Hey just thinking about the guys who get a tune for 98 etc. Has anyone tried using the distributer adjustment to give spark advance as a knocksensor would (although it would be more accurate and adjust in realtime)? I was going to do this as im getting a timing light anyway to to check base timing, and thought a little experimentation could be in order. I used to always do it to my old carby cars to get a little extra kick lol. just wondering if anyone else has tried it and to what success.

nope, wont work.
firstly, there is no adjustment in the dissy cap, (there is an elongated hole on one bolt, but not the other)
Also, the spark relies on where the crank and cam are, nothing to do with the dizzy, (ie, the eci will automatically fix any adjustments you make)
also
if you pull the dizzy cap off, you will see the armature has a very small contact point but the pickups for the leads are alot longer. this is to allow for indescrepencies in timing.

Some have moved the CAS plate but I would not recommend this unless you know what you are doing.

Also is not easy to alter later if needed

If you want to alter timing, you will need to get into the ROM and make your adjustments there

Ok yeah thought so, although bellto there is adjustment on the dizzy as in the workshop manual it describes adjusting this if spark timing is out. there is only a small amount of adjustment though, the bolt covers the space allowed which is why it appears there is no room for movement. Also the spark relies on where the rotor makes contact with the electrode, i cant see anyway the ecu could alter this physical change . you turn the cap and the plug will fire slightly later as the rotor hits the point later than it did in relation to cam timing etc. the crank angle sensor plays its part but i still dont see how if the ecu noticed the difference in spark timing, it would be able to bring that spark timing back to standard.

Ok yeah thought so, although bellto there is adjustment on the dizzy as in the workshop manual it describes adjusting this if spark timing is out. there is only a small amount of adjustment though, the bolt covers the space allowed which is why it appears there is no room for movement. Also the spark relies on where the rotor makes contact with the electrode, i cant see anyway the ecu could alter this physical change . you turn the cap and the plug will fire slightly later as the rotor hits the point later than it did in relation to cam timing etc. the crank angle sensor plays its part but i still dont see how if the ecu noticed the difference in spark timing, it would be able to bring that spark timing back to standard.

no, it doesn't "notice" a change in spark timing, it just sparks when the cas and the camas tell it to. it tries to spark regardless of whether or not the rotor is in contact with the pickup. I removed my distributor to do the seal, i re drilled the other hole for the bolt (making it almost as big as the big one) and spun it both ways, and there is no difference. i could sit there with the motor running, and twist it left and right but the timing wouldn't change. this is why the engine is called ECI, electronic controlled ignition.
and for the record, the other hole is so small it is not worth moving it.

(VERY basically) the computer will tell a pulse to run down the rotor of the dizzy, and onto the pickup, whether the dizzy arm is on the pickup, or somewhere else because it has been moved. so it will always spark at 15 degrees btdc, but it will just hit a different spot on the pickup. the reason the pickups on the dizzy caps are longer, is to allow for discrepancies in timing and movement in the dizzy.

this is how cars with knock sensors adjust timing to achieve better performance out of higher octane fuels. the spark will be told to go sooner, so it will advance the ignition timing. (not to be mistaken for cam timing)

On our 09 crv vtec, to change the timing, you need to put a paper clip in 2 of the holes of the computer cable under the dash which puts it into adjusting mode, then loosen the dizzy and twist it, then take the clips out and leave the dizzy in this spot. this will give the computer the new base line. and it will always spark where you tell it. It can be changed from 5 to 22 btdc.

Ok yeah thought so, although bellto there is adjustment on the dizzy as in the workshop manual it describes adjusting this if spark timing is out. there is only a small amount of adjustment though, the bolt covers the space allowed which is why it appears there is no room for movement. Also the spark relies on where the rotor makes contact with the electrode, i cant see anyway the ecu could alter this physical change . you turn the cap and the plug will fire slightly later as the rotor hits the point later than it did in relation to cam timing etc. the crank angle sensor plays its part but i still dont see how if the ecu noticed the difference in spark timing, it would be able to bring that spark timing back to standard.

No, completely wrong bud

As I stated, YOU CAN NOT ALTER THE TIMING WITH THE DIST< is simple, factual and that is about it

You can turn it all you want to but the timing is controlled by the ignition module telling the coil to fire, this is nto done by a dist cap, leads or the flux capacitor

The CAS controls the ignition timing, the dist does have a cam angel sensor in it, you mess with the dist, you mess with the cam angle sensor and you end up throwing your injector timing out

I would recommend you throw that so called manual out or better still make sure is for a third gen magna and not a TP or something similar lol

Strange mix, having CAS for ignition timing but having a distributor as well - why didn't Mitsu go for the CAS + coil pack as per Lancer or (shudder) Commodore? And MadMagna is right, the flux capacitor on the Magna does NOT control spark timing!

HINT: Don't mess with it if you don't know how it works!

Strange mix, having CAS for ignition timing but having a distributor as well - why didn't Mitsu go for the CAS + coil pack as per Lancer or (shudder) Commodore? And MadMagna is right, the flux capacitor on the Magna does NOT control spark timing!

HINT: Don't mess with it if you don't know how it works!

Cheaper to implement a Dizzy than coil on plug at the time. The 380 uses coil on plug.

Strange mix, having CAS for ignition timing but having a distributor as well - why didn't Mitsu go for the CAS + coil pack as per Lancer or (shudder) Commodore? And MadMagna is right, the flux capacitor on the Magna does NOT control spark timing!

HINT: Don't mess with it if you don't know how it works!

cough cough, i said it first. lol:happy:

Cheaper to implement a Dizzy than coil on plug at the time. The 380 uses coil on plug.

