Hi all, I started the old girl up after a few days of no use and was greeted with a horrendously loud knocking sound. I presumed this wass because there was no oil up top and the tappets were noisy. It went away after 30 seconds or so, but it also sounded 'sick'. The pulse from the exhaust was really random like it wasn't firing correctly. Is this a side effect of tappets/lifters with no oil?

Could this be incorrect oil used? I am just letting it cool down a bit before I check the dipstick level.

As long as your levels are all good and the knocking has stopped I would just take her for a little drive and see how it sounds when you come back, providing everything else goes smoothly. Could just be a bit of grit stuck somewhere having not been started for a few days.

Do you what Oil was used last??

nah, got serviced and not sure what oil was put in. Will call and ask

This happened a time or two in my TJ. after car had not been driven for a while. My theory was that a lifter/tappet (or a few) had lost pressure while car sat....... so there was slap in that part of the valve-train until engine fired and ran a bit to re-pressurise that tappet. Could also occur if a bit of grit/varnish clogs a tappet oil gallery and prevents the ¨Sealing¨ (if this was the case, you would hope the impurity would be flushed away eventually and get caught in oil filter before stuffing up something else.

I went off the parts shop and bought some magic additive ::Lifter Free:: - but problem resolved before I ever used the additive, and has not recurred. Since then, madmagna has put me onto the Penrite oils too - so they may be taking better care of the internals.

Because the tappet isn fully-charged with oil, it allows lots of ¨slop¨ in that valve, so of course the timing isnt being maintained correctly until oil pressure fills the tappet. It sounds loud, and runs shit cos teh timing isnt working right on the valves affected.

cheers elwyn, that backs up my theory :)

This happened a time or two in my TJ. after car had not been driven for a while. My theory was that a lifter/tappet (or a few) had lost pressure while car sat....... so there was slap in that part of the valve-train until engine fired and ran a bit to re-pressurise that tappet. Could also occur if a bit of grit/varnish clogs a tappet oil gallery and prevents the ¨Sealing¨ (if this was the case, you would hope the impurity would be flushed away eventually and get caught in oil filter before stuffing up something else.

I went off the parts shop and bought some magic additive ::Lifter Free:: - but problem resolved before I ever used the additive, and has not recurred. Since then, madmagna has put me onto the Penrite oils too - so they may be taking better care of the internals.

Because the tappet isn fully-charged with oil, it allows lots of ¨slop¨ in that valve, so of course the timing isnt being maintained correctly until oil pressure fills the tappet. It sounds loud, and runs shit cos teh timing isnt working right on the valves affected.

I have noisy tappets usually every morning for about 30 seconds when I start my car. I read somewhere that putting some OMEGA 907 into the engine and letting it run for 10 minutes then draining the oil completely and changing the oil filter usually does a decent job at 'helping out' with noisy tappets. I've read a lot of about oil additives but the fact that you flush this one out seems to be more convincing. Found it on another forum. Just waiting for my bottle to arrive (my cars due for a service in 1000 or so ks so I'll hold off till then).

Penrite oils, I think I'lll try that the next time I perform an oil change. Thank from me too :)

If it hasn't happened before, try changing the oil first - a good quality one with a wide range viscosity (I've been using the Penrite stuff of late and it seems pretty good - http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/motor-oil/hpr/hpr_10 )

Sounds like a classic oil starvation, and its likely a combination of poor quality/too thick oil and too long between changes. I think 10000km is only acceptable for cars doing very long distance hwy work in warm weather. Short trips in town over winter bring oil change intervals down to 4000km at most for me, and I never leave it longer than 7000km.

I change it on the oil's colour - as soon as it starts to lose any significant transparency, out it goes.

I do mainly around town driving. I used NULON FULLY SYNTHETIC 15w-50 track oil.
I get the full 15000k's out of the oil, it is still golden brown, never black or smelly and it doesnt loose much. Last change i did it at 10000k's and it had dropped from full to about 3/4 full. Excellent oil. I have never once got the tappet noise (195xxxkms) Never blow any smoke and it makes the car run smooth as silk.
I ran hpr 10, and it was good oil, But when i changed to nulon, there was a noticeable difference it the engine. It was much quiter and smoother. that was after 10000k's of the pentrite, and by then the oil was pretty well f'd, very smelly and black.
After 10000k's with the nulon, the car doesnt feel any different after an oil change because it stays clean and unburned so well.

