Hey guys i know this question has probally been asked a billon times but i couldnt find what i am after.

My 3L TE has had a ticking noise ever since i bought it about 15-20Thou K's ago, but recently the ticking noise has gotten louder.

Now the car has about 325xxxk's on it and im using 20W-50 Semi Syn.

This Sunday i am going to lift my rear rocker cover off (might do the front aswell) is there anyway by visual inspection that i can tell whether a lifter/tappet (are they the same thing?) needs replacing?

I will probally ask more questions later but would like to get a basic understanding first.

Thanks
Luke.

The most common cause for the adjusters to fail is the rocker rails and rocker bleed holes get blocked

it is fine to get new lash adjusters but if you dont want them to start ticking very quickly then you need to ensure that the rails are taken apart and properly cleaned including the adjuster bleed holes

When you check them, check to see if any when you press them are loose, these will be the noisy ones

The most common cause for the adjusters to fail is the rocker rails and rocker bleed holes get blocked
it is fine to get new lash adjusters but if you dont want them to start ticking very quickly then you need to ensure that the rails are taken apart and properly cleaned including the adjuster bleed holes
When you check them, check to see if any when you press them are loose, these will be the noisy ones

Are the bleeder holes on the rail? If so can i just stick something like a pipe cleaner through them while its still in the head?

Also what are lash adjusters?

lash adjusters are lifters if i am correct?

I have the same problem on a TR Magna and i have found a Lifter Cleaner which you run through the car with fresh oil, will this help at all? And do I need to do a complete oil change or can i just put it in with fresh oil on a top up (my old oil is burnt but not gritty) - Ariel

lash adjusters are lifters if i am correct?

I have the same problem on a TR Magna and i have found a Lifter Cleaner which you run through the car with fresh oil, will this help at all? And do I need to do a complete oil change or can i just put it in with fresh oil on a top up (my old oil is burnt but not gritty) - Ariel

Hard to say, i need to try some before i go pulling the motor apart.

It has helped alot of people but in some cases it may not have an affect, but for less than $10 you cant go wrong.

Hard to say, i need to try some before i go pulling the motor apart.

Well I'll give it a go, - $10 is alot in my household :P especially if it needs $80 worth of clean oil to go with it! Lol!

Can someone please tell an uninformed female (me :P) If i NEED to do a COMPLETE oil change when putting this lifter cleaner in or can i just do a top up of 1ltr and add it to that - As said before the oil i am running is about 6 months old, burnt but not sludgy and gritty.

Thankyou for your advice, I dont know much about these cars and being female doesn't help! (I hijacked my Uncles Account and Computer :) -with prior permission!

The lifter cleaner or engine flush is added to the old oil and then the engine is run for 10 mins or so (read the instructions). My opinion only, but I wouldn't be using $80 oil in an old engine - I'd use just about any 'cheap' oil. You also say the old oil is "burnt but not sludgy and gritty"....it will not be burnt - the burnt appearance is from suspended carbon particles and other combustion byproducts that are trapped in the oil and is completely normal.

The lifter cleaner or engine flush is added to the old oil and then the engine is run for 10 mins or so (read the instructions). My opinion only, but I wouldn't be using $80 oil in an old engine - I'd use just about any 'cheap' oil. You also say the old oil is "burnt but not sludgy and gritty"....it will not be burnt - the burnt appearance is from suspended carbon particles and other combustion byproducts that are trapped in the oil and is completely normal.

Sorry dude are you saying old engine needs less protection then new one? So its ok to use synthetic when engine is new but then switch to cheap oil when its getting old & requires even more protection from wear??????????

I mean really???????

In regards to oil flush (or lifter cleaner), add it right before you change your oil, let car idle for about 15-20min. It nothing magical all it does is makes your oil really thin thus liquefying sluggish oil deposits. Its only $10 *which is nothing compared to other service items), so do it every time you change oil.

To Ariel (aka Allan),
Oil Flush and "Lifter Clear" products have their fans and detractors too. As stated already the idea behind them is to thin the oil or introduce some kind of solvent action into the oil, with the aim of dissolving varnish and dislodging deposits - which you then have to trust your oil filter to catch adequately. If there is a build-up of sludge, varnish, or carbon deposits blocking passages and stopping the tappets operating correctly - you are hoping that a "rinse" in these oil additives will dissolve the gunk and flush it away in the oil.

