Hi guys,

I've been searching and can't seem to find a thread which outlines the difference in braking capacity between the three Mitsi brake options.

My question is this, given that all three brake set ups had similar rotors and similar pads, and were all installed on an average 3rd gen (380 fronts only, rears don't fit), then what would the braking capacity be between each of them.

For instance, AWD twin pot = 30% more than FWD single pot, that kind of thing.

Cheers,
Dingers

Well mate, standard 3rd gen brakes rotors are 274mm front and I think 256mm rear with a solid disc and single piston calipers. The Ralliart/AWD/380 brakes have a 294mm front and 284mm ventilated rear rotors with twin pot calipers.

I don't think you could put a definite percentage number on something like that, but a fair improvement at any rate.

Also the 380 front calipers are slightly "wider" as the 380 rotor is 4mm thicker than the stock magna, ralliart and awd rotor (28mm thick vented fronts for the 380 and 24mm thick vented fronts for the magna/ralliart/awd)

Rotor thickness generally don't affect braking performance.

Rotor thickness generally don't affect braking performance.

Yes it does on a car. More material to absorb heat away from the pads, also allows for wider cooling vanes within the rotor.

I'm sure it would help if the increased width meant more air could flow through the disc.

to give you a rough idea...

at our recent qmd track day, there was a verada with stock brakes, and my car (which has twin piston 294mm fronts). with us both at pretty much the same speed at the end of the main straight (180-190kmph), I could go maybe a second or two further than the verada before needing to brake. at this sort of speed, thats about 5.5m every second. So the difference is really quite large.

We'll get to find out on the first day of MMX! We can line up each car and test it out. :)

We'll get to find out on the first day of MMX! We can line up each car and test it out. :)

OK i'll make sure the evo is there lol. Mmmm 350mmx32mm brembos lol

I'm sure it would help if the increased width meant more air could flow through the disc.

Cooling abilities helps with overall performance, say on a track...I guess this is where brake ducts will help...even easier to do if you don't have fog lights installed...<hint hint hint>

I can say that I noticed a big difference when I converted from stock to ralliart brakes.... Im still using really shitty mitsubishi pads atm, but they still bite really hard! My abs feels better too....(Just better pedal feel although this might have been because the brakes were bled..)

OK i'll make sure the evo is there lol. Mmmm 350mmx32mm brembos lol

So,you are coming out then are you....???

So,you are coming out then are you....???

Who knows.... I do know that im working that evening/night (sundays are the start of my working week)

To give you some idea of the improvement, with single pistons my braking force during rego inspection was .75g, with twin pots that had jumped to 1.05g decelarative force. Similar ambient conditions on dry roads with one year between tests.

Thanks for the response guys.

So from what's been said, Single pot to AWD twin pot = large jump.

What of the difference from twin pot to 380 phat PBR caliper brakes?

Thanks for the response guys.

So from what's been said, Single pot to AWD twin pot = large jump.

What of the difference from twin pot to 380 phat PBR caliper brakes?

That can only be measured on track with repeated braking. From the above, the 380 will have persistent braking for longer than the AWD/Ralliart brakes

oh hell yeah, massive jump from single pot to twin pots! I'm expecting an even bigger jump in performance when I properly bleed my brakes, put QFM pads and new rotors in, as I'm starting to wear out my 25,xxx old rotors and pads. Everything I go for a little bit of a thrash, I always end up smelling brake, which isnt good...

Bendix Premium FTL....

Well, over the years I have gone from standard FWD single piston/274mm rotor --->AWD/ralliart/evo4 twin piston/294mm rotor---> the 8-piston/330mm setup I have now.

Single piston: fine for normal street duty, but not great even for 'spirited' street driving. Hopeless after a couple of laps on the track even with stockish power levels (but probably fine if you're a beginner).

Twin piston: GREAT on the street, could easily induce ABS intervention at decent speeds stomping the pedal. Perfectly usable on the track with VERY GOOD pads and rotors (I ran Ferodo DS2500 and DBA4000 slotted), even with ~180wkw, good suspension, semi-slicks etc,

8-piston hotness: Fantastic for serious track use, seemingly limitless stopping power, ease of modulation and fade resistance. Complete overkill just for street duty/spirited driving.

