Hey folks I noticed something this morning that I havent seen before.

I started the car and backed it out for the missus this morning and came back inside to get the kids into the car. Without realising the car had been left to idle for nearly 10 minutes on the drive.

When she drove off it left a nice cloud of blue smoke behind, which I can say is the first time I have ever seen that. Mind you its the first time it's idled on the drive for 10 minutes too. I generally always give the mob a wave as they cruise off and I never seen it before.

Whats the story behind the smoke?

Rings, stem seals or bit of everything with 190K on the clock for a 3 litre?


I have to admit I am a little disappointed with todays show by the ol girl. It hasn't missed an oil change which I do at 7500 with a new filter and air cleaners at 20 to 30K depending. I was hoping to get another 18 months out of the old bus.

Previous experience with both Nissan and Honda have seen far greater kms racked up before oil consumption became an issue, like into the 3 and 400k marks.

it will be valve stem seals going by what you have said. they can be changed with the heads on, which will save you a bit of money. what oil do you use?

Hi Bellto, I have used Catrol Magnatec in since I have owned it. I waited till my wife got hame again this morning and I left the car to idle on the drive for 5 minutes. Took off and same result, big cloud of blue smoke.

How do you change a valve stem seal without dropping a valve?

Are they known to wear at these sort of kms? The car does everything else without issue and it's as quiet as a mouse when idling. I though lifters etc would be the first things to play up.

Hi Bellto, I have used Catrol Magnatec in since I have owned it. I waited till my wife got hame again this morning and I left the car to idle on the drive for 5 minutes. Took off and same result, big cloud of blue smoke.

How do you change a valve stem seal without dropping a valve?

Are they known to wear at these sort of kms? The car does everything else without issue and it's as quiet as a mouse when idling. I though lifters etc would be the first things to play up.

how long have you had the car? my 3.0L has nearly 230k on it and doesnt blow any blue smoke. i change the oil every 15k but that is about 4 times per year, so every 3 months. the previous owners may have neglected it a bit too much, does it have a service history?

We bought it with a full Mitsubishi service history from my inlaws. It had 60K on it when we bought it. The only thing I can think of is the fact it just does short trips most days, say 5 to 7 k's each way. I usually take it on long runs whenever I can.

Do you do something with TDC to stop the vavles falling in? Thats the only thing I can think of, rotate the motor over to service every cylinders valves.

There are dozens of ways to change the stem seals without pulling the heads from using compressed air in the plug hole to stuffing string in the combustion chamber thru the plug hole. Do a Google.
If it was me, and I was planning on getting rid of the car in a year or two, then I'd wouldn't worry and just keep driving it. Maybe change to a thicker oil will help. Gotta keep life simple.

I have a similar issue in my KJ AWD. I too was using Magnatec. Aparently stem seals is a big/expensive job in these babies. People seem to say its cheaper and easier to get a change over motor. I don't want to do this as my motor is fine other than a little smoke.
Try this dude and it will help in a huge way.
Change the oil and filter and use Penrite HPR 30. It has a velocity of 20w - 60. Magnatec is like 10w 30 which is way too thin for an older high milage motor.
I had the same prob as you dude, and now, since using the Penrite HPR30, she doesnt blow any more smoke at all even after a 10 min idle. You can get a slight wiff of burning oil but atleast she doesnt blow any visable smoke which was my main concern. This will get you a few more years of motoring out of her wiothout any work done.

Ive read that to change the stem seals, you either need to plug an air compressor into the spark plug hole to hold the valves up, but if you lose pressure it will fall in. The other way is to poke a length of thin rope or similar down the spark plug hole, and turn the engine (by hand) till the piston pushes the rope against the valve, holding it up while you change the seal. Both will be expensive due to the hours in labour if you pay someone else to do it I think, or if you take the heads off you can push the valve back in from the other side if it falls out. Never done it, only googled it, so don't go on this advice alone.

You have used the car for 130,000 km with just basic servicing, so you have had a good run out of it.
Options:
Try a thicker oil, should help a lot. Keep using the car or sell it soonish before it starts smoking again.

If you plan to keep it for an extended period of time, get the valve stem seals done. Also, the timing belt etc needs doing. Be prepared to spend some big money.

If you are handy with tools you can do the seals and belt in one go.