Not C.O.P, Coil packs, as per what the Early 2L DOHC V6 galants and 3L DOHC 3000GT's use. Tis strange but there must of been a good reason to use it.

arent coil packs are used in "waste spark" ignitions as a form of emission control

No, completely wrong bud

As I stated, YOU CAN NOT ALTER THE TIMING WITH THE DIST< is simple, factual and that is about it

You can turn it all you want to but the timing is controlled by the ignition module telling the coil to fire, this is nto done by a dist cap, leads or the flux capacitor

The CAS controls the ignition timing, the dist does have a cam angel sensor in it, you mess with the dist, you mess with the cam angle sensor and you end up throwing your injector timing out

I would recommend you throw that so called manual out or better still make sure is for a third gen magna and not a TP or something similar lol



EVEN say's under bonnet ( NON ADJUSTABLE ) !!!!!!!

As said, can only be adjusted in the ECU map.

Even if you could just change the timing a few degrees, it would make it +1 degrees everywhere which probably isn't the best idea for economy or power.

Ok thats fine, i know how it all works and had always thought what you had explained, its just the max ellery manual says this adjustment can be made and i wanted to know what everyones opinions where. The Haynes manual states that it cannot be adjusted apart from ecu. It is strange to have a dizzy on ECI system i think, if the japspec versions can get coil on plug, why not the aussie ones? bloody mitsi!!

arent coil packs are used in "waste spark" ignitions as a form of emission control

Double ended coil fires two plugs at once, one plug at the top of the compression stroke (useful) and another at the top of the exhaust stroke (not useful), it simply means that you only need 3 coils for a v6, with short leads to the relevant plugs. Not an emission control feature. The 2.0L Lancer has 2 coils sitting on 2 of the plugs, with short leads to the other plugs.

. . . its just the max ellery manual says this adjustment can be made . . . .

Perhaps you can quote or scan the exact text in the Max Ellery manual, so we can see that it actually means "you can adjust the ignition timing with the distributor adjustment"?

here is the direct quote:
TE/TJ; 1) Ensure engine is switched off then, using a jumper lead, connect terminal 1 of the ignition timing adjustment connecter to earth.
2) use timing light to check timing.
3) If ignition timing is incorrect, loosen distributor nuts, turn distributor to achieve correct ignition timing, tighten nuts.
4) disconnect the jumper lead
5)recheck ignition timing -15 degrees BTDC

Thats the whole lot for TE-TJ as per max ellerys manual

Well, that's exactly how its done on a TS 2.6 or 3.0L, but neither have a CAS. I believe that the manual is in error, or that Max Ellery is in some ways technologically challenged! Possibly this manual is an update of an earlier one for the second gen cars, and this bit was not updated. Easy to do.

the manual covers magna/verada 1991-2005 TR/TS TE/TF TH/TJ TL/TW it has the method for the secondgens and then as i put under the TE/TW. but yes must be an oversight. I do like the manual as its the only one ive seen that includes a full teardown and measurements,values etc for the Automatic transmissions.

looks more like a tune up guide, just to make sure everything is right.

No it states that this will change the base timing setting.

well its wrong. you can get timing interceptors from jaycay with a digital controller for around 150, this would be good to play with i reckon.

Broad range timing adjustments could be dangerous, the best way to do it is to get your ECU re tuned, I should be able to do the basics in a few weeks time.

Broad range timing adjustments could be dangerous, the best way to do it is to get your ECU re tuned, I should be able to do the basics in a few weeks time.

obviously you wouldnt muck with it if you didnt know,
how much will you be charging for a 95 tune?
and can you do the te and tf ecu's?
cheers

Just a word of warning, DO NOT TOUCH your tune unless you have some experience in the complete running of the vehicle including the dangers of advancing your timing, the temps involved, the dangers of detonation, the ability to detect detination and a good dyno (and know how to use it)

It is one thing getting a tune from someone else and trying it out but it is a very different thing to try and make your own. Remember one mistake can be very expensive

Not sure on any details yet, not even sure if it will go ahead.

But if I am it will be for the benefit of the club, not more than $50 and there will be a donation.


Just a word of warning, DO NOT TOUCH your tune unless you have some experience in the complete running of the vehicle including the dangers of advancing your timing, the temps involved, the dangers of detonation, the ability to detect detination and a good dyno (and know how to use it)

It is one thing getting a tune from someone else and trying it out but it is a very different thing to try and make your own. Remember one mistake can be very expensive

Exactly what he said, would probably only be the base ralliart tune.

Timing difference varies depending on the RPM and also Load (TPS). Theoretically: turning your dizzy to gain more advance on the timing or using a trick to manipulate CAS would not be the best tune as yet at all. I recommend you get an Interceptor ECU and related S/W and learn to do this stuff, quite interesting.
To answer the question relating to timing difference between 91 and 95 oct, the answer is partly above but we are looking at 2-4 deg more advance accross the RPM/Load range. With 98 oct it's bit more. But, this also depends on the Dyno Tuner guy, how brave he might be hehe.

Ok thats fine, i know how it all works and had always thought what you had explained, its just the max ellery manual says this adjustment can be made and i wanted to know what everyones opinions where. The Haynes manual states that it cannot be adjusted apart from ecu. It is strange to have a dizzy on ECI system i think, if the japspec versions can get coil on plug, why not the aussie ones? bloody mitsi!!

its not strange, a distributor setup is cheaper than coil packs so that is probably a big reason. Many older/cheaper euro engines were like this. Although pretty much phased out now

my import Delica ( sold in Japan 8/94 ) has coil packs , exactly like the 1997 Triton and Challenger we have here. same 24v 6G72 engine . on the Delica if they had fitted a dizzy it would have been pointing at the firewall and impossible to get to.
as far as i know the Delica runs a different ECU to our 2000 Magna.

Delicas have the same CAS and the Cam sensor is mounted on a pair of lugs cast into the left hand head.