Hello all,

My eagerly awaited registration has just been approved, thank you to the administrators.

I have a serious lack of power and accelerator lag with my 98 KF Verada that I believe might be a timing issue. I have checked my timing belt, fuel filter, air filter, plugs and leads and I’m really out of ideas. I don’t have any diagnostic errors from the ECU, but a timing light shows ignition about 5 deg after TDC. The car runs OK but has no power, and when accelerating lags and surges. I have taken it two Mitsubishi service centers without resolution. Can anyone offer any advice?

I have included an extended version for those with the patience to read it below. Sorry if it is a bit long winded.

About two months ago I was a bit concerned about how loose the timing belt was when the car was stopped so I removed the covers to have a closer look. I removed the drive belts alternator and balancer. I wanted to have a look at the action of the hydraulic tensioner so tried to start the car and found it wouldn’t run. I put the balancer/drive pulley back on and it started, so I assume that the crank angle sensor works off the drive pulley. In any case I decided that the hydraulic tensioner seemed to be operating OK as the belt seemed to tighten up when in operation and I put everything back together.

Ever since then though things have been going wrong!

First thing I noticed was that my idle speed had dropped. Fair enough, I had the battery disconnected and the ECU was probably reset so I let it run for a while and then took it for a drive. No power! My car now drives like a four cylinder. I assumed I’d somehow slipped a tooth on the timing belt so took off the covers and rechecked, triple checked and got a mate to check and everything lines up.

So maybe it was just a coincidence and there is another problem. I have since then changed spark plugs, leads, fuel filter, air filter all to no avail. I put a timing light on and the idle timing is indicating 5 deg after TDC. I couldn’t understand this so in frustration took it to my Mitsubishi service center. After explaining that I believed I had a timing issue they came back saying that everything looked OK but that I had dirty fuel and quote for $600 to change the fuel filter and pump filter sock. A little dubious and more than shocked at the quote I took the car and put in another fuel filter. The old one looked OK to me.

I drove down the road to another Mitsubishi service center and this time stated to the service attendant I wanted a wave pattern check for the crank angle sensor, cam shaft sensor and a timing check. On picking up the car I was told that nothing could be found. I asked to speak to the mechanic and he confirmed that the car didn’t drive like a V6 but basic diagnostics hadn’t showed anything. He suggested I check my timing belt. Wtf, what had these guys done? Apparently they’d hooked up the diagnostic computer and ‘computer says no’. They didn’t have the harnesses to do the wave pattern check that I’d asked for.

So that’s my story to date. I have found an EFI specialist who sounds like he might know what he’s talking about so I will try there next.

Thanks for reading.

Do your timing marks line up? Just doesn't say you've checked there, manually turn the crank until the cam sprocket marks line up with arrows on the rocker cover (not 100% on 3rd gens but that's how it is on 2nd gen V6's and Twin cams)

If the tensioner doesn't hold tension after the car is off it is faulty. Supposed to hold tension for a certain amount of time and when it backs off it's not supposed to be much.

Don't want the timing belt to be too far off with the Magna's, it can mean bye-bye engine :S

Ignition timing 5 degrees AFTER top dead centre? Is this normal? The second gen runs 13 degrees BEFORE top dead centre, when you do the timing!

Somebody flame me if I'm wrong, but I think you need to set up the CAS as per manual!


Nope, just checked manual - timing should be 10 or 15 degrees BEFORE TDC, depending on the engine.
Cut & paste from manual: Approx. 15
BTDC <6G72>, 10
BTDC <6G74>

this is way out, it should be 10 to 15 degrees before top dead center. this is a problem with your ignition timing. first make sure that when you used the timing light, i was on the number 1 lead. I would do an engine reset (probably wont help, but it might if your lucky.), then i would go about checking and replacing the crank angle sensor. Check you distributor cap. failing that, it would most likely be an ecu issue.
(Of course all of this is going by the fact that it is sparking 5 degrees after tdc and everything lines up)
It has to be something electronic, unless the actual harmonic balance has twisted on the spline.