A good fully synthetic oil in a healthy motor will go for longer its true. But it still picks up water and contaminants, and filter only picks up the big stuff (a couple of rare earth magnets from a dead hard drive attached to the oil filter is also a good policy, although watch out if it falls off and any metal particles it was holding are mobilised again...).

Mind you, I only do about 4-6000km a year anyway (the advantage of inner city life!) at most, so after year its due anyway! Makes full synthetics not worth the outlay for me. A good quality semi-synth it usually very adequate - its keeping it clean thats important.

Also be aware if the motor is a bit sludged, it will still be turning any sort of oil black swiftly for quite a while until after several changes the crap has been flushed out.

Penrite oils
:stoopid: I wont put anything else (less) in my motor. Sure at $60-odd for 5L it's rich but it's cheaper than rebuilding my motor again.

If it hasn't happened before, try changing the oil first - a good quality one with a wide range viscosity (I've been using the Penrite stuff of late and it seems pretty good - http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/motor-oil/hpr/hpr_10 )

Sounds like a classic oil starvation, and its likely a combination of poor quality/too thick oil and too long between changes. I think 10000km is only acceptable for cars doing very long distance hwy work in warm weather. Short trips in town over winter bring oil change intervals down to 4000km at most for me, and I never leave it longer than 7000km.

I change it on the oil's colour - as soon as it starts to lose any significant transparency, out it goes.

oil is changed every 5000kms. It hasn't done it since that first day so put it down to being sat in the sun for a week without being turned over.

oil is changed every 5000kms. It hasn't done it since that first day so put it down to being sat in the sun for a week without being turned over.

Well in that case have a look at what brand of oil filter was used. It may have a dodgy anti drain back valve.

funny you should mention that, the last service the garage did, they failed to install the oil filter properly and it leaked BADLY. They fixed it up though

Well in that case have a look at what brand of oil filter was used. It may have a dodgy anti drain back valve.

Interesting indeed...That affects the tappets how?

Also, NULON or Penrite seems to be the next logical question for me. Don't even know which one my mechanic puts in, have to check. Due for service in 2000ks...

Most oil filters (especially in modern cars have an internal valve in them that stops the oil in the filter and all the oil galleries after it from draining back into the sump once the engine is turned off. Ever note how long it takes for the oil light to go out on that first start up after an oil/filter change?

This is simply so when you restart the pump only has to bring pressure up, rather than fill the volume of the filter and galleries first.

The knocking was simply the tappets running "dry" until the filter had been refilled and pressure brought back up.

This is a good reason for not getting cheap filters - RYCO fall into this category now theyre made in China... :( My brothers Audi A4 had a Ryco on it and it rattled like a bastard when started from cold - proper OE quality filter fixed that.

Most oil filters (especially in modern cars have an internal valve in them that stops the oil in the filter and all the oil galleries after it from draining back into the sump once the engine is turned off. Ever note how long it takes for the oil light to go out on that first start up after an oil/filter change?

This is simply so when you restart the pump only has to bring pressure up, rather than fill the volume of the filter and galleries first.

The knocking was simply the tappets running "dry" until the filter had been refilled and pressure brought back up.

This is a good reason for not getting cheap filters - RYCO fall into this category now theyre made in China... :( My brothers Audi A4 had a Ryco on it and it rattled like a bastard when started from cold - proper OE quality filter fixed that.

Thanks, had no idea the oil filters had 'some' part to play in noisy tappets. I'll check out my next oil change. I myself only started getting noisy tappets once my car was serviced (which is a bit annoying seeing as replacement tappets are about $60 of labor per tappet :io:

Lets clear up a few myths here before people get carried away here.

Oil filters in Magna's are inverted, ie the thread is at the top so unless you park your car on its roof the oil aint going anywhere

The reason for more frequent oil changes when you do a lot of around town driving is the cold block will tend to gather more condensation than a hot engine where this evapourates (bit like a bottle of beer on a table on a hot day) now.....the issue is that fuel has Sulphur, this ends up in the crank case when combustion occures. Water on its own will not mix with oil BUT the water mixes with the sulphur it creates H2SO4, sulphuric acid, this does mix and will over time start to eat the coatings on bearings as well as other damage.

Hope this clears up a few things

now back to OP, if it was a knock, chances are it was the timing belt pre tensioner "relaxing" due to the way the engine stopped, the rear cam may have been trying to rock back and the belt backed off due to the tensioner not holding itself, this although not common does happen and I have changed a couple of these of late. if it is a 1 off, I would not really worry about it until your next belt change. If it happens again then I would look further

If it is a higher pitch tick, can be a last adjuster. Once these start this business it is a matter of time before the tick will be there for good. You can flush them to your hearts content, the noise may even go for a while but eventually come back for good.

