hey guys as u know im a new owner of a supercharged ralliart that i bought of a forma owner on hear ken shadow got it dynoed yesterday and it just didnt seem wat i expected i thought i would get more i dunno but would like some of ur coments
this is wat i got

194.2 hp
was running rich up in the 14
7 psi

So round 144kws.. It does seem a bit low but in the grand scheme of things dyno runs mean nothing at all..
So many things to take into consideration, how hot was the day? What mode was the dyno in? The operator do it right? Correct gear to do it? And the list goes on..

Wouldn't bother about those figures man I'd say the best way to measure power/performance is to run it down the 1/4 mile..

Is it an auto?

Doesnt seem right at all. Many N/A 3rd gens and even my TR make more then that.

hey guys as u know im a new owner of a supercharged ralliart that i bought of a forma owner on hear ken shadow got it dynoed yesterday and it just didnt seem wat i expected i thought i would get more i dunno but would like some of ur coments
this is wat i got

194.2 hp
was running rich up in the 14
7 psi

What do you mean the 14?
if you mean 14AFR, thats running dangerously lean for an FI motor.

Yeah thats really low for a FI motor.. regardless of the 7psi

I got mine dynoed at 188hp atw with my stock 3.5 in back in Janruary.. and yeah.. that was when it was stock.

Maybe it's an auto and it needs tuning?

Yeah that does seem a bit low given that mine is making that with a 95 re-tune.. but yeah also remember it's auto so you are losing a bit there but as well. Anyone know what the auto losses are?

I guess the real question / thing to do is speak to the other sprintex guys on the forums and see what they are getting.

Also it may need a tune perhaps, but, you need to get someone to do it properly and be aware of the Sprintex's tune how it (a) pulls out timing as the intake temperature rises for safety and (b) has the 7th fuel injector for both cooloing and a bit of extra fuel

You could try asking sprintex about it but i'm not sure theyd be that helpful in honesty.

hey guys as u know im a new owner of a supercharged ralliart that i bought of a forma owner on hear ken shadow got it dynoed yesterday and it just didnt seem wat i expected i thought i would get more i dunno but would like some of ur coments
this is wat i got

194.2 hp
was running rich up in the 14
7 psi

Being an auto you will lose more power through the drivetrain compared to the manual cars, but even so, that figure does seem low. But as has been said, all dynos are different, and if it was a hot day, then that would explain a lot.


Yeah thats really low for a FI motor.. regardless of the 7psi

I got mine dynoed at 188hp atw with my stock 3.5 in back in Janruary.. and yeah.. that was when it was stock.

Maybe it's an auto and it needs tuning?

188hpatw on a stock Magna? No chance in hell mate. My Ralliart when it was stock made 170hpatw, and so did 2 other Ralliarts at a QMD dyno day a few years back. Even with extractors, exhaust, intake and an Interceptor my Ralliart made 195hpatw. Something is WAY off with your dyno reading mate.

It wasn't done on Steve Knight's dyno by any chance was it?

It wasn't done on Steve Knight's dyno by any chance was it?

And if it was done on Steve's dyno is there an issue there??

188HP is only 140ish Kw from a Manual is not all that hard to believe, may be out a little but no that much

I think you are getting Kw and HP mixed up as if your evo is only getting 170 HP then you must have your handbrake still on, even with drive train loss this is only in the area of 126kw, not much off a STD AWD atw, your own signature even states 260KWATW which is 348HPATW

And if it was done on Steve's dyno is there an issue there??

188HP is only 140ish Kw from a Manual is not all that hard to believe, may be out a little but no that much

I think you are getting Kw and HP mixed up as if your evo is only getting 170 HP then you must have your handbrake still on, even with drive train loss this is only in the area of 126kw, not much off a STD AWD atw, your own signature even states 260KWATW which is 348HPATW

I'll pretend you didn't even type this, as even for you, this is simply incomprehensible.

140kwatw is FAR too high for a standard 3rd gen Magna. Usually they're around 120-130 at MOST. Steve Knights dyno is known to read exceptionally high.

I'll pretend you didn't even type this, as even for you, this is simply incomprehensible.

140kwatw is FAR too high for a standard 3rd gen Magna. Usually they're around 120-130 at MOST. Steve Knights dyno is known to read exceptionally high.

