Hey All,

Need some urgent help on this one.

I've done a clutch change over on my TF in preperation for MMX however things have gone bad :tired:

Here's what I've gone to do:

Swap my old extremely worn out stock clutch over with an exedy 240mm HD unit
The kit included the pressure plate and new release bearing which I've also installed

Here's the problem:

Got everything back together on Sunday night, and it starts and runs fine however I can't select any gears, the gear shifter won't even go in to each gate which contains the respective gear.

I turned it off and run through the gears while it was off, noticed that they're pretty hard to get in to, even with the car off. With the car off I tried getting in to reverse and it's impossible to get in to. With the car on and clutch pedal flat to the floor the only gear I can try and force it in to is 3rd but then it grinds. The clutch pedal feel is VERY light until it gets down to the floor, where it then feels like its actually starting to disengaging the clutch.

Diagnostics so far:

Well, I've had the flywheel refaced and had an extra lip machined in as provisioning for the bigger clutch. Had to machine a step into the inside of the wheel (as pictured)

Checked the shifter cables, both are fine and are connected around the right way
Played around with the free play adjustment bolt on the clutch pedal, doesn't change anything, this just changes where the pedal sits
Taken clutch slave cylinder and pushed the opposite way to make sure the release bearing is engaged, it is.
Put the slave cylinder back on and got someone to stamp on the clutch pedal while I looked through the inspection hole, it seems to be pulling the pewaauew plate fingers back fine
Ran some extra brake fluid through the system just in case there was some air (unlikely), but this didn't help either

What does everyone think?

I don't think that the clutch is fully disengaging, I think this because when pressing the clutch pedal there's no resistance until it gets really close to the floor.. so only then is it starting to disengage the clutch. This explains why I can't get any gears. However, like I said it seems to be pulling the pressure plate fingers back when I look through the inspection hole. But maybe it's not pulling them back far enough..

Why is it doing this?

Slave cylinder worn? Master cylinder worn? Not pulling the clutch away from the flywheel (is this even possible since the release bearing seems to be connected fine to the spring that sits in the middle of the pressure plate fingers)? Suggestions?

How has it even been working then? (theory)

Maybe my old worn clutch was so light it was able to disengage it fine. Being worn and all, the pickup point was so high, so maybe a worn slave/master cylinder didn't have to work so hard to disengage the worn clutch. However, what makes this even more of a brain killer is that the pushrod on the TE only pushes as far as the one in the TF.. and the TE works fine with its HD clutch..

Here are some pics. And yes I installed the clutch with the raised side facing the pressure plate, flatest side was against the flywheel.

http://www.joshuaburford.com/clutch change/IMG_20101002_115602.jpg
http://www.joshuaburford.com/clutch change/IMG_20101002_115608.jpg
http://www.joshuaburford.com/clutch change/IMG_20101002_132928.jpg
http://www.joshuaburford.com/clutch change/IMG_20101002_132939.jpg
http://www.joshuaburford.com/clutch change/IMG_20101002_133002.jpg
http://www.joshuaburford.com/clutch change/IMG_20101002_155859.jpg

If I don't get this fixed by Sunday for the track day, I'm going to seriously hurt myself.

P.S. Could this be bypassed with a longer pushrod for the slave cylinder? :}

it is likely that your clutch is not disegaging.
this could be from a couple of things:

1: clutch pack springs are hanging up (touching, and grabbing) on the inside of the flywheel. you need to spin the clutch plate aroundd to have the ofset of the prings facing into the prsseure plate (ofset away from motor)

you obviously need to remove the gearbox if this is the issue.

many people say that reversing the clutch plate is bad,
i had this happen to me (worked it out staight away, was lucky enough not to have the gearbox on). that was 90,000k's ago, and the clutch has been used pretty hard. it still feels like new, and never smells etc etc. (keep in mind the oem clutch was changed at 160,000, and felt like poo for about 30,000 before it went slip.)

2: incorrectily adjusted clutch pedal

3: clutch fluid needs a bleed
EDIT: it is likely that it is not selecting gears because the clutch isnt disengaging. to check if this is the case, try to select a gear with the motor off, then try to select a gear with the motor on. if it selects with the motor off, and not when on, it means that your clutch os hanging up on something.

Hi Mate,

A bunch of us from WA are getting into adelaide on Friday... we have a fairly lax day on Saturday how bout we come round to help you sort it out?


or you could ask Mal if he can help you out


belltos advice seems sound to me.. i'd go for bleeding the clutch first.

Trent

(EDIT: if it helps i did the clutch on my car, so been there :) .. call 0415 924 736

This happened to my car while Mal was doing the MC. The slave cylinder was leaking and pushed the release point to the absolute floor. Is the Slave cylinder piston pushing the fork right in?

he said that the slave cylindar moves the same amount as the one on his te. so i guess that can be ruled out if it is true...