I would say you have jumped a tooth on the bottom pulley when you were frigging around with it

Remove both top covers, line up TDC on the bottom and check your top marks are in line

If the belt is loose, can also be a stretched belt, may not be your tensioner at all. This is common with stretched belts, I see it all the time with the older ones

Remember, if your belt is out a tooth, you will lose timing as well as you have a cam sensor in the dist as well as a crank sensor on the crank shaft thus the 2 will not be matched up.

it could be that the heater core is leaking onto the ecu, check for wet patches around the passenger side carpet

also, i have never heard of a CAM angle sensor on a 3rd gen, im not saying there isnt one, but i would like to know for certain, and where abouts is it.

it could be that the heater core is leaking onto the ecu, check for wet patches around the passenger side carpet

also, i have never heard of a CAM angle sensor on a 3rd gen, im not saying there isnt one, but i would like to know for certain, and where abouts is it.

Going by what Madmagna said, It's in the dizzy itself.

I doubt its ECU related as he's had a play around (looked whatever) at the timing belt area. if its jumped a tooth It'll do EXACTLY this.

Timing appears to be 15° out based on your previous posts.

Surprise, 1 tooth error on the timing belt is also around 15°.


Yes do a quick search for cam timing, can belt replacement.
There was a recent post to a USA forum that shows the timing marks clearly as part of the belt replacement process...Here tis....

http://www.club3g.com/forum/maintenance/118492-how-change-timing-belt-v6-pictures.html


If you are going to remove the belt for any reason then take the opportunity to open up the dowel locator slots on the can gears to advance the cams.

I did this about 10 days ago. Now like the brown sticky stuff off a very highly polished shovel!!


Hope that this helps
Gerry

i think that if the belt skipped one tooth it wouldnt do this. Its like saying that everyone who has (stupidly) advanced there cam 1 tooth forward will retard their timing by 7.5 degrees.
i am also basing my guess on this

I assumed I’d somehow slipped a tooth on the timing belt so took off the covers and rechecked, triple checked and got a mate to check and everything lines up
if this statement is incorrect, it probably is the timing belt. but like i said, why doesnt it stuff the timing up like this when people advance their cams by 1 degree?

and another thing, bcause it is eci, the car will only spark if it thinks it is at 10 degrees btdc, so their is obviously something wrong that is telling the ecu that it is at 10 degrees btdc, so it must either be the CAS or the cam A.S.. and assuming like he said, that everything lines up, that brings the conclusion that it is either of the thinngs in my first post.

Could of skipped on the crank dude. Placing both cams out. may look fine from up the top but may be 1 tooth out at the crank.

;1216559']Could of skipped on the crank dude. Placing both cams out. may look fine from up the top but may be 1 tooth out at the crank.

yep, check that agent, im pretty sure he said he checked it though.and thats what im saying, why doesnt it read out 7.5 degrees when people skip there cams foward 1 tooth deliberately?

Simple, because it has skipped a crank tooth 1 TOOTH BACK

I have had cars brought to me in the past with the exact symptoms above and this has been the issue

if it has skipped one tooth back, that would make it read 25 btdc wouldnt it?

diagram i prepared earlier:
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/bellto/Untitled-6.jpg

i get what your saying though, but he said clearly that it was all checked? thats why i am guessing at what else it could be.

mot that is dont believe what you guys are all saying, but i am still unclear on how it is reading out by 15 degrees, because it doesnt read out at all when you turn both cams by one tooth (which is actually half as far at the crank.) so turning the cam 1 tooth forward is the exact same thing a turning the crank 1/2 teeth backwards which by everyone's reasoning, it should make the timing 7.5 degrees retarded.

1 tooth on the cam isnt the same as one tooth, on the crank.

Best way to check, line the balancer mark up with tdc on the cover, take front and back cam gear covers off, (the back is a bit of a prick, i just usually loosen and pull it back enought to see) the cam gears will be aligned to the cam marks.