Really, by you? Is that because you have the most powerful Evo in the Universe and others are getting better power figures than you thus the dyno is wrong, I thought so

So what you are telling me is that a BRAND new 3.5, running #6 cams, through a Manual can not get that figure standard, I agree 140 is a little high but is not far from that with a tune bud.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out that a/ you mixed up HP and KW and b/ that your evo is not the fastest one out there. I will publish a public appology in all of the local new papers to show that I was wrong

Really, by you? Is that because you have the most powerful Evo in the Universe and others are getting better power figures than you thus the dyno is wrong, I thought so

So what you are telling me is that a BRAND new 3.5, running #6 cams, through a Manual can not get that figure standard, I agree 140 is a little high but is not far from that with a tune bud.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out that a/ you mixed up HP and KW and b/ that your evo is not the fastest one out there. I will publish a public appology in all of the local new papers to show that I was wrong

:bowrofl: You might want to go and re-read my post where I was quoting power figures.

It's ok to eat humblie pie. :)

Edit: I vote epic thread lulz. :bowrofl:

Yes, you are right, you did not mention your Evo so humble pie eaten there but then about the claim about Steve's dyno, unless you care to show some evedence there perhaps you also need to do the same.....Steve has done a lot of good things for members cars and until you have personally been there as I have then you may need to stop bad mouthing others work and equipment

I watched Steve set it up, he was very specific about setting the right gear ratios and stuff in to his computer as he cares about outputting accurate power figures :)

Not sure on the exact year of the motor but it's a brand new stock motor with the #6 cams (late TJ revision). Mal saw it while it was in my shed ready to go in :)

Only difference from mine and stock was a rear lukey muffler at the time (I said stock 3.5, not stock car altogether).

Yes, you are right, you did not mention your Evo so humble pie eaten there but then about the claim about Steve's dyno, unless you care to show some evedence there perhaps you also need to do the same.....Steve has done a lot of good things for members cars and until you have personally been there as I have then you may need to stop bad mouthing others work and equipment


If you guys are happy that a stock 3.5L Magna will put out near on for 190hpatw, then that's fine. I don't, and I believe the dyno used reads high. That is my opinion based on this Magna's output, and also Jasons VRX Evo X, which put out 251kwatw on Steve's dyno (with exhaust and tune), when every other Evo X on the Evo forums puts out 215-225kwatw with the same mods, on varying dynos across Australia. I've also spoken to TMR about this, and they agreed the figure was very inflated, and that the stock Evo X turbo simply doesn't have the flow to support such a power figure.

So again, IMO and from my own research, that specific dyno seems to read high. You can agree with me or disagree with me, but that is my opinion forged from the research I have done.

Richard - where did you get it dynoed? If you want we can go down and do a run together and then you can get a precise comparison side by side which you can then compare to my figure from SKR.

Also you do realise right that dynos are generally designed to adjust for changes in temperature, humidity, etc.? I realise that alot of them, esp the varying type scan read differently.. but you shouldn't have 10-20kW out of 150kW disappear because of a hot day IMHO? Also many other factors can influence the readings such as tyre size, if someone has had a car run up on a non standard tyre OD can effect side by side comparisons etc.. I hear stories about SKR alot but no real actual figures to say any which way.

*hands tissue box*

Do you guys even know where Steve Knight came from or where his dyno came from?

Of course they both do, both the tall horse and the expert here, come on Neo, you know that 99% of australia will be wrong and the other few will be right.

Again, is just a matter opinion and little fact, seems to be a theme around the AMC forums in recent times

Oh, for the record I know of at least 3 cars which have been in SKR dyno and then later on other dyno's and had the same figures, so it seems that the reading is only correct if certain experts are present, sad really

Oh, and dont fall off that horse mate, the height is very elevated as are the SKR Dyno figures apparently

He had it done at Hyperdrive. When Mike ran his there he pulled almost 180hp from memory, which is less than it should have got as well IMO. I think the dyno is reading a bit low, the car needs a service, add that to the auto trans and its not too far off.

Really should run the car at Kwinana to see how the car drives, as in the end a bit of paper is not worth a whole lot.

Being an auto you will lose more power through the drivetrain compared to the manual cars, but even so, that figure does seem low. But as has been said, all dynos are different, and if it was a hot day, then that would explain a lot.