Well, over the years I have gone from standard FWD single piston/274mm rotor --->AWD/ralliart/evo4 twin piston/294mm rotor---> the 8-piston/330mm setup I have now.

Single piston: ok for normal street duty, but not great even for 'spirited' street driving. Hopeless on the track even with stockish power levels (but probably fine if you're a beginner).

Twin piston: GREAT on the street, could easily induce ABS intervention at decent speeds stomping the pedal. Perfectly usable on the track with VERY GOOD pads and rotors (I ran Ferodo DS2500 and DBA4000 slotted), even with ~180wkw, good suspension, semi-slicks etc,

8-piston hotness: Fantastic for serious track use, seemingly limitless stopping power, ease of modulation and fade resistance. Complete overkill just for street duty/spirite driving.

The word of Chisholm has been given. Praise be to Chisholm.

Have you had any experience or knowledge on 380 brakes?

(Also Tiesto is all but dead to me :()

To give you some idea of the improvement, with single pistons my braking force during rego inspection was .75g, with twin pots that had jumped to 1.05g decelarative force. Similar ambient conditions on dry roads with one year between tests.

What speed was this test done from? I seriously doubt there would be any/much difference in decelerative force/stopping distance between the two at street speeds.

What measuring equipment was used? 1g seems a bit optimistic for a street magna...that's the sort of figure you see on the track from cars with semi-slicks, good chassis/suspension etc.


The word of Chisholm has been given. Praise be to Chisholm.

Have you had any experience or knowledge on 380 brakes?

(Also Tiesto is all but dead to me :()

haha:p

380 brakes are a little better, but I doubt you would be able to tell the difference on the street. I know a bloke who changed from awd/ralliart/evo4 brakes to 380, and said he couldn't tell any difference on the track (dedicated IPRA track car). He's since moved on to Brembos I believe.

However, if you are going from very used/worn magna/evo4 twinpots that are flexing/leaking to much newer 380 brakes, then yes you'll notice the difference.

Yes not many trance-lovers like Tiesto's recent house/popish studio stuff. But LIVE he's still the absolute king and plays for his old fans :D I saw him earlier this year, and will see him again @Stereosonic late in the year!

difference between ralliart and 380 brakes will be negligible. If you go with good pads and good rotors and braided lines on ralliart/awd brakes then you will be very happy.

difference between ralliart and 380 brakes will be negligible. If you go with good pads and good rotors and braided lines on ralliart/awd brakes then you will be very happy.

I spose I want the 380 brakes for the "LOOK AT THIS HUGE CALIPER, JUST LOOK AT IT" factor...

difference between ralliart and 380 brakes will be negligible. If you go with good pads and good rotors and braided lines on ralliart/awd brakes then you will be very happy.
Performance from 380 brakes will be quite a bit better as they have a larger pad, and thicker rotor. More surface area and better ventalation.

Everything I go for a little bit of a thrash, I always end up smelling brake, which isnt good...



Don't be concerned about hot brake smell, it doesn't mean much in isolation. Even with the almost comically oversized brakes I have now, I can smell em after just a bit of fairly mild 'spirited' driving on the street. I think some pads are just more prone to smell more than others.

When I had Ferodo DS2500 and the much smaller twin-pots I would never smell anything, even at the track. But the QFM A1RM I have now seem to smell even when barely hot.


Performance from 380 brakes will be quite a bit better as they have a larger pad, and thicker rotor. More surface area and better ventalation.

We're talking 4mm of rotor thickness and a marginally larger bad surface area. Yes they are a little better, but not hugely so. IMO if you already have the ralliart/awd/evo4 brakes, not worth the cost/hassle of going to 380 brakes (unless the caliper is flexing/leaking, you can get an amazing deal etc)

If you're upgrading from single-piston brakes, and are looking at much the same cost either way, then yes go the 380 brakes!

