'll dig up the article and post it. From memory the total cost of the supercharger and mounting kit was about $1800 plus fitting.

Any good 'blowa' conversion *should* involve a full engine rebuild with upgrade to tougher crank, rods and pistons because of the amount stress they place on the engine.

Mate of mine is in the process of saving up for a 'blowa' conversion to his BA XR6 ute (the non turbo one obiously) - he was quoted 12000 and that included full rebuild.

I've never heard of a turbo conversion that involved a full rebuild.

I read an article not long ago about using an imported centifugel supercharger off a Toyota in Japan. I can't remember the specifics but the code was a 1G supercharger. Basically it is no good for larger capacity engines and not much can be tuned from it, but I read that you at least get 30 boosted Kw which would be enough for some pretty decent times.

If anybody was seriously interested, i'll dig up the article and post it. From memory the total cost of the supercharger and mounting kit was about $1800 plus fitting.
yeah... a lad at work has one on his 3.8L VN... gives a BIT of a increase (Prolly round 25-40kw) but it makes the car feel like **** to drive IMHO... really 'tight' sorta.. like it's got REALLY high compresson..

The cool thing about the supercharger kit he got is that it has an electric clutch to stop operation... flick a switch to turn it back on, she engages, & away she goes!

I can't remember where he got it, but I'm pretty sure it was under $3000.


Any good 'blowa' conversion *should* involve a full engine rebuild with upgrade to tougher crank, rods and pistons because of the amount stress they place on the engine.

Mate of mine is in the process of saving up for a 'blowa' conversion to his BA XR6 ute (the non turbo one obiously) - he was quoted 12000 and that included full rebuild.

I've never heard of a turbo conversion that involved a full rebuild.
WHY is he supercharging an XR6? :nuts: It would have been cheaper, easy & more powerful as a factory Turbo with exhaust! :redface: Sure it's different, but there's probly a reason it's RARE :confused:

Anyways, there is no more reason u should rebuild for supercharger, then a turbo... unless ur driven a charger designed to power a truck.
I'd nearly bet that most u see a rebuilt because 95% are ****ehouse Holden & Ford V8s, with 10,000,000,000,000,000kms, that they are trying to get 10,000hp out of! lol

If anything a lower-compression metal head gasket, intercooling, and a good tune from a decent EMS should more then get u through any low-boost applications.

CAPA have Vortec supercharger kit that boost the BA Falcons 182kW to 280kW at 9psi for around $7000 reliablly without the need for rebuilds, after that they have a boost kit witch includes a 14psi pulley, larger injectors and fuel pump that brings power to around 300kW :shock: :D

But one thing with the above setup is that the factory turbo builds boost quicker and at lighter throtle opennings :P

CAPA have Vortec supercharger kit that boost the BA Falcons 182kW to 280kW at 9psi for around $7000 reliablly without the need for rebuilds, after that they have a boost kit witch includes a 14psi pulley, larger injectors and fuel pump that brings power to around 300kW :shock: :D

But one thing with the above setup is that the factory turbo builds boost quicker and at lighter throtle opennings :P
weird!! why would 9psi give 280kW and 14 psi only give 300kW?? might have to go and check CAPA.....

as for that mate and his BA ute, what a mug! he's gunna spend how much :shock: to get somewhere close to 280kW (guessing from the CAPA quote) shoulda got the XR6T for $3½k more than the stock XR6, and then gone to APS with another $5,650 fitted and had 330kW!!! easy as!!! and then he woulda had left over money for the gear box & diff replacement!!!

i work for an engine component company, and at one stage they were chasing a contract with Mitsu to put superchargers (sprintex) on some magnas. didnt really hear much about it thou. think it fell through.

bummer thou, cos our guys know what theyre doin. mite have been a couple of blown engines on the way thou, but ah well lol

Trav

weird!! why would 9psi give 280kW and 14 psi only give 300kW?? might have to go and check CAPA.....

as for that mate and his BA ute, what a mug! he's gunna spend how much :shock: to get somewhere close to 280kW (guessing from the CAPA quote) shoulda got the XR6T for $3½k more than the stock XR6, and then gone to APS with another $5,650 fitted and had 330kW!!! easy as!!! and then he woulda had left over money for the gear box & diff replacement!!!