188hpatw on a stock Magna? No chance in hell mate. My Ralliart when it was stock made 170hpatw, and so did 2 other Ralliarts at a QMD dyno day a few years back. Even with extractors, exhaust, intake and an Interceptor my Ralliart made 195hpatw. Something is WAY off with your dyno reading mate.

It wasn't done on Steve Knight's dyno by any chance was it?

i fail to see how this made people get sooky.. 140 kw at the wheels from a 155 kw motor is overly brilliant though. thats a loss of 10% which means i want his drive train right now.

how much fuel is the car using? and check that your cat hasnt colapsed. if its running to rich (not by the figures you quoted though) you can melt your cat.

i fail to see how this made people get sooky.. 140 kw at the wheels from a 155 kw motor is overly brilliant though. thats a loss of 10% which means i want his drive train right now.

how much fuel is the car using? and check that your cat hasnt colapsed. if its running to rich (not by the figures you quoted though) you can melt your cat.

He's actually running a 3.5L with number 6 cams and a free flowing exhaust, if we are quoting factory figures that would be equivalent to a sports/vrx @ 163.

At the end of the day though, kw figures mean jack, it's how the power gets put down and 1/4 times, pieces of paper only measure a cars e-penis.

He's actually running a 3.5L with number 6 cams and a free flowing exhaust, if we are quoting factory figures that would be equivalent to a sports/vrx @ 163.

At the end of the day though, kw figures mean jack, it's how the power gets put down and 1/4 times, pieces of paper only measure a cars e-penis.

Thankyou for quoting the correct figure for me, and yes you're right. Tyres and suspension let you use the power that you have.

Now, mine was dyno tuned aswell you have to remember. So 140kw atw should be the best that you can get out of a standard VRX, or any 3.5 with a muffler change over. Hoping for about 170kw or there abouts on my next 3.5 build with some minor mods :)

Thankyou for quoting the correct figure for me, and yes you're right. Tyres and suspension let you use the power that you have.

Now, mine was dyno tuned aswell you have to remember. So 140kw atw should be the best that you can get out of a standard VRX, or any 3.5 with a muffler change over. Hoping for about 170kw or there abouts on my next 3.5 build with some minor mods :)

At the start mate, you said it was a stock 3.5L. Big difference between a stock 3.5L and one with a muffler and a 98 ron tune. 188hpatw with muffler and 98 ron tune is much more believeable.

At the start mate, you said it was a stock 3.5L. Big difference between a stock 3.5L and one with a muffler and a 98 ron tune. 188hpatw with muffler and 98 ron tune is much more believeable.

Yep, stock 3.5 motor as I said, which I said was dynoed (forgot to mentioned tuned, but isnt that a given these days when it's available to anyone). Why would I suggest getting it tuned otherwise? :P

At the start mate, you said it was a stock 3.5L. Big difference between a stock 3.5L and one with a muffler and a 98 ron tune. 188hpatw with muffler and 98 ron tune is much more believeable.

Seems someone also failed to read

The engine is stock as NEO stated

He did not mention anything else about the car and was not asked either

sound like a dyno issue , most of the dynos in vic are all different , my evo has ( 135kw ) 188hp at the wheels

Crap, maybe my comment wasn't up to your standards :)

Surely you can tell the difference between stock motor and modified motor, question mark?

So the engine is stock, but the ECU and muffler have been modified. I see where I've gone wrong. I should of assumed the ECU was edited and the muffler was also changed for a free flowing one, but the motor was left stock. My bad man.

:offtopic: much? little surprised it's been allowed to go this far. Can we get back to the issue?

A ralliart engine should have 180kw at the fly. Accounting for 20% drivetrain loss (no idea here but that seems a generous figure by most standards) that put's it in the 144kw/193hp ATW ballpark. That's supposed to be N/A.

Quoted figure for FI sound's a bit weird to me. Isn't that the original issue here?

Different dynos give different results. Design, age, roller slip, climatic conditions all have an influence.

I can't get too obsessed with dyno Kw figures. My first car had 30 Kw (flywheel) and ran around nicely.

Enough said.

Yeah thats really low for a FI motor.. regardless of the 7psi

I got mine dynoed at 188hp atw with my stock 3.5 in back in Janruary.. and yeah.. that was when it was stock.

Maybe it's an auto and it needs tuning?


