Whats the difference between a front strut brace, and a front sway bar?
i have just bought a rear sway bar from whiteline (the replacement for the factory item) and noticed a definate difference in the handling of my beast.. now im interested in doing something to the front because the rear feels firm but the front feels flabby ;)

whats the point of each and what will they do to the handling of the car?

if you think the back is good, wait till you get a front strut brace!! fanfurking tastic!!! :D

hehe cool - so should i just get the strut brace?

Yes :)

Upgrading the front swaybar will increase the bias towards understeer (assuming you upgraded the rear bar to a larger diameter). A strut brace just keeps the front wheels aligned a bit better when hard cornering.

OK - so explain this to the dumbarse - understeer is when you are cornering hard, and the car isnt turning as much as what you want it to? ie - sliding instead of turning? i noticed that when the rear swaybar went on it has increased this heaps (although it might get better when i get some tread on my tyres !! ;) )

so if it understeers too much now i dont wanna increase that - right?
i think ill get the strut brace...

Yes. Go the strut brace. Reduces torque steer and sharpens handling.

I've done the back sway, strut brace and have put in lovells lows and the car is on rails.

I'm looking at upgrading rims to 17" and that'll improve handling again. I would then look at the front sway only once that was done.

OK - so explain this to the dumbarse - understeer is when you are cornering hard, and the car isnt turning as much as what you want it to? ie - sliding instead of turning? i noticed that when the rear swaybar went on it has increased this heaps (although it might get better when i get some tread on my tyres !! ;) )

so if it understeers too much now i dont wanna increase that - right?
i think ill get the strut brace...

Yes, understeer means your car tends goes off on a tangent on a corner.

I've read that if you can swap your front sway bar for a solid instead of the standard hollow bar, but maintain the same diameter. I've read that this sharpens handling, but does it change the understeer/oversteer characteristic of the car?

Excellent - thanks guys you have cleared it all up for me
Ill grab a strut brace soon and whack it on :)

When you fitted the rear swaybar (providing it's thicker than the old one) it should decrease understeer, not the other way around (check fitment/adjustment as necessary). If you upgrade the front swaybar to a thicker one it will increase understeer.

Going from a hollow to a solid bar (same thickness) gives better response for quick change of direction in the car, it doesn't increase the stiffness - that's determined by bar diameter. A strut brace also isn't going to reduce torque steer; that's a characteristic of FWDs with uneven length driveshafts.

Just wondering if puttin these braces on the car is worthwhile without having the car lowered ie will it make any difference to the handling as the car s not lowered or is it a waste of time without lowering the car?

Just wondering if puttin these braces on the car is worthwhile without having the car lowered ie will it make any difference to the handling as the car s not lowered or is it a waste of time without lowering the car?

Yes. I put on the rear sway (note, not rear strut as in your title) and front strut brace before I lowered my car. It improved handling heaps and it felt less boat like. Lowering it adds that extra degree of handling and makes it feel like its on rails. The most significant improvement to handling was from my rear sway bar.

So your telling me that standard the Veradas dont have a sway bar-damn. How much is it to get one, where from and how hard to fit. Any help much appreciated.

Just a tad over 200 for whiteline model, self install. The kit comes with a picture to show how to install it. As there are not written instructions and as the pic is in black and white it takes a little while to suss it out - but its not hard provided you take it slow and suss it all out before you start. You will need a set of jackstands or a ramps to lift the rear up.

Just a tad over 200 for whiteline model, self install. The kit comes with a picture to show how to install it. As there are not written instructions and as the pic is in black and white it takes a little while to suss it out - but its not hard provided you take it slow and suss it all out before you start. You will need a set of jackstands or a ramps to lift the rear up.

Need to put the car up on a hoist that lifts it up by the wheels, or as a last resort use drive on ramps. Swaybars need to be fitted and the mounts tensioned up with the wheels at standard ride height.