These products are only introduced to your engine immediately prior to an oil change because this "clean up" effect diminishes the oil's usual function - lubrication. For this reason, the car is usally just idled, and definately not driven hard, while the additive is in the oil. You then have to get as much of the old oil and whatever traces of the additive out of the engine, even more so than a "usual" oil change.
Whatever flush additive remains in the engine will degrade the new oil to some extent.

I'm not a big fan of these additives, but was tempted to try "lifter free" once when a car had sat for a while and obviously had tappets lose oil pressure when I started it and it sounded like a tractor until the lifters pumped-up again (they are like a little reservoir, hopefully they fill with oil enough to take the rattle out of the valve train and then should seal and hold most of that oil when the engine isn't runnning). I bought a bottle and then car came good again before I had a chance to add it, and subsequent oil changes have kept it OK. My bottle is still in the boot a year or more later.

Check out "car bibles" site and 'the engine oil bible' - and maybe search old threads in here if you want to know more. Lots of folk use engine flush without problems, some have had problems (big ones) that may have been blamed on the flush stuff. Just follow the instructions to the letter if you give it a go.

Sorry dude are you saying old engine needs less protection then new one? So its ok to use synthetic when engine is new but then switch to cheap oil when its getting old & requires even more protection from wear??????????

I mean really???????

In regards to oil flush (or lifter cleaner), add it right before you change your oil, let car idle for about 15-20min. It nothing magical all it does is makes your oil really thin thus liquefying sluggish oil deposits. Its only $10 *which is nothing compared to other service items), so do it every time you change oil.

If you wish to use Mobil1 synthetic on an old truck motor like a 2.6L Sure....go for it....I'd be sticking to a 20w50 like GTX2 or similar and at $20 something a bottle, why would you spend money on better oil? In the space of 30 years between older and newer engines technology and requirements change. when the astron 4 cyl was made I dont think synthetic would of been as readily available as it is now...

So yes, Old engines need less protection then new ones.

;1341434']If you wish to use Mobil1 synthetic on an old truck motor like a 2.6L Sure....go for it....I'd be sticking to a 20w50 like GTX2 or similar and at $20 something a bottle, why would you spend money on better oil? In the space of 30 years between older and newer engines technology and requirements change. when the astron 4 cyl was made I dont think synthetic would of been as readily available as it is now...

So yes, Old engines need less protection then new ones.


We are not talking about 2.6l truck engine or 30 year old engine. Conversation is about 6g72/74 24v which some of them ares still 5 years old.

Hey nothing wrong with using $20 oil. The comment was if you engine is old as in done many ks you should switch to cheap oil.

GTX 2 is fine in the 2.6 and 3.0 12 valve engines, been using it for years. lol Got some in the 3.5 24 valve engine but I will change it to 10W-30 soon. Mobil 1 is good too, in any engine, but the temptation to leave it in for a long time due to the cost got to me and I don't use it anymore. Better to change the oil on a regular basis and get rid of combustion byproducts.

Engine flush - it can work well, but some people (including me) find it makes oil leaks from the engine appear (or at least get worse) and stay away from it. But by all means try it.

The best solution for rattly tappets is to remove, clean, identify and replace collapsed tappets, and clean out the oil feeds to them. Guaranteed to work, the engine will purr like a new one.

The best solution for rattly tappets is to remove, clean, identify and replace collapsed tappets, and clean out the oil feeds to them. Guaranteed to work, the engine will purr like a new one.

Slap me if I'm a total n00b here, but can this be done without removing the camshaft? My recently-acquired TL magna has one noisy lifter on the front cylinder bank which taps inconsistently, sometimes it taps and sometimes it doesn't.

Slap me if I'm a total n00b here, but can this be done without removing the camshaft? My recently-acquired TL magna has one noisy lifter on the front cylinder bank which taps inconsistently, sometimes it taps and sometimes it doesn't.

Sure can, if you want to drop in, quite often with the newer cars a good quality engine flush and lifter treatment after will fix, if not is not a hard job to do on the front bank anyway

Also, as far as Oils go, I do not use anything but Penrite, thus why I purchase 205l drums of it here, I have had customers here on these forums who have been using Castrol and other oils, they have then had issues with lifters or valve stem smoke and a good flush and Penrite has in most cases elimated most of these issues

The Nulon "Lifter Free and Tune up" says you should leave it in until the next service, this wont degrade the oil too much will it?

The Nulon "Lifter Free and Tune up" says you should leave it in until the next service, this wont degrade the oil too much will it?