Madmax I reckon 190k is crap to be honest from a 2 owner car. I am going to take the car to a mate and we will run a compression test. If it's good I might replace the seals otherwise I am going to sell it to a wrecker. If you saw the car in the flesh you'd rate it cosmetically better than some 3 year old jobs getting around. I have always looked after my vehicles and they don't cop a hard time. The amount of times that thing has seen the other side of 3000rpm you could probably count on one hand.

Our previous vehicle waqs a purchased new n14 Nissan Pulsar 1.6 manual. It belongs to my sister as their second run around. A smidge under 500000kms. That vehicle has had one issue. A split power steering hose. Original clutch, rocker cover never been off and they don't run timing belts. For peace of mind I had the thing tested by RACQ prior to passing on to my sister and it was given a clean bill at 380K. Honda Integra 1.8 manual, 340000Kms untouched and still returning 6.5 lts per 100. I guess if it were around 300K I wouldn't be whinging but 190K aint out there by any stretch.

I must have upset the karma for the old lass. I put a set of alloys (second hand VRX) alloys on it 2 weeks ago. She obviously took offence to the tart up.

that is really bad out of a 3rd gen, second gen that would be expected, but no a 3rd gen.

if changin oil doesnt help, and you are going to sell it to a wrecker, give it a good thrashing, go for a drive and redline her just to give it a rev, and see how it goes after that. i mean, if your gonna get rid of it anyway.....

Seems to be a problem with the valve stem oil seals on some Magnas. Might have something to do with short trips, not enough temp to create oil vapour and lube everything. I know that a Magna that is parked and not used for a long time can develop hardened seals that cause smoking long before it should happen.

If the car is cosmetically good, is otherwise reliable, suits your family etc - why on earth decide to ditch it because you have only just noticed that valve stem seals are not as good as brand new? Its not - I assume - consuming great amounts of oil. It generally doesn't spend long times idling, so the effect of wearing-out valve stem seals may not be noticeable in general use.

Try a higher viscosity oil (had to laff at the "velocity" typo!) as suggested. There are all sorts of "instant fix" oil additives as well which claim to assist in supressing the symnptoms you have just noticed...... I am not a great fan of aftermarket additives, but for $15- or so, what have you got to lose? (If you have an oil change due, I'd try the thicker "old engine" oil rather than tip in an additive now. If you have had an oil change done recently, try and additive and see how it goes - use thicker oil on the next change).

Compression test is a good idea - maybe it has dropped a ring or something...... just as bad things happen to good people at times, sometimes generally well-treated vehicle nevertheless suffer a mechanical failure or some sort. I'm assuming that the puff of smoke is fairly minor, and just surprised that "ditch the car" is even an option at the moment........

If the car is cosmetically good, is otherwise reliable, suits your family etc - why on earth decide to ditch it because you have only just noticed that valve stem seals are not as good as brand new? Its not - I assume - consuming great amounts of oil. It generally doesn't spend long times idling, so the effect of wearing-out valve stem seals may not be noticeable in general use.

Try a higher viscosity oil (had to laff at the "velocity" typo!) as suggested. There are all sorts of "instant fix" oil additives as well which claim to assist in supressing the symnptoms you have just noticed...... I am not a great fan of aftermarket additives, but for $15- or so, what have you got to lose? (If you have an oil change due, I'd try the thicker "old engine" oil rather than tip in an additive now. If you have had an oil change done recently, try and additive and see how it goes - use thicker oil on the next change).

Compression test is a good idea - maybe it has dropped a ring or something...... just as bad things happen to good people at times, sometimes generally well-treated vehicle nevertheless suffer a mechanical failure or some sort. I'm assuming that the puff of smoke is fairly minor, and just surprised that "ditch the car" is even an option at the moment........

I agree. I think he is angry at the car and wants to punish it . . . . . That doesn't work with cars. Doesn't work with people either.

Come on lads, angry at the car? Are you serious? I am a bit peeved at the low milage. The first 60k was put on by my mother in law. The rest have been put on there by my wife. This car is so far from copping a hard time it's not funny.