Sorry stock or tuned, im confused... because stock generally means stock, and tuned generally means tuned. It may have stock internal components, but it has been re-tuned/flash tuned/fiddled with/SKR Enhanced or whatever else you want to call it. Having a car dyno'd (As stated above) means you measured its power output, this no way implies that it has been tuned or not.

Sorry to say guys, but someone (unfortunately for you all it was Brett lol) called bullshit, you all tried to defend it, and thedic... member who posted the garbage in the the beginning gave up the truth in the end which proved all of your "its technically stock" comments to be bullshit :bowrofl: ****ing owned.

I <3 AMC :)

Yeah thats really low for a FI motor.. regardless of the 7psi

I got mine dynoed at 188hp atw with my stock 3.5 in back in Janruary.. and yeah.. that was when it was stock.

Maybe it's an auto and it needs tuning?

I don't see where it says here that just the engine is stock, man. You said, "when it was stock" Are we supposed to assume "it" is the engine, or the car? If "it" is the engine, then how can the power be measured at the wheels as you state with "atw"?


Sorry stock or tuned, im confused... because stock generally means stock, and tuned generally means tuned. It may have stock internal components, but it has been re-tuned/flash tuned/fiddled with/SKR Enhanced or whatever else you want to call it. Having a car dyno'd (As stated above) means you measured its power output, this no way implies that it has been tuned or not.

Sorry to say guys, but someone (unfortunately for you all it was Brett lol) called bullshit, you all tried to defend it, and thedic... member who posted the garbage in the the beginning gave up the truth in the end which proved all of your "its technically stock" comments to be bullshit :bowrofl: ****ing owned.

I <3 AMC :)

It's stock, but tuned. So the engine is stock, but the ECU and the muffler have been edited. Evidently we were supposed to assume this. So, in essence, my Evo is stock, it's just been modified.

Boy you guys really have nothing better to do hey :P


I don't see where it says here that just the engine is stock, man. You said, "when it was stock" Are we supposed to assume "it" is the engine, or the car? If "it" is the engine, then how can the power be measured at the wheels as you state with "atw"?

You really are trying to go deep in to technicals now arent you?


I got mine dynoed at 188hp atw with my stock 3.5 in back in Janruary.. and yeah.. that was when it was stock.

I made the mistake of assuming we were talking about getting power out of engines when we first started, so I thought I would share what I got out of a "stock 3.5", read carefully... again... stock 3.5........ what if I said..... stock... magna? That wouldn't be correct now would it?

I was simply saying what you can get out of a stock 3.5. The ralliart on the other hand, has so many more modifications than mine as standard. But no, you guys have to twist it every other way, I really don't get it. It was relative to the topic until everyone started bagging it out and calling bullshit, which has just gone and destroyed the thread.



It's stock, but tuned. So the engine is stock, but the ECU and the muffler have been edited. Evidently we were supposed to assume this. So, in essence, my Evo is stock, it's just been modified.

http://www.evolutionoz.net/forums/index.php

Just go man... :P :gtfo:

This has been entertaining...

Stock Ralliarts should get between 128 & 134kW atw auto or manuel. Which is about 174ish at the fly. Although the specs say 180, it's a little known fact amongst those in the know that its actually around 174.
Realistically wogboy, you should be getting more with FI, so there may be some tuning issues etc that may be hindering the performance of your car.

You need a tuner who knows what hes doing, someone who will be able to extract everything outa the beast to its true potential. Find someone who you can trust to get it right. It may just be the tune mate.

There is only one N/A Ralliart that I know of that runs higher than 155kW atw and that's Jases' (TZABOY's). It's around 170ish from memory. When you look at the extent of work done to his engine through a rebuild etc you can see the work is evidence to the power gain figures over a stock Ralliart. I did everything i could have to mine without an extensive engine rebuild (bar a manuel conversion.)

Shrouding of the valves are another slight engine mod of a Ralliart over any stock 3.5 magna, so even with the no 7 cams, upgraded exhaust and a tune you'll always come a little short of a Ralliart engine.
I know too well of how easy someone can spike a dyno chart, and I'll always be skeptical of figures that sit too far outside of the modifications done... kick ass tune or not.

