hey,

what would be the benefit (if at all) of putting some 380 injectors into my 3.0L, i scored 3, i just need to get the other 3. i see they have about 10 holes (a guess, didnt have glasses on) so that would make a finer mist as opposed to the 4 hole factory setup. but idk......

also, if i put the no. 15 cams in, do i need to put new valve springs in? (if anyone has some 380 cams, please let me know)

thanks.

380 injectors are bigger then your 3L ones so you willl be using more fuel without a fuel/air controller, and no you dont need new valve springs, the lift is minimal

I might have a set lying around for sale if you want. I just need to find them. :)

I meant a set of 380 injectors not cams. Your thread was for 380 injectors not cams mate.

of cams? cool just shoot me a pm.
will have to be after qmd mm1 though

I meant a set of 380 injectors not cams. Your thread was for 380 injectors not cams mate.

I meant a set of 380 injectors not cams. Your thread was for 380 injectors not cams mate.

pffff, read the second part of the post, it asks if anyone has any cam. i already have 3 injectors, just have to get the other 3.

so when i ask if anybody has some cams, and a person replies, "I might have a set lying around for sale if you want. I just need to find them."

the assumption comes naturally, mate

anyway, thread can be closed now, got the answers i am looking for

pffff, read the second part of the post, it asks if anyone has any cam. i already have 3 injectors, just have to get the other 3.

so when i ask if anybody has some cams, and a person replies, "I might have a set lying around for sale if you want. I just need to find them."

the assumption comes naturally, mate

anyway, thread can be closed now, got the answers i am looking for

I did not notice your 2nd line, that's my mistake. I'm just trying to help out that's all.

Anyway good luck in your hunt.

I did not notice your 2nd line, that's my mistake. I'm just trying to help out that's all.

Anyway good luck in your hunt.

no worries, any help is always appreciated,
hope to see ya at qmd mm1

;1310085']380 injectors are bigger then your 3L ones so you willl be using more fuel without a fuel/air controller, and no you dont need new valve springs, the lift is minimal

not 100% true, expecialy at idle it can be alot leaner, and bigger injectors generaly have bigger latenancy, so the extra time it takes for the injectors to open can cancel out the extra fuel it pumps when open at lower pulse, yet higher up in the range with a longer pulse it will put in more fuel, so u end up left with a car that has to little fuel at some stages and to much at others. and thats assuming the impedance is similar so they will still run.

not sure about what ecu ure car runs, yet i know a few of the magnas can be reflashed relativily easy like the evos 5-10 can with open ecu

not 100% true, expecialy at idle it can be alot leaner, and bigger injectors generaly have bigger latenancy, so the extra time it takes for the injectors to open can cancel out the extra fuel it pumps when open at lower pulse, yet higher up in the range with a longer pulse it will put in more fuel, so u end up left with a car that has to little fuel at some stages and to much at others. and thats assuming the impedance is similar so they will still run.

not sure about what ecu ure car runs, yet i know a few of the magnas can be reflashed relativily easy like the evos 5-10 can with open ecu
3rd gen ECU's can be flashed too. but my point in case was by putting in bigger injectors without proper tuning, shit will be whack.

Have to disagree, if the oxy sensor is doing its job, the ecu will adjust. My TE actually had 3.0 injectors stuffed into the 3.5 when I picked it up and drove it from syd to here, I could feel it adjusting as I drove it and it picked up pwer and torque as the ecu adjusted and gave it a longer pulse

Have to disagree, if the oxy sensor is doing its job, the ecu will adjust. My TE actually had 3.0 injectors stuffed into the 3.5 when I picked it up and drove it from syd to here, I could feel it adjusting as I drove it and it picked up pwer and torque as the ecu adjusted and gave it a longer pulse

Can you explain that in more detail if you dont mind (as I like to learn) as I know the standard ECU has the cc/min listed in the software (Ralliart is 268cc) so if you put bigger injectors in (in this case 3L ones to 3.8L ones) wouldn't the ECU still think it has standard injectors in it as that's whats programmed in?!