So your telling me that standard the Veradas dont have a sway bar-damn. How much is it to get one, where from and how hard to fit. Any help much appreciated.
Not a rear swaybar. I think only the sports related models have a rear swaybar.

yeh the sports has a rear swaybar i just replaced it - the whiteline one set me back $180 from autobarn..
im a bit worried though about what Tek was saying re fitment - the bar didnt come with any instructions because it was a replacement for the OEM - just the generic instructions on the back of the box..
it did say though not to tighten the bolts too much though - i did them up tight because i didnt want it coming loose and i wasnt sure which one it was referring to...
also, what do you mean by adjustment? i think mines non adjustable..

yeh the sports has a rear swaybar i just replaced it - the whiteline one set me back $180 from autobarn..
im a bit worried though about what Tek was saying re fitment - the bar didnt come with any instructions because it was a replacement for the OEM - just the generic instructions on the back of the box..
it did say though not to tighten the bolts too much though - i did them up tight because i didnt want it coming loose and i wasnt sure which one it was referring to...
also, what do you mean by adjustment? i think mines non adjustable..

When it comes to suspension components you shouldn't really guess with tightness of bolts; you really need a torque wrench to ensure even pressure along components + prevent cracking of bushes etc (check kit for torque ratings or use OEM figures in workshop manual). Especially with urethane bushes (most aftermarket kits use them) you should tighten the retaining bolt up to the point where the bolt is finger tight, then use a wrench to tighten by a further 180degrees. If you squash the bush it will surely split over time.

Re adjustable bars typically you will see 2 or more mounting holes at each end of the bar, if there is only 1 hole then it is fixed stiffness.

Need to put the car up on a hoist that lifts it up by the wheels, or as a last resort use drive on ramps. Swaybars need to be fitted and the mounts tensioned up with the wheels at standard ride height.

Good point. I installed the bar loosely whilst on the ramp and then tightened all the bolts once it was off the ramp. Its a bit easier to put the bar and brackets in place with the rear raised, but you can squeeze under the car - provided its not lowered too far lol

When it comes to suspension components you shouldn't really guess with tightness of bolts; you really need a torque wrench to ensure even pressure along components + prevent cracking of bushes etc (check kit for torque ratings or use OEM figures in workshop manual). Especially with urethane bushes (most aftermarket kits use them) you should tighten the retaining bolt up to the point where the bolt is finger tight, then use a wrench to tighten by a further 180degrees. If you squash the bush it will surely split over time.

Re adjustable bars typically you will see 2 or more mounting holes at each end of the bar, if there is only 1 hole then it is fixed stiffness.

The whiteline bar didn't come with torque settings so I had to eyeball the tightening to make sure it was even and did not squash the bush. Also there's no standard bar so I had not OEM torque settings.

OK well i guess id better loosen mine off then :confused:
ill have 2 visit dads place n get a torque wrench.
cheers dudes.

Edit:
haveing a think about it - when the bolts were done up tight the bar could still move (read: slide with the greasy ****) - wouldnt this be ok? the car seems to handle ok :confused:

How hard is it to install a rear sway bar yourself. and whats the average price??

cheers

Read the previous replies to this post. It has all the answers :D

yeah mate mine was $189 - easy peasy install only 4 bolts, didnt even have to jack up the car (but then again mine does have granny pack)
hehe

Cost,
Whiteline have two types, the BMR-69, BMR69Z and BMR-69XZ i think.

I got he BMR-69 which is a 20mm rear bar. i got it from autospeed.com.au for $155.00

the X & XZ are "adjustable" i am not shure how they adjust it but it is 22mm bar and can be somehow adjusted to 24mm. I don't know how the make a bar fatter. except maybe put tension on it so it seems like a 24mm one. autospeed sell them for $220.00

If you spend over $200 from autospeed they pick up the tab on frieght. If that helps.

But i got the 20mm one and it turned my understeer to oversteer. lol

The actual bar diameter stays the same but by changing the linkage point you change the effective diameter through leverage. I think the XZ one is for strictly track use only as it is far too stiff for the road.

so from what I gather reading this thread... theres not much point doing a front sway bar? Better to do rear sway bar and front strut brace?

I've also heard rear sway bars could make the back of the car spin out in gravel or wet roads at higher speed... is this true?

Kim

Depends what size front bar you have already. If my feeling is correct, being a V6 you should have the 22mm hollow bar, in which case it's up to you. I had the 22mm hollow bar and I fitted a 20mm solid bar.

This gives less anti-roll, but it means less understeer. Firstly due to the anti-sway not being as stiff at the front and reducing tendency for the front to slide at the expense of the outer tyre being loaded a little bit more.