If you want to, I can send over some of the proper workshop grade Wynns engine flush and Tune-Up for the lifters. THis is designed to be left in from change to change. TWW will attest to this stuff, while he we here for a service, his lifters were a bit ticky, we used the flush and could hear most of the tick dissapear while the flush was in, while doing the injector clean with the new oil in the car with the Tune-Up the rest of the tick dissapeared all together

The 2 are $30 for the pair

Sure can, if you want to drop in, quite often with the newer cars a good quality engine flush and lifter treatment after will fix, if not is not a hard job to do on the front bank anyway

Also, as far as Oils go, I do not use anything but Penrite, thus why I purchase 205l drums of it here, I have had customers here on these forums who have been using Castrol and other oils, they have then had issues with lifters or valve stem smoke and a good flush and Penrite has in most cases elimated most of these issues

Yeah actually I left a message on your voicemail today - about an injector clean primarily. Would be happy to drop the car round and get the injector clean, engine flush and lifter treatment. Surely I'd need to book in for that and leave the car with you for a day? I'm only a 30 minute drive away down Eastlink, work from home a lot and have flexible hours so I can pretty much get there whenever you're free.

Seems like I live in the right town to have bought a Magna as a second car; one of the guys from work with a TJ immediately gave me your name when I said I bought a TL. That's some good word of mouth advertising. :)

Ok back on topic, i might try some Penrite 20w-50 even though i really dont like the stuff.

Is there a tech doco or anything on what to look for once the rocker covers are off? also how to replace them?

Because the tapping is getting much much louder.

Also im thinking the ticking is actually coming from the rear cover as opposed to the front one.

I took this photo about a week ago of it.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5738/dsc00106z.jpg
By peaandham (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/peaandham) at 2010-11-27

Dont suppose anything looks out of order? Also if anyone could use the pic as a guide of what to look for that would be great.

Ok so found this

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64269&page=1

It helps a little, but i would still like to know a few things.

So the tappets/hla's that cause all this noise are what connect the rocker gear to the valve springs?
How do the tappets/hla's connect to the valve spring?
Also does just cleaning them work well or is it best to replace all of them?

This has been covered in this thread already

It can be lash adjusters however often the cause for the adjuster to be noisy and or worn is a blockage in the bleed hole

In the pic you will see at the top of each rocker a tiny hole, this is for the oil to bleed out of, you should, even on crank get a good squirt of oil from each rocker

Also im thinking the ticking is actually coming from the rear cover as opposed to the front one.

I took this photo about a week ago of it.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/5738/dsc00106z.jpg
By peaandham (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/peaandham) at 2010-11-27

Dont suppose anything looks out of order? Also if anyone could use the pic as a guide of what to look for that would be great.


Might be good for the OP for us to step back a bit at look at some terminology - I'll try to relate it to the pic above.

Cam runs down the middle - can hardly see it in this pic but its unmistakeable.

The lobes (lumps) on the cam act on the rockers when the camshaft turns. We can see 6 rockers in the pic, right? 3 act on the inlet valves, and 3 act on the exhaust valves.

We can see the valve springs easily, and we know that in the middle of each spring is a the valve stem, and down lower inside the spring is the valve stem seal pressed onto the valve guides, which are inset into/through the head.

Just for the record, we can see a lovely example of three plug-tube-seals (and I'll be saving this pic for later use if plug tube seals get discussed).

What is NOT seen in this pic is the "tappets" or HLA - hydraulic lash adjusters - themselves. The tappets are quite a compact component, they sit in a recess at the end of the rocker arms and its actually the tappets which contact the top of the valve stem, not the rocker arm directly. From the point of view of this pic, the tappets are UNDER the outside ends of the rocker arms, in that rounded bulge cast at the ends of the rocker arms.

Oil is supplied through those long tubes that the rockers swing on, the oil has a pathway out of those tubes, into a passage thru the rocker arms, and is supplied to pressurise the tappet. The tappet gets expanded (for want of a better word) and pressed onto the valve stem by the hydraulic pressure of the oil supply. This hydraulic oil pressure allows the rocker arm and the tappet it contains to have good close contact with the valve stem, but to have some "give" and also to be mostly self-adjusting - hence the name "hydraulic lash adjuster" (lash being the gap between the rocker arm and the top of the valve stem).

Hope this post of mine isn't over-simplified or patronising for the less-experienced, and isn't too wildly innaccurate in terminology or logic for the expert spanner-swingers amongst us. I just get an impression that "tappets" being such a small and relatively hidden component in our particular design of engines, that some gap of understanding was developing......