that is what i thought madmagna,
the o2 sensor will pick up the the mixture is too rich, and will reduce the injectors duty cycle to make the stoichiometric ratio back to the desired level. this is calculated to be a number of around (by memory) 13 or 14 parts air to 1 part fuel. this gives the motor peak performace / peak engine longevity. so the ecu will always aim for that number. and the input from the maf and the o2 sensor should change the injector cycle to get as close to this number as possible by aiming for a set amount of expelled o2 in the exhaust fumes.

at worste an ecu reset should make it pretty close.....

that is what i thought madmagna,
the o2 sensor will pick up the the mixture is too rich, and will reduce the injectors duty cycle to make the stoichiometric ratio back to the desired level. this is calculated to be a number of around (by memory) 13 or 14 parts air to 1 part fuel. this gives the motor peak performace / peak engine longevity. so the ecu will always aim for that number. and the input from the maf and the o2 sensor should change the injector cycle to get as close to this number as possible by aiming for a set amount of expelled o2 in the exhaust fumes.

at worste an ecu reset should make it pretty close.....

Interesting....And that number is 14.65:1 :)

;1310731']Interesting....And that number is 14.65:1 :)

haha, cool, i knew it was around there. is it true that the actual most efficient is about 13, and the car (being programed that way) adds a bit extra to make the engine last longer? i am remembering this from wayyy back, so it sorta making sense

Help me understand, if this was the case wouldn't people like myself with piggyback ecu's find that the factory ecu would undo all the good work over time & revert everything back to the factory programmed settings then?

Help me understand, if this was the case wouldn't people like myself with piggyback ecu's find that the factory ecu would undo all the good work over time & revert everything back to the factory programmed settings then?


that is what happened when somebody on here made a jaycar kit, they leaned the car out and eventually the car returned to stock, but the car only has so much it can adujust. if you have a piggyback ecu, it is likley that it is an interceptor, and it can change the input and output signals going to and from the ecu

that is what happened when somebody on here made a jaycar kit, they leaned the car out and eventually the car returned to stock, but the car only has so much it can adujust. if you have a piggyback ecu, it is likley that it is an interceptor, and it can change the input and output signals going to and from the ecu

Isn't that what a piggyback does ?

;1310778']Isn't that what a piggyback does ?

good ones, but the jaycar one i was on about was cheap, and it intercepted the output signals only.

looking at the members ride thread off foozrcool, he has a unichip, which is obviously a good one

;1310778']Isn't that what a piggyback does ?

Yeah but I'm thinking it bends the MAF sensor input but the O2 sensors are still connected directly to the factory ecu. So while the piggyback will vary the airflow input signal to alter AFR's, if what you guys are saying is correect wouldn't the factory ecu read the mixture via the O2 sensor too rich or lean & try to adjust which would work against the piggyback?

does you piggy back not plug into the o2 sensor? it doesnt recieve signals from the injectors or anything else?
does it just take the maf signal and change it then send it to the ecu?

As far as I know it bends the MAF sensor signal to alter the AFR & the crank angle sensor to change the timing & that's it. With the blower I think I also get a TPS input for boost enrichment.

As far as I know it bends the MAF sensor signal to alter the AFR & the crank angle sensor to change the timing & that's it. With the blower I think I also get a TPS input for boost enrichment.

Although factory idle settings are one of the hardest things to do, i do love having a full ECU. Anything i want to do can be done. Hell, I can wire up MIVEC if i wish. My point being there's only so much you can alter with these things and will never get the most out of the car.

I've spent about 2 hours working on my idle and 9-10 idles perfect.

i guess so long as you are getting a complete burn of the fuel and not having too much or too little fuel it wont change it.

here is my theory, just throwing it out there as an idea:

because magnas already have a map as far as i know, but they use the sensors to adjust it for different conditions, so, i guess the o2 sensor and the maf sensor would only make the ecu change if it calculates that the stoichiometric ratio is to high above or too far below the 14.61.
so perhaps if the o2 sensor is faulty, and it is reading a 10 for the stoich value (ie 10 parts air, 1 part fuel) it makes the ecu dump heaps of fuel in, this is the common occurance when the o2 sensor it gone. if the o2 sensor detects too high above 14.61, for example if i put 380 injectors in my car, the reading may be 16:1. then the o2 sensor would tell the ecu to reduce the duty cycle on the injectors, and therfore adding less fuel.... this may only be able to happen after a reset of the ecu, when it is still in learning mode.

my theory is that there is an acceptable range of o2 allowed in the exhaust, (just throwing numbers out there) like 3-7 %, and your piggyback is tuned to the maximum extent to whichever way its tuned. im guesing its leaned out a bit, therefore your car may be at 13.9 parts air to 1 part fuel, which may still be acceptable for the car to run with and hence not altering the map.