My suggestion would be to look at getting it tuned. 14.0 AFR is too bloody low and your putting your engine at risk running it at that. My Ralliart was at 13.0 AFR and i was advise to never go more than that. Get the tuning issues sorted out and we should expect to see figures of 175-185kW atw with a Sprintex Supercharger as a realistic dyno figure.

Boy you guys really have nothing better to do hey :P



You really are trying to go deep in to technicals now arent you?



I made the mistake of assuming we were talking about getting power out of engines when we first started, so I thought I would share what I got out of a "stock 3.5", read carefully... again... stock 3.5........ what if I said..... stock... magna? That wouldn't be correct now would it?

I was simply saying what you can get out of a stock 3.5. The ralliart on the other hand, has so many more modifications than mine as standard. But no, you guys have to twist it every other way, I really don't get it. It was relative to the topic until everyone started bagging it out and calling bullshit, which has just gone and destroyed the thread.




http://www.evolutionoz.net/forums/index.php

Just go man... :P :gtfo:

I'm just trying to understand why you'd say your car is stock, but only mean the engine, and then assume everyone is supposed to know that you only mean your engine. When we measure power, we generally measure it on a rolling dyno, which measures power at the wheels, not at the engine. If you were talking about a stock 3.5L engine on an engine dyno, and it was stock, then I could understand. That's where the confusion lied. Your car isn't stock. You have a stock engine, but you have an ECU mod and a changed rear muffler which gives you higher than stock power figures. I understand where you're coming from, saying that "with a stock engine, but with other parts modified, I got this power" Confusion ensued.

Hopefully that's sorted out now.

Ezz: Auto and manual will not read the same on the dyno mate. The automatic gearboxes lose much more power through the drivetrain than the manual gearboxes.

I totally agree Disciple, they do loose a little more power through the drivetrain. What i was saying is that the power output stock (auto or manual) is between the range described in my last post. It seems from everyone who has had their Ralliarts dyno'd achieved between 127kW and 134kW atw. Mine was an auto and it achieved a 134 atw, more than some manual's have achieved stock. I further discovered she was a good engine as she ran 14.80 flat in a quarter mile stock. I even had a few runs with VRXkids manual VR-X and smashed him every time... he'll tell you too as he was keen to go whenever he saw me.
*(I DO NOT CONDONE ILLEGAL DRAG RACING OR HOONING.)*

Once i got all the work done she produced 154.3kW atw and that was all i could squeeze outa her without going into massive re-building etc such as Jase (TZABOY) has done.

But i agree with your comment, sorry i should have explained it differently.

I totally agree Disciple, they do loose a little more power through the drivetrain. What i was saying is that the power output stock (auto or manual) is between the range described in my last post. It seems from everyone who has had their Ralliarts dyno'd achieved between 127kW and 134kW atw. Mine was an auto and it achieved a 134 atw, more than some manual's have achieved stock. I further discovered she was a good engine as she ran 14.80 flat in a quarter mile stock. I even had a few runs with VRXkids manual VR-X and smashed him every time... he'll tell you too as he was keen to go whenever he saw me.
*(I DO NOT CONDONE ILLEGAL DRAG RACING OR HOONING.)* (I am merely talking about situations of the past mods.)

Once i got all the work done she produced 154.3kW atw and that was all i could squeeze outa her without going into massive re-building etc such as Jase (TZABOY) has done.

But i agree with your comment, sorry i should have explained it differently.

Ah, yeah. Sounds pretty realistic. 14.8 for an auto Ralliart stock is impressive. My manual Ralliart ran 15.1 stock, and 14.7 modified. A lot of that is down to the driver though. :P

I'm just trying to understand why you'd say your car is stock, but only mean the engine, and then assume everyone is supposed to know that you only mean your engine. When we measure power, we generally measure it on a rolling dyno, which measures power at the wheels, not at the engine. If you were talking about a stock 3.5L engine on an engine dyno, and it was stock, then I could understand. That's where the confusion lied. Your car isn't stock. You have a stock engine, but you have an ECU mod and a changed rear muffler which gives you higher than stock power figures. I understand where you're coming from, saying that "with a stock engine, but with other parts modified, I got this power" Confusion ensued.

Hopefully that's sorted out now.

Ezz: Auto and manual will not read the same on the dyno mate. The automatic gearboxes lose much more power through the drivetrain than the manual gearboxes.