Remember that the APS numbers are ATW not at the fly-wheel.. so that's even more bang for your buck.

weird!! why would 9psi give 280kW and 14 psi only give 300kW?? might have to go and check CAPA.....

as for that mate and his BA ute, what a mug! he's gunna spend how much :shock: to get somewhere close to 280kW (guessing from the CAPA quote) shoulda got the XR6T for $3½k more than the stock XR6, and then gone to APS with another $5,650 fitted and had 330kW!!! easy as!!! and then he woulda had left over money for the gear box & diff replacement!!!

I said around 300kW, the article accually said 300+kW, but yeah it stupid when the XR6T is so good

CAPA have Vortec supercharger kit that boost the BA Falcons 182kW to 280kW at 9psi for around $7000 reliablly without the need for rebuilds, after that they have a boost kit witch includes a 14psi pulley, larger injectors and fuel pump that brings power to around 300kW :shock: :D

But one thing with the above setup is that the factory turbo builds boost quicker and at lighter throtle opennings :P

thats bec the vortech is not positive displacement type like the eaton, vortech is just a belt driven turbo, eaton pos displacement is off-idle-boost :D

The article stated would be interesting to have a look at - the 1G - I assume 1G-GZE - is a pretty small supercharger that may be a little restrictive on a large engine like the 3.5L...

Was the article for an installation on a magna or something else - you can pick up a 1G-GZE supercharger for about $450...

Cheers
Heath Young

[QUOTE=The Sandman]yeah... a lad at work has one on his 3.8L VN... gives a BIT of a increase (Prolly round 25-40kw) but it makes the car feel like **** to drive IMHO... really 'tight' sorta.. like it's got REALLY high compresson..

they just sound like that, its the gear drive system that makes them whine and sound sick, turbos sound beutiful by comparison.

also the reason there is so little gain fron going from 9psi pully to 14 psi pully on holden system is that there is no intercooling so the air is a lot more heated with the extra boost.

The article stated would be interesting to have a look at - the 1G - I assume 1G-GZE - is a pretty small supercharger that may be a little restrictive on a large engine like the 3.5L...

Was the article for an installation on a magna or something else - you can pick up a 1G-GZE supercharger for about $450...

Cheers
Heath Young

think it might be the 4AGZE, 1.6 s/c, thats a very popular transplant.

i hear u can put the 4agze/1agze on the 2.6l magna without any needed internal mods at first (prob cos the engine already runs a low comp. ratio).. but basically u need all the mounts, intake piping, a belt (& somewhere to hook the belt up).. some dude on the mogwa.org forums (http://www.mogwa.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4509) said he managed to connect one to the water pump - and had it running.. but with more ping than a chinese phone book.. but if better fuel pump & lines/timing/pulp fuel/tuning doesnt fix it, a decomp gasket & small intercooler should...

hell cheap if ur running a carb, but otherwise u'd probly have to do something with the ECU

I said around 300kW, the article accually said 300+kW, but yeah it stupid when the XR6T is so good
nah, APS quote their kits up to the phaseIII 390kW fly, but the $5000 kit i quoted is a 330kW fly, MOTOR mag tested one that was supposedly 330kW fly but got 282rwkW on the dyno which is more like 360kW fly!!! at any rate, it's still a lot of power... there are evidently kits coming from CAPA (supercharger for NA BA 6cyls) that will be around 390kW as well!!!

sure this isnt for the V8 ?

sure this isnt for the V8 ?
http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/falcon/xr6turbo.htm

whats the best way to put boost onto a 1st gen? ive been told sigma turbo parts but actually sourcing them is a problem cause they're rare as.