The reason behind ditching it are the upcoming 200k service. Quite expensive on an oily donk. If the motor was tight I would not hesitate but fair suck of the sav. She sounds like an expensive motor over the next 20 to 30k

Come on lads, angry at the car? Are you serious? I am a bit peeved at the low milage. The first 60k was put on by my mother in law. The rest have been put on there by my wife. This car is so far from copping a hard time it's not funny.

The reason behind ditching it are the upcoming 200k service. Quite expensive on an oily donk. If the motor was tight I would not hesitate but fair suck of the sav. She sounds like an expensive motor over the next 20 to 30k

yep, theres no way i would do a 200k service on an oily motor. you dont really need to worry about the timing belt for another 30k so leave it until then, and take it to one of those $3000 minimum trade in places and get a newer car.

Yep, 200,000 km is the magic "spend money on it or get rid of it" time for the 3rd gen. Plenty of them around in the same condition going cheaply. Bad for the seller, good for the DIY buyer. Heads off, valves checked, new gaskets and valve stem oil seals, new belt, water pump etc. $500 in parts, plus any head work that needs doing, and she is good for another 100,000 km. Just went through that process with a second gen V6 earlier this year. No biggie, looking back on it. Hurray for DIY! (I say that a lot, let me know if I need to shutup my #$%$#@@ mouth! lol)

To the OP: just change the oil to something thicker and carry on. Check around for oil additives that say they soften up valve stem seals. The cam belt should be good for a few years yet if its the second belt on the car. No hurry really.

I'm 100% with MadMax - thicker oil for a start and then consider doing the seals at your leisure. When you trade you have to remember the car you are thinking of buying also has been rejected by it's owner. Caveat Emptor.

Just curious, I did make a change to the fuel a few tanks ago. The local servo didn't have regular unleaded, only ethanol blend so I started using premium unleaded and have stuck to that since. Just coincidence?

Yep, just coincidence. Fuel goes nowhere near valve stem seals.

Dude. As i stated earlier. Change your oil to Penrite HPR 30.
I'm 95% sure this will solve your problem. I had exactly the same issue in my KJ with 160,000 on it using Magnatec. I changed the oil advised by Mal and now it blows no smake at all.
Seriously, a $40 oil change can help solve youir problem.
PS. Dont put any additives in at all. I have tried them and they made it worse. Just change the oil.
May take 2 oil changes to get rid of all smoke but the first oil change will do most if not all of it.

Hi Family wagon I will definitely give the Penrite a go.

Probably what has made me think so much about this was a ex mechanic I spoke to yesterday morning who has drawn a link between two issues, one of which I thought was a non issue.

About 8 weeks ago I noticed coolant leaks, two extremely minor ones. One was the top hose connection to the engine. There was a few spots of white where the coolant dries on the side of the front valve cover. I simply adressed this by tightening the hose clamp a quarter turn. The leak stopped.

The second was the thermostat housing gasket. I have noticed that the smallest amount of coolant has been coming through that gasket, maybe two drops of water sitting on the external gasket surface every couple of days. I checked the thermostat and replaced that gasket on the last coolant change I did 27000kms/2 years ago. I thought it odd to begin to leak 2 years after replacement but I had one do that on an old Landcruiser I had, every 10 months the gasket would beging to weep a little.

Upon speaking to the bloke yesterday and telling him of the minor coolant leaks he supsects a head gasket issue. Slight pressure build up causing the leaks as well as the smoke. I'm not so sure but I guess it might explain the leak. Anyway he is going to pressure test the cooling system and check the compression for me.

Like I have said previously I would have thought that if it were the stem seals that i would have noticed smoke even last week as I often help the missus on her way. His explanation of a head gasket seems a touch more possible because that can be a spontaneous oil blowing problem.

I didn't mention the coolant problem because none is missing from the overflow bottle or the radiator so I'm not sure what is going on.

This is a picture of the leaking thermostat gasket. The amount of residue here would be about 2 weeks worth.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/aldotalks/DSC00355-1.jpg

The amount of loss is not registering on the overflow bottle dip stick or checking via the radiator cap.

errr . . . .blown head gasket gives you white smoke.
Oil burning through worn rings or leaking valve stem seals gives you blue smoke.

I'm not sure where you are going with all this. A blown head gasket will cost you a lot more to fix than valve stem seals.

Just something that the fellow who was going to look at it next week mentioned. Something about the possibility of a faulty head gasket. Hopefully he can tell me a bit more when he looks at it and if is just stem seals I'll try the oil change.