Still can't get it through hey? I said stock 3.5, I never said the car. After it had been questioned I said it had been tuned and had a muffler change over. Simple, get over it.. sheeeesh

I simply said what you can get out of a stock 3.5.. And again after that I said stock 3.5 motor, and you still can't get it through "dot dot dot"

Still can't get it through hey? I said stock 3.5, I never said the car. After it had been questioned I said it had been tuned and had a muffler change over. Simple, get over it.. sheeeesh

I simply said what you can get out of a stock 3.5.. And again after that I said stock 3.5 motor, and you still can't get it through "dot dot dot"

But it wasnt stock, it was tuned. A 3.5L can't function without an ecu attached to it, and the ecu was far from stock. Therefore, the motor was not stock. It was "tuned". The stock power figure would be the figure you got before the ecu tune.

Neo, totally understand what your saying mate but you need to realize that it's not all in stock form as in cams, ecu & exhaust etc. (understand that the engine has no work other than no.6 cams and an ecu tune to 98 Ron.)
It's like me saying my former Ralliart was a stock 3.5 producing 154kW atw.
It's not entirely accurate as although the engine was not re-worked the car isn't running in 'stock' form its running form is 'modified'. To be a little silly here even a K&N panel filter is a modification. It's not about the gains here as many people go out and get bigger throttle bodies as a mod to an N/A car which adds nothing to in terms of power increases.
Just best to stick with 'modded' (if car is modified in any way) or 'stock' (completely untouched mechanically/unmodified). This should stop any confusion. :thumbsup:

Agree that Dyno's are nothing to go buy, unless you are running it as strict as say a V8 racing team under a very controlled environment.

If you took it to another dyno I would say you will get a very different result.

Geez mate, don't you know anything!

Stock is modified. But if it's modified then it's stock, so being stock is actually being modified, but only if it was stock to begin with, which would actually mean it was modified.

Having said that, that has nothing to do with the original posters car, and is related to something different all together!

The original car is a Ralliart, that is supercharged, and is automatic, and put out 194hpatw (144kwatw) which, everyone can agree on, seems kinda low, but as was also agreed on, all dynos are different and we can't lay too much trust in the figures they produce, but rather take the car down the quarter mile for a more accurate "power" reading.

Thank god you cleared this up lol

Right you twits .................... Ive moved this to Tech Torque so no more spam OK

Are we all missing the Supercharged infront of the ralliart bit. That is way underpowered for a s/c engine.

Does it feel a shitload quicker than your average ralliart, it should.

This thread is fantastic, the levels of maturity from some is simply outstanding!

Why are people so caught up with the kilowatt figures anyway? I'm presuming its what, a Sprintex setup? There's a few members past and present who haven't achieved much more than this (talking 150-160atw) on the standard boost, so whilst it is a little low, its not really anything a decent tune couldn't sort out. Shouldn't we be focusing on things like the power band and torque more anyway? Those are the sorts of things that are going to make it pull much harder than a stock (or modified, or whatever it is you guys are arguing over) N/A equivalent model pulling a similar atw kw figure. A peak kilowatt/horsepower figure doesn't really tell you much at the end of the day.

I managed to get 14.8 out of a stock sports, surely the ralliart had more in it then that?

Ah, yeah. Sounds pretty realistic. 14.8 for an auto Ralliart stock is impressive. My manual Ralliart ran 15.1 stock, and 14.7 modified. A lot of that is down to the driver though. :P

I managed to get 14.8 out of a stock sports, surely the ralliart had more in it then that?

Driver/conditions - either way it's all around the same target.....there's only 0.3 difference between both "stock" times.

I managed to get 14.8 out of a stock sports, surely the ralliart had more in it then that?

I think that comes down to the driver, and just how hard you are prepared to rape your car lol

haha i rather the wording "driven passionitally"

haha i rather the wording "driven passionitally"

I prefer, "mechanical sympathy" Hence why I've never broken anything on a car I've owned from abusive driving, :P.

I prefer, "mechanical sympathy" Hence why I've never broken anything on a car I've owned from abusive driving, :P.

Neither have I.... yet :bowrofl: Almost broken plents of times, but never finished it off lol

I managed to get 14.8 out of a stock sports, surely the ralliart had more in it then that?

yeh i ran a 14.5 with my totally stock (aka the way it rolled off the production line) manual ralliart...