Also, check your oil level, i have also done a few services of late where the oil level was below the dipstic, the oil in the top end was frothing as was not enough to provide good supply to the top end. Once was caught soon enough, the other was not and we had to replace all the top end gear

Whilst deferring to your much better knowledge of Magna motors, I will note the A4 filter is inverted as well. I think they can "siphon" back. Dunno - do know a new filter cured the start up rattles.

Do the V6s have the hydraulic belt tensioner? I rebuilt a Galant twin cam a few years back, and that would go very slack between the cams when turned off, but tighten immediately- I can certainly imagine a sad tensioner allowing quite a bit of flopping about until it got with the program!

First thing I checked was the oil level and it was on maximum. Has been a one-off so far and have done 500k's since it first happened and it hasn't missed a beat. In fact, it is running brilliantly at the moment

Oil filters in Magna's are inverted, ie the thread is at the top so unless you park your car on its roof the oil aint going anywhere

Go get a bit of polly and put a nice S bend in it to represent an oil filter (one line going up and one going down), fill the whole system with water by holding your hand on the bottom pipe, let go and see what happens.

Then put a one way valve in the S bend and try again, your shoes wont get as wet this time/stay dry if the tube is small enough.

I assume either me or you is tired.

Whilst deferring to your much better knowledge of Magna motors, I will note the A4 filter is inverted as well. I think they can "siphon" back. Dunno - do know a new filter cured the start up rattles.

Do the V6s have the hydraulic belt tensioner? I rebuilt a Galant twin cam a few years back, and that would go very slack between the cams when turned off, but tighten immediately- I can certainly imagine a sad tensioner allowing quite a bit of flopping about until it got with the program!

Yes the V6s do have a hydraulic tensioner. Had mine replaced due to its failing to set the 'tension' right as it should normally.

Go get a bit of polly and put a nice S bend in it to represent an oil filter (one line going up and one going down), fill the whole system with water by holding your hand on the bottom pipe, let go and see what happens.

Then put a one way valve in the S bend and try again, your shoes wont get as wet this time/stay dry if the tube is small enough.

I assume either me or you is tired.

Sorry bud, wrong again

Get your car when you do the next service, undo the filter a turn or two (even if left a few days) and look at how much oil you get out

The difference is that the pipe has an open end, the oil system does not in the same effect as ewll as the fact that the oil filter is low on the engine, if fact most of it is lower than the oil level

Some of the older cars such as the Astron have a filter higher up and can drain back, a 6G motor does not and can not

Sorry bud, wrong again

Get your car when you do the next service, undo the filter a turn or two (even if left a few days) and look at how much oil you get out

The difference is that the pipe has an open end, the oil system does not in the same effect as ewll as the fact that the oil filter is low on the engine, if fact most of it is lower than the oil level

Some of the older cars such as the Astron have a filter higher up and can drain back, a 6G motor does not and can not

Ok most of that was a bit hard to follow, anyway. The oil will slowly run back down into the sump, it's not going to be strait away but you can hear it's effects happening every time you start the car in the morning.


EDIT: When my car was running a ACDelco filter it was quiet on start up, soon as I switch to a ryco I got start up noise for about 10-30 seconds.

Sorry but you can get an engine that has been off for a long time and it will still be full of oil so no most of the oil will not run back into the sump

As an example, I have stripped engines I have had on engine stands for several months, with a host of filters, and on all occasions just cracking the seal of the filter has caused oil to run over the edge of the filter showing that oil is still there

Oil if it is to run back into the sump would only run back to match the level of the oil in the sump

Now in the above example if you are talking about your old astron then I can see where you are coming from, if you are talking about the Verada then there is another issue

Oh and BTW< the AC Delco filter, z456 is a multifit with the z411, the 411 has a lot lower bypass pressure thus why I only use the genuine filters these days. AC delco are made in the same factory now as FSA and all the brands that FSA put out.

Sorry but you can get an engine that has been off for a long time and it will still be full of oil so no most of the oil will not run back into the sump

As an example, I have stripped engines I have had on engine stands for several months, with a host of filters, and on all occasions just cracking the seal of the filter has caused oil to run over the edge of the filter showing that oil is still there

With the filter being almost level to the sump then sure there is going to be oil in it, but what about the top end and everything above the sump and filter?