I thought perhaps a leaking head gasket may cause coolant leaks like the above picture?

Chances of a head gasket in a S4 engine being blows are remote, if it is, throw away the engine and get another as there will be more serious issues there

I would recommend a complete engine flush to begin with, will make it worse for a time but will clear up better afterwards. Then go the Penrite and if it is stem seals, will not cure it but will at least settle it down

Make sure before you start this head gasket route that you get everything completely pressure tested, shame to waste a lot of money for a wrong idea

Hi fellas, even more questions. Will the heavier viscosity oil affect tappets? The motor is currently silent when hot cold or in between.

not necessarily. dirty and old oil will,
it is getting into summer now so a thicker oil wont make much difference when cold, compared to magnatec in the winter.

it would be a good idea to get some cheap gulf western oil, do a flush with an engine flush addiive, then drian the oil, change the filter (all when its hot) then put some hpr30 in it.

that is where i would start

Talked to my mechanic very expirienced in magnas and valve stem seal problems he said if the valve stem seals are totally gone. Use 25-60w oil witch he uses and a bottle of lucus oil stabalizer and that will slow is down if not stop the problem.

I've been thinking that hopefully there is no head issue and the coolant leak from the thermo is coincidental. If that all checks out the replacement valve stem seals are just under $200 plus a plenum gasket at $7. I did the rocker cover gaskets and spark plug seals last year so hopefully they'll be ok.

Found this on a google


Magna valve stem seal replacement
From Mitsubishi Encyclopedia
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Brand new valve stem sealValve stem seals are used to stop oil from dripping down the valve guides and into the bore. They sit on top of the valve guides, where the valve stem slides in and out.

As with any rubber seal, with age they can perish and begin leaking. When this happens, the engine will start to blow small amounts of blue smoke, mainly at startup or if the car has been idling for long periods. This is because oil seeps into the combustion chambers.

Many think that replacing the valve stem seals is a major job and requires pulling the head off (and thus replacing the head gasket). This is not the case on the engines used in the Magna.

This page discusses valve stem seal replacement with the head still bolted to the block. This can be done using nylon rope or a spark plug hole attachment for an air compressor to hold the valves up.

Doing the job
1.Remove the rocker cover(s) to gain access to the top of the head. On V6 models work on one bank at a time.
2.Unbolt the rocker assembly, ensuring that you do not drop the hydraulic tappets out of the rocker arms. You may use PVC tape or special lash adjuster holders to ensure this or use due care.
3.Once you can gain access to the top of the valve feed a length of nylon rope into the cylinder through the spark plug hole. Ensure you have enough left over to pull it back out. Wind the engine over until it is tight - the valve will be held in place by the rope. If using an air compressor, make sure that you have no air leaks and that the compressor can keep up the required air pressure.
4.Using an overhead valve spring compressor, compress the valve spring and remove the collets.
5.Once the valve spring is clear, the valve should sit there by itself if you have correctly held it up with compressed air or rope. If it drops, obviously this hasnt been done properly and you now have to pull the head off to retrieve the valve.
6.Remove the valve stem seal from the top of the valve guide gently with a pair of multi-grips or pliers. Discard the seal.
7.Lubricate the valve stem and seal with oil, slide the new valve stem seal over the valve stem and into position. Use a valve stem seal installer or a long socket to gently tap the seal down. Do not damage the seal. If you do it will leak.
8.Reinstall the valve spring and collets. When reinstalling make sure that the aligning mark on the valve spring faces the rocker arms
9.Repeat the procedure from step 4 for this cylinder's other valves
10.When all valves on this cylinder have had their seals replaced, move to the next cylinder and repeat from step 3.
11.When you have done all cylinders, replace the rocker assembly and rocker cover.
Notes: The multivalve engines used in the Magna/Verada use different valve stem seals for exhaust and inlet valves. These are typically colour coded so be sure to ask your part's supplier which is which when you pick the seals up.




It seems to be quite a common problem

http://www.carsales.com.au/reviews/2004/medium-passenger/mitsubishi/magna/mitsubishi-magna-and-verada-1996--2000-3958

That article tends to give em a bit of a good rap.