Hope that helps. Sorry its not concise - its been a busy night at work tonight and my brain is mushy now.

Your a champ Elwyn this has given me a great overview of the basics.

In the repair manual though it says i need to set the number one piston to the top of the cylinder or some crap like that. What does it mean and is it even needed?

Also do i have to replace all the HLA's at once or can i just replacing the ones that i believe are noisy?

So this is the way i would do it?

1) Rocker Cover Off
2) Undo all bolts on the rocker arms.
3) Pull the 2 arms out with the lifters.
4) Use multigrips, or something similar to pull the old Lash Adjusters out?
5) Sit new adjusters in oil
6) Use a pipe cleaner or wire to ensure the hole on top of the rocker is clear
7) Refit new adjusters (does the way i fit them matter? also do they need grease?)
8) Sit the arms and rockers back in the head and tighten in correct order

If someone can help me with those, by answering the questions or expanding on the steps that would be great thanks.

Bump for help. If i can do this, anyone should be able to, and i will make sure i take alot of pics along the way.

Step by step instructions with photos would be awesome as I need to do the same thing soon :)

Step by step instructions with photos would be awesome as I need to do the same thing soon :)

Well if i can get some more detailed info i plan to do it with alot of photos.

OK well i have studying up on this a bit more and i have found the HLA's should just pull out easy enough and if not just use some pliers?

As for refitting is there a certain way i need to fit these?

I've done this job before on a sec gen and it's really quite easy, but the hardest part is removing and installing the camshaft without the HLA's falling out, anyone any tips on how they do this part.

The "official" retainers, "U" shaped spring steel retainers are unavailable, I've tried. I was going to use masking tape, or electrical tape (try those) to hold them in the rockers but instead as the heads were off the car I simply assembled the lifters into the rockers and then onto the heads with it all upside down, before turning over quickly.
Definitely no pliers needed, they will slide out under their own weight. They go back in only one way.
You really need to read up on the procedure to test and/or fill new lifters, "sitting them in oil" won't fill them, they need to be pumped to fill them. Manual recommends diesel fuel for cleaning and filling. Otherwise they will clatter for ages. Procedure in the manual and several threads here.

Thanks Madmax, since then i have had a bit more of a read and your right it does say that they need to be submerged in oil and pumped until there is no travel left.

Does this mean that i submerge both the rocker and the HLA in a bucket of oil and keep pushing the HLA into the rocker arm until travel stops?

Whats the easy way to do this should i remove the rocker from the arm and put it in the bucket?

Also wouldnt the easier way to remove the HLA's and not drop them be to gently lift the rocker up while its still in the motor and then pull the HLA out then remove the arms?

Edit: Also if i do just the rear bank i only need 12 HLA's correct?

The HLA's are primed individually, out of the rocker arm. The instructions in Workshop Manual about cleaning etc are very specific (3 tins of deisel etc), and they make it clear that you work on one tappet at a time - doing the pumping action until the tappet is filled with fluid (diesel or oil). Just the tiny tappet, not the arms. The primed tappets are then assembled into the arms and onto the head.

Do you plan to replace every tappet, or just check and replace any which can't be resurrected by cleaning, or that won't hold pressure even after cleaning? Remember Mal's advice too - the oil supply to tappets also needs careful cleaning, no point having loose sludge or deposits gumming-up your new tappets!

RTFM

Don't use engine oil to clean and fill the HLAs, you need to use something much thinner like diesel fuel. Tried engine oil on 12 new 3.0L HLAs, they still rattled for a while when started. Light oil like sewing machine oil might do it, but you need about 1L. The liquid needs to get in, and the air needs to come out when you pump them. A very slow process with oil. lol

To remove, wrap them with masking tape to the rockers (good clean first) and and lift the whole rocker off. Trying to pull them out individually while keeping the others from sliding out is difficult, I would imagine.

RTFM

The HLA's are primed individually, out of the rocker arm. The instructions in Workshop Manual about cleaning etc are very specific (3 tins of deisel etc), and they make it clear that you work on one tappet at a time - doing the pumping action until the tappet is filled with fluid (diesel or oil). Just the tiny tappet, not the arms. The primed tappets are then assembled into the arms and onto the head.

Do you plan to replace every tappet, or just check and replace any which can't be resurrected by cleaning, or that won't hold pressure even after cleaning? Remember Mal's advice too - the oil supply to tappets also needs careful cleaning, no point having loose sludge or deposits gumming-up your new tappets!