Just something i have noticed with superchargers is that they are easier to tune than turbo's the progression of the boost is more predictable and smoother than a turbo but in the end it is all a trade off, a turbo uses less hp but has lag, altho they are starting to get around this, and superchargers can't handle revs without losing bottom end power, same again they are starting to get around this as well, you need to work out where you want your power and how much you want and how it gets delivered to the wheels.

personally i love the sound of a supercharger whining on a big v8, but i doubt i would like it on a v6. i think superchargers suit v8s (but a twin turbo v8 is still nice) and turbos suit 6 cyl, 4cyl etc. but thats just wat i think.

Just something i have noticed with superchargers is that they are easier to tune than turbo's the progression of the boost is more predictable and smoother than a turbo but in the end it is all a trade off, a turbo uses less hp but has lag, altho they are starting to get around this, and superchargers can't handle revs without losing bottom end power, same again they are starting to get around this as well, you need to work out where you want your power and how much you want and how it gets delivered to the wheels.

i think this is why supercharging is old school compared to turbocharging now, i mean s/c was on 1930's pre WW2 aircraft and cars with water injection for cooling at best, while turbos really started appearing in the 80's but with hell lag and detonation problems, now with all the electronics and boost control devices available to improve tuning, turbo is really the way to go now.

i think this is why supercharging is old school compared to turbocharging now, i mean s/c was on 1930's pre WW2 aircraft and cars with water injection for cooling at best, while turbos really started appearing in the 80's but with hell lag and detonation problems, now with all the electronics and boost control devices available to improve tuning, turbo is really the way to go now.i wouldn't jump too far ahead, s/c still has some nice attributes, like newer ones which provide good boost right from idle (a lot more than any turbo can) and sustain it up high as well.... if turbo's were the best way to go no companies would be following s/c's any more, but go and look at AMG and that damn SL55 motor!! mind you, they have a better version in the V12TT they just brought out!! but still i wouldn't diss the s/cs too quickly!

maybe s/c is cleaner and greener than turbo, but cant be more clean in emmission than getting same power from bigger n/a engine. i mean any late 90's subaru FJ 20 turbo is 2.0 and makes 160-163Kw while a ford falcon from late 90's was double the size at 4.0 to make the same power 150-153Kw, the falcon cant be making the same power with less emissions.
also turbo diesel is very popular for economy and power now. the patrol has a big 4.5 petrol n/a or a 3.0 t/diesel replacing the old 4.2 diesel. last wek i drove my sisters patrol (the new big heavy model), with 3.0 t/d and it was annoying laggy around town, but then actually quite quick, did not feel slow and rough like a big diesel and didnt feel like only 116kw moving somthing like 2.5 tons. i cant see why u would buy a thirsty 4.5 petrol instead.

Turbo's have always and probably will always be the diesel engine means of getting better power out of the same size capacity engine. But this does'nt mean that they are only for diesel engine's, i have used and do love the sound and delivery of power of a turbo, but i think a limiting factor in the realm of petrol engines and getting max power out of them using a turbo is that you will run into cooling issues for the turbo and the under hood temp. But i am also coming from the angle of setting up sleepers, so big mods to body work to get it to flow heaps of air through the engine bay was an issue.

so is it the turbo sleeper u setting up a magna?

The article stated would be interesting to have a look at - the 1G - I assume 1G-GZE - is a pretty small supercharger that may be a little restrictive on a large engine like the 3.5L...

Was the article for an installation on a magna or something else - you can pick up a 1G-GZE supercharger for about $450...

Cheers
Heath Young

The article was actually written for a Commodore which has a 3.8 ltr engine. Although technology wise the Magna is far superior, I don't see why the same principle couldn't be adapted to our cars.