Everything above will have oil in it still as the clearances will not allow drain back as such, a valve will do nothing at all to prevent this anyway as any oil will seep out from the oiled areas. remember that there is a gap as such around all componants and the oil is there to stop metal on metal contact

All engines will have most oil run back to the sump over night however just like when a new engine is built, all surfaces still have a coating of oil which is more than sufficient for the initial 2 or 3 seconds until oil pressure has built up. Magna's also do benefit from a fairly high volume oil pump

Hey mal, whats your opinion on Fram Extra guard oil filters? i use fram oil and air filters always, and the oil never gets black , just a dark golden brown over 5000 kms (7500kms last time) although the engine is a recon unit 32000km old. I always use Castrol Edge 5-30W and it will only drop about 2mm on the dipstick from full over the 5000km.

i am assuming that your engine is not f/i, but 5/30 is very thin oil for our motors. The recommended is 10w 40 in very cold regions. 15w 50 in warmer regions.

Hey mal, whats your opinion on Fram Extra guard oil filters? i use fram oil and air filters always, and the oil never gets black , just a dark golden brown over 5000 kms (7500kms last time) although the engine is a recon unit 32000km old. I always use Castrol Edge 5-30W and it will only drop about 2mm on the dipstick from full over the 5000km.

Finally the queston I was hoping to hear. Due for an oil filter change myself. I want to try something different to the one I have now (I get about 1 min worth of rattling every morning then non for the rest of the day). Recently put in Castrol EDGE sport 25w-50 , not sure if that oil is good for cars like the Magnas. On my next Oil change I want to try NULON or Penrite (seem to be the only two oils mentioned with accolade on these forums) but I have no idea which one is best for the Magnas, anyone shed light on this?

id be goiing nulon 15w 50 (fully synth, about $60), or penrite hpr 10 (semi synth, (about $55))
Stick with the OEM mitsu filter, or whaterver the mitsu dealer supplies you with. I have heard alot of bad word about ryco, but never had a bad experience.
I never ever ever get a rattly start on my car, and its just about to pass the 195xxx mark. I use nulon 15w-50 track oil, and mitsu or ryco filter (like madmgana said, you can get 6 of the mitsu ones at a discount price but i have used/given all mine away so i am using a ryco atm) i get 15000 kms out of my nulon, still looks beautiful, i normally try to change at 10000k's though. At about 150xxx k's, i changed from castrol edge 10w - 60 i used 60 weight in cairn because it is never cold, fml, BUT it would only last like 7500 - 12000 k's (and by then it was had it), so i flushed it with cheap oil and nulon oil flush, and the cheap oil came out kinda like tar after about 100 km, After that i only run nulon 15w 50 track oil and i will never turn back. A++ oil. oil always comes out not too much worse than how it went in.

id be goiing nulon 15w 50 (fully synth, about $60), or penrite hpr 10 (semi synth, (about $55))
Stick with the OEM mitsu filter, or whaterver the mitsu dealer supplies you with. I have heard alot of bad word about ryco, but never had a bad experience.
I never ever ever get a rattly start on my car, and its just about to pass the 195xxx mark...

Wow I wish I was in your shoes, my cars only done 166,000 and the lifters play up for about 1 min every morning and then the engine quiets down so magnificently I can hardly hear it idling. Funny enough it ONLY happened a month or so after the car was serviced, oil leaks sealed (apparently) and a host of other issues. I've been told to try put OMEGA 907, leave the car running for 10 minutes, then flush it out and change oil + filter. Will try that and see how it goes

yeah, i have my doubts about those magic additives, that fix everything, If you do a full engine flush with cheap oil, replace lifters and fill up with either of the above oils, it will idels soooo smooth. (thats if it is the lifters making the noise)

hey guys, my local SCA has Penrite's entire range of oils. I am going to get a genuine oil filter from mitsu tomorrow, but need to know which is most suitable Penrite?

I am guesing HPR15 semi synth 10w-40? Its only $40 for 5ltrs which seems good price too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure you want a fully synthetic.

hey guys, my local SCA has Penrite's entire range of oils. I am going to get a genuine oil filter from mitsu tomorrow, but need to know which is most suitable Penrite?

I am guesing HPR15 semi synth 10w-40? Its only $40 for 5ltrs which seems good price too.

Actually they dont. Autobarn carry all the "syn" range of oils which are fully syn.

I got the 15w-70 fully syn which was about $74

;1202811']Actually they dont. Autobarn carry all the "syn" range of oils which are fully syn.

I got the 15w-70 fully syn which was about $74

In the thread "noisy lifters" Madmagna suggested Penrite HPR10 (10W-50), if i'm not mistaking, that's semi synthetic oil? Similar question to what I asked in the previous, what are the advantages and dis-advantages of using semi or fully synthetic?