Bellto:

The spring packs are on the pressure plate side (although I'm starting to doubt myself now). And when I was getting the extra lip machined into the flywheel they gave it enough clearance for me to install the clutch either way.

I've tried adjusting the clutch pedal free play, it doesn't effect the point at which the clutch starts picking up. So I don't think that's going to help me

Gears are hard-ish to get in to with the car off, impossible with the car running.

Ran some extra clutch fluid through it but this didn't seem to help

Lathiat:

Sounds great to me. I've been speaking to Mal about this and he's going to try and help out but I can understand that he's a busy busy man. Anyone is welcome to come over and help out with the car, I really don't want to take the gearbox off again.. it's such a pain. LOL

Life:

This is what I thought it might be until I compared it to the TE, and that's why it's such a brain buster.

I'm trying to get tomorrow off work at this stage so I can go to Eddy's and get a bunch of parts, including another clutch slave cylinder to try out.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, keep them coming. Any help on Friday/Saturday would be welcome :)

PS. Bellto, glad your clutch still feels new after that many KMs. I'm looking forward to that feeling again because I put up with it being soft for a while now.

if your clutch plate is an excedy hd clutch, it is 99 percent chance that it is totally ofset to one side. not half ofset to both sides like the oem. if you didnt put the ofset in the press plate, this could be your problem.

yeah they are a great little clutch. mine really takes a pounding, and doesnt ever slip
(my mate had it in 3rd on a launch once because he is used to a sloppy commo box, it just stalled from 3500 rpm.)

also, stupid question, did you engage the throwout bearing?

oh yeah, i just read the last part of your post, i had to make a longer rod for my slave cylindar to, it must be something to do with the 3.0L models (is yours 3.0l?)

anyway, here it is..... (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70229&page=5&highlight=clutch+problems)

Yes it's a 3.0 litre gearbox, 3.5 motor though.. long story :P

Offset to one side? :|

Yes, throwout bearing is engaged. Checked through the inspection hole

FYI I'm running a 3.5L engine, 3.0L box, 380 slave, and 230mm HD clutch and no extension was needed, nor have I ever heard of one being needed. I compared the piston on the slave to my spare slave (3.0L) and it looks to be the same throughout.

Hmmm, 380 slave cylinder. Sound like a good investment :P
I don't care if I have to bleed it again, I'm just running out of things to try before taking the gearbox off again.. which I don't want to do :P

I'm hoping that the slave cylinder is just being lazy by a few mellimeters, and that getting another one will give it enough force to pull the heavier clutch out.

Actually I was having some funny issues with my clutch too and i replaced the slave cylinder to try clear them up.. we should be able to test.. the extra pressure from the exedy may have made it give up the ghost?

I'm hoping that's the problem, because that's easy enough for me to replace/fix. Taking the gearbox off again is just going to kill me. I'm a bit physically and mentally exhausted at the moment :(

excedy clutch packs can be fully ofset to one side, ie, the springs hang out on one side, but are flush with the friction material on the other side.

Ahhh, ok. The spring pack is on the pressure plate side. As advised by Mal. After talking to Mal about it, I even recalled taking the old one out and seeing the little mitsi logo on the genuine one which was facing out. The mitsi logo is on the spring pack side, so that re-assured me that I put it in the right way.

I've sourced a NEW slave cylinder, but I haven't been able to get the day off tomorrow which is a bummer. The reason why I'm getting hold of a new one is that I couldn't get hold of a second hand one, I tried EVERYWHERE.

Now.. the place that I found the part from... and you guys are going to love this... it's by chance the place that bought all the old clearance warehouse stuff, I double checked this, and they're open on Saturday!!! :D

When i put an HD excedy clutch in my magna the gears were very hard to get it i had to force it in and it would crunch but after a couple days it was normal its just the wearing in process of these clutches. But i dont know if this is your problem.

Nah, can't get it in to gears at all except 3rd gear then it grinds badly, when it's running. Can only just barely get it in to gears when it's off.

Would loosening the pressure plate bolts a few NM fix this issue? Is this bad? Has anyone tried this before?

no, that wont fix the problem.

if your slave cylindar is moving the same amount as your te, then i dont see the hydraulics being the problem.

Hmmm, I'm willing to try it anyone. I don't care about money at this stage, not to mention the new slave cylinder is pretty cheap. It feels like the clutch is a few millimeters from being disengaged so even if I brand new one helps it a little bit. Not only that but I was only using my eye to measure how much it moved :P

Hey mate - you fre saturday? Chris (380FTW) and I are still keen to come check it out.

upload a pic of the slave cylinder and the position of the fork lever in both normal and with the pedal depressed all the way.

I used the 240mm HD excedy clutch on my VR4, went in and worked no problems. i did take the slave cylinder out at the same time and got it resleeved...

couple of the VR4 guys have had troubles with slave cylinders after changing the clutch, thats why just got mine done when i had the flywheel in to get machined.