Howdy fellas

I spent a fair bit of last night scouring here and the web for info and strangely feel better knowing it's a common problem and I haven't ended up with some dud motor. I am looking for the tools to do this, firstly a valve spring compressor and then the tool that sits in the spark plug to allow you to hook up an air compressor. My searches on ebay didn't come up with much as I didn't know what they are called.

For the valve spring compressor I came up with many, something like this ok and well priced??

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VALVE-SPRING-COMPRESSOR-UNIVERSAL-OVERHEAD-AMPRO-NEW-/140402538477?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20b0a4b7ed


Any hints on the air compressor fitting or just stick with string?

Cheers.

Yep, thats the valve spring compressor. Also available at car parts places, so its worth while to check for prices there. Used one on a 12 valve 3.0L motor, don't know if the jaws on it will fit the valve springs on the 24 valve motor though. I would find some non fraying good quality rope, like washing line rope (?) and feed that down the plug hole with the piston halfway down, then wind the motor towards TDC for that piston so the rope jams hard against all 4 valves, then do those. I haven't done it this way, I prefer to take the heads off to check the valves. Sit the head flat with plugs and valves still in, fill with water and see which leak. Makes it easier to take off springs, lifters etc, and get the head pressure tested, cleaned up and seats cleaned up. It adds to the cost and time on the job, but I figure that its worth it to get the heads perfect again, no point changing the seals if a valve is leaking or likely to start leaking. Someone with PRACTICAL experience on this job with heads on might be able to give you some pointers.

Try the thicker oil first though.

I've done this job on many older cars and just fabricated a lever with a forked end to compress the valve spring or used a length of tube with a slot cut out, but shop-bought is probably better. For the compressed air, you just get an old spark plug, remove the innards, then find any old Schrader valve stem and solder/braze it to the plug - screw the plug in and add compressed air. You possibly could use a new tubeless tyre valve and jam it up the sparkplug - the compressed air would seat it home in the plug body. You can buy the proper fittings but I find it's more rewarding to DIY. The string method is also pretty easy - just make sure you use string/cord that will not leave threads behind when you remove it. Good Luck.

Any special tools to remove the stem seals themselves? I have seen the removers on ebay for around $20 are they essential?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Extra-Long-Valve-Stem-Seal-Removal-Tool-Remover-Pliers-/130439627068?pt=AU_Hand_Tools&hash=item1e5ecec13c

I'm up for anything that makes the job easier and doesn't involve slipping and cursing with long nose pliers.

Just a note on the thicker oil, whilst I don't mind the idea my brother in law tried it on his 1999 3.5 litre V6 Pajero. He said he had no luck with it. He is now keen for me to do my seals so then he can get me to do his.

Got the vehicle checked last weekend and the mechanic was suprised as to how well the vehicle was maintained and general condition of the mechanicals. Said pretty much what was said here;) Keep driving it and servicing. Since the issue arose I seem to have noticed 3 other Mitsubishi smokers on the roadlol all blowing a puff of smoke when leaving the lights.

I happened to test drive what I was considering a replacement. A 3ish year old Honda Accord Euro. Whilst the specs read both motors having 140KW, the 2.4 litre 4 cyl and the Magna 3 litre V6, the Magna engine seems to easily outpower the Honda in acceleration to the point I was quite disappointed. You have to rev the guts out of the Honda to get any comparable performance. Beautifully finished underpowered 4 cylinder vehicle that I reckon would consume more fuel because you would have to drive it hard to get decent performance.

Thats typical Honda mate. No torque but hepas of poke once you rev the guts out of em. Useless really.
I too have noticed a few 3rd gens blowing recently. Age is catching up to our cars.
Once again dude, just do the oil. I have done it and never had any smoke since. Like new again.
Have done 20,000k's since i first had the smoke issue and oil changed to thicker oil and it hasn't blown any since.
Penrite HPR 30 mate to be safe. Just do it. For the sake of $40 worth of oil and a $15 oil filter, it could/should solve all your problems.

Strange that a 200k km Magna could outpower a similar output 38K km Honda. I have been a motorcyclist for 30 years, rode as a young pup and I am not a fan of todays high end motorcycle engines. Which I guess is why the Honda disappointed me. A bit of low end torque is nice.

A bit of low end torque is nice.

Especially if it is mated to a gearbox that likes to change early. lol