Oh and how much are the genuine Mitsu oil filters priced at?

In the threat "noisy lifters" Madmagna suggested Penrite HPR10, if im not mistaking thats semi synthetic oil? Similar question to what I asked in the previous, what are the advantages and dis-advantages of using semi or fully synthetic?

Oh and how much are the genuine Mitsu oil filters priced at?

Genuine filters are around the $16-$20 IIRC

Correct HPR10 is a Semi-Syn, Pretty sure advantages and disadvantages can be found by google :)

Considering 5/30W is the factory fill and my engine was fully recon 32,000 kms ago i use 5/30w castrol. I use none between changes, moves about 2mm, im not kidding. Plus ive used the castrol edge last 3 changes and get the best fuel economy out of it. i have considered using the mitsi stuff available at the dealers. 25/50W seems far to heavy to me unless you have worn rings.
oh heres a pic of my oil, Castrol Edge 5/30W at 4900kms since last change:
http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv302/robssei/Image0728.jpg

the castrol i used was 10 - 60, it was not too good,
my nulon oil looks better than that (you can barely tell its on the stick) at 5000 k's and it looks like that after 12500 k's.
how often do you change your oil? if its every 5000 it should use sfa on a motor that new.
my car used about 4mm after 12500 on the first service i did using nulon.
and like you said 25w oil is very thick for a new motor.
i cant believe that they use a 5w 30 for our motors from factory, as it says in my manual that 10 is the lowest you should go.

also tufftr, wouldnt the 15w 70 be terrible in colder weather making the oil too thick to flow through all the caplilaries easily, the manual and Mitsubishi service recommend lighter cold temp oils in cold climates. more like a 10w - 40

The SCA has loads of Nulon too. Might check their 10w-40

Actually you all use oil between changes the difference is mineral oil will absorb moisture where as full synth will not so you actually appear to use no or little oil. The full synth will drop faster on the dipstich than non synth for this reason

As for oil, I will only use Penrite, I use generally HPR15 however sometimes use 10 if the 15 is not avail. Unless you live in the artic you will have no issues with HPR15 even when cold

The SCA has loads of Nulon too. Might check their 10w-40

ive been told that is a good oil. i went for the 15w purely because its what the book says.

on the comment of the full synth dropping more, the edge 5/30w i use is Full synthetic and it drops from the bottom of the full mark to 2mm down. i always check in morning. definitely doesnt use more than that over 5000kms. I thought the label under my bonnet said 5/30W but i was wrong, just has the part number JCMZ100001 for the 4l pack. Im sure the pack ive seen at the dealer was 5/30w

ive been told that is a good oil. i went for the 15w purely because its what the book says.

Yup PENRITE HPR15 is 15W - 50 (which is in the manual, just checked that) so I'm putting that into my engine tomorrow after my major service, also called my mechanic to tell him to USE only Genuine Mitsu Oil & Fuel Filters. Tried to convince me they wouldn't make a difference. I think I'll be the judge of that. And the debate continues lol

EDIT: 19 FEB 2010

Hey guys, sorry to bump up an old thread with information that you probably know, but I think its worth sharing for everyone who comes across some sort of 'tapping' noise in the mornings. After all we are here to share our experiences and help come out with problems + provide solutions :)

Straight to the point. I finally pulled by car for a Major service and specifically asked for genuine filters (oil + fuel + air) as well as Penrite HPR15 [15w-40]. When I asked the mechanic what type of oil filters they used before he said RYCO and I remembered Renomans post (see below)...


This is a good reason for not getting cheap filters - RYCO fall into this category now theyre made in China... My brothers Audi A4 had a Ryco on it and it rattled like a bastard when started from cold - proper OE quality filter fixed that.

I also bought some OMEGA907 Engine Flush (read that in another Mitsubishi forum for tapping noises), was very skeptic but tried it anyways. I let the car run for 10mins before the mechanic changed the oil and put the Penrite and gen filters in.

Left the car overnight and ran it for 5mins on idle just then and to my amazement NO TAPPING NOISE AT ALL! :facejump: Obviously the cold engine syndrome was there (slightly higher rev until normal operating temp but thats normal). Not sure whether it was the engine flush I used (had to get it from NSW, not available in W.A) or changing to the gen filters or even incompatible oil. But if you do have tapping noises, try what I did on your next service and maybe you might have a bit of luck! Certainly a lot cheaper than replacing tappets or lifters. Might be a temp fix but its good enough for now :)