Ahh cool.

How about the lack of availability of decent pads for the 380's? I was under the impression that QFM didnt make their track pads for the 380 caliper

Another thing to remember is that the choice of available 1223 brake pads "off the shelf" for the ralliart/awd caliper is huge thanks mainly due to the early evo/vr4 whereas the 380 caliper has limited choice of decent pads BUT 95% of people on here wont have a problem as they will only ever use there cars on the street.

Ahh cool.

How about the lack of availability of decent pads for the 380's? I was under the impression that QFM didnt make their track pads for the 380 caliper

I am sure if you ask them nicely they can knock some together. Perhaps get a group-buy going on a few sets to bring cost down?

QFM now make the HPX front pads for a 380, check out this thread: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81652&page=1
So a fair chance the also make the A1RM. Maybe ask Mal?

well thats a doozy then, if they make the design in the HP-X (which by the way is an excellent street pad) then it should be much easier to do them in the A1RM, i guess?

Basically you can have any pad you want for the 380 calipers it'll just cost you extra.

I have cut down Hawk Ceramic , $60 per set extra to cut them.

My favorite 380 has a brake package that looks like this....

It really is frightening how quickly they stop a 380 from serious speeds.


http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4329/tmrbrakes380.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/tmrbrakes380.jpg/)



6 piston calipers with split 370mm discs, braided aircraft hydraulic lines.
A beautiful combination......but you need plenty of money.

My favorite 380 has a brake package that looks like this....

It really is frightening how quickly they stop a 380 from serious speeds.


http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4329/tmrbrakes380.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/tmrbrakes380.jpg/)



6 piston calipers with split 370mm discs, braided aircraft hydraulic lines.
A beautiful combination......but you need plenty of money.

Yep, great brakes, but what gives with the skew whiff side indicator?

There seems to be some debate on AWD/Evo4/Ralliart brakes vs 380 Brakes, we did a side-by-side comparison to Evo4/AWD/Ralliart and 380 front calipers today. The size is quite substancial (especially in the piston, which allows for better brakeforce distribution).

Here is the comparison: http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/db_newman/8d9fba73.jpg

http://s419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/db_newman/http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/db_newman/8d9fba73.jpg

Yep, great brakes, but what gives with the skew whiff side indicator?


See for yourself...it's an optical illusion...http://www.themotorreport.com.au/4327/the-motor-report-exclusive-tmr-380-driven

See for yourself...it's an optical illusion...http://www.themotorreport.com.au/4327/the-motor-report-exclusive-tmr-380-driven

Something definitely wrong with that pic!

The door shut line is all wrong, and so is the bottom of the sill.

Both the HPX and A1RM are available for the 380 Caliper, I keep the HPX on the shelf and the A1RM are an as per order basis

I have personally gone from the std to the AWD to the 380 set up on my wagon, the step up to AWD was good but expected, the change to 380 is a different thing all together. I have on my car the exact same kit I sell, ie QFM, new RDA non slotted rotors and 380 calipers. I have only today given the car a good run through some twisties, teh 380 brakes certainly feel a lot better than even teh AWD set up once they start getting some real work out. The AWD are great brakes but the 380 come into their own under constant heavy braking

When I generally do the twisties I use the engine to do most of my braking however today I purposly was heavy on brakes to make sure I got a good run into them, they did not show any signs of fading when pushed very hard

Any news on the 380 rears Mal, or are you not going to pursue?

to give you a rough idea...

at our recent qmd track day, there was a verada with stock brakes, and my car (which has twin piston 294mm fronts). with us both at pretty much the same speed at the end of the main straight (180-190kmph), I could go maybe a second or two further than the verada before needing to brake. at this sort of speed, thats about 5.5m every second. So the difference is really quite large.

180 km/h is 50 m/s (which makes your point pretty strongly!)

Were you using special rotors and pads with the AWD brakes though Mal?

Not really fair if it's std AWD brakes and your 380 brake package side by side.

Dean, how much more do the 380 brakes weigh over AWD?