Also, have you tried adjusting your pedal? mine was completely out of wack coming from the old clutch to this one and had troubles with engaging gears until i adjusted it.

if the fork is loose then the bearing is not clipped in. if it's firm and you cant easily move it, i'd personal say it's clipped in no worries... it's either in or not is what i found.

Hmm seems like a strange issue your having with ya car Josh.

The xtreme extra HD clutch that i put in my car caused no issues with the slave cylinder or anything, it also didnt really change the pedal effort much either despite it having a 1650kg clamp loading (stock is around 700kgs).
The main problem i have is the crappy "button" ceramic clutch disc.... its not very stop start traffic friendly but damn its postive when your doing quick changes, quick launches etc

although not a 3rd gen,ive been converting my 2g verada to manual and i just wanted to clarify that the bigger stickout spring side of the clutch plate goes to the outside of the clutch assembly? Closer to the gear box then the engine? Its a excedy HD but is a push type unlike your pull type

After reading everything in this thread, my money is still on clutch bleed. Its trivial, and if you are proficcient, its easy to do, which is why i suggest giving that another slog. Its one thing that unless done 100 percent, gives you very similar/same problems you are experiencing.

Hey mate - you fre saturday? Chris (380FTW) and I are still keen to come check it out.

Yep, free on Saturday unless I manage to fix it tonight. Have been working full time on this car to get it ready but it's getting mighty close now!


upload a pic of the slave cylinder and the position of the fork lever in both normal and with the pedal depressed all the way.

I used the 240mm HD excedy clutch on my VR4, went in and worked no problems. i did take the slave cylinder out at the same time and got it resleeved...

couple of the VR4 guys have had troubles with slave cylinders after changing the clutch, thats why just got mine done when i had the flywheel in to get machined.

Also, have you tried adjusting your pedal? mine was completely out of wack coming from the old clutch to this one and had troubles with engaging gears until i adjusted it.

if the fork is loose then the bearing is not clipped in. if it's firm and you cant easily move it, i'd personal say it's clipped in no worries... it's either in or not is what i found.

Ok, I'll try get pics this afternoon. I'll also bleed the whole system, not just a little bit.

I've tried adjusting this pedal bolt, as far as I can tell it only changes the pedal height, unless there's some other secret bolt we're talking about? :P

The bearing is clipped in, I spent a short amount of time trying to get the old bearing disengaged so I know what it looks like when it's engaged. I also took the clutch slave cylinder off and pulled the folk the opposite way and it goes up against the pressure plate fingers, it's engaged.



Hmm seems like a strange issue your having with ya car Josh.

The xtreme extra HD clutch that i put in my car caused no issues with the slave cylinder or anything, it also didnt really change the pedal effort much either despite it having a 1650kg clamp loading (stock is around 700kgs).
The main problem i have is the crappy "button" ceramic clutch disc.... its not very stop start traffic friendly but damn its postive when your doing quick changes, quick launches etc

I'm hoping mine will be like that, I'm really hoping against it being the master cylinder being worn out or something. I've read up on this and it's said to be unlikely-a-fault, all general clutch problems im reading on the net appear to be more a slave cylinder issue.



although not a 3rd gen,ive been converting my 2g verada to manual and i just wanted to clarify that the bigger stickout spring side of the clutch plate goes to the outside of the clutch assembly? Closer to the gear box then the engine? Its a excedy HD but is a push type unlike your pull type

After reading everything in this thread, my money is still on clutch bleed. Its trivial, and if you are proficcient, its easy to do, which is why i suggest giving that another slog. Its one thing that unless done 100 percent, gives you very similar/same problems you are experiencing.

Yep I'll be giving it a full system bleed this afternoon/night.

And yes the spring pack sits towards the pressure plate/gearbox side. The flattest side should sit against the flywheel.

Hi mate,
You sent me a sms to say is fixed, from what I am reading above you were using the pedal height adjuster and not the rod which is also adjustable, I assume you have now found that rod bolt adjuster and all is good now?

Hi mate,
You sent me a sms to say is fixed, from what I am reading above you were using the pedal height adjuster and not the rod which is also adjustable, I assume you have now found that rod bolt adjuster and all is good now?

Yep found the adjuster bolt on the rod. The valve (if that's what you call it) was closed up on the slave cylinder, this made it push a bit further when I openness it up, and the adjustment bolt fixed it the rest of the way (allowed it to slot into gears).

Such a relief too have it working. It's as you were saying Jason, it doesn't feel heavy at all, it's drivable! Clutch feel is awesome! Grab and response is awesome aswell.

Thanks all for your suggestions and concerns. Mal, you're a legend. I wish I could put a tap on that brain of yours :P

Will be doing some final touches tomorrow then MMX on Sunday! :D

Howto release thrust bearing URL:
http://www.exedy.com.au/user_uploaded_files/pdfs/tech-notes/Tech%20Note%20Y.pdf