I was just thinking of getting 12 and doing all the ones in the rear bank at once.

Ok here is where i am confused, do the Little Hyrdolic Lash Adjusters pump into themselves? (before firing remember i have never seem or touched a HLA) So i can put them into a 1L or a can of diesel or something similar and just push onto each end, then when it stops moving its primed?

Also if i used Diesel wouldnt putting HLA's full of diesel into my head (which will have motor oil flowing through it) cause some issues?

Also for the oil supply on the 2 rocker arms how do i clean these? since the manual has nothing on them.

Google is your friend here.

http://www.ec21.com/co/k/koreagmb/upimg/6-1-1.gif

2 parts, sliding. Often the sliding part jams up. Ball needs to be pressed down gently with a needle as you pump it up and down while immersed upright in the diesel, to clean a dirty one. Diesel does no harm to engine oil, only a few drops in each.

When clean transfer to fresh diesel and repeat. You will see air bubbles come up. Repeat pumping until no air comes out. When it can't be compressed its full (with needle out) and working properly. Any old ones that still compress, reject - broken spring or ball not seating. Worth cleaning them first before you buy new ones, just to see how many clean up - some wont pump up solid, some may be seized beyond cleaning. If you want to dismantle a stuffed one, the cap retainer comes off easily, then you can pull the plunger out and look at the internal bits. lol

I replaced all 12 in a 3.0L 12 valve with new ones, only 2 of the originals could not be recycled. If you replace all of the rears clean them up and use them in the front bank, maybe.

To clean rockers - take them all off the shaft, soak rockers in diesel, maybe run diesel through the shaft?

Is there anything besides diesel that i can use? (eg: anything off the shelf from an auto shop)

I would rather not go to the effort of getting diesel from a servo if there is something easier. Also i dont feel right about putting 12 HLA's full of diesel in my oil.

When I changed all twelve HLA's in the Mother in Laws TR, I filled them with oil using a syringe with a small opening small enough to get inside the hole, then pumped till oil flowed out of the adjuster. I would do one at a time, fill, place back in, till all were done.
With the rails, after pulling them apart I used air in a can to clean out the oil holes and degreaser to clean the rest and thoroughly dried, reassembled, and placed back on the headthen carefully putting the HLA's in.
On start up, it did rattle heaps but thats because the rails had no oil, but after 30secs it went to whisper quiet. Still is, and I changed them last year.
And I use Penrite in my car and so does the MIL

I just picked up 12 Lash Adjusters for $8.40 Each, and they guy said i dont need to fill the Adjuster with Diesel nor oil as it will fill with oil when i start the car. He said he was a mechanic for 10 years and that is the way he has always done it.

ok then. Be prepared for 20 minutes of rattly engine though. lol Worth a try I suppose.

ok then. Be prepared for 20 minutes of rattly engine though. lol Worth a try I suppose.

Well he said it might be rattly until the oil gets into them, so i dont really see the problem.

Also setting the number one cylinder? The haynes manual says something about doing this before you tackle the adjusters, its no necessary is it?

It's not hard to set #1 to TDC, so why not do it?
Haynes manuals are based on a complete rebuild, if memory serves, and skipping steps is something I personally wouldn't do.

Because i didnt know how to do it.

Also i have already done the tappets, and didnt set it.

Sorry to revive an old thread but I thought I would share my recent ticking lash adjuster advice.

I have a TJ Ralliart with 95000 km. I recently changed the oil to a fully synthetic Shell in 5W30 (factory fill viscosity range). I know "thin" oils are shunned in Australia but I thought Mitsubishi thought this was OK in Adelaide in summer with temps up to 43 degrees (lots of Magnas sold locally). The engine soon developed lash adjuster tick (quite loud) when sitting overnight and then on a warm day after work would tick loudly on started to go home. Firstly only lasting a few seconds then up to a couple of minutes. The engine is pristine inside with no varnish or sludge to speak off (judging by the condition under the rocker covers and sump). They are obviously bleeding down with the thin oil, simply because of wear not because of blockages or varnish etc.

I changed the oil to Penrite HPR 10W50 yesterday and the problem is gone. 5W30 is probably OK on a newish engine but not with 100000km of wear......

Just my experience

An update. No noise on starting even after the car sits for 24 hours. The engine is MUCH quieter. The Shell 5W30 was obviously way too thin for the car. So far thumbs up for the Penrite.

Steve