Thank you Rhino, this is exactly what I stated to begin with

If the crank has jumped a tooth, the timing will be retarded. Lets face it, idle is low, power is non existant. Classic symptoms of retarded cam timing.

Lets now wait for the Op to actually check as Rhino and I have stated and come back to us

ffs, he clearly states that he checked it.

First thing I noticed was that my idle speed had dropped. Fair enough, I had the battery disconnected and the ECU was probably reset so I let it run for a while and then took it for a drive. No power! My car now drives like a four cylinder. I assumed I’d somehow slipped a tooth on the timing belt so took off the covers and rechecked, triple checked and got a mate to check and everything lines up.

He said he took the main pulley off and it wouldnt run, due to the crank angle sensor. but doesnt the crank angle sensor read off the timing belt pulley, not the main pulley? did he remove the cambelt pulley, or JUST the main pulley/harmonic balancer.

He said he took the main pulley off and it wouldnt run, due to the crank angle sensor. but doesnt the crank angle sensor read off the timing belt pulley, not the main pulley? did he remove the cambelt pulley, or JUST the main pulley/harmonic balancer.

from what i gather, he didnt touch the timing belt, only the harmonic balancer. the cas runs off the spline and cog on the crank shaft.
maybey agent didnt route the cas wire properly, and it is damaged or shorting. (i know the car wont run with it cut)

ffs, he clearly states that he checked it.

mate,
Give it a rest bud. He states he took off the covers, this indicates he checked the cams lined up but did he just wind over to the marks or did he check them with the crank on TDC???

Yes, the CAS is located behind the crank timing belt pulley, if the car would not run he either unplugged that or he took that pulley off thus there is even more chance he put it back a tooth out as well!

Thought so!!

Guys,

Thanks for all the feedback! Some things to think about and a few more things to check. Just to clarify I did check the timing marks marks by taking of the top cam cog covers and turning the engine slowly forward by hand until TDC lined up on the Harmonic Balancer, both cams also line up at this point. I never did take off the timing belt or spline gear off the crank shaft, only the harmonic balancer, but I did back off the tensioner which is where I thought I might have slipped the tooth. Of most interest to me at the moment is that the CAS is off the crank spline (which I wasn't sure about) so as soon as I have the time I'll go back in and have another look. I don't know why refitting the harmonic balancer should have made a difference in that case and I'm starting to think maybe the CAS is loose or something. As soon as I get the time next week I will have another look.

As soon as I know what the problem is I will replace the timing belt and tensioner just to be sure, but I don't want to waste time and expense if there is any chance it's the ECU.

Ok, you have just told me what is wrong then

The CAS plate needs to be located on a pin on the crank spline,. if this has come off the chances are it is located in the wrong place, I am in fact surprised the engine even runs

YOu need to remove the belt, the gear etc, re attach correctly and re assemble

Now, you will need to get or make yourself a proper belt tensioning tool and ensure it is done properly, if you get the tension wrong big damage can be done

if the CAS Is loose the chopper disc would of certainly made a mess of it by now I would of thought.

i had the chopper disc come off the back of the crank sprocket once , silly me did not remove the CAS before attempting to remove the crank sprocket.

No, the CAS is fine. Probably intact and in the right place. It is the chopper plate that has moved. If you have tightened the harmonic balancer bolt to specs you will have damaged the chopper plate as the pin tried to punch a new hole in it.

Spot on Madmax!! I finally got around to pulling my car apart again and exactly as Madmax had pointed out, when I had tightened up my dynamic balancer I had neglected to check the chopper plate hadn't moved. I was suspicious of the CAS in the first place and should have checked, but I had thought that my Mitsubishi service centre could have picked up a timing light and diagnosed the problem.

Anyway, I've drilled out the old roll pins and I'm off to pick up new pins and timming belt kit.

Thanks again to all who posted!

Good to hear is diagnosed

You may be best off going to a wrecker and just grab one from a wreck as will be complete and not damaged