I have larger 420cc injectors for the Supercharger & it is tuned to be flat across the rev range at 11.8 AFR. Dunno how it all works but it does & it's been a year now since my last tune.

that means that either your ecu has be tuned, or your piggyback has been pluged into more that you know.

are 380 ecu's like magna one, where only 1 person in aust can tune them properly?

No they are a Bosch unit & can't be tuned hence the piggyback.

well, i really dont know. so the guy that tuned it must have has a stoich gauge hooked up to you motor, and just kept fiddleing with the piggyback until he reached 11.8?

Yeah it was running super rich with the 420's first installed & he scaled them back with the piggyback ecu to 11.8. It's a bit on the rich side as a safety as it is boosted.

see maybey becasue your 420's are so much bigger than stock the ecu couldnt cope, but with the smaller gap between mine and the 380 injectors (unsure how big) my ecu may be able to manage.

Yeah you are probably right. I think the 380 injectors are 305cc from memory.

its a bit of a mystery though, because if the sensors cant adjust the ecu as to make it the best setup, then what are they there fore? i will soon see when i get the other 3 injectors...

its a bit of a mystery though, because if the sensors cant adjust the ecu as to make it the best setup, then what are they there fore? i will soon see when i get the other 3 injectors...

Are you talking standard or piggyback?

ok sensors on a car can adjust to a point, thats what long term and short term trims are for, the can adjust to slight differences in injector size, however you run into another problem, being injector latency, bigger the injector the bigger the latency, trims are just an overall adjustment, not a adjustment at difference rpms, so it will be good for a small ammount of the rev range if there is a signigicant difference. generaly this area will be the area you drive in most.
the ecu sensors are ment to adjust around a factory setup, slight things that differ from motor to motor, different atmospheric conditions, differnt fuel quality ect (a set of 300cc injectors might only be flowing 290, yet another set might flow 310), not big changes.

if you change your injectors its best to reflash the ecu rather than piggy back because most piggy backs do get learnt around over time. yet a reflash adjusts the factory ecu settings so the very base of it.
and injector size change is pretty simple in ecuflash anyway, change the size and change injector scale.

and for those talking about air fuel ratios, its better to use lambda than af when talking about peak power ect, as every fuel has a different lambda after, eg stoich is 14.7 on standard 91 ron, yet on e10 its actualy 14.1
and e85 is 9.86 (all of those numbers represent labda 1)
and as for what one makes the most power or is most efficent, there is alot to know in the background
lambda 1 is the chemical perfect burn where all air and all fuel is used.
for economy cruising on realy light throttle in a NA car some cars will run slighty higher lamda so lean beyond stoich
for actualy using the car however there are a few other areas to consider
these being
max power about .85
max torque lean .89 approx
max torque rich .78 approx
2 areas that max similar torque (the max you will be able to obtain) at two different afrs one if the leaner one and one is the richer (both are well below lambda 1) you realy need to tune around these settings to work out whats best for your use of the car, then there are some areas you dont go near as the risk of detonation is to high. even though they seem like they are safe (to complex to get into why here) yet you can notice with some people tuning evos on e85 they get into these areas and assume the mixture is too rich and lean it out to avoid detonation when it might acutaly of been better for them to enrich further to get away from this area then gain extra power there with a timing increase.

the reason the perfect 14.7 ratio is not optimal for alot of settings is because although its chemicaly perfect in reality there will be lots of the cylinder filled with areas that are richer and leaner than this as its not possible to achive a perfect mixing of air and fuel while it mixes in the cylinder so if you run it slightly richer you end up with alot fewer areas to lean and more around the ratio you want for the best burn.