But yes in theory it will still be a little resrictive in the sense that once connected, there isn't too much playing you can do to increase performance more than about 30 Kw unless you fit something bigger.

will be just trying to get a few ideas and cash, have got the car which is a good start, but have heard that a few things on them are a bit fragile, as soon as you touch one thing you need to follow through and spend money on the whole thing. no point having a 500hp engine if you cant touch the throttle because the g/box will drop its guts.
Last sleeper was a nc fairlane with 375 at the wheels, lets just say that sleepers are a bit of fun

the patrol has a big 4.5 petrol n/a or a 3.0 t/diesel replacing the old 4.2 diesel. last wek i drove my sisters patrol (the new big heavy model), with 3.0 t/d and it was annoying laggy around town, but then actually quite quick, did not feel slow and rough like a big diesel and didnt feel like only 116kw moving somthing like 2.5 tons. i cant see why u would buy a thirsty 4.5 petrol instead.
you need to get over the whole peak power thing, it doesn't mean squat except that in most petrol applications a bigger top and usually means bigger values throughout the rev range!

The diesels don't produce a lot of peak power as they don't rev that hard, but they put out over 320Nm of torque (3L 4cyl TD Nissan) from around 1800rpm onwards (could be a bit lower), in the 4.2TD its from around 1500rpm! my dad drives his 4.2TD between 1400- 1800rpm all day, it pulls it no worries!! the turbo on it is tiny though (not as big as the 3L TD's!! even though its small too) and is made to give boost down low, for 4WD applications, and trust me, if you stalled this thing, it would be a miracle!!! even in 2nd gear starts!!

and if you think the patrol diesels hike a long try and get a ride in a Toureg V10!!! My boss went test driving one the other day, and took me for a ride! god damn they pull harder than a 15 year old boy!!

actually dingo i was suggesting that the peak power of 116kw was NOT important with the turbo diesel patrol. i know it was the torque that made it feel quick. however many big diesels have huge torque but take a long time to build revs, i was impressed by how quickly and smoothly the car revved out (after the lag).
i realised peak power was unreliable sign of performance when i went out with a woman who had a black ZR Celica, 2.2 140kw, that was prety fast in 1997, but it felt gutless to drive bec it was auto, and i didnt get to open her up.. :cry: the car that was :D

actually dingo i was suggesting that the peak power of 116kw was NOT important with the turbo diesel patrol. i know it was the torque that made it feel quick. however many big diesels have huge torque but take a long time to build revs, i was impressed by how quickly and smoothly the car revved out (after the lag).
i realised peak power was unreliable sign of performance when i went out with a woman who had a black ZR Celica, 2.2 140kw, that was prety fast in 1997, but it felt gutless to drive bec it was auto, and i didnt get to open her up.. :cry: the car that was :D
:cool: sorry bout that, didn't mean to sound like i was bagging you... but it did sound like you were a little lost over the way "116kW could pull 2.5 tonnes".... mind you, that 3L nissan diesel is a pretty good plant... its DOHC direct injection bla bla bla... it should be good!! now all the have to do is give the same treatment to the 4.2L and it will be a beast of an engine!!

all cool m8, an even better diesel gruntmonster is the Mitsubishi Canter truck, i dont know what the engine is but swear we used to leave behind traffic with a load of rubble in the tipper, and powerslide round corners when it was empty.

all cool m8, an even better diesel gruntmonster is the Mitsubishi Canter truck, i dont know what the engine is but swear we used to leave behind traffic with a load of rubble in the tipper, and powerslide round corners when it was empty.
haha, nice work! when unloaded those trucks have a pretty awsome torque to weight ratio!!! but it would be over low revs and a limited rev range, i had to drive 4WD 10 tonne bushfire trucks which were all mitsubishi's and they hiked a long as well! bouncing along... didn't corner overly well though (especially with 8000L of water on the back!!!).

Anyway, back to turbo charging vs supercharging, or what ever the topic was :redface:

the 1G-GZE is a 2L supercharged inline 6 from the early model (84-89) Toyota Soarers. so being from a 2L engine it might be a bit restrictive. Hey anythings better than nothing right???


Tim