Reducing the front bar thickness also puts more emphasis on the rear bar. When the road is slightly damp and I exit a corner at speed, lifting off the throttle hard gets the car quite sideways. It's all about personal preference.

does the TS V6 (standard) come with a hollow rear sway bar? I had a quick look underneath but couldnt see one. Is it just the Verada that comes with one?

Cheers,
Kim

does the TS V6 (standard) come with a hollow rear sway bar? I had a quick look underneath but couldnt see one. Is it just the Verada that comes with one?

Cheers,
Kim
The 2nd gens' didn't come out with a rear sway bar, but have a torsion bar accross the back. Tek, did you install a rear sway in your KS? Did you keep the torsion bar or is it still necessary? All this stuff is on my to-do list, later

get your hands off my to-do list (hehe).

Yeah, tek I think I have the hollow front sway bar. Might leave that as is. Tzaboy - I was wondering the same... i guess the torsion bar stays in? (tek?)

Also is replacing all the bushes, camber, castor kits, and all those little fiddly bits really neccesary? That will cost quite a bit to do as its fairly labour intensive (compared to sway bar and strut brace).

Kim

I think TZABOY that you're referring to the panhard rod? That is required and keeps the rear semi-trailing arm assembly in lateral alignment with the chassis (shorten it and the whole back wheels assembly moves one way, lengthen it and it moves the other way). Commodores have adjustable ones available from Whiteline for when you lower the car but unfortunately there is not one for 2nd gen owners.

2nd Gens didn't have rear swaybars; I fitted a solid 22mm Whiteline bar and it improved handling immensely, must more noticeable than a front strut brace or a front swaybar.

With the bushes, just replace then once they are shot... most of mine I replaced because they were falling to bits and so I went urethane since it was cheaper than genuine rubber ones anyway. They make the whole ride much tighter though, but yes are very labor intensive.

With the front inner control arm bush you need a press to get the old bush out of it's metal casing, and with the trailing arm bush if you can't press it out you basically hack it out with a chisel and blowtorch (lucky I paid someone to do it I would have ripped my hair out).

Rear swaybar fitment is easy at home, just 4 brackets to install and about 6 bolts. There are no instructions with the kit, so again lucky I had help because I sure as hell wasn't going to guess where the huge bag of washers and rods and bushes went without a stock bar to refer to.

Front bar is harder, you have to remove 3 crossmembers to access the center bush retaining nuts. I guess if you had a nice ratchet drive with flexi joints on it you might be able to forgo removing the crossmembers.

Front strut brace is easy... 15min fitment with a normal socket wrench or even better, if you have a torque wrench.

looks like i might invest in some sort of package like above.
how's the handling over stock?

Much improved but I added bits in stages so it wasn't something that happened overnight... Although I could outrun most road going cars through tight suburban streets and most mountain twisties, in the end it's really just a FWD family sedan and it really reaches its limits when I go for mountain runs with my friend in his rex.

This is just my way of making a daily driver fun, a car I can park most places and not stress too much bout it getting pinched. When I have some spare $$$s in a few years I'll probably share in building up a track car with some friends, perhaps a 180 or S14, evo3.

yeah i was planning in doing the same.
but i was more inclined for a 22b sti. hummmm

When I have some spare $$$s in a few years I'll probably share in building up a track car with some friends, perhaps a 180 or S14, evo3.

Every one seems to be having the same ideas, I plan on doing the same with a mate. And a couple of other friends have already started on a Series 5 RX7, they have fully stripped it out and are in the process of building the roll cage, One off them used to work on rally cars so he wil be an invaluable resource and help to me once I start..heheh

Ohh and I forgot to mention, they will start looking at ways to enlarge the 3rd gen Magna throtle bodies without side effects :badgrin:

Yeah we figured that it would be good to have a car that we can all drive on the track and share our various expertise in. Right now I probably have the most conservative car of the group but it's good because I can still go up to the mountains or the track (not yet) with them, but for street drags I usually go shotgun.

I'm often the nominated driver (unless someone's girlfriend drives) when we go out partying because the morning drive home is a pain when you have manual, plus they don't like parking their cars anywhere.

Can't wait until (if) this project gets underway, and go to Winton once a month or something :pray: